So, with Trader Magic winding down I am starting to move on to my next big project for 2018. Lyneya and I both agree that my next focus should be overhauling Paladins. With that in mind, this is an initial thought I want to bounce off you, this is not even in proposal phase yet. It is very much open to modification.
Ethics:
I'd like to revise and expand the Paladin ethics system while at the same time offering useful "outs" to people that want alternate play styles within the guild.
This would begin by making the ethics a little tighter in a few places, but also increasing the size of his pool and making soul state drift go higher upward with time. A "perfect Paladin" is handicapped by what he can do without getting hurt or losing soul, but benefits from his ethical integrity. The main additional handicap would be a partial rollback of the first strike/murder changes earlier this year, making it only possible for a "perfect Paladin" to strike a Thief, Necromancer, or criminal (of any guild) without soul hit.
Balancing that would be the introduction of three "alternate ethics," or ethical outs a Paladin can optionally take. A Paladin can take one alternate ethic and function more-or-less like he does now, two and have a compromised soul, or three and auto-default to a Fallen Paladin status (which will be elaborated and made semi-playable, more on that in the future). The idea here is that it's fully intended that a Paladin in normal play modifies his ethics in some way, or strives for purity in action and is additionally rewarded, or just says screw it and sets himself fallen.
The names of the following ethics are silly and for illustration purposes only.
Batman Ethic: Stealth actions are enabled without hurting the soul.
Punisher Ethic: Violent actions, including the use of poison, against anyone and anything are enabled.
Valjean Ethic: Stealing and crimes are enabled.
I welcome all thoughts regarding this. I will attempt to be open as I can as I go through the review process of the guild, both because I've grown to appreciate input and I wish to leave a lot of breadcrumbs for people if I succumb to the Paladin GM Curse.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
ISHARON
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 07:06 PM CST
Thanks for taking a look at our guild. I've always enjoyed your lore posts about Paladins and their souls.
>>DR-Armifer: The idea here is that it's fully intended that a Paladin in normal play modifies his ethics in some way, or strives for purity in action and is additionally rewarded, or just says screw it and sets himself fallen.
I like this approach, that Paladins derive power from self-discipline and strict adherence to a code of ethics. (In practice, this code basically overlaps with the law, which reflects the distinction you drew between Paladins and Clerics, that a Paladin "grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through his actions.")
Dark and edgy characters are over-represented in Elanthia, and I like that some thought is being given to creating mechanical incentives for being good/lawful, that there are advantages and drawbacks of each approach.
Besides the soul pool, do you have any insight into what systems might be affected by a Paladin's choice of ethics?
On a related note, since sorcery is illegal, I think it should be tied into the soul mechanics like thievery. (The ability to practice sorcery can be included in the Valjean Ethic.)
I have trained the skill mainly for TDPs, because there are no long-term mechanical downsides, but it would be nice if you could do penance to remove your sorcery ranks (analogous to the way thievery is currently handled). Maintaining 0 ranks in sorcery, for the purist, would empower the soul.
It might also be a requirement for some titles. See this post for suggestions I made: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Paladin%20Guild%20Title%20Suggestions/view/440
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
>>DR-Armifer: The idea here is that it's fully intended that a Paladin in normal play modifies his ethics in some way, or strives for purity in action and is additionally rewarded, or just says screw it and sets himself fallen.
I like this approach, that Paladins derive power from self-discipline and strict adherence to a code of ethics. (In practice, this code basically overlaps with the law, which reflects the distinction you drew between Paladins and Clerics, that a Paladin "grounds divinity into the mortal world directly through his actions.")
Dark and edgy characters are over-represented in Elanthia, and I like that some thought is being given to creating mechanical incentives for being good/lawful, that there are advantages and drawbacks of each approach.
Besides the soul pool, do you have any insight into what systems might be affected by a Paladin's choice of ethics?
On a related note, since sorcery is illegal, I think it should be tied into the soul mechanics like thievery. (The ability to practice sorcery can be included in the Valjean Ethic.)
I have trained the skill mainly for TDPs, because there are no long-term mechanical downsides, but it would be nice if you could do penance to remove your sorcery ranks (analogous to the way thievery is currently handled). Maintaining 0 ranks in sorcery, for the purist, would empower the soul.
