Helping the old halfling lady across the street so that she may spend quality time with her grandson, who has nothing better to do.
BYRONN
LENNONJON
Re: Pick away.
02/09/2003 07:51 PM CST
<<Helping the old halfling lady across the street so that she may spend quality time with her grandson, who has nothing better to do. >>
OK you win...
--Just a "clueless" Squire
OK you win...
--Just a "clueless" Squire
DRACONIANZEALOT
Re: Pick away.
02/09/2003 08:15 PM CST
<<Helping the old halfling lady across the street so that she may spend quality time with her grandson, who has nothing better to do. >>
>>OK you win...
What? Never! By helping the old lady across the street you are encouraging the age old curse that the elderly always leech of the young. Instead of getting herself across the street, she gets you to do it, resulting in an ever increasing number of fat, lazy, and whiny old people. If you left her to her own devices, running across the street would help keep her strength, agility, and stamina in tact. And if she fails in this task, natural selection makes room for the next generation. Also, give her grandson something to do by making him get his own grandma! Bah!
I bet the idiot who said "A picture is worth a thousand words" was an illiterate stable boy.
>>OK you win...
What? Never! By helping the old lady across the street you are encouraging the age old curse that the elderly always leech of the young. Instead of getting herself across the street, she gets you to do it, resulting in an ever increasing number of fat, lazy, and whiny old people. If you left her to her own devices, running across the street would help keep her strength, agility, and stamina in tact. And if she fails in this task, natural selection makes room for the next generation. Also, give her grandson something to do by making him get his own grandma! Bah!
I bet the idiot who said "A picture is worth a thousand words" was an illiterate stable boy.
ROTHJ
Re: Pick away.
02/09/2003 08:43 PM CST
Okay, I'm going to take up this argument, just because I need to practice. Bear with me.
While few could argue that helping an old lady across the street is a charitable action, there are several things that must be examined before it can definitively be labeled "good." Good itself, of course, is slippery to define, but we can assume that it has, in fact, been defined by others.
To begin with, one must look at the motivation for helping. It is one thing to help out of the proverbial kindness of one's heart, but for many people, acts of charity are done for rather selfish reasons. There is, to begin with, the "rush" one gets when helping, but furthermore, there is the praise that is heaped upon one for assisting in such a "charitable" way. These things can be rather addictive, and some people are not so much thinking of others as they are thinking of the praise they will undoubtedly receive for being such a nice young boy/girl.
Furthermore, it is possible that the act is nothing more than a show. Actions alone do not make one "good," as intentions are unarguably important. Someone who helps an old lady across the street because he wants to make things as easy as possible on her is much more "good" than someone who does so because he or she thinks society expects it of him or her.
The old lady's feelings must also come into play. If she is of the fiercely-independant sort that enjoys doing things under her own power, it'd be less than kind to assist her.
Effectively, the mentioned scenario can only be described as "good" if the helper is doing it of his or her own free will and with no selfish intentions in mind and if the old lady is grateful of the help.
Drongol's Player
While few could argue that helping an old lady across the street is a charitable action, there are several things that must be examined before it can definitively be labeled "good." Good itself, of course, is slippery to define, but we can assume that it has, in fact, been defined by others.
To begin with, one must look at the motivation for helping. It is one thing to help out of the proverbial kindness of one's heart, but for many people, acts of charity are done for rather selfish reasons. There is, to begin with, the "rush" one gets when helping, but furthermore, there is the praise that is heaped upon one for assisting in such a "charitable" way. These things can be rather addictive, and some people are not so much thinking of others as they are thinking of the praise they will undoubtedly receive for being such a nice young boy/girl.
Furthermore, it is possible that the act is nothing more than a show. Actions alone do not make one "good," as intentions are unarguably important. Someone who helps an old lady across the street because he wants to make things as easy as possible on her is much more "good" than someone who does so because he or she thinks society expects it of him or her.
The old lady's feelings must also come into play. If she is of the fiercely-independant sort that enjoys doing things under her own power, it'd be less than kind to assist her.
Effectively, the mentioned scenario can only be described as "good" if the helper is doing it of his or her own free will and with no selfish intentions in mind and if the old lady is grateful of the help.
Drongol's Player
LENNONJON
Re: Pick away.
