I was reviewing the Paladin-centric survey data we collected and wanted to touch base on a two issues that got strongly brought up that we haven't already talked about.
SACRED INSIGHT:
Yes, it's not relevant ability in today's DR. I have a few ideas to expand the concept, but at the same time I hadn't considered it a priority because, well, it's not really hurting anything being alone in its corner. I can up it on the priority list if there's a strong desire to see it do better, but otherwise I was planning to refurbish your combat-oriented abilities and spells before going there.
GLYPH WARD VS TM:
There's a fundamental problem here in that with how Magic 3 works, completely nullifying someone's ability to target is a huge, huge deal. I'm happy to consider middle-ground approaches, where you hinder TM in some other way, but the old immunity-to-targeting thing just doesn't work in the DR3 world.
That said, as currently written the Glyph is supposed to function as a targeting interrupt, which is a fascinating but possibly too niche idea. Is this flat out not working, or was that never communicated?
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
ASHAMAN1
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:11 PM CST
>>That said, as currently written the Glyph is supposed to function as a targeting interrupt, which is a fascinating but possibly too niche idea. Is this flat out not working, or was that never communicated?
GoWard got nerfed a few times in the past few years from "Break targetting, prevent retargetting for short window" to "Penalize targetting" to "Says it penalizes targetted, you won't feel it, oh, and it's got a big ol cooldown now", without ANY notification from Staff. We got to figure it out the fun way, and when we brought it up the usual response was along the lines of "it does stuff in combat?".
I'm honestly not 100% sure what it's actually doing now. If it's a penalty to the fella aiming at me, I can't tell the difference with or without it. It's a bummer, it was one of my favorite tricks to someone aiming at me outside of stealth, and now it's not worth the keystrokes.
Samsaren
GoWard got nerfed a few times in the past few years from "Break targetting, prevent retargetting for short window" to "Penalize targetting" to "Says it penalizes targetted, you won't feel it, oh, and it's got a big ol cooldown now", without ANY notification from Staff. We got to figure it out the fun way, and when we brought it up the usual response was along the lines of "it does stuff in combat?".
I'm honestly not 100% sure what it's actually doing now. If it's a penalty to the fella aiming at me, I can't tell the difference with or without it. It's a bummer, it was one of my favorite tricks to someone aiming at me outside of stealth, and now it's not worth the keystrokes.
Samsaren
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:34 PM CST
>>I'm honestly not 100% sure what it's actually doing now. If it's a penalty to the fella aiming at me, I can't tell the difference with or without it. It's a bummer, it was one of my favorite tricks to someone aiming at me outside of stealth, and now it's not worth the keystrokes.
What it's supposed to be doing right now is if someone is already targeting you, it disrupts the targeting matrix and forces them to do it all over again. I am uncertain if this is actually working because I haven't done practical tests yet (still have most of my energy bound up in Smite and Guildskill at this seond).
I mean, whether or not it works right now we can totally come up with a different mechanic that has some meaningful utility. I was just curious more than anything.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
What it's supposed to be doing right now is if someone is already targeting you, it disrupts the targeting matrix and forces them to do it all over again. I am uncertain if this is actually working because I haven't done practical tests yet (still have most of my energy bound up in Smite and Guildskill at this seond).
I mean, whether or not it works right now we can totally come up with a different mechanic that has some meaningful utility. I was just curious more than anything.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ASHAMAN1
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:36 PM CST
I'm going to take a moment and wax poetic about GoWard and related issues.
One of the reasons so many of us were sensitive to the GoWard nerfs that have trotted out is because of a thematic paradigm change to DR. DR PVP basicly comes down to two aspects, the availability of key tools, and Prime offense vs Defense.
If you look at the guilds that are considered powerful in PVP, the constant trend is access to pivotal tools such as engagement control, non-diminishing effects and or burst potential and the ability to put more offense in the air then the other chap can survive. Paladins don't have a prime offensive ability. We don't even have a psudo-prime attack like backstab. To further the issue, we lack a Ranged buff, and have a mechanical bias against the use of stealth. Basicly, we're metal clad punching bags.
