Is HES staying intro level? 2 stats on a single buff seems OP. However, it's the first spell in the inspiration line, so it'd be weird to be basic, and even weirder to be intermediate when it's a prereq for basic level spells.
BRHODES
DR-ARMIFER
Re: HES/courage rewrite
09/30/2019 05:46 PM CDT
>>Is HES staying intro level? 2 stats on a single buff seems OP. However, it's the first spell in the inspiration line, so it'd be weird to be basic, and even weirder to be intermediate when it's a prereq for basic level spells.
Two stats on a buff is pretty normal, and at least one ability goes to three.
Yes, it's staying an Intro spell. I contemplated swapping Courage and HES around in the order but that would've made a bit of a mess of some things.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Two stats on a buff is pretty normal, and at least one ability goes to three.
Yes, it's staying an Intro spell. I contemplated swapping Courage and HES around in the order but that would've made a bit of a mess of some things.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
BRHODES
Re: HES/courage rewrite
09/30/2019 07:02 PM CDT
Yeah but like... zero intro spells buff one stat. Now this intro spell buffs 2 stats? For the entire group? For a magic tert guild? For a non-signature spell?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: HES/courage rewrite
09/30/2019 07:08 PM CDT
Yup. I could be convinced to make it signature, I suppose.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
Re: HES/courage rewrite
09/30/2019 07:24 PM CDT
> Yeah but like... zero intro spells buff one stat. Now this intro spell buffs 2 stats? For the entire group? For a magic tert guild?
Basic vs Intro aren't all that different in practice, especially since you have access to the AP spells for training purposes.
> Yup. I could be convinced to make it signature, I suppose.
Can we vote on this? I'd rather it remain accessible than be limited.
Basic vs Intro aren't all that different in practice, especially since you have access to the AP spells for training purposes.
> Yup. I could be convinced to make it signature, I suppose.
Can we vote on this? I'd rather it remain accessible than be limited.
LCAMP2
Re: HES/courage rewrite
09/30/2019 09:05 PM CDT
<<Yeah but like... zero intro spells buff one stat. Now this intro spell buffs 2 stats?
Rangers have See the Wind, which buffs all ranged weapon skills. There are also several Intro spells with more than 2 non-buffing effects.
<<For a non-signature spell?
I'll respond to this by starting with a quote from someone's post.
>>Basic vs Intro aren't all that different in practice
Especially for those not of the spell's guild in which case Intro spells are Basic spells. If a Warrior Mage is casting Heroic Strength, for example, it is all calculated using Basic difficulties and mana costs. There are multiple Basic spells with more than a single effect, so that's not anything different for the vast majority of players. Examples include Aura Sight, Auspice, Aggressive Stance, Blur, Butcher's Eye (signature), Finesse, Hands of Lirisa, Kura-Silma (signature), etc. The only difference would be that Paladins specifically get access to an Intro spell, with that difficulty and mana cost, that buffs 2 stats and is not without precedent. I'm more than okay with that.
<<For the entire group?
As for it affecting the entire group, since that's what Paladins are supposed to be better at on average than other guilds I'm fine with giving them an Intro AoE buff. They can't have it affect the whole room until they have at least 200 ranks in Augmentation skill anyway and the other guild with an AoE focus, Bard, has several AoE Intro spells right from the get-go too. One of which isn't even cyclic.
BRHODES
Re: HES/courage rewrite
10/03/2019 05:11 AM CDT
Intro spells are special because enough sorcery allows for you to cast them safely regardless of your native mana type (except for necromancers with holy) You can say an intro spell is the same as a basic spell all you want but it doesn't make it true. So... I'm fine with the change -- it means bards, MMs, traders, and rangers just got a 2 stat buff that fills a gap in their kit. Rangers can use CHS without issue now because this is more or less BES. That said, this is absolutely, one hundred percent without precedent. Buffing stats isn't the same as buffing skills. Even if it were, as I stated in my original post, all of the 2+ stat buffing spells are intermediate or advanced with the exception of finesse. I would just like to see some consistency. There doesn't appear to be a standard.
All I'm really saying here is I hope this spell is setting a precedent and we see new stuff for everyone, especially overpowered stuff like this.
LCAMP2
Re: HES/courage rewrite
10/03/2019 05:50 AM CDT
<<You can say an intro spell is the same as a basic spell all you want but it doesn't make it true.
But it is true.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:Signature_Spells_-_03/06/2013_-_10:36
"Intro spells (Which act as if they're basic to non guild members anyhow)"
Heroic Strength is Intro for Paladins, Basic for Clerics, and Basic with additional sorcery implications for all other guilds.
But it is true.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:Signature_Spells_-_03/06/2013_-_10:36
"Intro spells (Which act as if they're basic to non guild members anyhow)"
Heroic Strength is Intro for Paladins, Basic for Clerics, and Basic with additional sorcery implications for all other guilds.
SHIFT3
Re: HES/courage rewrite
10/03/2019 02:13 PM CDT
> I see that HES was changed as of today to also be basic for non-guild members
Intermediate, not basic.
BRHODES
Re: HES/courage rewrite
10/03/2019 04:10 PM CDT
>"Intro spells (Which act as if they're basic to non guild members anyhow)"
It is categorically NOT true. In fact, this is the exception rather than the rule. The sweeping majority of intro spells do not go up to basic difficulty when cast by non-guild members. Refresh is one spell that goes up difficulty when cast by non-guild members, and I see that HES was changed as of today to also be intermediate for non-guild members. Yesterday using it as sorcery it discerned as 0-400, which is an intro spell.
So with these changes HES remains entirely unprecedented, both with its merits as an intro spell, as well as its difficulty increase when cast by non-guild members. Zero spells in game increase by more than one difficulty level when cast by non-guild members.
It is categorically NOT true. In fact, this is the exception rather than the rule. The sweeping majority of intro spells do not go up to basic difficulty when cast by non-guild members. Refresh is one spell that goes up difficulty when cast by non-guild members, and I see that HES was changed as of today to also be intermediate for non-guild members. Yesterday using it as sorcery it discerned as 0-400, which is an intro spell.
So with these changes HES remains entirely unprecedented, both with its merits as an intro spell, as well as its difficulty increase when cast by non-guild members. Zero spells in game increase by more than one difficulty level when cast by non-guild members.
