GONIFTHEEF
Re: gods and the paladin code
01/30/2004 05:32 PM CST
Having recently been poking around Shard and saw this posted in the guild down there as the "Paladin Code".
<p
~A Paladin is Holy~
He seeks to do that which pleases his god in all manners of the
Code, and knows that the purity of his soul has a profound impact
on the abilities the gods bless him with.
While it is not required that a Paladin worships Chadatru or Rutilor
above other gods, he ignores the wishes of the God of Justice at his
peril. Serving another god or gods is possible for a Paladin provided
that the path that he follows does not work against Good or Justice.
It is not appropriate for a Paladin to work toward the ends of a dark
aspect since the goals of such are not in keeping with what is Good
and Just.
~As decreed by the Paladin Council
<partial>
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
GONIFTHEEF
Re: gods and the paladin code
01/30/2004 05:34 PM CST
Now: most of this is pretty much appropriate and I have no problem seeing the rationale.
However, the very last statement of "not working towards the ends of a dark aspect", this I feel is stepping on the toes of the known worship, and the religious aspects of Elanthian Life.
Case in point, during the Asketis Ride event about a year or so ago, it was made painfully clear that the "main" deity is dependent upon BOth the light and dark aspects of that deity in order to function as a god. So therefore, in that respect, both aspects must somehow be appeased in the manner of ones worship. So therefore, in order to please Chadatru, I have always felt it necessary to appease BOTH rutilor and botolf. Not an easy task, and not an easy line to walk, but one that is in character within the worship of the deities.
Also this would include those who worship the All-god as being an amalgamation of all the 13; and the 39 being "part" of the greater god. Sort of a kabbalistic interpretation, but still one valid in Elanthian life, and in conjuction with the Clerics guild, who after all are the experts in the field, even though Paladins share their magic, and we do look towards them for guidance in that respect.
Whether not a god is "dark" or "light", they are still the Immortals, and should be given respect, and yes, worship. For not to do so would imperil far more than our soul, but would be the end of existence of elanthia itself.
-Adon-
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
However, the very last statement of "not working towards the ends of a dark aspect", this I feel is stepping on the toes of the known worship, and the religious aspects of Elanthian Life.
Case in point, during the Asketis Ride event about a year or so ago, it was made painfully clear that the "main" deity is dependent upon BOth the light and dark aspects of that deity in order to function as a god. So therefore, in that respect, both aspects must somehow be appeased in the manner of ones worship. So therefore, in order to please Chadatru, I have always felt it necessary to appease BOTH rutilor and botolf. Not an easy task, and not an easy line to walk, but one that is in character within the worship of the deities.
Also this would include those who worship the All-god as being an amalgamation of all the 13; and the 39 being "part" of the greater god. Sort of a kabbalistic interpretation, but still one valid in Elanthian life, and in conjuction with the Clerics guild, who after all are the experts in the field, even though Paladins share their magic, and we do look towards them for guidance in that respect.
Whether not a god is "dark" or "light", they are still the Immortals, and should be given respect, and yes, worship. For not to do so would imperil far more than our soul, but would be the end of existence of elanthia itself.
-Adon-
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
GONIFTHEEF
Re: gods and the paladin code
01/30/2004 05:36 PM CST
<please excuse the fact that this post was in 2 parts, but the last 5 times I tried to copy and paste it all at once, my AOL decided to disconnect me. So, I'm going with what works. :-( >
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
---
A scavenger troll arrives, scouring the area.
The scavenger troll exclaims, "I dinks I like da' Moongate!"
The scavenger troll bends over and picks up the Moongate. After appraising it, the troll places the Moongate in its frayed knapsack
C0UGAR
Re: gods and the paladin code
01/30/2004 07:54 PM CST
>Case in point, during the Asketis Ride event about a year or so ago, it was made painfully clear that the "main" deity is dependent upon BOth the light and dark aspects of that deity in order to function as a god. So therefore, in that respect, both aspects must somehow be appeased in the manner of ones worship. So therefore, in order to please Chadatru, I have always felt it necessary to appease BOTH rutilor and botolf. Not an easy task, and not an easy line to walk, but one that is in character within the worship of the deities.
I will try to explain it how the council explained it to us at the Paladin Council meeting a while back, This topic has been thrashed to death and i hope after this it dies painfuly and horribly.
Though we are allowed to worship and respects all aspects of gods etc, we can not promote there ends, IE. a example would be a dark aspect of a god that wants to see the whole world die a misirable painfull death and nothing left on elanthia. Now we can hardly run about Slaying everyone we see to appease this particular aspect can we now? Do you have the right to respect that aspect? sure, can you help said aspect exterminate the population to furthur its end? newp.
Holy Guardian Michael Tristramm of the Rathan Fencible Regiment
Need forged plate armor?
http://www.mytwokronars.com/michaelarmor.html
I will try to explain it how the council explained it to us at the Paladin Council meeting a while back, This topic has been thrashed to death and i hope after this it dies painfuly and horribly.
Though we are allowed to worship and respects all aspects of gods etc, we can not promote there ends, IE. a example would be a dark aspect of a god that wants to see the whole world die a misirable painfull death and nothing left on elanthia. Now we can hardly run about Slaying everyone we see to appease this particular aspect can we now? Do you have the right to respect that aspect? sure, can you help said aspect exterminate the population to furthur its end? newp.
Holy Guardian Michael Tristramm of the Rathan Fencible Regiment
Need forged plate armor?
http://www.mytwokronars.com/michaelarmor.html
PTAH
Re: gods and the paladin code
01/30/2004 10:05 PM CST
Good post Michael. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
SAKHARA
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/02/2004 06:10 PM CST
>There are no true worshippers of the dark aspects because everyone knows there is no benefit for doing so.
>Though we are allowed to worship and respects all aspects of gods etc, we can not promote there [their] ends,
Hmmmm, interesting. I have two main characters, an empath (Dio) and a paladin (Vale). I play them as brothers, right down to the family squabbles and support. However, my paladin follows Meraud and my empath Idon. Yes, the dark aspect of Faenella. Vale supports his brother's choice of diety and aspect wholeheartedly, finding nothing wrong in it from either someone who loves his brother deeply or being a paladin.
All the dark aspects are, from their and my perspective, the balancing part of each primary diety. Dio, inherently, is self sacrificing to a truly life threatening degree, particularly as an empath. His following Idon balances his truly self destructive tendencies with a good, healthy dose of selfishness. This is why both his brother and his husband support Dio's choice of diety and aspect. No, Dio doesn't go around seducing every boy he comes across (not for lack of trying) or holding wild parties out in the woods with lots of drumming, again not for lack of trying, but more because his whole nature is the farthest thing from cruel or selfish. He doesn't actually get himself into trouble, usually, following Idon because he is by his very nature almost entirely unselfish.
For Vale, in following Meraud, he well knows the stagnation the search for knowledge above all else can end in. This is why he respects, even though he doesn't follow, Kerenhappuch. Without her, Meraud and Firulf would never truly be a part of the world. It is her aggression and drive for change that gives them the dynamism that benefits everyone.
