I get the impression that the currently favored name for the Paladin's guild only skill is "Asceticism." I'd like to put forth an alternative.

The word "Asceticism" has a slightly negative connotation to me, and the definition also doesn't seem like a perfect fit for the idea of a Paladin. It means rigorously denying oneself pleasure, or extreme abstinence. I can easily imagine Paladins that would drink alcohol, or get married, or otherwise partake in pleasures that the idealized "Ascetic" would not. On the other hand, not all pleasurable activities are harmful to a Paladin's soul, and the activities that are harmful like murder, theft, law breaking, etc aren't really the idealized "Hedonist," which would be the opposite extreme of an Ascetic.

The alternative I would like to put forth is "Integrity." Integrity means adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty. This to me is a fundamental part of playing a Paladin. In addition, secondary uses of the word in terms of physical integrity, or remaining in one piece, also seem appropriate for a Paladin. In other words, it has the spiritual / physical duality that Paladins embrace.

I know we are probably not calling it "Endurance," and I don't know exactly what all functions it will have, right now, but it's still worth some discussion. What do you all think it should be named?

>>It means rigorously denying oneself pleasure, or extreme abstinence. I can easily imagine Paladins that would drink alcohol, or get married, or otherwise partake in pleasures that the idealized "Ascetic" would not. On the other hand, not all pleasurable activities are harmful to a Paladin's soul, and the activities that are harmful like murder, theft, law breaking, etc aren't really the idealized "Hedonist," which would be the opposite extreme of an Ascetic.

At the same time, that would depend on which Immortal you're following. Someone following Idon might find monogamy extremely indulgent. A quick, painless death might be counter to the views of Dergati. Alternatively, someone who refuses to accept a peaceful resolution just because they lack a level of vengeance that would personally benefit their own needs might act against Truffenyi.

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

Hmm. Not sure how to phrase this without delving too far into plans that I haven't announced yet (largely because I don't want to announce a huge project when I already have numerous huge projects on my plate I'm struggling to resource).

Let's say that Devotion wasn't my first choice due to it's religious connotations and as the lore developed further I no longer feel that Devotion would be the best word.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things

I've posted this, or something very like it, before from the design document I've been kicking around in the background. The document opens with a section on "What Makes a Paladin" and it has three parts: The Sanctified Soul, The Code and The Immortals. I quote from it below as much as I can here:

The Sanctified Soul, along with the Code that defines it, is what makes one a Paladin - without it one can aspire to be no more than a holy magician with a blade. To quote Armifer on the Sanctified Soul:

During the initiation process, a Paladin's soul is sanctified. How this is done is a holy mystery the Guildleaders keep to themselves, but it's either within mortal means, or there's something Upstairs that is very decidedly active in the process of inducting a Paladin.

The sanctified soul is the source of a Paladin's divine power. Unlike the Clerics, who call down divine attention through their rites, the Paladin grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through his actions. While Paladins often think of themselves as servants or vessels of particular Immortals, this distinction has no functional value: the Paladin as a magician and wielder of holy power is wholly defined by the spark of divinity that has set his soul on fire.

What this means to the Paladin varies wildly. While there is a very well known and institutionalized approach to being a Paladin, any path that does not sully the divine soul can be said to be to be a right and proper path to being a Paladin.

A Paladin who allows the divine fire to gutter is not an anti-hero; he is even less than a human, having opened his soul up to a greater reality and found himself wanting.

(end Armifer's quote)

(NDA information follows so I've had to censor that).

The section on the Code remains unfinished, so I can't really share it now - however, it's somewhat covered by the section on the Immortals:

While Paladins are holy magicians, their abilities are not inherently granted by the Immortals. Their abilities are entirely derived from the sacrifices they choose to make (their Code) and the process which sanctified their soul.

Culturally, however, Paladins and the Paladin Guild are deeply tied to the Thirteen. This connection exists to such a degree that many, both within and without the Guild, are hardly able to separate the two. This has major practical ramifications for Paladins who have shaped their Code around their Gods. Because the Paladin has placed the Immortal’s tenants as the foundation of their Code, failing one implies failing the other, which in turn undermines the Paladin’s soul [...]. While it may seem a minor distinction it is very important to understand this loss of abilities does not come about because the Gods have found the Paladin unworthy and seek to punish him, but because the Paladin finds himself unworthy of the Gods and punishes himself. Many Paladins go their entire lives without properly understanding this causality. This also means that a select few Paladins are able to follow different Codes that allow them to act in ways forbidden by the Paladin Guild while still maintaining their status as a Paladin.

