For those keeping score at home:
I've started the formal proposal process for the guildskill (Conviction) and a series of updates to Smite to make it the initial teaching method.
I'll go into details of what I'm looking at after its been bounced around and an approved form has emerged.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 04:26 PM CST
Out of curiosity from a game development standpoint, how do you envision Conviction (to go with it) being trained outside of the context of being 'an action you input on a timer whilst in combat to keep another skill locked'? I'm thinking of something like WHISTLE PIERCING as an example of a guild skill trainable via minimal action and investment.
This might be a subject for a different thread, but guild skills are in a somewhat scattered place right now, and I'm curious to hear the process of establishing a new guildskill, armed with the knowlwedge of what went into past guildskills and how they shook out.
This might be a subject for a different thread, but guild skills are in a somewhat scattered place right now, and I'm curious to hear the process of establishing a new guildskill, armed with the knowlwedge of what went into past guildskills and how they shook out.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 04:42 PM CST
>>Out of curiosity from a game development standpoint, how do you envision Conviction (to go with it) being trained outside of the context of being 'an action you input on a timer whilst in combat to keep another skill locked'? I'm thinking of something like WHISTLE PIERCING as an example of a guild skill trainable via minimal action and investment.
I think different approaches is relevant to different guilds. While I don't think "combat" versus "non-combat" guild is a relevant way to parse through abilities anymore, I do think it's a part of a guild's thematic identity. For a guild of sacred warriors who wade into the middle of conflict to defend others and meter out righteous retribution, I'm kind of OK with it being learned primarily in combat.
I do think most skills require two components:
1) A consistent teaching mechanism, even if this changes across the circles (see Astrology).
2) The ability to be taught through the Teaching system (Necromancers are the one exception, because their skill is supposed to involve atrocities and sin).
Once that's established, the fundamental bases are covered. It's great if the learning mechanism extends beyond that, but it's no longer in "this is critical for the existence of the skill" territory.
That said, I am willing to add Conviction learning to soul state improvements when I rewrite soul, regardless of combat or not combat focus. I just don't feel that needs to be there for the guildskill to be in a release-able state.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I think different approaches is relevant to different guilds. While I don't think "combat" versus "non-combat" guild is a relevant way to parse through abilities anymore, I do think it's a part of a guild's thematic identity. For a guild of sacred warriors who wade into the middle of conflict to defend others and meter out righteous retribution, I'm kind of OK with it being learned primarily in combat.
I do think most skills require two components:
1) A consistent teaching mechanism, even if this changes across the circles (see Astrology).
2) The ability to be taught through the Teaching system (Necromancers are the one exception, because their skill is supposed to involve atrocities and sin).
Once that's established, the fundamental bases are covered. It's great if the learning mechanism extends beyond that, but it's no longer in "this is critical for the existence of the skill" territory.
That said, I am willing to add Conviction learning to soul state improvements when I rewrite soul, regardless of combat or not combat focus. I just don't feel that needs to be there for the guildskill to be in a release-able state.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ILLIENA
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 05:30 PM CST
> I do think most skills require two components:
I'd like to add 3) a system or ability that provides meaningful reward for having ranks in the skill. Presumably glyphs, lead and maybe smite will play this role?
I'd like to add 3) a system or ability that provides meaningful reward for having ranks in the skill. Presumably glyphs, lead and maybe smite will play this role?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 05:36 PM CST
>>I'd like to add 3) a system or ability that provides meaningful reward for having ranks in the skill. Presumably glyphs, lead and maybe smite will play this role?
Granted. My mind was just on training methods when I made that comment.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Granted. My mind was just on training methods when I made that comment.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 05:52 PM CST
Again, we may be drifting from the point of the topic so I can start a new one under general if needed -
The thing I'm getting at is that if the guild skill itself is supposed to represent "Time spent doing the thing your guild does" (does it? Is that the point?), that's fine as a gating mechanism, as is tying that activity to something trainable in combat. However, I think generally speaking, skills that aren't simply 'input command every x seconds whilst in combat' are generally more involved and interesting. Astrology, Theurgy, and Summoning are good examples of nuanced guild skills that require time investment and secondary pool management for a mostly-kind-of-sort-of balanced reward. I feel that Bardic Lore, Thanatology, and Scouting are guild skills that represent more of a gating mechanism than an actual return on utility.
Ultimately I think both are fine, but from a game design standpoint, I think the former are more interesting than the latter. I'm not sure what you have in mind for Conviction, in terms of the rewards and training methods, and I'm curious to see how it shakes out.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 07:42 PM CST
>>I am uncertain. It doesn't feel like something that should be teachable in combat, but all other armor skills are. I'll give it thought.
I don't think it should be, honestly.
Samsaren
I don't think it should be, honestly.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 08:06 PM CST
Super excited about smite. It was one of my favorite abilities pre-3.0. Can we know whether it will remain a damage only move, or will it do other stuff?
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Conviction & Smite
12/15/2017 08:16 PM CST
I don't want to go into details until the proposal has been finalized and approved, because anything about the specific function of Smite I say now may not be true tomorrow.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