Now, some folks love to point at paladins and decry us as being too good at absorbing punishment. In a lot of ways, we almost are, but if you start looking from a PVP perspective, we fall short. On basic defenses, it comes down to your defensive average of two skills (usually Shield and Evasion), and having Tert evasion murders us. It gets further compounded by not being able to natively buff that tert evasion, bringing that average down further. If you look at a base ability list, excluding the (very) known issue of barriers, Paladins aren't even remotely the most defensive guild. I'm rather amused that Traders, with some decent buffs in their magic, could easily match us.
The change to GoWard compounded these issues. We're vulnerable to ranged. Our engagement control, to be blunt, sucks. Long cooldown, the stat contest stinks (Charm vs Will? Ouch, PS, can't bonus charisma, and everyone and their brother stacks disc), and it's (like all stat spells) weaker at range. Before it was changed, I only casted it for the tactics buff, now that taunting doesn't consume the spell, I just taunt to remind myself it won't work most of the time.
We're also vulnerable to engagement controls used on us. There's some light at the end of that tunnel with the proposed change to Courage (thank you!), but the biggest issue there is Cleric's Soul Bond. One would think that TR would prove a fantastic counter (and it holds up against some guilds okay), but against anyone with a rapid pulsing source of effects (Hydra Hex for example), it merely becomes a comical way to destroy your own spirit.
I fully realize this post likely comes off as very bitter, and angry, and I do apologize. Honestly speaking, the past month and it's flurry of posts caused by Armifer taking active attention our way has been a huge boon to morale for many of us. The base concept behind Paladins has potential, we've just got a fair bit of mountain to climb to get there. Appreciate the efforts of all involved in the current era of trying to chip away at it some.
The QoL changes for HW, icons, spells, it's noticed, we thank you.
Samsaren
One of the reasons so many of us were sensitive to the GoWard nerfs that have trotted out is because of a thematic paradigm change to DR. DR PVP basicly comes down to two aspects, the availability of key tools, and Prime offense vs Defense.
If you look at the guilds that are considered powerful in PVP, the constant trend is access to pivotal tools such as engagement control, non-diminishing effects and or burst potential and the ability to put more offense in the air then the other chap can survive. Paladins don't have a prime offensive ability. We don't even have a psudo-prime attack like backstab. To further the issue, we lack a Ranged buff, and have a mechanical bias against the use of stealth. Basicly, we're metal clad punching bags.
Now, some folks love to point at paladins and decry us as being too good at absorbing punishment. In a lot of ways, we almost are, but if you start looking from a PVP perspective, we fall short. On basic defenses, it comes down to your defensive average of two skills (usually Shield and Evasion), and having Tert evasion murders us. It gets further compounded by not being able to natively buff that tert evasion, bringing that average down further. If you look at a base ability list, excluding the (very) known issue of barriers, Paladins aren't even remotely the most defensive guild. I'm rather amused that Traders, with some decent buffs in their magic, could easily match us.
The change to GoWard compounded these issues. We're vulnerable to ranged. Our engagement control, to be blunt, sucks. Long cooldown, the stat contest stinks (Charm vs Will? Ouch, PS, can't bonus charisma, and everyone and their brother stacks disc), and it's (like all stat spells) weaker at range. Before it was changed, I only casted it for the tactics buff, now that taunting doesn't consume the spell, I just taunt to remind myself it won't work most of the time.
We're also vulnerable to engagement controls used on us. There's some light at the end of that tunnel with the proposed change to Courage (thank you!), but the biggest issue there is Cleric's Soul Bond. One would think that TR would prove a fantastic counter (and it holds up against some guilds okay), but against anyone with a rapid pulsing source of effects (Hydra Hex for example), it merely becomes a comical way to destroy your own spirit.
I fully realize this post likely comes off as very bitter, and angry, and I do apologize. Honestly speaking, the past month and it's flurry of posts caused by Armifer taking active attention our way has been a huge boon to morale for many of us. The base concept behind Paladins has potential, we've just got a fair bit of mountain to climb to get there. Appreciate the efforts of all involved in the current era of trying to chip away at it some.
The QoL changes for HW, icons, spells, it's noticed, we thank you.
Samsaren
ASHAMAN1
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:37 PM CST
>>I mean, whether or not it works right now we can totally come up with a different mechanic that has some meaningful utility. I was just curious more than anything.
