This has been discussed before, but I thought it might be worth reopening the discussion.
I miss Courage of yore. It was a guild-defining spell, and it was so awesome that people would frequently request before heading off to hunt. I recall getting excited when someone shouted, "Join for Courage."
I know Courage can probably never return in all its luster because it was very powerful, but it would be really nice if it were polished up to guild-defining status again at some point in the future. There are number of ways to do that, like baking HES into Courage, and having DIG converted to a meta that adds the Wisdom buff to Courage and makes it a ritual spell to enhance duration (the old courage lasted ~90 minutes IIRC, which was part of its appeal), etc. Alternatively, it would be really cool if it buffed Stam, Strength and reduced melee engagement time or something like that over an extended duration.
2DUMBARSE
MAGE-WARRIOR
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 11:56 AM CDT
I don't know if your ideas will happen, but last I read, the GMs were planning on having Bards and Paladins being the 'group buffing' guilds. So when ever these group buffs get worked on and improved, maybe people will start asking for them again.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 01:02 PM CDT
I get that, but there hasn't really been much talk about changing Courage, which is already a group spell. It's just a relatively lackluster group spell.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 01:25 PM CDT
It's hardly lackluster, it's just no longer one of the only Stamina buffs. Conbined with the visual change of the 'extra vitality' barrier it used to give vs just padding your score.
Samsaren
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 02:53 PM CDT
I should have defined "relatively lackluster" more clearly. What I meant is Courage is hardly one of the most desirable group spells in the game. It once was among the best and I liked that particular facet of the guild.
I don't mean to poop on stamina buffs at all, and I wouldn't want to lose that functionality. I am sort of pooping on Courage as a premier group buff, not that it's defined as such, but I'd like it to be one again. If we are to be a more group-friendly guild again, I think we need at least one premier group buff. Courage could fit the bill because it screams paladin; we inspire, encourage adventurers to be better.
I don't mean to poop on stamina buffs at all, and I wouldn't want to lose that functionality. I am sort of pooping on Courage as a premier group buff, not that it's defined as such, but I'd like it to be one again. If we are to be a more group-friendly guild again, I think we need at least one premier group buff. Courage could fit the bill because it screams paladin; we inspire, encourage adventurers to be better.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 03:01 PM CDT
I think you missed my point big guy.
It's old duration was lower with a max group size then current. +1 for Modern Courage
The old "Join for Courage" hoopla was based on old courage having a far longer duration then other spells, and no one else having a stamina buff. (Again, new courage, longer duration. More folks having stam buffs to me is actually a GOOD THING, but I like a more even playing field).
>>If we are to be a more group-friendly guild again, I think we need at least one premier group buff... ..we inspire, encourage adventurers to be better.
Lead would be what you're reaching for here. And it's that good. No one seems to pay attention to it because no one wants to group hunt. Between Lead and Protect, we're FANTASTIC group folks, and don't need to dump MORE weight into TERT magic to shine.
Samsaren
It's old duration was lower with a max group size then current. +1 for Modern Courage
The old "Join for Courage" hoopla was based on old courage having a far longer duration then other spells, and no one else having a stamina buff. (Again, new courage, longer duration. More folks having stam buffs to me is actually a GOOD THING, but I like a more even playing field).
>>If we are to be a more group-friendly guild again, I think we need at least one premier group buff... ..we inspire, encourage adventurers to be better.
Lead would be what you're reaching for here. And it's that good. No one seems to pay attention to it because no one wants to group hunt. Between Lead and Protect, we're FANTASTIC group folks, and don't need to dump MORE weight into TERT magic to shine.
Samsaren
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 03:54 PM CDT
Would be amusing if Courage could be a ritual spell where the foci are additional people in a group.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 04:45 PM CDT
>Lead would be what you're reaching for here. And it's that good. No one seems to pay attention to it because no one wants to group hunt. Between Lead and Protect, we're FANTASTIC group folks, and don't need to dump MORE weight into TERT magic to shine.
I like Lead (caveat: with a large group... It's barely noticeable with one dude in your group), but it only works when people are in your group and you're in combat. It's a different (too specific IMO) niche. Adding more stuff that works like current lead wouldn't really impact my gameplay in a very positive way because of that niche.
I vaguely remember courage being better than just a stam buff. I may be misremembering based on the old messaging about feeling mighty and whatever the other combat messaging was. I'll definitely defer to you guys there.
I like Lead (caveat: with a large group... It's barely noticeable with one dude in your group), but it only works when people are in your group and you're in combat. It's a different (too specific IMO) niche. Adding more stuff that works like current lead wouldn't really impact my gameplay in a very positive way because of that niche.