It is very similar with Chadatru, although even more critical. True, blind, unwavering justice can be the cruelest torment for an individual or society as a whole. Without Boltof's tempering, the rule of Chadatru and Rutilor together would be a nightmare beyond belief. There is a time and a place for deception and lies ... when it serves mercy. Justice without mercy is truly a horrid thing, as many people and our own history have pointed out. But without lies, deception, or any other variation from pure blind justice and unwavering pursuit of justice, there is no place or room for mercy.
I think that's ultimately why I've always enjoyed the way DR set up the gods. The dark aspects are not evil, they are the balancing and tempering aspects for the light aspects, without which the rule of any of the light and neutral aspects alone would be evil. Oh yes, it is possible for the light aspects to support evil. One of the things I think a lot of people overlook. Rutilor and Chadatru only, for example, leave no room for the escape of Jean Valjean. <wry grin> Only the bishop/Boltof would let him escape justice to make his new life and so goes the story. (Best example I could come up with that I could expect people to know.)
Anyway, there's my two kronar,
Dio/Vale, player of
>Though we are allowed to worship and respects all aspects of gods etc, we can not promote there [their] ends,
Hmmmm, interesting. I have two main characters, an empath (Dio) and a paladin (Vale). I play them as brothers, right down to the family squabbles and support. However, my paladin follows Meraud and my empath Idon. Yes, the dark aspect of Faenella. Vale supports his brother's choice of diety and aspect wholeheartedly, finding nothing wrong in it from either someone who loves his brother deeply or being a paladin.
All the dark aspects are, from their and my perspective, the balancing part of each primary diety. Dio, inherently, is self sacrificing to a truly life threatening degree, particularly as an empath. His following Idon balances his truly self destructive tendencies with a good, healthy dose of selfishness. This is why both his brother and his husband support Dio's choice of diety and aspect. No, Dio doesn't go around seducing every boy he comes across (not for lack of trying) or holding wild parties out in the woods with lots of drumming, again not for lack of trying, but more because his whole nature is the farthest thing from cruel or selfish. He doesn't actually get himself into trouble, usually, following Idon because he is by his very nature almost entirely unselfish.
For Vale, in following Meraud, he well knows the stagnation the search for knowledge above all else can end in. This is why he respects, even though he doesn't follow, Kerenhappuch. Without her, Meraud and Firulf would never truly be a part of the world. It is her aggression and drive for change that gives them the dynamism that benefits everyone.
It is very similar with Chadatru, although even more critical. True, blind, unwavering justice can be the cruelest torment for an individual or society as a whole. Without Boltof's tempering, the rule of Chadatru and Rutilor together would be a nightmare beyond belief. There is a time and a place for deception and lies ... when it serves mercy. Justice without mercy is truly a horrid thing, as many people and our own history have pointed out. But without lies, deception, or any other variation from pure blind justice and unwavering pursuit of justice, there is no place or room for mercy.
I think that's ultimately why I've always enjoyed the way DR set up the gods. The dark aspects are not evil, they are the balancing and tempering aspects for the light aspects, without which the rule of any of the light and neutral aspects alone would be evil. Oh yes, it is possible for the light aspects to support evil. One of the things I think a lot of people overlook. Rutilor and Chadatru only, for example, leave no room for the escape of Jean Valjean. <wry grin> Only the bishop/Boltof would let him escape justice to make his new life and so goes the story. (Best example I could come up with that I could expect people to know.)
Anyway, there's my two kronar,
Dio/Vale, player of
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/03/2004 07:36 AM CST
<< It is very similar with Chadatru, although even more critical. True, blind, unwavering justice can be the cruelest torment for an individual or society as a whole. Without Boltof's tempering, the rule of Chadatru and Rutilor together would be a nightmare beyond belief. There is a time and a place for deception and lies ... when it serves mercy. Justice without mercy is truly a horrid thing, as many people and our own history have pointed out. But without lies, deception, or any other variation from pure blind justice and unwavering pursuit of justice, there is no place or room for mercy. >>
You paint too nice a picture of Boltolf. It is more that an unjust person that will with full intent and purpose cause further malice in society that he wishes released and not a person that will contribute to the betterment of all. That woeful soul that committed a foul deed but truly understands the error of the way and will ammend it with all fervor would languish in prison for all time in a world of Boltolf making the choice. Justice is to be tempered by an understanding of humanity and the inherent faults within, not by coddling the foul and delighting in the pain this causes the victims of the deeds done to them. What good can come to a society that watches guilty and unremorseful walk free while the framed languish? That is symbolic of Boltolf.
The idea that lies and deception can be as effective as the truth is in itself a lie. It is more a sign of the failure to have the inner resolve to stay firm and instead following a path of temporary least resistance. Alleviating the current presentation of trouble only to have it revisited in the future in many cases.
For some reason the concept keeps being espoused that Chadatru is pure blind justice. That is not exactly correct.
From the book of Immortals
Chadatru - next to Urrem'tier, Chadatru is the most faceless of the gods. Lord of justice, he is the fairest of all the gods, holding a sword in his
right hand and an olive laurel in his left. Chadatru is blind, but he fights as if he were gifted with sight. Fierce in a battle, Chadatru is the great arbitrator. He is the patron of kings, rulers, and judges. His word is his bond, and he tells the truth always. His emblem is the lion.
Fairest. His word is his bond. Speaks the truth always. The sword of just punishment, the olive laurel of peace/mercy.
Now Rutilor
Rutilor - Rutilor is kind in his job as the defender of the gods. He judges with kindness and even-handedness, and is ferocious in what he defends. A patron of paladins, Rutilor will stalwartly defend anyone who he feels is getting a raw deal. A god of truth, he cannot lie. He is a collector of swords, especially extraordinary ones, and has enchanted a few in his time. He has a small kennel of hounds that he unleashes when someone has escaped his judgment; they cannot stop once they are on a trail, and they never lose their prey. Without fear, Rutilor is much the same way, and -- though short by comparison to other gods (it is the form he chose) -- has taken on opponents twice his size. His emblem is the mongoose.
Please note. He judges with kindness and evenhandedness. Imagine that... he can do that and not lie. Absolutely amazing concept eh?
And of course, Botolf.
Botolf - the god of dishonesty and deceit, Botolf is the symbol of corruptness and bribery. His actions have caused murderers to go free and thieves to get off with damages paid by the person who prosecuted them. Botolf loves to visit Dirge (his favorite city), and is the patron of Knife Clan and thieves guilds. Botolf is also the god of fallen paladins, and often appears in tarnished armor in need of a polish. His emblem is the goshawk.
It isn't about setting free a potential hero, it is about rubbing salt into the wound of a victimizied group and or person.
I just don't get why folks want to romanticize the negative aspects into something they are not. Within the same turn the positive and main aspects are often sold as less than the face value that they are. Again, pictured as something less than what they really are intended to be.