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Most of the rest of the document I can't quote because it's NDA, unfinished etc. However, there's this bit:

Asceticism

The life of the Paladin is one of discipline and sacrifice as embodied by their adherence to their Code. Without these the Paladin will inevitably [...] Fall. An easy misconception is that Asceticism as a skill represents how well the Paladin is able to follow their Code, but this is incorrect (That’s represented by their soul state). Instead, the skill assumes they are already in compliance with their Code and represents their ability to filter [...] power through their sanctified soul and make that power manifest in the material world.

It is easily mistaken for, but not related to, Holy Magic. These manifestations are supernatural but they do not draw on the Paladin’s attunement or Holy mana [...].

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As with anything I've been discussion about paladins lately none of this is finalized but I enjoy having the early discussion.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things

That's cool. I love the lore of the Paladin's guild, and I was aware of the soul description from Armifer. I really like the way all of this separates Paladin and Cleric power sources. While Clerics seek intervention from Immortals and wield magic based on their relationship with them, Paladins harness power through their soul without direct Immortal intervention. I am also enjoying the early discussion.

Let me throw out another skill name idea: Conviction. This name would express commitment to the code very well, in my mind. I don't know if you've ever played Exalted, but it is one of the "Virtues" in that game. It represents how committed a character is to their goals, and how willing they are to sacrifice to attain them.

On the other hand, since the skill does not represent ability to follow their code, but actually represents their ability to filter or harness or channel power through their soul and manifest their own little miracles, perhaps all these names are barking up the wrong tree. While to one degree or another any of Asceticism, Conviction, Integrity, Devotion, or Temperance, etc might help a person live by their strict code, none of them really speak to the ability to filter and manifest power.

In that case, why not a name like Channeling? If you want a nice double entendre the name of the skill could be "Conductance," which would be shortened to "Conduct" a lot. People would assume it refers to how a Paladin behaves themselves, but it would actually refer to the conducting power through the sanctified soul.

Another word I kind of like is "Zeal." It gets at the devotion and passion for their code, but also indicates a bit of power.

I am sure I will enjoy the updated Paladin experience when it does get released, even if the skill name doesn't change. As I named this thread, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Thank you for sharing what you have. It's fun to speculate. :-)

Yeah, a lot of my suggestions aren't really action based, like you'd want for a skill. I wouldn't typically say "I'm skilled at... integrity," or whatever, unless you're playing a game where Integrity is a skill. Though, this is also the case with asceticism, in my opinion. There are no verbs I'm aware of with the definition of "being ascetic," or "having conviction."

For an action based word that gets at the same concept maybe use "Abnegation." It's more plausible I would refer to the act of abnegating. To me at least, abnegation is more about personal sacrifice for a purpose, whereas asceticism is more about denying oneself pleasure as a way of life. Another possibility along these lines would be "Forbearance." Forbearing is a similar act of self-control to abnegating, and apparently has an obsolete definition of "enduring," which I just found out.

While neither of these words literally deals with armor, neither does asceticism. I guess they do sound like they'd fit, though. Abnegation is technically a kind of negation, and forbearing is a kind of bearing (enduring, again).

I accept that I may have no luck helping to name the new skill, because I don't know what I would need to know, but I'm still having fun trying. Will you tell me if I'm starting to get closer to what you're looking for? :-)

The foundation for the Paladin is, and should continue to be the soul. For my Paladin, I think of the soul as the engine inside that drives everything. It fuels my magic, it infuses my armor, it drives my action.

I would love to see a skill name that embodies that.

How about... Quintessence

I don’t have a problem with asceticism either. Consider that the soul is an earthly part of a person in Elanthia, like an organ (Armifer drew this comparison IIRC). You could say self-sacrifice is one form of the [paladin] soul equivalent of cardio. Plus, hell, the whole reason paladins even have a special soul is some dude gave his life for some unclear greater good.

On a sort of related note, I like to think of the Paladin soul in a slightly different way than a lot of people. I don't think of it as the soul at all, per se, but more an ancillary part of the soul, like a semi-divine parasite gifted during the soul sanctification process. Paladin abilities don’t draw on spirit energy, so I don’t think it’s a far reach. Also, that’s not to say the “parasite,” for lack of a better name is any less a part of the paladin than bacteria are to human beings.

Note: I’m taking for granted that clerics use their soul in a different way vis-à-vis spirit. Although their Big Thing is devotion, it’s telling that their guild skill is named Theurgy.