I vaguely remember courage being better than just a stam buff. I may be misremembering based on the old messaging about feeling mighty and whatever the other combat messaging was. I'll definitely defer to you guys there.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 09:41 PM CDT
>>I vaguely remember courage being better than just a stam buff. I may be misremembering based on the old messaging about feeling mighty and whatever the other combat messaging was. I'll definitely defer to you guys there.
The old system gave a 'Invigorated' which was a bonus level of vitality that represented the 'extra' vit granted by stam buffs. It was changed to just roll that extra into the normal vitality messaging. We're still getting the bonus vitality and damage reduction of stamina, it's just not reflected the same way in the messaging of combat and damage.
Samsaren
The old system gave a 'Invigorated' which was a bonus level of vitality that represented the 'extra' vit granted by stam buffs. It was changed to just roll that extra into the normal vitality messaging. We're still getting the bonus vitality and damage reduction of stamina, it's just not reflected the same way in the messaging of combat and damage.
Samsaren
PRIMEQ
Re: Courage
09/09/2016 11:01 PM CDT
I definitely think a show-stopping "invasion" spell or ability would be right up the Paladin guild's alley. By that I mean the kind of spell that gets people to stop and group up before a major charge into battle. Something that gives some extra survivability, that would allow a group to push through the enemy line.
The old Courage felt like that. I don't know if the spell should be changed significantly at this point, but certainly it would be great to see something happen. Maybe a possibility for a guild special ability?
- Navesi
The old Courage felt like that. I don't know if the spell should be changed significantly at this point, but certainly it would be great to see something happen. Maybe a possibility for a guild special ability?
- Navesi
2DUMBARSE
Re: Courage
09/12/2016 01:45 PM CDT
>The old system gave a 'Invigorated' which was a bonus level of vitality that represented the 'extra' vit granted by stam buffs. It was changed to just roll that extra into the normal vitality messaging. We're still getting the bonus vitality and damage reduction of stamina, it's just not reflected the same way in the messaging of combat and damage.
That’s interesting. I don’t recall how big the stam buff was with a big group, but the extra messaging made a psychological difference for sure.
I don’t expect any more stam or damage reduction from courage, but I continue to stand behind the desire for it to do more than buff a single stat. All of our stat buffs are essentially just that: single stat buffs. MO and Clarity provide ancillary functionality that’s useful only in very specific situations. Since I took a PvP break, I can’t remember the last time I used them for anything more than the disc and intel buffs.
Rather than focus on Courage, in any case, I’ll open it up to all our stat buffing spells if the mods will permit me. I’ll skip VETERAN since that’s a metaspell.
Clarity = Intelligence + Sixth sense
Courage = Stamina only
Divine Guidance = Wisdom only
Heroic Strength = Strength only
Marshal Order = Discipline + Lead (I’ve never really noticed the Lead benefit, but I very rarely get to Lead with a big enough group)
Compare those to all other stat buffing spells, excluding cyclics and metas…
ECHO = Intel + Attunement, Sorcery
Harmony = Reflex, Evasion, Parry
SOUL = Charisma, Aug, Debil
WILL = Disc, TM
WORD = Wisdom, Bardic Lore, Mojo
DRUM = Agility, Locks
Auspice = Char, spirit and spirit regen
Bene = Agility, Reflex, Strength
GG = Wisdom, Drink (this is the only spell with fluffy functionality)
GOL = Stamina, Empathy skill
MEF = Intel, Concentration
Vigor = Agility, Strength
Tranquility = Disc, Will barrier
IOTS = 2 stats
PHP = Reflex, Evasion
REI = Intel, Alchemy, Arcana
BES = Stam, strength, anti-debil
SOTT = Perception, Reflex
WOTP = Wisdom, Tactics
AEG = Shield, Stamina, Strength
SW = Evasion, Reflex
MOF = Agility, Weapons
NOTE: This is not at all a representative sample of buffing power (you can’t even combine all stat buffs with some guilds), and my intent is not to point out how much better or worse off other guilds are at buffing stats. My hope is that this doesn’t devolve into GvG or some argument about stat vs. skill buffs or the like; I don’t even care about other guilds’ spells here. This is strictly about how Paladin individual stat buffing spells differ from the status quo.
That’s interesting. I don’t recall how big the stam buff was with a big group, but the extra messaging made a psychological difference for sure.
I don’t expect any more stam or damage reduction from courage, but I continue to stand behind the desire for it to do more than buff a single stat. All of our stat buffs are essentially just that: single stat buffs. MO and Clarity provide ancillary functionality that’s useful only in very specific situations. Since I took a PvP break, I can’t remember the last time I used them for anything more than the disc and intel buffs.
