continued from: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Complaints/view/1228
>>2dumbarse: Everyone loves the holy weapon concept. I don't think I've met a single new paladin that didn't name that as the most exciting ability. It was mine when I learned about it. It's unfortunate it's got so many limitations. It should be a source of power and fun, not frustration.
A few simple fixes would go a long way toward making holy weapon "a source of power and fun" and not just a gimmick you bring out a few times a year.
• Remove the penalty for letting your weapon run out of charges. Holy weapons should only require one recharging before being fully usable. Holy weapons that have run out of charges would continue to function as standard weapons until they are recharged. (Currently, if you allow the weapon to run out of charges, it has to be recharged twice before you can use it again. It takes five minutes to recharge the weapon, and there is a one-hour timer between rechargings. If you make the mistake of using the weapon between those two rechargings, you have to start over.)
• Release more recharging locations and/or additional portable recharging icons (that aren't gated behind payquests)
• The holy weapon changing quest (which can be done once every 365 days) should not destroy the previous weapon. This would allow Paladins to use special weapons without worrying about losing them if they decide to change their holy weapons later.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
ISHARON
SHADOW7988
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/18/2016 07:39 PM CDT
Awesome post Isharon (you basically answered what I posted in the complaint folder, I wish I finished that before I took a dinner break, ahh life happens).
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/18/2016 08:22 PM CDT
When Ssra was back for a brief stint last year he had some great ideas for expansion of the holy weapons. Not sure what happened to him but some of the ideas were:
1) Make them a summonable weapon, not a mundane weapon that you have in your sheath. That is to say the weapon you use for a holy weapon becomes summonable only. If you have a black soul you cannot summon it.
2) Allow more than one. Perhaps every 50 circles after 50th you get to add a new one to the mix.
3) Tie them to soulstate, so that the power of the holy weapon is related to the purity of your soul.
My own additions:
1) Let a holy weapon in the hands of a Paladin with pristine soul + the Holy Warrior spell active = a lead like bonus for a solo Paladin. This makes him/her a holy warrior of the immortals.
2) As stated by Isharon, stop destroying the weapons if a new one is created.
3) Make a separate quest for a holy icon (portable recharge station) to be created out of a regular soulstone (not the kind you purchase) + item of choice. These, like the holy weapons, would be non-transferable to others.
As stated, the holy weapon really is a unique feature of our guild that young Paladins look forward to. Let's keep them that way.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
1) Make them a summonable weapon, not a mundane weapon that you have in your sheath. That is to say the weapon you use for a holy weapon becomes summonable only. If you have a black soul you cannot summon it.
2) Allow more than one. Perhaps every 50 circles after 50th you get to add a new one to the mix.
3) Tie them to soulstate, so that the power of the holy weapon is related to the purity of your soul.
My own additions:
1) Let a holy weapon in the hands of a Paladin with pristine soul + the Holy Warrior spell active = a lead like bonus for a solo Paladin. This makes him/her a holy warrior of the immortals.
2) As stated by Isharon, stop destroying the weapons if a new one is created.
3) Make a separate quest for a holy icon (portable recharge station) to be created out of a regular soulstone (not the kind you purchase) + item of choice. These, like the holy weapons, would be non-transferable to others.
As stated, the holy weapon really is a unique feature of our guild that young Paladins look forward to. Let's keep them that way.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
DERIUM
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/18/2016 08:38 PM CDT
> 1) Make them a summonable weapon, not a mundane weapon that you have in your sheath. That is to say the weapon you use for a holy weapon becomes summonable only. If you have a black soul you cannot summon it.
> As stated, the holy weapon really is a unique feature of our guild that young Paladins look forward to. Let's keep them that way.
cough: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Summon_weapon
Seriously though, good ideas. It's more warrior mage like than cleric like.
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/18/2016 09:20 PM CDT
>cough: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Summon_weapon<
Your point is what exactly? Because I used the word summonable you assume it is the same thing? There is a difference between summoning a weapon from an elemental plane of existence and one that is placed into the hand of a Paladin by an immortal.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
Your point is what exactly? Because I used the word summonable you assume it is the same thing? There is a difference between summoning a weapon from an elemental plane of existence and one that is placed into the hand of a Paladin by an immortal.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
DERIUM
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/18/2016 11:33 PM CDT
> Your point is what exactly?