It might also be a requirement for some titles. See this post for suggestions I made: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Paladin%20Guild%20Title%20Suggestions/view/440
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
BADGOPHER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 07:15 PM CST
My initial response was 'Lawful stupid necromancers?', which probably isn't what you're going for. And is admittedly an over simplification of what you're proposed.
I like the concept of multiple ways to Paladin, I just worry that it's going to turn into a severe-restriction path like empaths or necromancers. DR has such a slow development cycle that multiple-paths tends to be 'play this way with half the tools until someone can finish it out in 5-10 years'.
I like the concept of multiple ways to Paladin, I just worry that it's going to turn into a severe-restriction path like empaths or necromancers. DR has such a slow development cycle that multiple-paths tends to be 'play this way with half the tools until someone can finish it out in 5-10 years'.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 08:18 PM CST
Armifer,
I'm interested to see how this comes to light. Godspeed.
Samsaren
I'm interested to see how this comes to light. Godspeed.
Samsaren
RAGE123
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 08:22 PM CST
Hi Armifer,
Thanks for taking this on, and giving us all the opportunity to discuss the changes to the Paladin guild.
In my opinion, I think Paladin’s should not operate in the proverbial grey area (dabbling a little here in the more stealthy arts, or murder, or theft). I think their soul states, are a reflection of virtue in their morality, or in the case of Dark Paladins immorality. Absolutely there should be two distinct paths for the Paladins, each one with their own advantages and disadvantages. You are either light or you are dark.
If I am going to be a Dark Paladin, I am going to fully embrace it, by doing all those things that people believe that a Paladin should not do. They should be hulking, and brooding, and evil. They should worship their dark gods, and do their bidding. My soul should be a reflection of that choice, and thus my power should come from it. I am not going to tithe my money to the helping of Orphans. I am going to raze a small village and then demand them to pay tribute for my protection.
To operate in the grey, in itself, should go against the code of what it means to be a Paladin. Commoners, Thieves, and Sorcerers operate in the grey. Paladins are meant to rise above that in all their virtuous glory (Light or Dark).
Regards,
Dyerase
Thanks for taking this on, and giving us all the opportunity to discuss the changes to the Paladin guild.
In my opinion, I think Paladin’s should not operate in the proverbial grey area (dabbling a little here in the more stealthy arts, or murder, or theft). I think their soul states, are a reflection of virtue in their morality, or in the case of Dark Paladins immorality. Absolutely there should be two distinct paths for the Paladins, each one with their own advantages and disadvantages. You are either light or you are dark.
If I am going to be a Dark Paladin, I am going to fully embrace it, by doing all those things that people believe that a Paladin should not do. They should be hulking, and brooding, and evil. They should worship their dark gods, and do their bidding. My soul should be a reflection of that choice, and thus my power should come from it. I am not going to tithe my money to the helping of Orphans. I am going to raze a small village and then demand them to pay tribute for my protection.
To operate in the grey, in itself, should go against the code of what it means to be a Paladin. Commoners, Thieves, and Sorcerers operate in the grey. Paladins are meant to rise above that in all their virtuous glory (Light or Dark).
Regards,
Dyerase
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 08:49 PM CST
I'll be upfront with my biases and ideas here so that you know where I'm coming from. I am not going to say "this is the law," because I am willing to adapt if it comes down to it, but I certainly do have a style and approach.
If I had to characterize how I write people, it's a "frailty of man" thing. I tend to not like to characterize people as perfect exemplars, or as evil beyond all moral thought and redemption. Rather I see people as heroically striving towards impossible ideals, the best of us still trucking along despite knowing how impossible it is. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.
Does this mean being a Paladin is somehow anticlimatic or impossible? Well, let's try to define a Paladin.
The Paladin's chief feature is his divine flame, his sanctified soul. Through processes currently mysterious and occulted, induction into Paladinhood enflames the soul. It becomes something greater than a normal, mortal soul. It becomes frankly greater than anything a Cleric can bring to the table vis a vis mortal efforts.
The sanctified soul can be amplified or diminished, but it's not an all or nothing thing. It responds to ethics and moral action. Important here: it responds to human ethics and human action, not the abstract world of the divine. Paladins don't as a rule follow dark gods, and if they're earnest in their dire religion they tend to fall very quickly. Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
Now let's return to the start of the last paragraph: it's not an all or nothing thing. Paladins stumble. Paladins make sacrifices. Sometimes it's as simple and innocent as sacrificing a portion of themselves to fuel a supernatural effect. Othertimes they realize the best outcome happens to be by breaking a rule. Or perhaps they revel in their spiritual glory and cannot bring themselves to affect that kind of change. They both demonstrate fraility of a sorts, and they both are a mix of heroic and tragic.