As to the whole balance theory. it is revisionist, it is clerical and it is the most rigid interpretation possible of the elanthian deity package.
IC wise, Daython thinks the balance theory is an Asketi lie that people have swallowed unthinkingly and trusting when they should doubt the words that were said.
Daython
You paint too nice a picture of Boltolf. It is more that an unjust person that will with full intent and purpose cause further malice in society that he wishes released and not a person that will contribute to the betterment of all. That woeful soul that committed a foul deed but truly understands the error of the way and will ammend it with all fervor would languish in prison for all time in a world of Boltolf making the choice. Justice is to be tempered by an understanding of humanity and the inherent faults within, not by coddling the foul and delighting in the pain this causes the victims of the deeds done to them. What good can come to a society that watches guilty and unremorseful walk free while the framed languish? That is symbolic of Boltolf.
The idea that lies and deception can be as effective as the truth is in itself a lie. It is more a sign of the failure to have the inner resolve to stay firm and instead following a path of temporary least resistance. Alleviating the current presentation of trouble only to have it revisited in the future in many cases.
For some reason the concept keeps being espoused that Chadatru is pure blind justice. That is not exactly correct.
From the book of Immortals
Chadatru - next to Urrem'tier, Chadatru is the most faceless of the gods. Lord of justice, he is the fairest of all the gods, holding a sword in his
right hand and an olive laurel in his left. Chadatru is blind, but he fights as if he were gifted with sight. Fierce in a battle, Chadatru is the great arbitrator. He is the patron of kings, rulers, and judges. His word is his bond, and he tells the truth always. His emblem is the lion.
Fairest. His word is his bond. Speaks the truth always. The sword of just punishment, the olive laurel of peace/mercy.
Now Rutilor
Rutilor - Rutilor is kind in his job as the defender of the gods. He judges with kindness and even-handedness, and is ferocious in what he defends. A patron of paladins, Rutilor will stalwartly defend anyone who he feels is getting a raw deal. A god of truth, he cannot lie. He is a collector of swords, especially extraordinary ones, and has enchanted a few in his time. He has a small kennel of hounds that he unleashes when someone has escaped his judgment; they cannot stop once they are on a trail, and they never lose their prey. Without fear, Rutilor is much the same way, and -- though short by comparison to other gods (it is the form he chose) -- has taken on opponents twice his size. His emblem is the mongoose.
Please note. He judges with kindness and evenhandedness. Imagine that... he can do that and not lie. Absolutely amazing concept eh?
And of course, Botolf.
Botolf - the god of dishonesty and deceit, Botolf is the symbol of corruptness and bribery. His actions have caused murderers to go free and thieves to get off with damages paid by the person who prosecuted them. Botolf loves to visit Dirge (his favorite city), and is the patron of Knife Clan and thieves guilds. Botolf is also the god of fallen paladins, and often appears in tarnished armor in need of a polish. His emblem is the goshawk.
It isn't about setting free a potential hero, it is about rubbing salt into the wound of a victimizied group and or person.
I just don't get why folks want to romanticize the negative aspects into something they are not. Within the same turn the positive and main aspects are often sold as less than the face value that they are. Again, pictured as something less than what they really are intended to be.
As to the whole balance theory. it is revisionist, it is clerical and it is the most rigid interpretation possible of the elanthian deity package.
IC wise, Daython thinks the balance theory is an Asketi lie that people have swallowed unthinkingly and trusting when they should doubt the words that were said.
Daython
CHARISMATICA
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/03/2004 03:17 PM CST
Excellent post Daython, I agree.
Negative aspects work against themselves.
If botolf is the god of dishonesty, how does one of his worshippers know what he wants him to do? If he didn't lie to his worshippers he wouldn't exactly be promoting dishonesty anymore.
Dandon
"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something" ~ Jack Handy
Negative aspects work against themselves.
If botolf is the god of dishonesty, how does one of his worshippers know what he wants him to do? If he didn't lie to his worshippers he wouldn't exactly be promoting dishonesty anymore.
Dandon
"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something" ~ Jack Handy
DRLIGHT
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/03/2004 04:00 PM CST
<<Negative aspects work against themselves.>>
Yes but justice sooner or later becomes blind to those who they are truely protecting and sees them as evil.
As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. To worship Botolf may not mean a person has to follow the description of the god given to the exact word. But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil.
Ellsdragon Dride
Yes but justice sooner or later becomes blind to those who they are truely protecting and sees them as evil.
As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. To worship Botolf may not mean a person has to follow the description of the god given to the exact word. But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil.
Ellsdragon Dride
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/03/2004 07:21 PM CST
<<
Yes but justice sooner or later becomes blind to those who they are truely protecting and sees them as evil. >>
Huh? That means what exactly?
<<
As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. >>
That statement is pure revisionist shoved down our throats by the cleric guild and not a part of the original pantheon. It is inane and intellectually dishonest as well as being rigid and unnecessarily confining. As in, If I champion the light and become so good at doing that that I some day face the source of the evil and slay a negative aspect I now kill my chosen deity? I don't think so. In the end that almost totally invalidates every step along the way of my pursuit of the ultimate goodness.
<< But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil. >>
Again, more romanticizing. Would you agree that fervently protecting someone you feel is getting a raw deal is equivalent to what you just wrote? I see no mandata that protecting is some how mutually exclusive of killing. They can be the same. Sure, we may take a soul hit for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean the act was evil but that there is remorse for needing to have done so. Because the game can not distinguish a persons individual motivations for doing a deed is no reason to base a whole philosophy on it.
Daython
Yes but justice sooner or later becomes blind to those who they are truely protecting and sees them as evil. >>
Huh? That means what exactly?
<<
As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. >>
That statement is pure revisionist shoved down our throats by the cleric guild and not a part of the original pantheon. It is inane and intellectually dishonest as well as being rigid and unnecessarily confining. As in, If I champion the light and become so good at doing that that I some day face the source of the evil and slay a negative aspect I now kill my chosen deity? I don't think so. In the end that almost totally invalidates every step along the way of my pursuit of the ultimate goodness.
<< But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil. >>
Again, more romanticizing. Would you agree that fervently protecting someone you feel is getting a raw deal is equivalent to what you just wrote? I see no mandata that protecting is some how mutually exclusive of killing. They can be the same. Sure, we may take a soul hit for it, but that doesn't necessarily mean the act was evil but that there is remorse for needing to have done so. Because the game can not distinguish a persons individual motivations for doing a deed is no reason to base a whole philosophy on it.
Daython
C0UGAR
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 04:20 AM CST
>Yes but justice sooner or later becomes blind to those who they are truely protecting and sees them as evil.
says who? lay offa the samatak
>As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. To worship Botolf may not mean a person has to follow the description of the god given to the exact word. But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil.
So a paladin can do bad stuff and justify it if he follows Boltof? If you take justice into your own hands its your choice, not cose you follow some god. 'sorry boltof made me do it'. What a cop out is that?