Do you want something unique in function or just flavor text? Summonable weapons are the warrior mage thing. I'm not saying that Paladins shouldn't get them to. I like the concept, but I see (some) of the same people arguing for uniqueness and then turning around and arguing for other guild's abilities. It's confusing.
Do you want something unique in function or just flavor text? Summonable weapons are the warrior mage thing. I'm not saying that Paladins shouldn't get them to. I like the concept, but I see (some) of the same people arguing for uniqueness and then turning around and arguing for other guild's abilities. It's confusing.
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 12:58 AM CDT
>Summonable weapons are the warrior mage thing.<
It is a completely different concept. These are weapons you take with you on the holy weapon quest. You place this weapon on the altar much like now. However, the weapon is consumed and becomes a summonable weapon. The weapon is the weapon that was consumed, yet it is granted to you by the gods. It is not called by using a metal ingot and drawing it from an elemental plane. It is a premade weapon of your choice, that retains it's stats, look, etc. that is sacrificed to the immortals and then able to be called upon when needed. This seems extremely Holy Warrioresque to me.
I do not see how these concepts are the same. If you argument is that one guild has an item that is called into existence from non-existence and therefore it is the same, then you would have to keep that consistent to Moonmages and their Moonblade spell, which I do believe existed before Warrior Mage summoning did.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
It is a completely different concept. These are weapons you take with you on the holy weapon quest. You place this weapon on the altar much like now. However, the weapon is consumed and becomes a summonable weapon. The weapon is the weapon that was consumed, yet it is granted to you by the gods. It is not called by using a metal ingot and drawing it from an elemental plane. It is a premade weapon of your choice, that retains it's stats, look, etc. that is sacrificed to the immortals and then able to be called upon when needed. This seems extremely Holy Warrioresque to me.
I do not see how these concepts are the same. If you argument is that one guild has an item that is called into existence from non-existence and therefore it is the same, then you would have to keep that consistent to Moonmages and their Moonblade spell, which I do believe existed before Warrior Mage summoning did.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
PRIMEQ
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 02:04 AM CDT
Hey guys. Disclaimer: I've never played a Paladin and only really just stumbled into this thread, so I haven't read everything fully in detail.
That said, glancing at what your holy weapon is and what I can infer it does currently -- it does not sound fun, nor powerful. It has charges? You have to recharge it at specific altars? You have to DESTROY it if you want a new one? Wow.
Here are my thoughts for what would make a really cool holy weapon:
- Quest to imbue a weapon with holy power. If you already have one with holy power, you transfer the power to a new weapon, leaving the old one intact but inert. You should never need to recharge a holy weapon again.
- You should be able to name a Holy Foe, and if you kill any such foe with your holy weapon, it regenerates your ability pool (soul?). Foes can be any creature type (e.g. goblin, germish'din, Elpalzi), and you can re-choose every X months.
- The weapon should have a permanent Bless effect. If Bless does not affect Necromancers, the weapon should have something extra that does. If permabless is too powerful, consider allowing it for the Holy Foe only (and Necros).
- The weapon should be permanently increased in damage, by a small amount.
- You should be able to "activate" the weapon and slowly drain your special ability pool to fuel it with greater power. Greater bless effect, greater damage, a small accuracy bonus, glow (lighting the area), possibly enhanced lead. There should be a small chance of an Immortal guiding your hand to justice -- essentially a greater crit chance with messaging.
- The weapon should be bonded to you and always return to your hand immediately on death.
- Navesi
That said, glancing at what your holy weapon is and what I can infer it does currently -- it does not sound fun, nor powerful. It has charges? You have to recharge it at specific altars? You have to DESTROY it if you want a new one? Wow.
Here are my thoughts for what would make a really cool holy weapon:
- Quest to imbue a weapon with holy power. If you already have one with holy power, you transfer the power to a new weapon, leaving the old one intact but inert. You should never need to recharge a holy weapon again.
- You should be able to name a Holy Foe, and if you kill any such foe with your holy weapon, it regenerates your ability pool (soul?). Foes can be any creature type (e.g. goblin, germish'din, Elpalzi), and you can re-choose every X months.