The alternate ethics are meant to be presented as a codified, long-term sacrifice and acknowlegement that there are paragons of virtue that are not exactly the D&D Lawful Good archetype. Like, over the years I've harped on Jean Valjean vis a vis Paladins. Should the character not have stolen bread to feed his starving sister and her child? Should he have surrendered to the authorities and repent instead of going on the lamb to save and raise a horribly exploited child? Being an exemplar of virtue means, more than anything, facing tough choices.
On the sacrifice side of the equation, it's meant to be represented by the idea that it puts limitations on your soul's strength and purity. Paladins shouldn't be sneaky like Batman, but sometimes they are. And if they are long enough, it stands to reason that they stop feeling pangs of regret and simply settle into a new, darker norm.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
If I had to characterize how I write people, it's a "frailty of man" thing. I tend to not like to characterize people as perfect exemplars, or as evil beyond all moral thought and redemption. Rather I see people as heroically striving towards impossible ideals, the best of us still trucking along despite knowing how impossible it is. The perfect is always the enemy of the good.
Does this mean being a Paladin is somehow anticlimatic or impossible? Well, let's try to define a Paladin.
The Paladin's chief feature is his divine flame, his sanctified soul. Through processes currently mysterious and occulted, induction into Paladinhood enflames the soul. It becomes something greater than a normal, mortal soul. It becomes frankly greater than anything a Cleric can bring to the table vis a vis mortal efforts.
The sanctified soul can be amplified or diminished, but it's not an all or nothing thing. It responds to ethics and moral action. Important here: it responds to human ethics and human action, not the abstract world of the divine. Paladins don't as a rule follow dark gods, and if they're earnest in their dire religion they tend to fall very quickly. Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
Now let's return to the start of the last paragraph: it's not an all or nothing thing. Paladins stumble. Paladins make sacrifices. Sometimes it's as simple and innocent as sacrificing a portion of themselves to fuel a supernatural effect. Othertimes they realize the best outcome happens to be by breaking a rule. Or perhaps they revel in their spiritual glory and cannot bring themselves to affect that kind of change. They both demonstrate fraility of a sorts, and they both are a mix of heroic and tragic.
The alternate ethics are meant to be presented as a codified, long-term sacrifice and acknowlegement that there are paragons of virtue that are not exactly the D&D Lawful Good archetype. Like, over the years I've harped on Jean Valjean vis a vis Paladins. Should the character not have stolen bread to feed his starving sister and her child? Should he have surrendered to the authorities and repent instead of going on the lamb to save and raise a horribly exploited child? Being an exemplar of virtue means, more than anything, facing tough choices.
On the sacrifice side of the equation, it's meant to be represented by the idea that it puts limitations on your soul's strength and purity. Paladins shouldn't be sneaky like Batman, but sometimes they are. And if they are long enough, it stands to reason that they stop feeling pangs of regret and simply settle into a new, darker norm.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
RUIDIN
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 09:22 PM CST
I'm curious what this overhaul means.
If we're talking about a philosophy overhaul only about "what it means to be a Paladin" and "the road you choose" and how this choice will impact the mechanics of your day to day existance, I am terrified we might become restricted in how we do things, even more than we already are. If this means, oh boy we can train thievery and sorcery, eh, who cares.
I love the idea of there being different ways to play a Paladin, because lets face it, there are. What I'm most curious, hopeful and simultaneously nervous of is what does this mean? In terms of mechanics, abilities, what are the pro's and con's for these various roads. Are we talking about something similar to the Clerics when they choose a diety they get bonus's and negatives to certain spell skills, with some choices you end up with more negatives then positives, and you probably would have just been better off not choosing and just merely RP'ing that you've chosen, instead of providing yourself with a net negative gain.
A Paladin's sanctified soul is something unusual, I think we can agree to this. Paladin's have historically in fiction always been extreme in their pursuit of good, and extreme in pursuit of evil. They are the mailed fist of whatever diety, philosophy or cause they've chosen to champion. They've also received massive penalties if they've not stayed true to their "just cause" because you know, making pacts and agreements with immortals, they apparently get really torked off if they've selected you as their chosen champion, and you kinda shrug that off as no big deal and submit your 2 week notice to quit.