Holy Guardian Michael Tristramm of the Rathan Fencible Regiment
Need forged plate armor?
http://www.mytwokronars.com/michaelarmor.html
says who? lay offa the samatak
>As someone said before a god/goddess cannot exisit without either aspect. To worship Botolf may not mean a person has to follow the description of the god given to the exact word. But perhaps if the paladin takes justice into his own hands (dark/lone knights) to protect those he feels who needs it and to punish those who he thinks deserves it, a paladin follower of Boltof would be pardoned for the murder he/she just did. Even though it was for the greater good, the paladin still acted beyond the mortal laws and killed someone who he/she felt was evil, but not nesecarilly truely evil.
So a paladin can do bad stuff and justify it if he follows Boltof? If you take justice into your own hands its your choice, not cose you follow some god. 'sorry boltof made me do it'. What a cop out is that?
Holy Guardian Michael Tristramm of the Rathan Fencible Regiment
Need forged plate armor?
http://www.mytwokronars.com/michaelarmor.html
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 05:24 AM CST
<<That statement is pure revisionist shoved down our throats by the cleric guild and not a part of the original pantheon. It is inane and intellectually dishonest as well as being rigid and unnecessarily confining. As in, If I champion the light and become so good at doing that that I some day face the source of the evil and slay a negative aspect I now kill my chosen deity? I don't think so. In the end that almost totally invalidates every step along the way of my pursuit of the ultimate goodness.>>
While all this might be true, it is also true that, in DR, the three aspects are required for the survival of the individual Immortal. In other words, you may not like it, you may want to rail against it, but that doesn't change that it's the truth.
At least until the next revision.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
While all this might be true, it is also true that, in DR, the three aspects are required for the survival of the individual Immortal. In other words, you may not like it, you may want to rail against it, but that doesn't change that it's the truth.
At least until the next revision.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 08:08 AM CST
<<
While all this might be true, it is also true that, in DR, the three aspects are required for the survival of the individual Immortal. In other words, you may not like it, you may want to rail against it, but that doesn't change that it's the truth. >>
Yea, well.... I would like to know what input our guru had in all this. Oh, perhaps we didn't have one then. Nods. The original pantheon was written vague for a reason, to allow for diverse opinions. Then suddenly we get all this raise hoopla going on and we start getting a rigid picture of the pantheon shoved at us. No deliberation accepted from this quarter. Shrugs, seems like clerics in DR are like Lawyers, they make the pantheon into a self perpetuating profession.
From the book of The Immortals
Some believers consider the positive and negative aspects of the gods and goddesses to belong to them, that they are just different names for referring to certain "moods" of the same deities. Others contend that these are indeed separate, minor deities, who serve the Immortals and do that portion of their bidding that serves mortals in manner fair or foul. Be that as it may, there is no doubt that across Elanthia, shrines to the major manifestations of the Thirteen Immortals exist, as well as shrines to their aspects or demiurges. The aspects can be either male, female or animal, regardless of the form of the master Immortal. The Immortals that are either male or female, and the demiurges, possess certain auspicious or foreboding animals associated with them, as emblems or totems. The races of Elanthia, as prone as they are to foreshadows and prognostication, and augurs, observe these correspondences with great attention.
Purposefully and willfully vague. A more refined perspective need not disagree with this writing. Nor completely usurp it and make it void. It should build upon what is there if it seems to be needed.
Daython
While all this might be true, it is also true that, in DR, the three aspects are required for the survival of the individual Immortal. In other words, you may not like it, you may want to rail against it, but that doesn't change that it's the truth. >>
Yea, well.... I would like to know what input our guru had in all this. Oh, perhaps we didn't have one then. Nods. The original pantheon was written vague for a reason, to allow for diverse opinions. Then suddenly we get all this raise hoopla going on and we start getting a rigid picture of the pantheon shoved at us. No deliberation accepted from this quarter. Shrugs, seems like clerics in DR are like Lawyers, they make the pantheon into a self perpetuating profession.
From the book of The Immortals
Some believers consider the positive and negative aspects of the gods and goddesses to belong to them, that they are just different names for referring to certain "moods" of the same deities. Others contend that these are indeed separate, minor deities, who serve the Immortals and do that portion of their bidding that serves mortals in manner fair or foul. Be that as it may, there is no doubt that across Elanthia, shrines to the major manifestations of the Thirteen Immortals exist, as well as shrines to their aspects or demiurges. The aspects can be either male, female or animal, regardless of the form of the master Immortal. The Immortals that are either male or female, and the demiurges, possess certain auspicious or foreboding animals associated with them, as emblems or totems. The races of Elanthia, as prone as they are to foreshadows and prognostication, and augurs, observe these correspondences with great attention.
Purposefully and willfully vague. A more refined perspective need not disagree with this writing. Nor completely usurp it and make it void. It should build upon what is there if it seems to be needed.
Daython
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 03:06 PM CST
<<Yea, well.... I would like to know what input our guru had in all this.>>
How does our guru not having any say in the depiction of the Immortals invalidate what has been stated?
<<Purposefully and willfully vague. A more refined perspective need not disagree with this writing. Nor completely usurp it and make it void. It should build upon what is there if it seems to be needed.>>
You don't like what happenned. Great. We know you don't like it. That doesn't make it false.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
How does our guru not having any say in the depiction of the Immortals invalidate what has been stated?
<<Purposefully and willfully vague. A more refined perspective need not disagree with this writing. Nor completely usurp it and make it void. It should build upon what is there if it seems to be needed.>>
You don't like what happenned. Great. We know you don't like it. That doesn't make it false.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
PTAH
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 04:33 PM CST
I'll only comment on one part of this post. But it pretty much sums up how, I believe, the overall logic goes off course here.
<<True, blind, unwavering justice can be the cruelest torment for an individual or society as a whole.>>
If Justice is indeed "cruel torment", then indeed what you're referring to, isn't "true" justice. Think about it.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
<<True, blind, unwavering justice can be the cruelest torment for an individual or society as a whole.>>
If Justice is indeed "cruel torment", then indeed what you're referring to, isn't "true" justice. Think about it.
Brittany (...the player of Aspasia Undojen'pelci)
"If ever the Darkness should conquer the Light, the last gleam shall come from the uplifted blade of one of a righteous Paladin."
Sir Cleworth, paladin initiation speech.
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 07:15 PM CST
<< How does our guru not having any say in the depiction of the Immortals invalidate what has been stated? >>
Because the Paladin guild has a legitimate vested interest in the structure. Well, supposedly. The other holy guild. You are being so bad Drongol player, you know your own inconsitency on this issue. Is this an interview or true commentary on your part?
As a player I don't like it. As a character I don't believe it.
Daython
Because the Paladin guild has a legitimate vested interest in the structure. Well, supposedly. The other holy guild. You are being so bad Drongol player, you know your own inconsitency on this issue. Is this an interview or true commentary on your part?
As a player I don't like it. As a character I don't believe it.