- The weapon should have a permanent Bless effect. If Bless does not affect Necromancers, the weapon should have something extra that does. If permabless is too powerful, consider allowing it for the Holy Foe only (and Necros).
- The weapon should be permanently increased in damage, by a small amount.
- You should be able to "activate" the weapon and slowly drain your special ability pool to fuel it with greater power. Greater bless effect, greater damage, a small accuracy bonus, glow (lighting the area), possibly enhanced lead. There should be a small chance of an Immortal guiding your hand to justice -- essentially a greater crit chance with messaging.
- The weapon should be bonded to you and always return to your hand immediately on death.
- Navesi
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 10:22 AM CDT
I've come to really dislike the fact that the holy weapon code is attached to the actual weapon. If you lose your weapon due to a game bug or something, it's a pain to get a new one. It's also apparently prone to breakage, where I don't think it can be fixed without just replacing the weapon and making you do the quest again. If you lose your weapon, you can't replace it. Any weapon replaced is a weapon gone, so forget holifying your favorite weapon, which is counter-intuitive.
I like the summon weapon idea, particularly because there's already code for it (warrior mages). I like the idea of those weapons enhancing paladin spells and abilities as well (sort of like a paladin's ritual ability focus). I think I prefer, however, the idea of holy weapon being a summoned augmentation for a weapon rather than a summoned weapon because: a) I really like the idea of paladins merging part of themselves with mundane armaments, thematically, rather than outright summoning them like a warmage and b) I've never been crazy about the idea of summoned shields due to their impermanence, and I'd really love to have a "holy" shield.
I like the summon weapon idea, particularly because there's already code for it (warrior mages). I like the idea of those weapons enhancing paladin spells and abilities as well (sort of like a paladin's ritual ability focus). I think I prefer, however, the idea of holy weapon being a summoned augmentation for a weapon rather than a summoned weapon because: a) I really like the idea of paladins merging part of themselves with mundane armaments, thematically, rather than outright summoning them like a warmage and b) I've never been crazy about the idea of summoned shields due to their impermanence, and I'd really love to have a "holy" shield.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 10:32 AM CDT
>Do you want something unique in function or just flavor text? Summonable weapons are the warrior mage thing. I'm not saying that Paladins shouldn't get them to. I like the concept, but I see (some) of the same people arguing for uniqueness and then turning around and arguing for other guild's abilities. It's confusing.
I'm responding to this separately because I think there's an important point to be made for every guild. Reusing guild spells/abilities and making them unique by adding flavor text or changing a little about how they work is not a bad thing and is different from striving for uniqueness in a thematic sense. We should all be clamoring for more copy/paste because reuse is the foundation upon which software engineering is built, and there are a number of reasons why that's the case. When you have a ton of unique and fragmented systems, you have the mess we're in now where it's hard for anyone to even fix some of our broken abilities, let alone redesign them.
Forgive me if this comes across a little preachy, but we all should want the game to facilitate GM collaboration.
I'm responding to this separately because I think there's an important point to be made for every guild. Reusing guild spells/abilities and making them unique by adding flavor text or changing a little about how they work is not a bad thing and is different from striving for uniqueness in a thematic sense. We should all be clamoring for more copy/paste because reuse is the foundation upon which software engineering is built, and there are a number of reasons why that's the case. When you have a ton of unique and fragmented systems, you have the mess we're in now where it's hard for anyone to even fix some of our broken abilities, let alone redesign them.
Forgive me if this comes across a little preachy, but we all should want the game to facilitate GM collaboration.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 10:39 AM CDT
>>I'm responding to this separately because I think there's an important point to be made for every guild. Reusing guild spells/abilities and making them unique by adding flavor text or changing a little about how they work is not a bad thing and is different from striving for uniqueness in a thematic sense. We should all be clamoring for more copy/paste because reuse is the foundation upon which software engineering is built, and there are a number of reasons why that's the case. When you have a ton of unique and fragmented systems, you have the mess we're in now where it's hard for anyone to even fix some of our broken abilities, let alone redesign them.
I don't disagree with this, and the magic system is a great example of this, but I also recall how GMs mention some of the more arduous parts of making things is the flavor text.