I feel like the definition of a Paladin is literally "Champion of a cause" if there's one person that's going to wave that flag, preach that sermon, fight that fight, harder, and more than anyone else. It's the Paladin. No matter what that cause is. They're the one that's likely to be the most devote to any cause, good or evil. There's also a crap ton of stories that are really excellent characters when said champion maybe discovers that their cause, not as critical as they thought it was initially. Enter the fallen Paladin.
In DR we have good gods, neutral gods, dark gods. Ok, fine, all three make a sound argument for Traditional Paladin, Grey Paladin, Dark Paladin. What about non-religious Paladins? Is this even something that's being explored? It sounds like maybe it is.
In DR Plat, we've had a long standing RP (Admittedly there's not a lot of Paladins around, but this was done years ago) about several types of Paladins:
Knight Templar - Holy Paladin, serves a god, and the clerics guild for a specific diety, or maybe even multiples
Knight Provincial - A Paladin devoted to a specific government most commonly a specific province
Knight Errant - A Paladin devoted to a specific philosophy
The Unsworn - Paladins who don't fit any of these descriptions, or is used as the label for Paladins who enjoy and adhere to the above RP, but don't wanna play that game.
With this overhaul, will these sorts of freedoms be allowed? I mean, this is a very good conversation about grey areas.
Zaud, as a Knight Provincial of Ilithi, raids and steals from caravans in Zoluren, to feed the starving people of Ilithi. Is he now a bad Paladin? Not according to his code which says "Ilithi first!" But Paladins in Zoluren might not like him very much, and he certainly isn't going to be welcome at the annual Zoluren Paladin-gala fundraiser.
I might be rambling, but I'mma try to watch this a lot more. I feel very much the Paladins guild needs some adjustment, but I never really thought the story, or lore around the Paladins guild was lacking. Moreover an issue with our core skillset Armor, and a large number of our utility and abilities being mapped to a teritary skillset. So I'm eager to how this might address those issues.
~Zaud in Plat
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 09:29 PM CST
>>With this overhaul, will these sorts of freedoms be allowed? I mean, this is a very good conversation about grey areas.
So my big rambly post above was trying to say that I see there being a balancing act between "Paladin as the exemplar of virtue" and "Paladin as a human being with human weaknesses."
The sanctified soul is a thing. Lore wise, and plot wise (which I pray to my OOC deity we'll get to finishing), it is very definitely tuned to a specific mode of behavior. You cannot be a perfectly pure Paladin pal and Batman at the same time, because Batman is antithetical to the hardwired ethics of the sanctified soul.
But you can still be Batman. You just have to pay the spiritual price.
So no, we're not talking a super-elaborate grey era or a lot of sharp variations on Paladinhood. It's meant to be more about sacrifice of the ideal. Often because the greater good comes from such sacrifices. Rarely, but just as possible, because the Paladin falls and no longer gives a damn.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
So my big rambly post above was trying to say that I see there being a balancing act between "Paladin as the exemplar of virtue" and "Paladin as a human being with human weaknesses."
The sanctified soul is a thing. Lore wise, and plot wise (which I pray to my OOC deity we'll get to finishing), it is very definitely tuned to a specific mode of behavior. You cannot be a perfectly pure Paladin pal and Batman at the same time, because Batman is antithetical to the hardwired ethics of the sanctified soul.
But you can still be Batman. You just have to pay the spiritual price.
So no, we're not talking a super-elaborate grey era or a lot of sharp variations on Paladinhood. It's meant to be more about sacrifice of the ideal. Often because the greater good comes from such sacrifices. Rarely, but just as possible, because the Paladin falls and no longer gives a damn.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 09:43 PM CST
Regarding mechanical changes:
I am still conducting my assessment of how the Paladin abilities are put together at the GSL level and what my thoughts are. I have some ideas already, but I've been tasked first of all to put together my thoughts in terms of what I can feasibly do in 2018 with this as my primary responsibility.
Your spells need work. Glyphs need a ton of work. Sacred Insight needs a complete reconceptualization. The Paladin guildskill needs to be activated and the Armor skillset needs to gain active abilities. I am trying to dive as deeply and quickly as I can so I can present a year-long plan of attack to Lyneya (and you guys).