Daython
LENNONJON
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 11:10 PM CST
<<Some believers consider the positive and negative aspects of the gods and goddesses to belong to them, that they are just different names for referring to certain "moods" of the same deities. >>
Hence the reason Lennon follows the All-god, he believes all the "immortals" are just different faces of the greater whole =P
--Just a "clueless" Squire
Hence the reason Lennon follows the All-god, he believes all the "immortals" are just different faces of the greater whole =P
--Just a "clueless" Squire
LENNONJON
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/04/2004 11:21 PM CST
<<If Justice is indeed "cruel torment", then indeed what you're referring to, isn't "true" justice. Think about it.>>
The issue here, I think, is that from your perspective Brittany (and many others) "true" justice is some ethreal entity that is based on what the law dictates. To others "true" justice is about personal beliefs of what is right or wrong, not necessarily what is written in the black letter of the law books. Some may believe it is "just" to send a murderer to prison, others may believe it is just to have them executed. Sometimes justice for either faction is the same. Its really impossible to ever come to an agreement on this same old discussion, because there are situations where each side will see the actions of the other as being unjust, and see their own actions as being just. The one thing I have constantly seen is that your "side" uses what exists in the Elanthia law books as defining justice, and as such believe that you are morally right, because if you were wrong it wouldn't be in the law books. Yet the justice as defined in the Elanthian law books is the justice of the ruling class of one time, place, and culture, it's not necessarily the ONLY justice that exists.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
The issue here, I think, is that from your perspective Brittany (and many others) "true" justice is some ethreal entity that is based on what the law dictates. To others "true" justice is about personal beliefs of what is right or wrong, not necessarily what is written in the black letter of the law books. Some may believe it is "just" to send a murderer to prison, others may believe it is just to have them executed. Sometimes justice for either faction is the same. Its really impossible to ever come to an agreement on this same old discussion, because there are situations where each side will see the actions of the other as being unjust, and see their own actions as being just. The one thing I have constantly seen is that your "side" uses what exists in the Elanthia law books as defining justice, and as such believe that you are morally right, because if you were wrong it wouldn't be in the law books. Yet the justice as defined in the Elanthian law books is the justice of the ruling class of one time, place, and culture, it's not necessarily the ONLY justice that exists.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:18 AM CST
<<If Justice is indeed "cruel torment", then indeed what you're referring to, isn't "true" justice. Think about it.>>
This can be argued for ages. It comes down, effectively, to this argument:
If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime?
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
This can be argued for ages. It comes down, effectively, to this argument:
If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime?
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:20 AM CST
<<Because the Paladin guild has a legitimate vested interest in the structure.>>
This does not change what is.
<<You are being so bad Drongol player, you know your own inconsitency on this issue.>>
What inconsistency? I go with what we are told is the truth, regardless of whether or not I personally like it.
<<As a player I don't like it. As a character I don't believe it.>>
Daython's delusional RP aside, there is no way to invalidate what has been stated in any sort of OOC way. You don't like that Paladins didn't get any input into something that has traditionally been Cleric domain. Big deal. This does not mean that what the Cleric GMs stated is incorrect, false, or otherwise not true.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
This does not change what is.
<<You are being so bad Drongol player, you know your own inconsitency on this issue.>>
What inconsistency? I go with what we are told is the truth, regardless of whether or not I personally like it.
<<As a player I don't like it. As a character I don't believe it.>>
Daython's delusional RP aside, there is no way to invalidate what has been stated in any sort of OOC way. You don't like that Paladins didn't get any input into something that has traditionally been Cleric domain. Big deal. This does not mean that what the Cleric GMs stated is incorrect, false, or otherwise not true.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:26 AM CST
<< If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime? >>
That of course assumes theft was the only option. Or that the person the bread was stolen from had ample supplies to feed his/her family. And many more.
Daython
That of course assumes theft was the only option. Or that the person the bread was stolen from had ample supplies to feed his/her family. And many more.
Daython
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:27 AM CST
<<That of course assumes theft was the only option. Or that the person the bread was stolen from had ample supplies to feed his/her family. And many more.>>
Welcome to the argument.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
Welcome to the argument.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
F4S4VR
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 09:37 AM CST
>If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime?
I don't think this is really the question at all. In this statement it is presumed that EVERYONE agrees that the taking of the bread was indeed a "Crime" - the only question is in regard to what should be the consequence of the crime, i.e. should it be mitigated or not.
The real agrument is, was this really a "crime" at all.
In my opinion, of course its a crime and all circumstances should be considered in formulating a response to that crime.
Now, having stated the only really "right" understanding of the situation <g>; I am sure that there are people out there who would argue that taking something (bread in this case) from another in order to prevent a greater harm (starvation)to another (his children), is not a crime at all -"wrong" as that contention may be. <winks>
Gloryarm
I don't think this is really the question at all. In this statement it is presumed that EVERYONE agrees that the taking of the bread was indeed a "Crime" - the only question is in regard to what should be the consequence of the crime, i.e. should it be mitigated or not.
The real agrument is, was this really a "crime" at all.
In my opinion, of course its a crime and all circumstances should be considered in formulating a response to that crime.
Now, having stated the only really "right" understanding of the situation <g>; I am sure that there are people out there who would argue that taking something (bread in this case) from another in order to prevent a greater harm (starvation)to another (his children), is not a crime at all -"wrong" as that contention may be. <winks>
Gloryarm
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 09:45 AM CST
<<I don't think this is really the question at all.>>
It shouldn't be, but it is. Put into more textbook-style terminology, the question is "to what extent should justice be tempered with mercy?"
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
It shouldn't be, but it is. Put into more textbook-style terminology, the question is "to what extent should justice be tempered with mercy?"
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
SAKHARA
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:01 PM CST
>If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime?
Depends on the code of law. Some (most) Oriental legal systems have no place for extenuating circumstances. <shrug> Real world study of law and justice is rather interesting, particularly if you wander outside Occidental legal systems. Mitigation of crime is an interesting topic when looking at laws, as different cultures create and apply them.
It's a rich field for fiction, as has been shown around the world. In Elanthia, there really hasn't been any signifigant indicator of what form 'justice' takes. Myself, I tend to look at Elanthian 'justice' as fairly modern and Western, just because that does seem to be how it is applied, even though I think it should be more Midieval and so a far richer field for conflict. (Conflict is good when creating fiction. Can't have a story without a conflict, ya know.)
Thing is, real.life justice, I think, shouldn't necessarily have all that much to do with Elanthian justice. Modern Western justice, with all it's rather sophisticated bells and whistles is no where near as much fun to role play. <g>
My characters ... well, Vale is a bit more sophisticated than Dio and thinks more. Vale's pretty easy going except when he sees what he thinks is an injustice done, and he does have the more modern mindset where he'll fight to stop it. Dio, on the other hand, is far more a product of his upbringing in hardscrabble poverty and tends to 'look the other way'. He figures it's the person's fault for getting caught, if nothing else. (Yes, they really do have different personalities.)
