Before I let Aspasia begin with her next lecture, I want to thank everyone for their generous words, and incitefull comments thus far. Everyone has been respectful and articulate in this ongoing series of lectures.

I must appologize for the delay of this last lecture, certain events have conspired to prevent Aspasia from being as prompt with her next speech as she would have liked. But here we go....

One last thing, this particular lecture walks a fine line on a subject that has proven to be quite "cantankerous" in the past. Just keep in mind this is from Aspasia's mouth.

>>Aspasia enters the grand meeting hall of the Crossing Paladin Guild.

>>A lull hushes over the crowd, as she ascends to the podium, thick stacks of parchment in hand.

>>Aspasia clears her throat. With a loud voice she begins her lecture, as the audience of fully armored paladins, prepares to listen.

Aspasia lectures "What most people share in the way of a basic idea of good is subjective and relative outside of absolutes. What is good? How would you define good? On the outside claiming to embrace good or ?light? seems reasonable and understood, but soon agreement fades when you realize "good" is strictly a relative term, and could mean practically anything without an absolute definition or standard for it. Until you define good, you still just have a relative statement. Let us consider some issues as we attempt to determine what good and light truly mean."

"The most difficult lesson I have had to learn was that to preserve peace you must be ready to make war. That the only way to protect the innocent was to slaughter those who would threaten them. Because the world was not perfect, could their be any true lasting peace and harmony? These concepts and questions helped to drive my particular philosophic and moral views."

"Watching the tragedies of life unfold around us and witnessing the suffering of people, the hideous irony of it all weighs deep upon my soul. To preserve life you must be willing to take it, definitively, and without remorse. It seems an unfair and horrible truth, but one which was unavoidably apparent in the wars I have witnessed. One side may have been right and one side may have been wrong, but lives were still shattered, families still grieved and children were left parentless. Because of the crimes of the unjust and wicked, blood must be spilt in the defense of the innocent. It is from these lessons that it?s difficult not to harbor deep loathing toward those who would disturb the peace, for their crimes bloody the hands of the righteous who are forced to interdict."

"So for a paladin peace is to be valued far above the price of rubies and diamonds. Those who call themselves ?dark? paladins find supposed contradictions in such sentiments. They believe that certain ?dark? acts and behaviors are necessary. Including war, even if one cannot morally justify it. It is in this philosophy that they defend veneration of the dark gods. I personally find no fault in agreeing that even dark gods can have people who worship them, priests who conduct their religious affairs, and religions designed to worship and forward their goals. However many paladins claim that each dark god should have his own sect of devoted paladins. This is a very disturbing trend of thought."

"Dark paladins tend to describe themselves as dark because they focus and represent things that are typically seen as unpleasant by most of society. That they are the undesirable necessities of a vulnerable people. My point is if you choose a path, that people tend to find unpleasant, you should expect people to find you...well, unpleasant."

"It is written down."

"Each Paladin throughout the ages has been a focus for the forces of Light against Darkness."

"A Paladin must ever be a shining example of courtesy and honor"

"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin"

"Thus was it written long ago, and that is the heritage Paladins assume in our ranks -- to act each moment as if they are the final shard of Light as Darkness closes in."

"If worshipping a god that advocates murder, torture, and theft is indeed dishonorable, then no amount of belief or strong conviction will change that reality. Simply allowing for strong feelings in the face of logical understanding really isn't a satisfying conclusion. If people could indeed change the reality of things simply by belief, then we would indeed live in a truly amazing world. Returning to an earlier example, if I sincerely believe that I am a large mug of Dwarven ale, will I be one? If I sincerely believe that the taffleberry tarts are hocks of meat, will they be meat? In that case I must be the 14th immortal. Perhaps you'd like to meet me--if nobody drinks me first."