Speaking from my own (very limited) experience, making my first crafting society was easy. Making my second was okay. Making my third and beyond got painful because I realized I could only describe a hallway and private rooms for crafting so many different ways until they all look the same. The same goes when I sometimes give item ideas as quest end-prizes, or a shop item, or etc. Making one or two is no big deal, but when you have to describe one item ten different ways is when things can start to go sideways.
This isn't to say your view on how to structure things is wrong (it absolutely isn't in my eyes), and I'm not saying you have the following mindset specifically, but I think people sometimes devalue how much work it can be to make something sound unique, even if they have the same underlying thing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I don't disagree with this, and the magic system is a great example of this, but I also recall how GMs mention some of the more arduous parts of making things is the flavor text.
Speaking from my own (very limited) experience, making my first crafting society was easy. Making my second was okay. Making my third and beyond got painful because I realized I could only describe a hallway and private rooms for crafting so many different ways until they all look the same. The same goes when I sometimes give item ideas as quest end-prizes, or a shop item, or etc. Making one or two is no big deal, but when you have to describe one item ten different ways is when things can start to go sideways.
This isn't to say your view on how to structure things is wrong (it absolutely isn't in my eyes), and I'm not saying you have the following mindset specifically, but I think people sometimes devalue how much work it can be to make something sound unique, even if they have the same underlying thing.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 11:23 AM CDT
>I think people sometimes devalue how much work it can be to make something sound unique, even if they have the same underlying thing.
You're absolutely right, and I hope I didn't come across that way. The creativity that goes into making the pieces work and writing the interface for all of this stuff is often what impresses me most about the work that goes into the game. I mean, I have a hard time thinking of how to describe an alteration that's not completely and utterly dumb and anachronistic in a bad way.
Ideally, that should be the hardest part IMO. If it's not, then you have a system that's unnecessarily complex (i.e. bad design).
You're absolutely right, and I hope I didn't come across that way. The creativity that goes into making the pieces work and writing the interface for all of this stuff is often what impresses me most about the work that goes into the game. I mean, I have a hard time thinking of how to describe an alteration that's not completely and utterly dumb and anachronistic in a bad way.
Ideally, that should be the hardest part IMO. If it's not, then you have a system that's unnecessarily complex (i.e. bad design).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 11:25 AM CDT
>>You're absolutely right, and I hope I didn't come across that way.
You totally didn't, but I did want to put a spotlight on how the lift to do the "different coat of paint" can be a notable one.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
You totally didn't, but I did want to put a spotlight on how the lift to do the "different coat of paint" can be a notable one.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 12:13 PM CDT
>- You should be able to name a Holy Foe, and if you kill any such foe with your holy weapon, it regenerates your ability pool (soul?). Foes can be any creature type (e.g. goblin, germish'din, Elpalzi), and you can re-choose every X months.<
This is an interesting idea. Paladin's already get this with killing undead/cursed creatures that are a "risk" for the Paladin (random soul boosts). However, to keep Paladin's from simply choosing shipyard rats, going on a murdering spree in town, then running back to rats to fix themselves the foe needs to be somewhat at level.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
This is an interesting idea. Paladin's already get this with killing undead/cursed creatures that are a "risk" for the Paladin (random soul boosts). However, to keep Paladin's from simply choosing shipyard rats, going on a murdering spree in town, then running back to rats to fix themselves the foe needs to be somewhat at level.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 12:19 PM CDT
>I like the summon weapon idea, particularly because there's already code for it (warrior mages). I like the idea of those weapons enhancing paladin spells and abilities as well (sort of like a paladin's ritual ability focus). I think I prefer, however, the idea of holy weapon being a summoned augmentation for a weapon rather than a summoned weapon because: a) I really like the idea of paladins merging part of themselves with mundane armaments, thematically, rather than outright summoning them like a warmage and b) I've never been crazy about the idea of summoned shields due to their impermanence, and I'd really love to have a "holy" shield.<
I can get behind this. The only reason I suggests a completely summonable weapon was because that was what Ssra had envisioned.
As far as a holy shield is concerned:
I'd like to see more than just a holy shield, but holy armor. Where as a Paladin grows he could get more pieces of armor holified. Perhaps every 25 circles or so s/he gets to have a piece made holy. Each piece perhaps enhances a certain thing or grants some sort of mundane effect. Then once all the armor is holy, when worn in it's entirety and holding a holy weapon it gives some sort of combined effect including a unique title: Holy Crusader of (Chosen Immortal).