Rather than focus on Courage, in any case, I’ll open it up to all our stat buffing spells if the mods will permit me. I’ll skip VETERAN since that’s a metaspell.
Clarity = Intelligence + Sixth sense
Courage = Stamina only
Divine Guidance = Wisdom only
Heroic Strength = Strength only
Marshal Order = Discipline + Lead (I’ve never really noticed the Lead benefit, but I very rarely get to Lead with a big enough group)
Compare those to all other stat buffing spells, excluding cyclics and metas…
ECHO = Intel + Attunement, Sorcery
Harmony = Reflex, Evasion, Parry
SOUL = Charisma, Aug, Debil
WILL = Disc, TM
WORD = Wisdom, Bardic Lore, Mojo
DRUM = Agility, Locks
Auspice = Char, spirit and spirit regen
Bene = Agility, Reflex, Strength
GG = Wisdom, Drink (this is the only spell with fluffy functionality)
GOL = Stamina, Empathy skill
MEF = Intel, Concentration
Vigor = Agility, Strength
Tranquility = Disc, Will barrier
IOTS = 2 stats
PHP = Reflex, Evasion
REI = Intel, Alchemy, Arcana
BES = Stam, strength, anti-debil
SOTT = Perception, Reflex
WOTP = Wisdom, Tactics
AEG = Shield, Stamina, Strength
SW = Evasion, Reflex
MOF = Agility, Weapons
NOTE: This is not at all a representative sample of buffing power (you can’t even combine all stat buffs with some guilds), and my intent is not to point out how much better or worse off other guilds are at buffing stats. My hope is that this doesn’t devolve into GvG or some argument about stat vs. skill buffs or the like; I don’t even care about other guilds’ spells here. This is strictly about how Paladin individual stat buffing spells differ from the status quo.
DERIUM
Re: Courage
09/12/2016 02:05 PM CDT
In fairness, ECHO, WILL, SOUL, and WORD are mutually exclusive. It's not fair to skip a metaspell as that really means a spell that doesn't cost any mana.
Having said that, I see where you're coming from. Having one + to a spell is not as mana efficient as having two +s to a spell, and you could do some really cool things with spells.
- Courage could include a redeemer's pride style effect (Anti-fear spell)
- Heroic Strength could include an ease burden effect (it wouldn't be the first spell redundant with an AP spell).
- Divine Guidance could include a smite bonus or passive soul buff.
- Marshal Order could make it easier to reach lead's max bonus, or make lead usable when you're only with a horse or something.
- Sixth Sense really needs to be re-evaluated on a whole. It's a cool concept, but it's a part of DR that's more or less gone.
I bet this would increase the slot costs, but it's not like paladins are really suffering with too few slots right now.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Courage
09/12/2016 03:16 PM CDT
>In fairness, ECHO, WILL, SOUL, and WORD are mutually exclusive. It's not fair to skip a metaspell as that really means a spell that doesn't cost any mana.
There are others, too, including AEG and MoF. That's why I threw the NOTE in there. It bears repeating:
>NOTE: This is not at all a representative sample of buffing power (you can’t even combine all stat buffs with some guilds), and my intent is not to point out how much better or worse off other guilds are at buffing stats. My hope is that this doesn’t devolve into GvG or some argument about stat vs. skill buffs or the like; I don’t even care about other guilds’ spells here. This is strictly about how Paladin individual stat buffing spells differ from the status quo.
I like your Courage suggestion. Even if the MO And Clarity don't change, the others could stand a look, even just a combining in some cases.
To throw a few other suggestions in the mix:
Courage: Same as it is now, but...
HES: Metaspell for Courage
DIG: + crossbow, thrown, slings buff (I dunno... description sounds like it could be a weapon buff)
MO: + reduced engagement time
Clarity: +Soul pool recovery
There are others, too, including AEG and MoF. That's why I threw the NOTE in there. It bears repeating:
>NOTE: This is not at all a representative sample of buffing power (you can’t even combine all stat buffs with some guilds), and my intent is not to point out how much better or worse off other guilds are at buffing stats. My hope is that this doesn’t devolve into GvG or some argument about stat vs. skill buffs or the like; I don’t even care about other guilds’ spells here. This is strictly about how Paladin individual stat buffing spells differ from the status quo.
I like your Courage suggestion. Even if the MO And Clarity don't change, the others could stand a look, even just a combining in some cases.
To throw a few other suggestions in the mix:
Courage: Same as it is now, but...
HES: Metaspell for Courage
DIG: + crossbow, thrown, slings buff (I dunno... description sounds like it could be a weapon buff)
MO: + reduced engagement time
Clarity: +Soul pool recovery