It doesn't feel like it's doing that job anymore, no. I'm totally game for a new direction that fits the 3.0 world better.
Samsaren
It doesn't feel like it's doing that job anymore, no. I'm totally game for a new direction that fits the 3.0 world better.
Samsaren
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:47 PM CST
Regarding Evasion:
This has been a source of anguish for many Paladins, and a point of conversation among GMs receently. I've iterated through a few different ways of possibly handling it, some of which were so wild I probably shouldn't even mention the specifics, some of them ineffectual.
Where I'm at at this second, noting that we're still some ways away from any sort of solution, is the possibility of diminishing the importance of Evasion to Paladin combat. Anti-DFA, which we'e already talked about, TM parry, which we have not, and the ability to potentially engagement-control over ranged.
Basically I've ran out of good ways to make Evasion good for Paladins, so I'd like to make Shield + Parry a viable combo of skills for the Paladin-specific skillset.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
This has been a source of anguish for many Paladins, and a point of conversation among GMs receently. I've iterated through a few different ways of possibly handling it, some of which were so wild I probably shouldn't even mention the specifics, some of them ineffectual.
Where I'm at at this second, noting that we're still some ways away from any sort of solution, is the possibility of diminishing the importance of Evasion to Paladin combat. Anti-DFA, which we'e already talked about, TM parry, which we have not, and the ability to potentially engagement-control over ranged.
Basically I've ran out of good ways to make Evasion good for Paladins, so I'd like to make Shield + Parry a viable combo of skills for the Paladin-specific skillset.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 05:48 PM CST
>GoWard got nerfed a few times in the past few years from "Break targetting, prevent retargetting for short window" to "Penalize targetting" to "Says it penalizes targetted, you won't feel it, oh, and it's got a big ol cooldown now", without ANY notification from Staff. We got to figure it out the fun way, and when we brought it up the usual response was along the lines of "it does stuff in combat?".
>I'm honestly not 100% sure what it's actually doing now. If it's a penalty to the fella aiming at me, I can't tell the difference with or without it.
This is my feeling exactly re: GoW. I thought it didn't work at all on magic anymore. I use it primarily against (x)bow-users, and it's the only "(expletive) you" I have against people who want to force ranged combat in PvP.
I'll be as objective as I can be as a player of this guild. I have no problem losing GoW -aiming if we gain other/better ways to deal with ranged attackers, especially stealthy ranged attackers. The problem for me is being forced to be a melee fighter in a ranged fighter's world. Never do I encounter a WM who's like, "Let's go melee, and I won't use non-diminishing balance killing spells that make me just about immune to your melee attacks." TR helps some (thanks to those to those who removed the paladin-killing component), but it's still a problem especially while cyclics diminish its efficacy. It's usually, hanging back and running around with lots of casting and/or mundane ranged attacks through the occasional vertigo/tremor + disabler. Same goes for rangers who love EM and HB, at whom I often can't even throw before stealth reforms. Same goes for clerics who don't want to melee (unless you're stuck on your knees). Same goes for RFing casters who hangback, etc. At least thieves have to get to melee to backstab, so I'm guaranteed to attempt/land a few shots before silence or stun-hiders trigger. I also get to melee with barbs, usually, even though I miss just about every attack since their magic wards prevent debilitation.
>SACRED INSIGHT: Yes, it's not relevant ability in today's DR. I have a few ideas to expand the concept, but at the same time I hadn't considered it a priority because, well, it's not really hurting anything being alone in its corner. I can up it on the priority list if there's a strong desire to see it do better, but otherwise I was planning to refurbish your combat-oriented abilities and spells before going there.
I'd totally rather go for other combat stuff before Sacred Insight, although I would be interested in seeing it updated in the future. I like the ability conceptually. It just falls short due to the times, like you mentioned.
>I'm honestly not 100% sure what it's actually doing now. If it's a penalty to the fella aiming at me, I can't tell the difference with or without it.
This is my feeling exactly re: GoW. I thought it didn't work at all on magic anymore. I use it primarily against (x)bow-users, and it's the only "(expletive) you" I have against people who want to force ranged combat in PvP.