02/09/2003 10:03 PM CST
<<Okay, I'm going to take up this argument, just because I need to practice. Bear with me.>>
I had the conception that the example given was a joke, as the original challenge asked for an example of something that was deemed to be "universally moral". The example given holds nothing universal in its nature, nor is it an example of what is moral vs. immoral. Helping the woman across the street is just a kind action, not an exhibition of morality and immorality. If I didn't help her would I be immoral?
However, Drongol's player I did enjoy your explanation of the underlying motives of seemingly altruistic actions. You have warmed my Neo-Darwinian heart.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
I had the conception that the example given was a joke, as the original challenge asked for an example of something that was deemed to be "universally moral". The example given holds nothing universal in its nature, nor is it an example of what is moral vs. immoral. Helping the woman across the street is just a kind action, not an exhibition of morality and immorality. If I didn't help her would I be immoral?
However, Drongol's player I did enjoy your explanation of the underlying motives of seemingly altruistic actions. You have warmed my Neo-Darwinian heart.
--Just a "clueless" Squire
HANESB
Re: Pick away.
02/10/2003 08:14 AM CST
The moniter seemed to think my other post was a bit too controversial, so here's some things that are a little less controversial. Good: moderation, selflessness, humility. Evil: greed, laziness.
Player of Linras Cauldrath
Player of Linras Cauldrath
BYRONN
Re: Pick away. (Thanks Drongol)
02/12/2003 01:14 PM CST
So this helped remind me about what it is that I was trying to say. How do we define morality? Well, it's said that morality progresses along various stages. Drongol pointed out that an action done just to be a good boy, good girl isn't really the best kind of morailty. There were some ethicists (I won't drop their names, but rest assured, this isn't just something I read on the back of a movie cover) who said that at it's highest level, people would act out of universal concerns (by which I mean concerns for the most people, or out of the greatest good). So what my question was, originally, is what are the criteria for some of this "universals" (I allow for the fact that they may not be truly universal.)
In other words, we need some ethical measuring sticks. And so, what is ethical in Elanthia? After all, if morality is conventionally created as Lennon et al hold, what are the conventions here? Are we seekers of balance, striving to keep things from being too ordered to the point of no originality and too chaotic? Are we seekers of the most ornate beauty?
Are we merely followers of divine will?
Who are we?
In other words, we need some ethical measuring sticks. And so, what is ethical in Elanthia? After all, if morality is conventionally created as Lennon et al hold, what are the conventions here? Are we seekers of balance, striving to keep things from being too ordered to the point of no originality and too chaotic? Are we seekers of the most ornate beauty?
Are we merely followers of divine will?
Who are we?
BYRONN
ROTHJ
Re: Pick away. (Thanks Drongol)
02/12/2003 01:48 PM CST
<<Drongol pointed out that an action done just to be a good boy, good girl isn't really the best kind of morailty.>>
Drongol didn't point out anything. Drongol's definitely an absolutist. Drongol's Player, on the other hand, believes in some universal truths, but does not believe that morality is a hard-line black-and-white issue.
Rather, it's safe to say that I believe that morality, to a certain extent, is a universal trait to all humanity. Humans are inherently social creatures, and as there is no society (to the best of my knowledge) which promotes such activities as theft and murder, there seems to be some sort of necessity for some morality in humanity.
Now, as far as DR goes, we don't need a "universal" sort of morality, and attempting to codify the stance of the Guild in all issues isn't going to be successful. Heck, look what happenned the last time the GMs tried to pull that one on us.
Drongol's Player
Drongol didn't point out anything. Drongol's definitely an absolutist. Drongol's Player, on the other hand, believes in some universal truths, but does not believe that morality is a hard-line black-and-white issue.
Rather, it's safe to say that I believe that morality, to a certain extent, is a universal trait to all humanity. Humans are inherently social creatures, and as there is no society (to the best of my knowledge) which promotes such activities as theft and murder, there seems to be some sort of necessity for some morality in humanity.
Now, as far as DR goes, we don't need a "universal" sort of morality, and attempting to codify the stance of the Guild in all issues isn't going to be successful. Heck, look what happenned the last time the GMs tried to pull that one on us.
Drongol's Player
BYRONN
Re: Pick away. (Thanks Drongol)
02/13/2003 06:27 PM CST
Ah yeah, thanks Drongol's player. Drongol's an absolutist, though? He always seemed kinda... mean.
Heh. No slights, just observations. ;)
Heh. No slights, just observations. ;)