That said, Paladins need _an identity_ too, and that for me was the most convenient place to start.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I am still conducting my assessment of how the Paladin abilities are put together at the GSL level and what my thoughts are. I have some ideas already, but I've been tasked first of all to put together my thoughts in terms of what I can feasibly do in 2018 with this as my primary responsibility.
Your spells need work. Glyphs need a ton of work. Sacred Insight needs a complete reconceptualization. The Paladin guildskill needs to be activated and the Armor skillset needs to gain active abilities. I am trying to dive as deeply and quickly as I can so I can present a year-long plan of attack to Lyneya (and you guys).
That said, Paladins need _an identity_ too, and that for me was the most convenient place to start.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 10:59 PM CST
> Batman Ethic: Stealth actions are enabled without hurting the soul.
> Punisher Ethic: Violent actions, including the use of poison, against anyone and anything are enabled.
> Valjean Ethic: Stealing and crimes are enabled.
What if you had the paladin join an order, similar to how a moon mage joins a sect. The difference is...
- The paladin could change orders periodically, with a moderate cost. Perhaps require a certain holy holiday to swap.
- Each order has their own code of ethics, and they reward and punish different things beyond just spell costs.
- Joining an order is mandatory to progress in the guild.
The guild still teaches generic abilities, like glyphs and other quests. The orders teach specific abilities, see below. Each order also grants an aura. This is basically a 0 slot cyclic spell that you can learn at level 1 and caps really early. It also requires a minimum soul state to use, and gradually depletes soul. If you're doing things your order likes, then you should have no problem keeping it going non-stop. The auras are meant to be very powerful. The abilities are more personal use (or gifts, depending), and they come with their own timers. They're powered by soul state.
Soul is gained or lost as normal. This just modifies the existing paladin base.
> Punisher Ethic: Violent actions, including the use of poison, against anyone and anything are enabled.
> Valjean Ethic: Stealing and crimes are enabled.
What if you had the paladin join an order, similar to how a moon mage joins a sect. The difference is...
- The paladin could change orders periodically, with a moderate cost. Perhaps require a certain holy holiday to swap.
- Each order has their own code of ethics, and they reward and punish different things beyond just spell costs.
- Joining an order is mandatory to progress in the guild.
The guild still teaches generic abilities, like glyphs and other quests. The orders teach specific abilities, see below. Each order also grants an aura. This is basically a 0 slot cyclic spell that you can learn at level 1 and caps really early. It also requires a minimum soul state to use, and gradually depletes soul. If you're doing things your order likes, then you should have no problem keeping it going non-stop. The auras are meant to be very powerful. The abilities are more personal use (or gifts, depending), and they come with their own timers. They're powered by soul state.
| Order | Brief description | Gain Soul | Lose Soul | Aura | Ability 1 | Ability 2 | Ability 3 | Ability 4 | Ability 5 | Where to join | Other notes |
| Blackguard | Not a dark paladin, per se, but they are very loose in what they will do to meet their god's call. Ends justify the means, and those ends usually comes at the end of a big sword. | Stealing, ambushing, first strike | Getting hit first, showing mercy or helping others (you're on a quest for vengeance - don't go off script) | Offensive - weakens opponents armor. | Backstab-lite - with a big 2HE | Stealth buff | Stealing buff | Ranged buff | Ignite like buff, spirit damage | Somewhere in the islands | Penalty if using a large shield. Medium or less. |
| Justicar | Guardian of the weak. Traditional paladin. | Everything you do today gives you more soul than it used to, successful protect | Same, but penalties are greater penalties | Weak, refreshing vitality barrier | Let 0 favor corpse be res-able | Increased potency when buffing others | Protect group | Evasion buff added to sentinel's resolve | Blessed armor, including dealing damage when you take damage | Crossing guild | Only option available to F2Ps. |
| Purifier | Purger of the wicked. Light bearer. Similar to clerics, but more warrior centric. | Accusing necromancers. Defeating undead/cursed. | Killing the living | Holy Warrior spell, as a basic ability | Smite is refunds the cost for crits on undead/cursed | Aura now adds an AOE defense debuff for undead only (think HYH MALE DEF) | Shatter adds a damage increase to undead | Harm Horde equivalent | Undead spawn control. Challenge, scare them away | Theren | Equal to cleric offenses against undead. Greater defenses due to paladin. |