"From my discussions with self proclaimed ?dark? paladins, many seemed to infer that the gods would rain fire from heaven if we dared refuse to honor "dark" paladins. What one should understand is that the gods, especially the darker ones, simply don't care that much about us, we have to earn their favor. The self professed ?dark? paladin seems to imply some sort of celestial importance and esteem for our guild that simply doesn?t exist. It is the height of arrogance to assume that the Immortals wait on pins and needles for us to follow them. Thinking, that assuming some gods are unworthy of following, will invoke their wrath, is really just an over simplified understanding of the Immortals themselves. Perhaps they have much more pressing concerns that the little peasant screaming at them from a cliff."

"Typically those who claim to be Dark usually revert to using examples and analogies to base the entirety of their position. This is usually the sign of an ill constructed ideology. Could you use murder to achieve positive ends? How about torture and theft? I guess it all depends on what you consider positive. Certain tyrants from Elanthia?s past felt they were using negative actions to justify a positive end. But in the end they?re justifications did little to prevent history from labeling them tyrants."

"Also what is it that makes an action positive if it harms others in the process? Is it really fair to pursue a negative and destructive action that harms others simply to bring about an end result you consider to be positive? I honestly do not feel that an honorable paladin would ever suggest the ends justify the means."

"Some will claim killing is an example of how something dark can be noble. Obviously this is a fantastic over simplification of the issue. Instead of finding vague parallels between actions we consider morally justifiable and actions we tend to consider evil. Most enlightened thinkers believe that some things can be justified, not because they are necessary evils, but because they are ontologically pure and noble acts."

"For instance I don't believe that killing itself is immoral or negative. Murder, the unjust slaying of innocent life, is immoral and negative, but not all killing is necessarily murder. We must be careful in our definitions and words. Words are the prime instrument of those who would corrupt the profession. You must define your terms; this is a must when you confront the wayward heretics."

"Another favorite tool of those who advocate the ?Dark? path is the use of all-inclusive concepts. One way is just as good as any other, one might say. Or all paths are equally right. While one may appreciate the inherent tolerance in that sentiment, it is a foolish and dangerous belief. Worshipping a god of murder, torture, and theft is dishonorable. If I am right, then those who follow the dark path have to be wrong. If those who follow the ?dark? path are right, then I have to be wrong. And simply saying that Dark paladins sincerely believe they?re right doesn?t solve the dilemma, because I sincerely believe I'm right as well. As you see it?s impossible for two completely opposing views to be resolved by claiming all paths are equal and true."

"Typically Dark paladins are usually on the intellectual defensive, especially when it comes to sources that defend and back up the views of Light. This is so, because they are virtually no Elanthian sources for them to reference for the defense of following a ?dark? path. Instead they attempt to use clever ?lawyering? and relative terminology to chip down the impenetrable wall that is the guild leader?s speech. In my opinion this speech is the most unassailable point of reference on the issue and a damning statement on the wrongness of following the ?dark? path."

"The Calling of the Paladin be of the most high and ancient origin. Long ago, when Men of all races strove against Chaos and Darkness, the Gods sent down grace and leadership unto those among us who were pure of heart and purpose. Those so chosen became shining beacons of leadership and courage to all around them. Each Paladin throughout the ages has been a focus for the forces of Light against Darkness."

"First thing I think we need to take note of is the fact that the paragraph is being spoken in a context of origin. Note the first sentence, it implies that this is the subject of the paragraph. Origins."

"Now if we understand that then we come to an understanding in regard to the rest of the excerpt. Yes their was moral purity before the gods bestowed blessings upon us. But this does not necessarily indicate paladins were before this. Of course in fairness, it doesn't necessarily say paladins did not exist prior to this either. But let's remember the context. Origins."

"A careful analyzation of this reference implies the creation of our guild happened sometime after the bestowment of gifts, our guild patron, Rutilor, probably organized the gifted into the Paladin's guild. There he gave us a purpose and calling and taught us the concept of honor, a manner of discipline and living which would serve as a basis for the path we were called to walk."

"Over the millennia the gifts have continued to be bestowed upon the next generation of paladins. No one can deny this is a sign that the guild still finds favor among the immortals, and that our role is valued by ALL 13. Light and Dark. Which raises the question if we are to follow a path of honor and virtue, forsaking darkness, why would the darker gods empower us? One reason I would offer is the fact that our guild is not built around the furtherance of religion. Therefore nullifying the necessity for the guild to represent the specific interests of each individual deity. Instead, I believe it is understood that our guild is built around a universal concern of all 13, the protection of Elanthia and the establishment of order."

