Neat - I do enjoy your writing style for lore posts.
Samsaren
ASHAMAN1
2DUMBARSE
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 09:06 AM CST
Me too. I always have so many more questions after I read them than when I started. I guess that's the point, ha!
The concept is great and totally separates paladins from clerics. My interpretation is when one joins the paladin guild, the guild does something akin to a cybernetic enhancement of the individual's spirit "organ." That gives us our brand of super powers but comes at a cost (organ pain commensurate with each infraction) because "with great power..." yadda yadda. That cost may or may not be imposed by guild and/or god. ("You can build super-soldiers with our technology, but they need to abide by Asimov's three laws.") If it's not imposed by them, then that raises deeper, perhaps natural questions. Anyway, the more connected the organ feels to the paladin or vice versa, the greater her power. Obvious positive/negative reinforcement notwithstanding, people are shaped to some degree by their environment, so while the organ influences the paladin she ultimately grows into her own person with ideals molded by all those things that make up her experience.
There are some ethical implications here. Are people okay with cybernetic enhancement, or are they blissfully ignorant since the guild presumably does lots of good? Moreover, there's a stark difference between calling down power from the gods and wielding one's own god-powers. I can see why the gods might not care... Cybernetic enhancement does not make one a cyborg, and a cybernetic organ can't do much without a host. Adversaries, however... I can imagine why they might want to get their hands on that patent.
This is all probably an over-simplification, but divinity and the soul are things which are hard for me to grasp. In any case, I look forward to seeing the story unfold further. Thank you and happy holidays to all.
The concept is great and totally separates paladins from clerics. My interpretation is when one joins the paladin guild, the guild does something akin to a cybernetic enhancement of the individual's spirit "organ." That gives us our brand of super powers but comes at a cost (organ pain commensurate with each infraction) because "with great power..." yadda yadda. That cost may or may not be imposed by guild and/or god. ("You can build super-soldiers with our technology, but they need to abide by Asimov's three laws.") If it's not imposed by them, then that raises deeper, perhaps natural questions. Anyway, the more connected the organ feels to the paladin or vice versa, the greater her power. Obvious positive/negative reinforcement notwithstanding, people are shaped to some degree by their environment, so while the organ influences the paladin she ultimately grows into her own person with ideals molded by all those things that make up her experience.
There are some ethical implications here. Are people okay with cybernetic enhancement, or are they blissfully ignorant since the guild presumably does lots of good? Moreover, there's a stark difference between calling down power from the gods and wielding one's own god-powers. I can see why the gods might not care... Cybernetic enhancement does not make one a cyborg, and a cybernetic organ can't do much without a host. Adversaries, however... I can imagine why they might want to get their hands on that patent.
This is all probably an over-simplification, but divinity and the soul are things which are hard for me to grasp. In any case, I look forward to seeing the story unfold further. Thank you and happy holidays to all.
JHALIASCLERIC
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 02:43 PM CST
Great read. Just for the sake of throwing an interpretation (and metaphor, because I do what I do) into the mix -
I absolutely love that everyone seems to 'do the thing Necros want to do better than Necros'.
I'm reading the Paladin requirements a bit like being handed a keyboard, and being told 'to play THE CHORD, hit C, E, and F# at the same time'. You can play other chords, but the only way to play THE CHORD is to hit C, E, and F#. Only when playing those three notes are you playing THE CHORD, and playing any other notes results in not-THE CHORD. Accordingly, Paladins have their souls jacked to 11, but the cost is they can only ever play C, E, and F# if they want their souls to remain at 11. A Paladin that decides to they need to play C, D, and G can do so, but that's no longer THE CHORD, and thus, dark/fallen Paladins.
And if they're really lucky, they can play those notes after death, for-ev-er (foooor-evvvv-errrrr). I hope to hear more about the Great Sacrifice.
DR-ARMIFER
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 03:12 PM CST
>>I absolutely love that everyone seems to 'do the thing Necros want to do better than Necros'.