| Shield Warden/Maiden | The shield is life. Behind it all gain salvation | Blocking | Attacking with a ranged weapon | Captain America shield throw | Block DFAs | Wear tower-shields on the arm | Reduce shield hindrance for large and tower shields | Bonus damage to shield bash, shield throw | Blessed shield, including chance of holy damage on block | Ilithi | |
| Champion | Glory seeking hero. Not really concerned with others. Not selfish, but seeks self-improvement above all else. | Buffing yourself | Buffing others, helping others | Radiant aura that burns all at melee with you (AOE pulsing, melee only) | +agility buff | +charisma buff | +evasion buff | Lead is now a long-lasting, self only buff | TR effects rolled into aura | Hib | Very tribalistic in theme. This is the town hero. |
Soul is gained or lost as normal. This just modifies the existing paladin base.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/10/2017 11:09 PM CST
My Paladin is long since deactivated, and am definitely coming at this from a greater lore perspective and Necromancer main, so I understand if this view is not welcome or worthwhile -
>The Paladin's chief feature is his divine flame, his sanctified soul. Through processes currently mysterious and occulted, induction into Paladinhood enflames the soul. It becomes something greater than a normal, mortal soul. It becomes frankly greater than anything a Cleric can bring to the table vis a vis mortal efforts. The sanctified soul can be amplified or diminished, but it's not an all or nothing thing. It responds to ethics and moral action. Important here: it responds to human ethics and human action, not the abstract world of the divine. Paladins don't as a rule follow dark gods, and if they're earnest in their dire religion they tend to fall very quickly. Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
Lore wise, this is the most interesting thing to me, and I would be most interested in seeing this expanded. This doesn't help really mechanically, but it may in terms of identity - in the scheme of things, the niche of 'anti-thief justice upholder' is both kind of vague and outdated in todays DR (I'm always bemused to learn that people still steal at all). Maybe if Paladins got additional ties to Justice mechanics, though I'm not sure what that would look like, given that plats are meaningless and it's easy enough to avoid town and/or breaking the law. 'Spiritually more than mortal' has a whole lot of intriguing things that fit into 'stuff at large' that I think is more emblematic of the lore direction and focus. The Oane stuff getting some conclusion would be super cool.
>Your spells need work. Glyphs need a ton of work. Sacred Insight needs a complete reconceptualization. The Paladin guildskill needs to be activated and the Armor skillset needs to gain active abilities. I am trying to dive as deeply and quickly as I can so I can present a year-long plan of attack to Lyneya (and you guys).
Just some food for thought, but Paladins magical suite isn't terrible, and it's somewhat on par with the other magic secondaries and terts. They've got some unique things and sufficient bases covered, which is of course not to say that there isn't room for improvement, especially in the realm of more signature abilities of merit, and I agree that almost everything a Paladin can bring to the table, Clerics seem to have too, which is an issue. Some kind of PERC EVIL sounds thematically and mechanically appropriate for a Paladin, which allows them to sense violators of justice, practitioners of any kind of sorcery, and Necromancers (maybe shocked Empaths? maybe not?).
Guild skill and abilities, would in and of itself go a long way towards adding some meat to the guild, even putting aside an update to Armor as a skillset.
CHIMERIAN
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 06:48 AM CST
Thank you for looking into Paladins. I was very very happy to wake up and read this this morning.
I am definitely interested in improving and expanding glyphs and spells and am very glad this is being addressed.
Role play wise I am very happy if there are more game outlined role play opportunities for Paladins of course. However losing soul for something like a ranged attack to critters or buffing others, I don't see where that is at all constructive or helpful to the long term development of this game.
- Felicini
I am definitely interested in improving and expanding glyphs and spells and am very glad this is being addressed.
Role play wise I am very happy if there are more game outlined role play opportunities for Paladins of course. However losing soul for something like a ranged attack to critters or buffing others, I don't see where that is at all constructive or helpful to the long term development of this game.
- Felicini
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 07:05 AM CST
>>However losing soul for something like a ranged attack to critters or buffing others, I don't see where that is at all constructive or helpful to the long term development of this game.