I'll be as objective as I can be as a player of this guild. I have no problem losing GoW -aiming if we gain other/better ways to deal with ranged attackers, especially stealthy ranged attackers. The problem for me is being forced to be a melee fighter in a ranged fighter's world. Never do I encounter a WM who's like, "Let's go melee, and I won't use non-diminishing balance killing spells that make me just about immune to your melee attacks." TR helps some (thanks to those to those who removed the paladin-killing component), but it's still a problem especially while cyclics diminish its efficacy. It's usually, hanging back and running around with lots of casting and/or mundane ranged attacks through the occasional vertigo/tremor + disabler. Same goes for rangers who love EM and HB, at whom I often can't even throw before stealth reforms. Same goes for clerics who don't want to melee (unless you're stuck on your knees). Same goes for RFing casters who hangback, etc. At least thieves have to get to melee to backstab, so I'm guaranteed to attempt/land a few shots before silence or stun-hiders trigger. I also get to melee with barbs, usually, even though I miss just about every attack since their magic wards prevent debilitation.
>SACRED INSIGHT: Yes, it's not relevant ability in today's DR. I have a few ideas to expand the concept, but at the same time I hadn't considered it a priority because, well, it's not really hurting anything being alone in its corner. I can up it on the priority list if there's a strong desire to see it do better, but otherwise I was planning to refurbish your combat-oriented abilities and spells before going there.
I'd totally rather go for other combat stuff before Sacred Insight, although I would be interested in seeing it updated in the future. I like the ability conceptually. It just falls short due to the times, like you mentioned.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 06:28 PM CST
Damn, I echo every sentiment of Sam's in every post in this thread, and not from a position of bitterness. I haven't been back long enough to have those feelings again, but I recall having them w.r.t. a lot of this. If I were to have a wish list priority, I think it would be more:
1. Debilitation/Control (melee and range) - we must be dead last among combat oriented guilds
2. Damage - probably last here, too, factoring damage from all sources
3. Combat Utility
4. Non-Combat Utility
5. Survivability - We can absorb damage, but we also take a lot of hits. I'm fine with that if we have other ways of surviving than just avoiding/absorbing damage. Loving the spell parry idea, and ranged parry was a thing back in the day. Anti-DFA will be a plus. Breaking status effects would be cool, too (in a better way than protect self, which often fails for no obvious reason).
P.S. I'm also super grateful Armifer is working on a lot of Paladin issues now. The receptiveness to ideas good and bad is appreciated.
1. Debilitation/Control (melee and range) - we must be dead last among combat oriented guilds
2. Damage - probably last here, too, factoring damage from all sources
3. Combat Utility
4. Non-Combat Utility
5. Survivability - We can absorb damage, but we also take a lot of hits. I'm fine with that if we have other ways of surviving than just avoiding/absorbing damage. Loving the spell parry idea, and ranged parry was a thing back in the day. Anti-DFA will be a plus. Breaking status effects would be cool, too (in a better way than protect self, which often fails for no obvious reason).
P.S. I'm also super grateful Armifer is working on a lot of Paladin issues now. The receptiveness to ideas good and bad is appreciated.
SHIFT3
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 08:34 PM CST
> immunity-to-targeting thing just doesn't work in the DR3 world
What if it provided immunity to re-targeting based on a contest? Think the watch-soul for clerics, but rather than shutting down TM it shuts down TM/Bow aiming? Or maybe a holy backlash if you block damage? The amount of damage put out is proportional to the success of the block, up to 100% of the bow/TM? Minimum success require, or maybe an "over-kill" success on the block with the overkill transitioned to backlash damage.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Guild Survey
12/20/2017 08:49 PM CST
I need to revise my opinion here. I was thinking of how TM was set up immediately in M3, but a few quick practical tests shows that non-targeting isn't as debilitating as I remember. There's probably been a few updates I've forgotten and I need to trace my way through TM again to refresh myself.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ISHARON
Re: Guild Survey
12/21/2017 12:40 AM CST
I can't add anything to our combat issues that Ashaman1 and 2dumbarse haven't already covered. (They also have a great deal more experience with Paladin PvP; I don't even bother with PvP, as it feels like an exercise in futility.)