I can see where there's simlarities, but the theosis of a Paladin and the the transcendental aims of a Necromancer, while they both have "divinity" as a method, are toward radically different ends.
A Paladin's theosis is one rather closer to the real-life concept. They gain holiness by becoming closer and closer to a divine ideal. A Paladin can choose how to appraoch the ideal, from wholesale acceptance to pragmatic distance, but it is the ideal and both their holiness and power comes from how closely the hew to it.
A Necromancer's transcendence isn't a theological concept, but is borne from Sartrean philosophy. They wish to become the person which is not an object; the being-in-itself. The master mover, the ultimate expression of freedom from contingency. In less moonspeak, they're about breaking chains and experiencing an impossible, unfettered freedom. They seek to do it, as Sartre argues we all long to, by becoming God.
A Necromancer would see a Paladin's theosis as at best a trap, at worst the complete opposite of what they're trying to do. A Paladin would see a Necromancer's transcendence as utterly profane and against human nature.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I can see where there's simlarities, but the theosis of a Paladin and the the transcendental aims of a Necromancer, while they both have "divinity" as a method, are toward radically different ends.
A Paladin's theosis is one rather closer to the real-life concept. They gain holiness by becoming closer and closer to a divine ideal. A Paladin can choose how to appraoch the ideal, from wholesale acceptance to pragmatic distance, but it is the ideal and both their holiness and power comes from how closely the hew to it.
A Necromancer's transcendence isn't a theological concept, but is borne from Sartrean philosophy. They wish to become the person which is not an object; the being-in-itself. The master mover, the ultimate expression of freedom from contingency. In less moonspeak, they're about breaking chains and experiencing an impossible, unfettered freedom. They seek to do it, as Sartre argues we all long to, by becoming God.
A Necromancer would see a Paladin's theosis as at best a trap, at worst the complete opposite of what they're trying to do. A Paladin would see a Necromancer's transcendence as utterly profane and against human nature.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JHALIASCLERIC
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 03:30 PM CST
I should have said "I absolutely love that everyone seems to 'do *some part of the thing* Necros want to do better than Necros'".
Necromancer doesn't want to (and couldn't!) play The Chord. Paladin doesn't want to not play The Chord. The similarity may end at 'results in something more than mortal', but across the guilds, not many can claim something like that in their wheelhouse. The divine status end goal is approached under very different conditions, and it sounds like the final product looks quite different, to different ends as well.
2DUMBARSE
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 03:51 PM CST
I feel like the soul sanctification process might be of interest to necromancers for various reasons. The Paladin Counsel clearly has some unique insight into the mind of God if it possesses the power to deify even if that power is limited in scope. It might lead to some interesting inter-guild RP that goes a step further than "I'm good and you're evil, so I need to do something about you," and "I need you out of my way because you're an obstacle to The Great Work."
SHIFT3
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:26 PM CST
Are you thinking of adding limiting factors for a paladin beyond what exists today?
By limiting factors, I'm referring to the necro and being smitten or the various outrages. The trader being unable to chain cast spells adnauseum with the wrong environmental conditions. The empath who is shocked.... etc.
I ask because I'm trying to read between the lines on where paladins are mechanically today and where you envision them being in the future.
DR-ARMIFER
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:33 PM CST
>>Are you thinking of adding limiting factors for a paladin beyond what exists today?
New limiting mechanisms? No.
Tweaking what's there? Yes. I've already stated I'd like to do a partial rollback of the PvP changes earlier this year and tie it into a Dark Paladin choice instead. I also am trying to formulate a number of different Dark and Light Paladin ethic options to choose from. The idea being you can take "ethical outs" to make the soul system easier to bear (at the cost of your ultimate soul potential) or take extra-strict ethical strictures to boost your soul's capacity. Or some combo of the two, maybe.