"The honorable and virtuous gods see a need to instill value and honor into the world to prevent suffering. They likely realize such an undertaking would require a strong form of moral and just order. To this end they empower and bless the guild, knowing that the preservation of life, society, and virtue are of the utmost importance. If ever they would fail to pursue such "good", they would cease to be moral beings, at least in their own eyes."

"The ?dark? gods see a similar need to install order and form to the world. While they may personally see no harm in acts of theft, murder, or torture. They understand that permitting these actions on a global scale would be catastrophic to their goals. In that sense they themselves recognize the value of an honor code, and as long as they are not obligated to follow it, see no problem in enforcing it upon mortals. Because, after all, it serves the ends of the truly important, namely themselves."

"Could it be that immortals are actually flawed beings of immense power who do not dictate the universal laws of the universe? Could it be that even they do not exist beyond a commonly understood concept of right and wrong? But rather like mortals, are a part of these universal laws? In that sense it's possible that, indeed, the immortals follow a universal and transcendent understanding of right, and wrong, bad, and good, light and dark. Much like we mortals do."

"Perhaps even the common truths of right, wrong, Light and Dark, were not brought to our comprehension by the immortals or any other transcendent being. Rather perhaps they have merely been apprehended and deciphered over time from our understandings of the nature of sentient beings, our recognition of our short comings and differences among ourselves. So in a sense I say yes the Immortals should be subject to value judgment, but not by mere convenient interpretation, but by the same laws and rules which, are traditionally understood to be universal for all gods and mortals alike."

"A common misunderstanding by those who follow the ?dark? path resides in a hidden prejudice and bias against those who stand for virtue and honor. The typical arrogant perspective of the dark paladin, will insinuate that those who follow the path of light are obstinate, narrow-minded and heartless. They will use examples of children who steal for bread, and paladins who viciously crusade against goblins and other dark creatures. They will paint themselves as the introspective martyr who defends the misunderstood thief or the goblin who merely wishes to defend his homeland. Such examples are riddled with bias and straw-men."

"Dark paladins typically seem to imply the idea that so-called "light paladins", are incapable of dispensing mercy, but rather being completely "lawful", are trapped in a cruel system of rigid "legalism". This in itself creates an air of hypocrisy others like to use to affront those who follow the path of light. I contend it is unfair and preposterous to insist that only those who follow the dark path levy mercy, while light paladins "burn the infidel at the stake". While such actions may be lawful in certain provinces, I contend they are completely un-ethical in a universal sense."

"Simply because those who are LIGHT follow the strict and unbending ideals of good, does not imply that mercy isn't good itself. Many dark paladins seem to assume that being "merciful" means "bending" rules, and sense so-called dark paladins are "rule-benders" mercy is a trait that should be applied to only them, that is incorrect. If it is lawful for a paladin to be merciful, then what code has he broken showing mercy, so long as justice has been carried out? The dark paladin's solution for a dilemma involving a child stealing food presumptuously always winds up with the dark paladin giving the child food and forgiving him. This seems wholly adequate for someone who follows the path of light as well. The Dark Paladin made sure justice was satisfied by paying for the stolen item. I as what you would call a staunch "light" paladin would've done the same thing."

"Many paladins engaged in this discussion like to refer to the concept of evil. I prefer to avoid that term all together, it can be misleading and create unnecessary confusion. Does dark equal evil? I think the two concepts are fairly equivalent, however we must take note that the term evil does not exist in any known Elanthian reference. Therefore it may be wise to use other terms to express the concept of ?evil?. I find that if you define the term ?Darkness? appropriately it reaches a fair parallel to evil."