Player of 'the boys'
Depends on the code of law. Some (most) Oriental legal systems have no place for extenuating circumstances. <shrug> Real world study of law and justice is rather interesting, particularly if you wander outside Occidental legal systems. Mitigation of crime is an interesting topic when looking at laws, as different cultures create and apply them.
It's a rich field for fiction, as has been shown around the world. In Elanthia, there really hasn't been any signifigant indicator of what form 'justice' takes. Myself, I tend to look at Elanthian 'justice' as fairly modern and Western, just because that does seem to be how it is applied, even though I think it should be more Midieval and so a far richer field for conflict. (Conflict is good when creating fiction. Can't have a story without a conflict, ya know.)
Thing is, real.life justice, I think, shouldn't necessarily have all that much to do with Elanthian justice. Modern Western justice, with all it's rather sophisticated bells and whistles is no where near as much fun to role play. <g>
My characters ... well, Vale is a bit more sophisticated than Dio and thinks more. Vale's pretty easy going except when he sees what he thinks is an injustice done, and he does have the more modern mindset where he'll fight to stop it. Dio, on the other hand, is far more a product of his upbringing in hardscrabble poverty and tends to 'look the other way'. He figures it's the person's fault for getting caught, if nothing else. (Yes, they really do have different personalities.)
Player of 'the boys'
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:13 PM CST
<<Depends on the code of law.>>
I don't think you quite understood the question. This is the sort of thing which differentiates Paladins in DR. RL justice systems quite honestly have nothing to do with it.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
I don't think you quite understood the question. This is the sort of thing which differentiates Paladins in DR. RL justice systems quite honestly have nothing to do with it.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
SAKHARA
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 05:27 PM CST
>This is the sort of thing which differentiates Paladins in DR. RL justice systems quite honestly have nothing to do with it.
Then where else are they going to come from? Whole cloth? If that's the case, then you can say anything from following the letter of the law with absolutely no interpretation (as a computer would and does) to whatever feels right at the moment. (which seems to be how some people play the game. <g>)
Right now, there is no definition of justice and all I was saying is that there is no one definition in real.life. Ultimately, all fiction, role playing, what have you, comes from real life examples, either positively or negatively. DR doesn't exist in a vaccuum.
Personally, I think the ideal is to have a range of interpretation from the most extreme Oriental forms where the law is absolute and there is no mitigation of the rule of law to the ultra-liberal (in the traditional sense) forms where what is just is what is the greatest good for the greatest number. <shrug> This creates a lot of opportunities, on all sides, that can be played with and expanded into some really solid story lines.
Vale, player of
Then where else are they going to come from? Whole cloth? If that's the case, then you can say anything from following the letter of the law with absolutely no interpretation (as a computer would and does) to whatever feels right at the moment. (which seems to be how some people play the game. <g>)
Right now, there is no definition of justice and all I was saying is that there is no one definition in real.life. Ultimately, all fiction, role playing, what have you, comes from real life examples, either positively or negatively. DR doesn't exist in a vaccuum.
Personally, I think the ideal is to have a range of interpretation from the most extreme Oriental forms where the law is absolute and there is no mitigation of the rule of law to the ultra-liberal (in the traditional sense) forms where what is just is what is the greatest good for the greatest number. <shrug> This creates a lot of opportunities, on all sides, that can be played with and expanded into some really solid story lines.
Vale, player of
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 06:01 PM CST
<< Daython's delusional RP aside, there is no way to invalidate what has been stated in any sort of OOC way. You don't like that Paladins didn't get any input into something that has traditionally been Cleric domain. Big deal. This does not mean that what the Cleric GMs stated is incorrect, false, or otherwise not true.
Nah, more simply put there are contradictory in game materials. I will stick to the book of immortals. Perhaps there is even more room for contradiction with a more paladin centric take on what the immortals are. That is what I would like to see as Paladin input on it. Religion can survive and thrive just fine with contradictory opinions on the nature of the reverred.
<< It shouldn't be, but it is. Put into more textbook-style terminology, the question is "to what extent should justice be tempered with mercy?"
Be careful who you argue law with.
As for my opinion. It is a hierarchy of needs balanced against the will of the governing society. This is often seen in criminal cases because it is not offender vs. the offended. But the offender vs. the state in regards to the crime. Which differs of course from civil litigation.
On a more DR level. It is my right to grant mercy to those who have personally offended me. Though in ways it would be foolish to assume that the choice for mercy or punishment is not somehow dictated within my own personal social circumstances.
It is not necessarily my right to grant mercy to a person that has offended others. I may attempt to intercede on their behalf, but that is different. It is more my position to attempt to arrange conditions so that that the person with the right to decide on mercy can do so. In essence being a member of the social condition that influences choices.
But, the context I addressed is that people keep interpreting Chadatru as blind justice and that is not what the text says. Chadatru balances justice with mercy. Somehow folks keep romanticizing the negative aspect as the aspect of mercy, which he is not.
Daython
Nah, more simply put there are contradictory in game materials. I will stick to the book of immortals. Perhaps there is even more room for contradiction with a more paladin centric take on what the immortals are. That is what I would like to see as Paladin input on it. Religion can survive and thrive just fine with contradictory opinions on the nature of the reverred.
<< It shouldn't be, but it is. Put into more textbook-style terminology, the question is "to what extent should justice be tempered with mercy?"
Be careful who you argue law with.
As for my opinion. It is a hierarchy of needs balanced against the will of the governing society. This is often seen in criminal cases because it is not offender vs. the offended. But the offender vs. the state in regards to the crime. Which differs of course from civil litigation.
On a more DR level. It is my right to grant mercy to those who have personally offended me. Though in ways it would be foolish to assume that the choice for mercy or punishment is not somehow dictated within my own personal social circumstances.
It is not necessarily my right to grant mercy to a person that has offended others. I may attempt to intercede on their behalf, but that is different. It is more my position to attempt to arrange conditions so that that the person with the right to decide on mercy can do so. In essence being a member of the social condition that influences choices.
But, the context I addressed is that people keep interpreting Chadatru as blind justice and that is not what the text says. Chadatru balances justice with mercy. Somehow folks keep romanticizing the negative aspect as the aspect of mercy, which he is not.
Daython
SAKHARA
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/05/2004 07:48 PM CST
>Chadatru balances justice with mercy.
This I don't see. Not without being able to lie or be on the side of the 'little people'. Literally ... "Chadatru is the great arbitrator and patron of kings, rulers, and judges." Also ... "and for good or ill, he is compelled to always speak the truth."
As the patron of kings, rulers and judges he's not going to take the side of some peasant who's been shoved off his land. That's not his place. That's why there are light and dark aspects, as I see it, in Elanthia. Honestly, I see this as more Rutilor's place. Even though, the lord's justice, at least in the time period we're talking about, was absolute and immutable. What he said was law and just.