Soul system work is probably the third major project (after Smite and Glyphs), so we're still talking a few months down the pike.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
New limiting mechanisms? No.
Tweaking what's there? Yes. I've already stated I'd like to do a partial rollback of the PvP changes earlier this year and tie it into a Dark Paladin choice instead. I also am trying to formulate a number of different Dark and Light Paladin ethic options to choose from. The idea being you can take "ethical outs" to make the soul system easier to bear (at the cost of your ultimate soul potential) or take extra-strict ethical strictures to boost your soul's capacity. Or some combo of the two, maybe.
Soul system work is probably the third major project (after Smite and Glyphs), so we're still talking a few months down the pike.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:37 PM CST
So understanding that this is all up in the air, does this mean your envisioning a dark paladin having more restrictive access glyphs and soul abilities in exchange for no penalty from first strike or stealing? A light paladin would get more of those abilities but be penalized for those same actions? Something like the PvP or CvC player would almost always choose dark while the PvE player would always choose light?
DR-ARMIFER
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:42 PM CST
>>So understanding that this is all up in the air, does this mean your envisioning a dark paladin having more restrictive access glyphs and soul abilities in exchange for no penalty from first strike or stealing? A light paladin would get more of those abilities but be penalized for those same actions?
With the exception of one or two new spells I've envisioned but haven't proposed yet, I am not interested in hard-locking abilities to the ethical paths. It'd be more like restriction/expansion of the soul pool and soul state than that.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
With the exception of one or two new spells I've envisioned but haven't proposed yet, I am not interested in hard-locking abilities to the ethical paths. It'd be more like restriction/expansion of the soul pool and soul state than that.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
PRIMEQ
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:52 PM CST
Thank you, Armifer, for sharing this post. It's always great to read such detailed lore posts, even when they aren't about my own guild(s).
Of course, the post made me wonder many things. One of them was just why this deification process exists, and in particular why it is aligned to a very certain set of ethics. The main thought that occurred to me was that it is some kind of pact made by design of the Immortals. They wished to preserve some of Their humanoid creations and have recognized that civilization is important to their survival, for without it the humanoids devolve into chaotic in-fighting and brutal violence. Thus They created the Paladin, an altered soul with ethics intended to align with the preservation of Society. In this way the Immortals Themselves don't have to take much of an active hand and can leave the Paladins to guarding Their children.
- Navesi
Of course, the post made me wonder many things. One of them was just why this deification process exists, and in particular why it is aligned to a very certain set of ethics. The main thought that occurred to me was that it is some kind of pact made by design of the Immortals. They wished to preserve some of Their humanoid creations and have recognized that civilization is important to their survival, for without it the humanoids devolve into chaotic in-fighting and brutal violence. Thus They created the Paladin, an altered soul with ethics intended to align with the preservation of Society. In this way the Immortals Themselves don't have to take much of an active hand and can leave the Paladins to guarding Their children.
- Navesi
ASHAMAN1
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 04:58 PM CST
>>With the exception of one or two new spells I've envisioned but haven't proposed yet, I am not interested in hard-locking abilities to the ethical paths. It'd be more like restriction/expansion of the soul pool and soul state than that.
I have to admit, I like the idea of the more fluid approach to design. Giving people choices with solid, and thought out consequences adds depth beyond a "pick path A, or pick path B, one's rawr and other is shiny".
Samsaren
I have to admit, I like the idea of the more fluid approach to design. Giving people choices with solid, and thought out consequences adds depth beyond a "pick path A, or pick path B, one's rawr and other is shiny".
Samsaren
DR-JAVAC
RE:The Nature of Conviction and the Sanctified Soul
12/26/2017 07:28 PM CST
>no penalty from first strike
Just FYI, I removed the penalty for first strike in February.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
Just FYI, I removed the penalty for first strike in February.
Javac
That one guy
If you have questions or comments in regard to this post please email me at DR-JAVAC@play.net.