"What about the dark Immortals? Is it fair to say they are evil? Perhaps the darker Immortals are not evil in the manner in which they choose to define themselves. Anyone can easily discern that their can be multiple definitions and opinions as to what truly constitutes evil. Granted those who advocate harmful actions, believe that they are not evil or even that they are justified. I personally contend that this is not the case in truth. If their actions are truly malicious and harmful then they are evil, despite whether those who commit them choose to recognize the fact. Those actions should not be tolerated because they are evil in an objective and universal sense of norms. But to be fair and to avoid convoluting the discussion it?s best to eliminate any usage of the term ?evil?."

Aspasia says "Thank you all for attending, next weeks lecture will be On Honor, Ethics, and Deeds."

Aspasia dismisses the audience.


Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

I must be sitting beside you in the class Leucius.

Granyt Fyrforg

Ill commend her for the effort put forth, but they are long winded. My time is better spent actually in the game, then reading all the way thru the passages. I canmake it through about the first two or three paragraphs before AI realize its just old conflicts long since dead disguised in a speach...just doesnt do it for me.

Konnor


"This may be a Fantasy world, but it sure isnt UTOPIA." - Konnor

I've read through the whole lectures- before playing or while I have my characters hiding while draining their minds. It's not something you want to try if you're fidgetty, but I agree that the essays are well-written.

Ryeka


Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy

A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy

Folks,

Ahem.. Before we go there "again" lets simply not.

Reminder: This is not the conflicts folder.

Questions or comments - take it to e-mail, MOD-Annwyl@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Redryn@Play.net or Senior Board Monitor DR-Emony@Play.net.


MOD-Annwyl

They appear well written, but unfortunately I have to agree with Leucius and Granyt about the brain going blank after reading just a bit.


Shandarilli,
Paladin of Urrem'tier

<I get the impression that Brittany thought these "lectures" would be something ground-shattering for the Guild, proving herself right and infuriating all those who disagree with her. Instead, nobody seems to be bothering to read them. Isn't it ironic?>

Actually the majority of people have said they enjoyed reading her lectures. And in fairness it bears pointing out that she freely admitted her lectures would be opinionated and representing her views in the voice of her character. So accusing her of some kind of devious underhanded motive, is really unfair.

Instead of just beating the heck out of people who post their thoughts and ideas, how bout we be a bit more constructive instead? If you disagree, post a rebuttle. If not, show some common courtesy, don't go running your mouth when you don't have a point to make, be pleasant and treat others how you would like to be treated.

With that said, Kudos to Brittany. I am a big fan, but I feel her organized lectures were quite brilliant and insightfull even for her. I personally think they did do a big slam dunk on alot of the contentions and arguments about the guild. After all I have yet to see a rebuttle on an equivelent scale, or really of any kind of scale at all. Of course that dosn't stop people from throwing cheap shots....

Keep up the good work Brittany,

>Instead of just beating the heck out of people who post their thoughts and ideas, how bout we be a bit more constructive instead? If you disagree, post a rebuttle.

No. A rebuttle is just a forced non-conflicting way of going over the same Brittany hooey again in a different folder.

>If not, show some common courtesy, don't go running your mouth when you don't have a point to make, be pleasant and treat others how you would like to be treated.

Yes. Its much easier, in this case.

>After all I have yet to see a rebuttle on an equivelent scale, or really of any kind of scale at all.

You won't. Nobody wants to get drawn into the pissing olympics with Brittany again.

<<Anyway, I have to commend Brittany for putting forth the effort wether you enjoy what she has to say or not.>>

>>Funny how reasonable people (or people who don't have a beef with her) keep coming back to this point...

I got nothing against Brittany or the player of, yet I found that all the lectures were a great achievement of redundancy. Every few months we find ourselves in the receiving end of another trek down this well beaten path.

That doesn't mean that I didn't try to read these lectures. I read the first one, and skimmed through the second. Ignored the third and forth, and god forbid there's a 5th one, I'll probably not even read the discussion afterwards.

I must praise Brittany for couple of things though. I have never seen someone as stubborn to change a view as yourself. Props to you on loyalty to ideas. Also, I applaud your perseverance in writing 4 posts that were longwinded even for me. And last, but not least, I must commend you on your inovative conveyance of ideas. Great change of pace to make it an IC post.