I know this (and most of what we discuss) is just a pipe dream, but occasionally it's nice to see that others still care about this guild.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
I can get behind this. The only reason I suggests a completely summonable weapon was because that was what Ssra had envisioned.
As far as a holy shield is concerned:
I'd like to see more than just a holy shield, but holy armor. Where as a Paladin grows he could get more pieces of armor holified. Perhaps every 25 circles or so s/he gets to have a piece made holy. Each piece perhaps enhances a certain thing or grants some sort of mundane effect. Then once all the armor is holy, when worn in it's entirety and holding a holy weapon it gives some sort of combined effect including a unique title: Holy Crusader of (Chosen Immortal).
I know this (and most of what we discuss) is just a pipe dream, but occasionally it's nice to see that others still care about this guild.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
DERIUM
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 12:34 PM CDT
> However, to keep Paladin's from simply choosing shipyard rats, going on a murdering spree in town, then running back to rats to fix themselves the foe needs to be somewhat at level.
If this became a thing then I think the paladin should get to choose a noun rather than a specific creature. Goblins, for example could be the goblins out the west gate of crossings, north gate of riverhaven, or snow goblins.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 02:44 PM CDT
>I'd like to see more than just a holy shield, but holy armor. Where as a Paladin grows he could get more pieces of armor holified. Perhaps every 25 circles or so s/he gets to have a piece made holy. Each piece perhaps enhances a certain thing or grants some sort of mundane effect. Then once all the armor is holy, when worn in it's entirety and holding a holy weapon it gives some sort of combined effect including a unique title: Holy Crusader of (Chosen Immortal).
That would be exciting. You could sort of accomplish a lot of this with a new glyph concept: semi-permanent empowering glyphs. They might take more effort than a traditional glyph, but would bestow the same properties as those granted through the holy weapon quest, plus extras.
There's an obvious question, "Why do it that way if we already have a holy weapon system or could have an independent holy armaments suite of abilities?" Same results but it's lot simpler. I'm a big fan of expanding glyphs this way and merging abilities where it makes sense. In theory, you can even make smite a glyph. Why not?
That would be exciting. You could sort of accomplish a lot of this with a new glyph concept: semi-permanent empowering glyphs. They might take more effort than a traditional glyph, but would bestow the same properties as those granted through the holy weapon quest, plus extras.
There's an obvious question, "Why do it that way if we already have a holy weapon system or could have an independent holy armaments suite of abilities?" Same results but it's lot simpler. I'm a big fan of expanding glyphs this way and merging abilities where it makes sense. In theory, you can even make smite a glyph. Why not?
THAYET
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 02:46 PM CDT
I'm inclined to suggest meeting halfway on the summoning thing. Decouple it from being linked to a specific weapon in the way it is now, and instead have the quest result in transforming any weapon a Paladin touches and uses into their holy weapon. It's an extension of a Paladin's soul in a fashion that way and fits better with what exists of their guild lore.
You could even retain some level of attunement with a specific weapon by having it gradually build up to become more powerful after using it a short-ish period of time (~10 days?) but breaking that link should only mean you need to rebuild it again with something else, it doesn't mean you lose your weapon or can't use what you had for awhile.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
You could even retain some level of attunement with a specific weapon by having it gradually build up to become more powerful after using it a short-ish period of time (~10 days?) but breaking that link should only mean you need to rebuild it again with something else, it doesn't mean you lose your weapon or can't use what you had for awhile.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 02:53 PM CDT
>I'm inclined to suggest meeting halfway on the summoning thing. Decouple it from being linked to a specific weapon in the way it is now, and instead have the quest result in transforming any weapon a Paladin touches and uses into their holy weapon. It's an extension of a Paladin's soul in a fashion that way and fits better with what exists of their guild lore.