>>DR-Armifer: SACRED INSIGHT: Yes, it's not relevant ability in today's DR. I have a few ideas to expand the concept, but at the same time I hadn't considered it a priority because, well, it's not really hurting anything being alone in its corner. I can up it on the priority list if there's a strong desire to see it do better, but otherwise I was planning to refurbish your combat-oriented abilities and spells before going there.
While I would ultimately like to see development for Sacred Insight, I agree that our combat-oriented abilities and spells need work first.
>>DR-Armifer: Where I'm at at this second, noting that we're still some ways away from any sort of solution, is the possibility of diminishing the importance of Evasion to Paladin combat. Anti-DFA, which we'e already talked about, TM parry, which we have not, and the ability to potentially engagement-control over ranged. Basically I've ran out of good ways to make Evasion good for Paladins, so I'd like to make Shield + Parry a viable combo of skills for the Paladin-specific skillset.
Yes please.
The only thing you could really do to make evasion good for Paladins would be to move it to a different skillset (or make us survival-secondary), which is obviously not an option. So the next best thing would be to make us less reliant on evasion.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
>>DR-Armifer: SACRED INSIGHT: Yes, it's not relevant ability in today's DR. I have a few ideas to expand the concept, but at the same time I hadn't considered it a priority because, well, it's not really hurting anything being alone in its corner. I can up it on the priority list if there's a strong desire to see it do better, but otherwise I was planning to refurbish your combat-oriented abilities and spells before going there.
While I would ultimately like to see development for Sacred Insight, I agree that our combat-oriented abilities and spells need work first.
>>DR-Armifer: Where I'm at at this second, noting that we're still some ways away from any sort of solution, is the possibility of diminishing the importance of Evasion to Paladin combat. Anti-DFA, which we'e already talked about, TM parry, which we have not, and the ability to potentially engagement-control over ranged. Basically I've ran out of good ways to make Evasion good for Paladins, so I'd like to make Shield + Parry a viable combo of skills for the Paladin-specific skillset.
Yes please.
The only thing you could really do to make evasion good for Paladins would be to move it to a different skillset (or make us survival-secondary), which is obviously not an option. So the next best thing would be to make us less reliant on evasion.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/21/2017 08:23 AM CST
>I need to revise my opinion here. I was thinking of how TM was set up immediately in M3, but a few quick practical tests shows that non-targeting isn't as debilitating as I remember. There's probably been a few updates I've forgotten and I need to trace my way through TM again to refresh myself.
I recall Kodius made some tweaks to TM to make it more like bows. TM gained a lot more power, and I think he made snap casts less punitive. IIRC that happened with the 3.1 update.
I recall Kodius made some tweaks to TM to make it more like bows. TM gained a lot more power, and I think he made snap casts less punitive. IIRC that happened with the 3.1 update.
RAGE123
Re: Guild Survey
12/21/2017 07:25 PM CST
Hey Armifer,
RE: Regarding Evasion:
I would love to see evasion becoming less important for Paladins. It is the constant bane of our defenses. I think a Paladin should be a solid bulwark of absorption, who doesn't need to dodge attacks. Parrying, blocking and soaking should be our specialty and I don't think we should be penalized for it.
Regards,
Dyerase
RE: Regarding Evasion:
I would love to see evasion becoming less important for Paladins. It is the constant bane of our defenses. I think a Paladin should be a solid bulwark of absorption, who doesn't need to dodge attacks. Parrying, blocking and soaking should be our specialty and I don't think we should be penalized for it.
Regards,
Dyerase
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Guild Survey
12/21/2017 11:41 PM CST
>a Paladin should be a solid bulwark of absorption, who doesn't need to dodge attacks. Parrying, blocking and soaking should be our specialty
A paladin Langston Field would be pretty cool. https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Langston_field.html
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
A paladin Langston Field would be pretty cool. https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Langston_field.html
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 07:56 PM CST
>I would love to see evasion becoming less important for Paladins.
I'm curious, but why is Evasion such a sore spot for Paladins, compared to say, Clerics, Warmies, and Bards? Especially considering MAPP is a Holy non-sig?