Ecoles

Hello, couple of things to just quickly respond to. Perhaps my motives for posting this series isn't very clear. I understand the sentiment alot of you feel, beating the old dead horse again....

Whether you choose to beleive me or not, let me just emphasize the point that this was absolutely not my intention.

Firstly, they were not intended to piss people off. ::Glances in Drongo's general direction:: Instead they were intended to be frank, factual, and expressive, with a very deep concern for manners and protocol. In the past, I have engaged with the motive of iritating others, and positioning for a fight. But that simply isn't the case here. I would just ask those who disagree to point to a single portion of my posts, they felt was intended to anger them.

Secondly, while they adress alot of well-debated issues, that fact does not, neccesarily mean the subjects should be brushed under a rug and ignored. People who fear open discourse concern me. The right to express ideas and views should not be infringed or intimated by people who don't appreciate them or feel they've been discussed "too frequently". Who decides when a ligitimate on-topic subject is dead? The people who don't like it, and understand they have much more to gain by killing it, instead of engaging it and winning by knowledge and reason? This just dosn't seem right to me.

Thirdly, what's wrong with trying to prove you're right? It strikes me as extremely arrogant to insult and mock someone who attempts to do just that. Not to mention extremely closed-minded. Are we living in a world where no one dares attempt to explain or defend their view and opinion? And then, if we do, who are you to tell me I'm wrong for doing that?

Fourthly, let me share something I posted just before I put all the lectures up.

<<These memoirs and essays are summarized from my archived discussions with other Paladins, Priests, Rangers, and even Rogues, as the issues of religion, Light, Dark, honor, virtue and morality are particularly relevant to all the above mentioned guilds. It is my sincerest hope that this treatise will serve as a guide on your own personal road to truth and enlightenment; it is the completion of five years of thought, debate, insight and discussion. I trust it will provoke new ideas and encourage others to engage in the ongoing discussion about honor, virtue and issues of Light and Dark.>>

This basically sums up my reasons for composing and posting this series of lectures. Not to beat-up on people, not to piss people off. But to provide the strongest and most concise defense of a particular view about the guild, morallity, virtue and honor in relation to Elanthian paladins. To provide a definitive "lexicon" on the traditional views of Elanthian paladins. Indeed I went out of my way to edit them so that they would be much less offensive and in-your-face-ish.

The criticisms of certain others who claim my intentions were to offend and incite, merely demonstrate that they have not even tried to read them, breezed over them, looked for something to argue about, and tried to pick a fight over it. I would only ask for my last lecture that those who disagree, simply rebutt, politely, and not read more into them than is intended.

Thanks for your time,

Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)

Life is long
and time is fleeting.
Though our hearts beat stout and brave,
still like muffled drums are beating.
Funeral marches to the grave.

LONGFELLOW

Brittany,

When something has been argued to the point where everyone knows precisely how such an argument will go the next time it is brought up, it is officially not worth dealing with. We all know you think Paladins need to be perfect little brightly-shining candles in the night. Great. Awesome.

We don't need another 300-post thread in which you say that 150 times and are told that you are wrong 150 times. Is that understandable?

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

<<Ya know Drongol, you seriously need to tell us how you really feel. I dont think its healthy for you to hold back and bottle everything up.>>

Drongol's Player.

And, to be perfectly honest, this is not Conflicts, nor is the type of language I'm likely to use in a real-life rant suitable for a public-access message board. Besides, I've made it very clear in the past what side I lie on as far as the whole light-vs-dark issue works, and I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to repeat myself yet again.

Drongol's Player


PC also stands for "Paying Customer."

Actually your post was funny, and then Drongol's reply even funnier!

Hehehee.

Oh, and keeping to the topic... I love Urremtier?

ROWR!

Congrats on spending the time to write down and express your views. I'm sure alot of people will enjoy reading them and thinking on them.



I'm not one of them since this is a GAME.

<smile>


____________________________________________
It wont heal if you dont stop picking at it.