You could even retain some level of attunement with a specific weapon by having it gradually build up to become more powerful after using it a short-ish period of time (~10 days?) but breaking that link should only mean you need to rebuild it again with something else, it doesn't mean you lose your weapon or can't use what you had for awhile.<
This is an interesting idea. The only concern is whether or not this is overpowered. The current bonus given to a holy weapon is pretty nice, but limited in that it is only on one weapon. If this same bonus is applied to all possible weapons in a Paladins arsenal, I could see this as being a bit OP.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
You could even retain some level of attunement with a specific weapon by having it gradually build up to become more powerful after using it a short-ish period of time (~10 days?) but breaking that link should only mean you need to rebuild it again with something else, it doesn't mean you lose your weapon or can't use what you had for awhile.<
This is an interesting idea. The only concern is whether or not this is overpowered. The current bonus given to a holy weapon is pretty nice, but limited in that it is only on one weapon. If this same bonus is applied to all possible weapons in a Paladins arsenal, I could see this as being a bit OP.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
THAYET
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 02:56 PM CDT
I don't think it's really OP, particularly if you only get the full bonus with one weapon at a time and it requires a time investment. Everything else they use can get a milder version of it.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 03:38 PM CDT
I like it, but I think it raises a good practical question in, "How is that different from a spell like RUE and DA?" In theory, you could make all holy weapon/armor/whatever functionality a spell, even a ritual spell. It would no doubt be better than what we've got now and the magic system's already rewritten, so that's a big plus, but does it make more sense as a spell than an ability?
I'd personally rather see all these things that augment weapons and armor function as abilities, but I'm not opposed to having them as spells. Both options offer a big improvement and that's all I really care about when it comes to this guild's toys.
I'd personally rather see all these things that augment weapons and armor function as abilities, but I'm not opposed to having them as spells. Both options offer a big improvement and that's all I really care about when it comes to this guild's toys.
ISHARON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:01 PM CDT
>>2dumbarse: I've come to really dislike the fact that the holy weapon code is attached to the actual weapon. If you lose your weapon due to a game bug or something, it's a pain to get a new one. It's also apparently prone to breakage, where I don't think it can be fixed without just replacing the weapon and making you do the quest again. If you lose your weapon, you can't replace it. Any weapon replaced is a weapon gone, so forget holifying your favorite weapon, which is counter-intuitive.
Thematically, I like that it's attached to a particular weapon -- there is something to be said for a Paladin having a sacred bond with one weapon -- but it could use some of those QoL changes to make it more fun and less frustrating. I also wouldn't mind seeing some additional holy weapon features.
In the past, I've also suggested an analogous holy shield + holy armor concept:
>>My take on that theme would be the concept of holy or animated armor: sanctifying a shield and/or single suit of armor of the same class, analogous to the way a mundane weapon can become a holy weapon. (Some of the holy weapon messaging seems to imply that the holy weapon has a spiritual essence if not sentience.) Once animated with this spiritual essence, the Paladin has a means for extending his spiritual influence to armor, using his soul-based glyphs to interact with the armor and manipulate it in various ways. (In the same vein, glyphs could also interact with a Paladin's holy weapon.) Bonus: a "holy armor" system would give Paladins an incentive to use a single class of armor instead of the much-maligned "clown suits" that are used for TDP farming.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
Thematically, I like that it's attached to a particular weapon -- there is something to be said for a Paladin having a sacred bond with one weapon -- but it could use some of those QoL changes to make it more fun and less frustrating. I also wouldn't mind seeing some additional holy weapon features.
In the past, I've also suggested an analogous holy shield + holy armor concept:
>>My take on that theme would be the concept of holy or animated armor: sanctifying a shield and/or single suit of armor of the same class, analogous to the way a mundane weapon can become a holy weapon. (Some of the holy weapon messaging seems to imply that the holy weapon has a spiritual essence if not sentience.) Once animated with this spiritual essence, the Paladin has a means for extending his spiritual influence to armor, using his soul-based glyphs to interact with the armor and manipulate it in various ways. (In the same vein, glyphs could also interact with a Paladin's holy weapon.) Bonus: a "holy armor" system would give Paladins an incentive to use a single class of armor instead of the much-maligned "clown suits" that are used for TDP farming.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
SHADOW7988
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:17 PM CDT
I really don't get the whole Lore of the Paladin and their soul.
I touched on this earlier, I'm going to flesh this out with my idealized version of what I believe the Paladin and their soul is about and how it could possibly pertain to Holy items.
The Paladin after going through a quest can imbue their soul and make it more physical by bonding that soul into a weapon (and also a shield possibly at some point, maybe other items too). Because this weapon is partially of their soul the Paladin can readily put this dual state thing within their personal soul stone. Allowing a home for that item.