ASHAMAN1
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 09:11 PM CST
>>I'm curious, but why is Evasion such a sore spot for Paladins, compared to say, Clerics, Warmies, and Bards? Especially considering MAPP is a Holy non-sig?
Because we don't have a native buff for it.
Because being reliant on a scroll, by nature a temporary, limited resource for a pivotal and crucial combat buff sucks.
Having to give up 100% (or 50% if we spend ANOTHER spell slot on a Feat) to have access to said scrolled buff sucks.
Add to that, we're a combat guild. Kinda have to be, we're magic tert, and weapon/lore secondary, have mechanical built in limitations to stealth, so we gotta be in the thick of it. Evasion in modern combat is flat out required. Even with the changes to bring Parry and Shield to a closer level, Evasion is STILL the best defense. It's the only one that works on everything. It's the only one that works on all special attacks and spells (things like HOT, still dispel on a block, not a dodge. Wir Dinego bone attacks cost balance on block, nothing on dodge. And so on).
Those other guilds have other tools (to better degrees then others, sure), we get to be giant punching bags.
Don't get me wrong, I love getting gouged by the few folks in the know who realize the value of a MaPP scroll. It's fantastic, especially when I will eventually lose it. Hearing the idea of giving paladins a potential path that is less reliant on Evasion is a win, any day of the week.
Samsaren
Because we don't have a native buff for it.
Because being reliant on a scroll, by nature a temporary, limited resource for a pivotal and crucial combat buff sucks.
Having to give up 100% (or 50% if we spend ANOTHER spell slot on a Feat) to have access to said scrolled buff sucks.
Add to that, we're a combat guild. Kinda have to be, we're magic tert, and weapon/lore secondary, have mechanical built in limitations to stealth, so we gotta be in the thick of it. Evasion in modern combat is flat out required. Even with the changes to bring Parry and Shield to a closer level, Evasion is STILL the best defense. It's the only one that works on everything. It's the only one that works on all special attacks and spells (things like HOT, still dispel on a block, not a dodge. Wir Dinego bone attacks cost balance on block, nothing on dodge. And so on).
Those other guilds have other tools (to better degrees then others, sure), we get to be giant punching bags.
Don't get me wrong, I love getting gouged by the few folks in the know who realize the value of a MaPP scroll. It's fantastic, especially when I will eventually lose it. Hearing the idea of giving paladins a potential path that is less reliant on Evasion is a win, any day of the week.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 09:23 PM CST
>I'm curious, but why is Evasion such a sore spot for Paladins, compared to say, Clerics, Warmies, and Bards? Especially considering MAPP is a Holy non-sig?
As far as I'm aware it's only ever a PvP concern because DFA spells/abilities are a very effective thing against paladins that can, in many cases, be used at range where paladins are largely ineffective. I had tried to keep a few MAPP scrolls when I PvP'ed more, but the fact is MAPP is not a store-bought scroll and PvP is not scroll-friendly even when you do most of it through challenges because stuff happens. I'm also not good at turning down group PvP over scroll loss anymore. To me, it's like saying, "I can't join the (group PvP) event even though I really want to because I don't want to lose a scroll that I need for... PvP." I never like the scroll argument in favor of why a guild shouldn't have something because scrolls are intended to be uncommon and temporary with some exceptions. Plus, I don't want to feel like I need cleric spells to be a more effective paladin. I don't think anyone really has any gripes with evasion deficiencies in PvE.
It's also worth noting that the guilds mentioned can buff 2/3 (bards) or 3/3 primary defensive skills (clerics and warmages) natively to paladins' 1/3, and they have far and away better debilitation spells/abilities to further aid damage avoidance. The only combat-oriented guilds I can recall that buff only 1/3 defensive skills can also go invisible for all intents and purposes, which has its own defensive benefits. We have plate, which is cool, but avoiding 100% of a strike is way more effective than feeling 50% of it.