However, Boltof, I think, is still necessary. He's the crooked judge who lets off his friends and punishes his enemies. He's the corrupt guard who lets the enemy through the gates. However, in a midieval setting, where the lord above him can be even more vicious, is it always evil for his laws to not be enforced? Even more, when the 'trial' is a mob, the crooked judge can be merciful. The corrupt guard can let in the righteous to take down the worse lord.
>Somehow folks keep romanticizing the negative aspect as the aspect of mercy, which he is not.
Today, yes. In our society, we do have checks and balances on our leaders and judges. In a time where the law was whatever the lord said it was and justice was often enough the strongest arm, (cf Chadatru) there is a place for Boltof. I see Boltof as the random aspect. The short straw when looking for justice that gives the opposite.
From an IC standpoint, Vale, my paladin will have nothing to do with Boltof and despises all his work. However, Dio, my empath, is a lot more, um, practical about it. (not surprising) To Dio, Boltof is the last ditch chance of the poor man who stole a bag of corn from his lord. He's the random factor that can let a kid get away with murder when he finally turns on the father who's beaten him one too many times. Dio understands, to the marrow of his bones, that by the justice of his world, the lord has the perfect right to keep his corn or the father to beat his son. But then Dio, in his past, has given unwanted children to Eylhaar and has had to go hungry because his richer neighbors wouldn't give his family the gleanings from their harvest. Vale never saw that side of life in the town they grew up in. He wasn't trapped into the round of still room, washing, cleaning and cooking the way Dio was. Vale was in the fields working with the other men and always had plenty to eat (relatively) because he was fed to do that work.
There is no romanticisation of Dio's attitude toward the dark aspects. However, he does submit himself to them as he does to the light and neutral ones. He knows full well Idon's nature and it is not kind. That said, he also fully acknowledges the need for darkness as well as light. For random, cruel chance must sometimes win as well as fairness and 'honor', just because, to him, that's all a part of life. Without that, there is no chance for the odd one out, the misfit, the people who keep everyone else honest. <g> (Hush you.)
I don't think Vale would destroy Boltof if he could, because he does know, intellectually, his place, but he shies away from even having to think about him. In this he does defer to his brother and keeps his silence.
Back to OOC, that kind of interplay, between the brothers and with other characters, is what makes DR a fun game for me. (Writing fiction, too, truth be known.) The way different people will react to the situation they find themselves in. Both my main characters have quite extensive backgrounds, so I can 'ask' them what they think about things. The answers I get are often amusing enough to keep me going. Maybe I'll write Vale's story sometimes, since I have written Dio's.
Player of noisy characters
This I don't see. Not without being able to lie or be on the side of the 'little people'. Literally ... "Chadatru is the great arbitrator and patron of kings, rulers, and judges." Also ... "and for good or ill, he is compelled to always speak the truth."
As the patron of kings, rulers and judges he's not going to take the side of some peasant who's been shoved off his land. That's not his place. That's why there are light and dark aspects, as I see it, in Elanthia. Honestly, I see this as more Rutilor's place. Even though, the lord's justice, at least in the time period we're talking about, was absolute and immutable. What he said was law and just.
However, Boltof, I think, is still necessary. He's the crooked judge who lets off his friends and punishes his enemies. He's the corrupt guard who lets the enemy through the gates. However, in a midieval setting, where the lord above him can be even more vicious, is it always evil for his laws to not be enforced? Even more, when the 'trial' is a mob, the crooked judge can be merciful. The corrupt guard can let in the righteous to take down the worse lord.
>Somehow folks keep romanticizing the negative aspect as the aspect of mercy, which he is not.
Today, yes. In our society, we do have checks and balances on our leaders and judges. In a time where the law was whatever the lord said it was and justice was often enough the strongest arm, (cf Chadatru) there is a place for Boltof. I see Boltof as the random aspect. The short straw when looking for justice that gives the opposite.
From an IC standpoint, Vale, my paladin will have nothing to do with Boltof and despises all his work. However, Dio, my empath, is a lot more, um, practical about it. (not surprising) To Dio, Boltof is the last ditch chance of the poor man who stole a bag of corn from his lord. He's the random factor that can let a kid get away with murder when he finally turns on the father who's beaten him one too many times. Dio understands, to the marrow of his bones, that by the justice of his world, the lord has the perfect right to keep his corn or the father to beat his son. But then Dio, in his past, has given unwanted children to Eylhaar and has had to go hungry because his richer neighbors wouldn't give his family the gleanings from their harvest. Vale never saw that side of life in the town they grew up in. He wasn't trapped into the round of still room, washing, cleaning and cooking the way Dio was. Vale was in the fields working with the other men and always had plenty to eat (relatively) because he was fed to do that work.
There is no romanticisation of Dio's attitude toward the dark aspects. However, he does submit himself to them as he does to the light and neutral ones. He knows full well Idon's nature and it is not kind. That said, he also fully acknowledges the need for darkness as well as light. For random, cruel chance must sometimes win as well as fairness and 'honor', just because, to him, that's all a part of life. Without that, there is no chance for the odd one out, the misfit, the people who keep everyone else honest. <g> (Hush you.)
I don't think Vale would destroy Boltof if he could, because he does know, intellectually, his place, but he shies away from even having to think about him. In this he does defer to his brother and keeps his silence.
Back to OOC, that kind of interplay, between the brothers and with other characters, is what makes DR a fun game for me. (Writing fiction, too, truth be known.) The way different people will react to the situation they find themselves in. Both my main characters have quite extensive backgrounds, so I can 'ask' them what they think about things. The answers I get are often amusing enough to keep me going. Maybe I'll write Vale's story sometimes, since I have written Dio's.
Player of noisy characters
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/06/2004 02:37 AM CST
<< This I don't see. Not without being able to lie or be on the side of the 'little people'. Literally ... "Chadatru is the great arbitrator and patron of kings, rulers, and judges." Also ... "and for good or ill, he is compelled to always speak the truth." >>
Huh? To be able to show mercy one must lie? That is very far off.
<<As the patron of kings, rulers and judges he's not going to take the side of some peasant who's been shoved off his land. That's not his place. That's why there are light and dark aspects, as I see it, in Elanthia. Honestly, I see this as more Rutilor's place. Even though, the lord's justice, at least in the time period we're talking about, was absolute and immutable. What he said was law and just >>
An inappropriate mixing of practice and ideal. Because Chadatru may be a patron of kings, judges etc does not mean that the king, judge etc is actually following the teachings of Chadatru. Nor does it mean that all secular laws in current practice are fully acceptable to Chadatru. Let's say a law is designed with the intent and purpose of taking over small land owners. Chadatru comes to the witness stand. He is asked, "Why was this law made?" In speaking only truth Chadatru would reveal the true and unjust nature of why the law was made. This does not make Chadatru somehow responsible for the law because someone claimed him as patron. It exposes the manipulation of the officials that made the law. In the end, the unbelief and lack of faith of those claiming to follow Chadatru but making unjust laws.