(My concept mechanically is that the soul amulet, bracelet, or whatever not becomes an even more advanced scripted item that essentially has the code of each individual's Holy Weapon encoded into them. The item doesn't truly get lost. It'll have some type of safety feature so that the item isn't able to be duplicated in any part of the item being replicated in the regular use of the soul stone).
Perhaps instead of charges, the power of the item can be relative to how pristine the character's soul is. Actually using the item depletes the soul of the Paladin only to neutral. However may case is that if that's the case it needs to have some oomph to deplete the Paladin's soul state like such.
My argument with these charged items is really they need to go. Something that has consistency and reliability should be the norm across all guilds, for all items.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
I touched on this earlier, I'm going to flesh this out with my idealized version of what I believe the Paladin and their soul is about and how it could possibly pertain to Holy items.
The Paladin after going through a quest can imbue their soul and make it more physical by bonding that soul into a weapon (and also a shield possibly at some point, maybe other items too). Because this weapon is partially of their soul the Paladin can readily put this dual state thing within their personal soul stone. Allowing a home for that item.
(My concept mechanically is that the soul amulet, bracelet, or whatever not becomes an even more advanced scripted item that essentially has the code of each individual's Holy Weapon encoded into them. The item doesn't truly get lost. It'll have some type of safety feature so that the item isn't able to be duplicated in any part of the item being replicated in the regular use of the soul stone).
Perhaps instead of charges, the power of the item can be relative to how pristine the character's soul is. Actually using the item depletes the soul of the Paladin only to neutral. However may case is that if that's the case it needs to have some oomph to deplete the Paladin's soul state like such.
My argument with these charged items is really they need to go. Something that has consistency and reliability should be the norm across all guilds, for all items.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:26 PM CDT
>>I really don't get the whole Lore of the Paladin and their soul.
So, the soul is an organ of the body made out of spirit-stuff. It is non-corporeal but real and vital; if your soul gets mushed up or severed you drop dead.
Paladin souls have been transformed (sanctified) via some means related to joining the guild. They become in and of themselves a power source of some kind, but also become susceptible to corruption and degredation. This is, for reasons currently not publicized but possibly guessable, based on a rather rigid system that echoes what a certain Immmortal might call ethics.
Paladins are free to think, feel, and in most ways do whatever they want, but their souls are tied to this system and will respond accordingly. It is currently unknown if this system is set in stone or if there is possibility for other systems Paladinhood.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
So, the soul is an organ of the body made out of spirit-stuff. It is non-corporeal but real and vital; if your soul gets mushed up or severed you drop dead.
Paladin souls have been transformed (sanctified) via some means related to joining the guild. They become in and of themselves a power source of some kind, but also become susceptible to corruption and degredation. This is, for reasons currently not publicized but possibly guessable, based on a rather rigid system that echoes what a certain Immmortal might call ethics.
Paladins are free to think, feel, and in most ways do whatever they want, but their souls are tied to this system and will respond accordingly. It is currently unknown if this system is set in stone or if there is possibility for other systems Paladinhood.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHADOW7988
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:32 PM CDT
So by this information shouldn't non-corpeal entities be doing spirit damage not vital damage?
Also it seems that it is a power source to a Paladin so perhaps my concept has minor stability to stand group. And the soul is non-corporeal so in a matter of speaking having the Holy Weapon be-able to be stored in a non-corporeal way, especially after being sanctified through a special quest/ritual what not.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
Also it seems that it is a power source to a Paladin so perhaps my concept has minor stability to stand group. And the soul is non-corporeal so in a matter of speaking having the Holy Weapon be-able to be stored in a non-corporeal way, especially after being sanctified through a special quest/ritual what not.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:32 PM CDT
>So, the soul is an organ of the body made out of spirit-stuff. It is non-corporeal but real and vital; if your soul gets mushed up or severed you drop dead.<
If this is the case, then shouldn't Paladin have better control over their spirits? That is to say, perhaps they should have some sort of natural resistance against spirit-based attacks?
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
If this is the case, then shouldn't Paladin have better control over their spirits? That is to say, perhaps they should have some sort of natural resistance against spirit-based attacks?