As far as I'm aware it's only ever a PvP concern because DFA spells/abilities are a very effective thing against paladins that can, in many cases, be used at range where paladins are largely ineffective. I had tried to keep a few MAPP scrolls when I PvP'ed more, but the fact is MAPP is not a store-bought scroll and PvP is not scroll-friendly even when you do most of it through challenges because stuff happens. I'm also not good at turning down group PvP over scroll loss anymore. To me, it's like saying, "I can't join the (group PvP) event even though I really want to because I don't want to lose a scroll that I need for... PvP." I never like the scroll argument in favor of why a guild shouldn't have something because scrolls are intended to be uncommon and temporary with some exceptions. Plus, I don't want to feel like I need cleric spells to be a more effective paladin. I don't think anyone really has any gripes with evasion deficiencies in PvE.
It's also worth noting that the guilds mentioned can buff 2/3 (bards) or 3/3 primary defensive skills (clerics and warmages) natively to paladins' 1/3, and they have far and away better debilitation spells/abilities to further aid damage avoidance. The only combat-oriented guilds I can recall that buff only 1/3 defensive skills can also go invisible for all intents and purposes, which has its own defensive benefits. We have plate, which is cool, but avoiding 100% of a strike is way more effective than feeling 50% of it.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 09:31 PM CST
There's reasons both coming and going to want to reduce Paladin -- and specifically Paladin -- reliance on Evasion. In terms of placing Paladins as a mechanically defense-heavy guild, having the chief defense in DR be Tert to them is sort of cruel. In terms of establishing a distinct Paladin identity, it's neat to think of them as blocking the unblockable and severing targeting matrices with a sacred blade.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 10:18 PM CST
I don't know what this shakes out past ~500 ranks or so, so I'm absolutely asking, not telling. Before 500, my experience with my Paladin was that he didn't need his defensive buffs, because shield/armor quickly got ahead of weapons/parry (and obviously evasion), and my guy was held back by what he could hit with weapons, not by what he could survive in combat with. But it sounds almost like the issue is that armor absorption/protection don't scale properly long term?
I understand that Paladins don't have a native Evasion buff, but then, a number of guilds don't have the capacity to buff tert defensive skills, and don't seem to particularly suffer for it. Is Evasion that over calculated in defensive calculations? I thought the long discussed issue with Paladins was that they lacked offensive oomph, both because TM is tert, and because of not having any real guild specific attacks. But then, isn't this something that Barbarians and Thieves complain about as well?
And to be as clear as I can be - I'm super glad Paladins are getting some attention, and am not in any way shape or form disparaging said attention. I'm just trying to understand the issues being discussed.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 10:27 PM CST
>I don't think anyone really has any gripes with evasion deficiencies in PvE.
If this is principally a PvP issue, I'll tap out here, because GvG is a nightmare that I don't even know how to approach. I don't agree with some of the things brought up elsewhere, but this wouldn't be a place to have that discussion.
>Plus, I don't want to feel like I need cleric spells to be a more effective paladin.
Eh, I think that's fair, but it seems to me that most of the design behind which guilds got which spells was to encourage mixing and matching, either via native mana type selection or sorcery. A lot of guilds have holes in their toolkits that are best patched by picking up another guilds spells.
If this is principally a PvP issue, I'll tap out here, because GvG is a nightmare that I don't even know how to approach. I don't agree with some of the things brought up elsewhere, but this wouldn't be a place to have that discussion.
>Plus, I don't want to feel like I need cleric spells to be a more effective paladin.
Eh, I think that's fair, but it seems to me that most of the design behind which guilds got which spells was to encourage mixing and matching, either via native mana type selection or sorcery. A lot of guilds have holes in their toolkits that are best patched by picking up another guilds spells.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/23/2017 10:58 PM CST
>If this is principally a PvP issue...
Yup. There aren't a ton of DFA using creatures and creature backstab is relatively tame. Offensive effectiveness, especially at range, and debilitation is a bigger issue in terms of the facets of gameplay it affects (PvE and PvP), so you're not off there. That's not to say I'm not completely enthralled by the idea of...
>...blocking the unblockable and severing targeting matrices with a sacred blade.
Yup. There aren't a ton of DFA using creatures and creature backstab is relatively tame. Offensive effectiveness, especially at range, and debilitation is a bigger issue in terms of the facets of gameplay it affects (PvE and PvP), so you're not off there. That's not to say I'm not completely enthralled by the idea of...
>...blocking the unblockable and severing targeting matrices with a sacred blade.