<< However, Boltof, I think, is still necessary. He's the crooked judge who lets off his friends and punishes his enemies. He's the corrupt guard who lets the enemy through the gates. However, in a midieval setting, where the lord above him can be even more vicious, is it always evil for his laws to not be enforced? Even more, when the 'trial' is a mob, the crooked judge can be merciful. The corrupt guard can let in the righteous to take down the worse lord. >>
Again, acting against a secular unjust practice is the domain of Chadatru and Rutilor. Rutilor defends those getting a raw deal. Unjuust evil lord is a raw deal wouldn't you say?
<< Today, yes. In our society, we do have checks and balances on our leaders and judges. In a time where the law was whatever the lord said it was and justice was often enough the strongest arm, (cf Chadatru) there is a place for Boltof. I see Boltof as the random aspect. The short straw when looking for justice that gives the opposite.
That is overstating a stereotype that is not fundamentally backed by the majority of history. I do not deny that the strongest arm tended to make the laws, but there was quite a bit more to it than that. In fact, I am not particularly sure that we have progressed much beyond that state. Perhaps the sword has been replaced by cash. But, that goes beyond the scope of these boards and to argue the point fully would delve into areas that are best left out of these boards.
Daython
Huh? To be able to show mercy one must lie? That is very far off.
<<As the patron of kings, rulers and judges he's not going to take the side of some peasant who's been shoved off his land. That's not his place. That's why there are light and dark aspects, as I see it, in Elanthia. Honestly, I see this as more Rutilor's place. Even though, the lord's justice, at least in the time period we're talking about, was absolute and immutable. What he said was law and just >>
An inappropriate mixing of practice and ideal. Because Chadatru may be a patron of kings, judges etc does not mean that the king, judge etc is actually following the teachings of Chadatru. Nor does it mean that all secular laws in current practice are fully acceptable to Chadatru. Let's say a law is designed with the intent and purpose of taking over small land owners. Chadatru comes to the witness stand. He is asked, "Why was this law made?" In speaking only truth Chadatru would reveal the true and unjust nature of why the law was made. This does not make Chadatru somehow responsible for the law because someone claimed him as patron. It exposes the manipulation of the officials that made the law. In the end, the unbelief and lack of faith of those claiming to follow Chadatru but making unjust laws.
<< However, Boltof, I think, is still necessary. He's the crooked judge who lets off his friends and punishes his enemies. He's the corrupt guard who lets the enemy through the gates. However, in a midieval setting, where the lord above him can be even more vicious, is it always evil for his laws to not be enforced? Even more, when the 'trial' is a mob, the crooked judge can be merciful. The corrupt guard can let in the righteous to take down the worse lord. >>
Again, acting against a secular unjust practice is the domain of Chadatru and Rutilor. Rutilor defends those getting a raw deal. Unjuust evil lord is a raw deal wouldn't you say?
<< Today, yes. In our society, we do have checks and balances on our leaders and judges. In a time where the law was whatever the lord said it was and justice was often enough the strongest arm, (cf Chadatru) there is a place for Boltof. I see Boltof as the random aspect. The short straw when looking for justice that gives the opposite.
That is overstating a stereotype that is not fundamentally backed by the majority of history. I do not deny that the strongest arm tended to make the laws, but there was quite a bit more to it than that. In fact, I am not particularly sure that we have progressed much beyond that state. Perhaps the sword has been replaced by cash. But, that goes beyond the scope of these boards and to argue the point fully would delve into areas that are best left out of these boards.
Daython
ROTHJ
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/06/2004 06:24 AM CST
Daython's Player,
As you bring up so passionately when confronted with a statement that refutes your own personal opinions, we are talking about different perspectives here. Put simply, nobody knows what Chadatru is like, because he's a piece of text in a game that has only showed himself to bite a few people and kill a couple of Paladins who didn't like Darius much.
Perhaps when Team Cleric gets around to explaining Chadatru for us, he'll be a nice guy. Or perhaps he'll be a jerkwad. We'll have to wait.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
As you bring up so passionately when confronted with a statement that refutes your own personal opinions, we are talking about different perspectives here. Put simply, nobody knows what Chadatru is like, because he's a piece of text in a game that has only showed himself to bite a few people and kill a couple of Paladins who didn't like Darius much.
Perhaps when Team Cleric gets around to explaining Chadatru for us, he'll be a nice guy. Or perhaps he'll be a jerkwad. We'll have to wait.
Drongol's Player
PC also stands for "Paying Customer."
OLDTIMER
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/06/2004 12:25 PM CST
It doesn't get more classic in representation than holding a sword in one hand and a laurel in another.
Daython
Daython
LYNEMN
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/06/2004 09:30 PM CST
>If a man is caught stealing a loaf of bread, does the fact that he was stealing it to feed his children mitigate the crime?
Nope.
Cavalier Calemnon
Nope.
Cavalier Calemnon
SEORDMIR
Re: gods and the paladin code
02/17/2004 04:07 PM CST
>The real agrument is, was this really a "crime" at all.<
And as you said the answer is absolutely in most mortal societies. Anything which breaks mortal laws is a crime. But a better question is, with regard to the role of the Paladin, is a Paladin an upholder of mortal law and justice or is he or she more intrested in attrocities commited against the people as a whole, their faith, and their holdings (i.e. lands and property).
From my own point of view, I see myself as having an obligation to the man whose children are starving, as it would be against my moral code as a Paladin to let the man and his children suffer. I would probably pay the merchant myself for more than enough food for the man and his children or if I did not have it, I would work for it. But I would also let the merchant know that his cruelty and gluttony would not go unnoticed and that death comes quickest for those most deserving. But generally speaking, I do not see a Paladin as being concerned with the upholding of provincial law. Thats what city and town guards are for. I think a Paladin steps in when a large cause needs to be championed or to defend his or her people, lands, and faith against those whom would do them harm. Somehow I sincerely doubt that the Paladin was given his or her divine abilities to serve as town guards out on the streets to police pick pockets.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
And as you said the answer is absolutely in most mortal societies. Anything which breaks mortal laws is a crime. But a better question is, with regard to the role of the Paladin, is a Paladin an upholder of mortal law and justice or is he or she more intrested in attrocities commited against the people as a whole, their faith, and their holdings (i.e. lands and property).
From my own point of view, I see myself as having an obligation to the man whose children are starving, as it would be against my moral code as a Paladin to let the man and his children suffer. I would probably pay the merchant myself for more than enough food for the man and his children or if I did not have it, I would work for it. But I would also let the merchant know that his cruelty and gluttony would not go unnoticed and that death comes quickest for those most deserving. But generally speaking, I do not see a Paladin as being concerned with the upholding of provincial law. Thats what city and town guards are for. I think a Paladin steps in when a large cause needs to be championed or to defend his or her people, lands, and faith against those whom would do them harm. Somehow I sincerely doubt that the Paladin was given his or her divine abilities to serve as town guards out on the streets to police pick pockets.
Lord Krymson Dyne Ebonrune
Dark Paladin of Urrem'tier