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:38 PM CDT
>>So by this information shouldn't non-corpeal entities be doing spirit damage not vital damage?
We usually handwave that noncorporeals can corporalize at will, such as to beat the tar out of you. Though the real answer is noncorps are already a pain to fight and making them even more exotic (such as bypassing shields/armor) would be counterproductive.
>>If this is the case, then shouldn't Paladin have better control over their spirits? That is to say, perhaps they should have some sort of natural resistance against spirit-based attacks?
I'm personally not a fan of always-on resistances (see: BMR), but some sort of defense against spirit attacks would be a perfectly valid form of guild dev, yes.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
We usually handwave that noncorporeals can corporalize at will, such as to beat the tar out of you. Though the real answer is noncorps are already a pain to fight and making them even more exotic (such as bypassing shields/armor) would be counterproductive.
>>If this is the case, then shouldn't Paladin have better control over their spirits? That is to say, perhaps they should have some sort of natural resistance against spirit-based attacks?
I'm personally not a fan of always-on resistances (see: BMR), but some sort of defense against spirit attacks would be a perfectly valid form of guild dev, yes.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHADOW7988
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:41 PM CDT
>> >>If this is the case, then shouldn't Paladin have better control over their spirits? That is to say, perhaps they should have some sort of natural resistance against spirit-based attacks?
>>I'm personally not a fan of always-on resistances (see: BMR), but some sort of defense against spirit attacks would be a perfectly valid form of guild dev, yes.
I'm liking getting some Lore of the Paladins and how it may be used for guild dev!
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
>>I'm personally not a fan of always-on resistances (see: BMR), but some sort of defense against spirit attacks would be a perfectly valid form of guild dev, yes.
I'm liking getting some Lore of the Paladins and how it may be used for guild dev!
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:48 PM CDT
>I'm personally not a fan of always-on resistances (see: BMR), but some sort of defense against spirit attacks would be a perfectly valid form of guild dev, yes.
Fairly limited, though. Not many things/guilds touch spirit. I'd be more interested in spirit channeling stuff in addition to resistance and restoration, but that seems to fall squarely in the domain of Clerics if I'm not mistaken. That is, unless things change for that guild in parallel.
Fairly limited, though. Not many things/guilds touch spirit. I'd be more interested in spirit channeling stuff in addition to resistance and restoration, but that seems to fall squarely in the domain of Clerics if I'm not mistaken. That is, unless things change for that guild in parallel.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 09:52 PM CDT
Scratch that. I thought about it more a second after I posted and channeling stuff from spirit would probably be a detractor for new paladins since spirit deaths are a thing and they really suck. It could be a situation worse than the hard mode guild casting repeatedly with really high DO.
LENNONJON
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 10:00 PM CDT
>Scratch that. I thought about it more a second after I posted and channeling stuff from spirit would probably be a detractor for new paladins since spirit deaths are a thing and they really suck. It could be a situation worse than the hard mode guild casting repeatedly with really high DO.<
It might be OK if it was coupled with the proposed resistance to negative spirit effects and if spirit health was brought to the same calculations as 3.0 vitality and stamina, which it doesn't seem it was.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
It might be OK if it was coupled with the proposed resistance to negative spirit effects and if spirit health was brought to the same calculations as 3.0 vitality and stamina, which it doesn't seem it was.
--Just a Squire
Riveted to the metal is a small copper plaque depicting a shield crossed with a longsword overlaying a field of thirteen stars. Encircling the design are the words, "Many Faces - One God."
2DUMBARSE
Re: Holy Weapon QoL Suggestions
05/19/2016 11:11 PM CDT
True. Maybe a minimum, too, beyond which your spirit abilities just stop working, like TR. I remember pre-TR tweak how frustrating it was getting stuck in an unbreakable disabled state (e.g. unconscious) before I had a chance to release. Had to just wait for the spirit death, which meant no rezz, lost scrolls and favor reduction.
If spirit becomes the driving force for paladin abilities, which is going a step further than we've gone so far in this conversation, I hope soul pool and smite pool get the axe. That would be a lot of resources to manage otherwise.
If spirit becomes the driving force for paladin abilities, which is going a step further than we've gone so far in this conversation, I hope soul pool and smite pool get the axe. That would be a lot of resources to manage otherwise.