ASTARIN1
Re: Guild Survey
12/24/2017 02:42 AM CST
With all due respect, the real issue is that Parry is a garbage defense against two out of three types of attacks, and that affects guilds who are Armor AND Survival tert way more than one that is only survival tert. If you all are going to fix Parry, you should fix it for everyone.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Guild Survey
12/24/2017 09:21 AM CST
>With all due respect, the real issue is that Parry is a garbage defense against two out of three types of attacks, and that affects guilds who are Armor AND Survival tert way more than one that is only survival tert. If you all are going to fix Parry, you should fix it for everyone.
We're talking about using (parry) abilities to address an issue specific to paladins. You can make the case that parry is the worst defense (it's true) and evasion is a distant first (true as well). That's why every other guild has an evasion buff regardless of survival skill set placement. Stuff that ignores shield and parry solidifies evasion's place at first, but, in my observation, that stuff largely affects paladins more than everyone else. So does -armor stuff like khri eliminate and Curse of Zach, which are objectively OP (unless they changed during my hiatus).
At the end of the day, the parry issue as it relates to every guild will probably gain more traction in the combat folder where it's probably more relevant or in-scope. It's an interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading the suggestions made that don't involve making combat harder because that's unlikely to happen. The GMs tried and players apparently REALLY didn't like it.
We're talking about using (parry) abilities to address an issue specific to paladins. You can make the case that parry is the worst defense (it's true) and evasion is a distant first (true as well). That's why every other guild has an evasion buff regardless of survival skill set placement. Stuff that ignores shield and parry solidifies evasion's place at first, but, in my observation, that stuff largely affects paladins more than everyone else. So does -armor stuff like khri eliminate and Curse of Zach, which are objectively OP (unless they changed during my hiatus).
At the end of the day, the parry issue as it relates to every guild will probably gain more traction in the combat folder where it's probably more relevant or in-scope. It's an interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading the suggestions made that don't involve making combat harder because that's unlikely to happen. The GMs tried and players apparently REALLY didn't like it.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Guild Survey
12/24/2017 05:40 PM CST
Just a thought/suggestion/proposal -
It sounds like DFA is something that Paladins are having a hard time with, but the way I'm seeing things from some testing, all the weapon secondary survival tertiary guilds should have about as much difficulty with DFA, buffs to evasion/parry notwithstanding. My sense is that DFA is pretty difficult for just about everyone to deal with, as the negation of shield, even with the automatic evasion buff, is simply too devastating, and I feel this holds out even for my Necromancer, who seems to take significantly more damage from DFA than non-DFA. . While I do see DFA as a valid counter to guilds with more armor/shield than evasion, and I think checks and balances should exist to allow for nuanced combat, I don't know many people who think DFA is reasonably handled. DFA as a the counter to Paladins feels a bit like WATCH as a counter to Stealth, in the sense that both represent broken feeling mechanics that are somewhat selectively punitive.
Accordingly, I have a few ideas -
1. Fix DFA in a couple of different ways. This can include placing it on a cooldown similarly to Heavy TM, or perhaps a more reasonable adjustment, changing it so that parry and/or armor absorption/ranks are more heavily factored, or factored at all, into the defensive check. I envision DFA replacing the shield check with an addition armor absorption/ranks check prior to damage calculations, making it less devastating for Paladins, while still being a preferable TM choice against heavily armored opponents. The issue I see here is that the other weapon secondary survival terts are ALSO armor terts, meaning now DFA simply shifts to being particularly nasty only for them.
2. Fix Parry/Armor/Shield/Evasion to bring the four defenses more in line with one another. This seems like a better option as it affects everyone, and situates Paladins to be able to see more oomph from DA and plate armor.
3. Tying into the above two, Paladins should probably get either an Evasion, Parry, or Armor buff, or guild skill/cyclic that helps further mitigate DFA beyond the anti-magic already available.
Finally, while I know only Warblie mentioned this, I think it is worth remembering that a lot of guilds are in a position to shore up gaps in their spellbooks via sorcery. Everyone's spellbook doesn't need to stand on it's own - all of them, as far as I can tell, have gaps. This, of course, is not to say that any development/updates for Paladins is a bad thing!