You may have confused a player suggestion with my posts. I have written nothing to indicate those two things would ever exist.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
You may have confused a player suggestion with my posts. I have written nothing to indicate those two things would ever exist.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 09:31 AM CST
> Role play wise I am very happy if there are more game outlined role play opportunities for Paladins of course. However losing soul for something like a ranged attack to critters or buffing others, I don't see where that is at all constructive or helpful to the long term development of this game.
Those were my random thoughts, and they're probably not possible for a myriad of reasons. That said, let me explain a little about what I was thinking.
I was suggesting a defining choice for the paladin. A figurative banner that they would pick up for themselves. It would and should strictly limit what you can do, and it would compensate the paladin by giving you a strong incentive to make that sacrifice. To me, that feels like the very core of being a paladin. It doesn't stop you, but you know that you're violating our own convictions to do so.
I think an order shouldn't be a straight mechanical buff. It should have a greater net benefit, but it needs to be a careful choice both mechanically and RP wise with what you want your character to be.
BADGOPHER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 12:25 PM CST
>Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
This seems to be somewhat countermanded by a later post?
>The sanctified soul is a thing. Lore wise, and plot wise (which I pray to my OOC deity we'll get to finishing), it is very definitely tuned to a specific mode of behavior. You cannot be a perfectly pure Paladin pal and Batman at the same time, because Batman is antithetical to the hardwired ethics of the sanctified soul.
Is the sanctified soul a set, titular, 'thing'? As in an entity in and of itself, similar to the WOW Paladins (blood elf, Tauren, space-goat, or human) varieties? Or is it a pure social construct?
If it's the latter, would a society of cannibals have Paladins who practices the same?
>That said, Paladins need an identity too, and that for me was the most convenient place to start.
Honestly, it might be better to define the guild as a whole, then explain how the skill fits into it. How do you (Armifer, the designer) see Paladins? Both according to current lore, and where you'd like to go? That type of base-line definition would really help me have a productive conversation, rather than rambling at you like a drunken goat.
This seems to be somewhat countermanded by a later post?
>The sanctified soul is a thing. Lore wise, and plot wise (which I pray to my OOC deity we'll get to finishing), it is very definitely tuned to a specific mode of behavior. You cannot be a perfectly pure Paladin pal and Batman at the same time, because Batman is antithetical to the hardwired ethics of the sanctified soul.
Is the sanctified soul a set, titular, 'thing'? As in an entity in and of itself, similar to the WOW Paladins (blood elf, Tauren, space-goat, or human) varieties? Or is it a pure social construct?
If it's the latter, would a society of cannibals have Paladins who practices the same?
>That said, Paladins need an identity too, and that for me was the most convenient place to start.
Honestly, it might be better to define the guild as a whole, then explain how the skill fits into it. How do you (Armifer, the designer) see Paladins? Both according to current lore, and where you'd like to go? That type of base-line definition would really help me have a productive conversation, rather than rambling at you like a drunken goat.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 12:35 PM CST
Yeah, I made a contradicction there. What I am trying to get at, hopefully clearer, is that these are separate but complimentary aspects of the sanctified soul.
1) It cares about society and human moores, not godly mandates. All the dark aspect worship in the world won't make a fallen Paladin function as a Paladin.
2) It has a pre-set idea of what society and human moores are hardwired into it. All the social relativism in the world won't persuade the sacred soul to change how it reacts to the Paladin's actions.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
1) It cares about society and human moores, not godly mandates. All the dark aspect worship in the world won't make a fallen Paladin function as a Paladin.
2) It has a pre-set idea of what society and human moores are hardwired into it. All the social relativism in the world won't persuade the sacred soul to change how it reacts to the Paladin's actions.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
ISHARON
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/11/2017 07:13 PM CST
I love this way of distinguishing Paladins from Clerics:
>>>>DR-Armifer: The sanctified soul can be amplified or diminished, but it's not an all or nothing thing. It responds to ethics and moral action. Important here: it responds to human ethics and human action, not the abstract world of the divine. Paladins don't as a rule follow dark gods, and if they're earnest in their dire religion they tend to fall very quickly. Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
I'm also a fan of your views on dark Paladins, that they are not servants of dark gods and/or monsters who revel in doing evil. Rather, that they have made a tough choice to sacrifice their own virtue for a worthy end -- and they pay the price (an impure soul and the resulting loss of power, being convicted of a crime or at least being judged harshly).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
>>>>DR-Armifer: The sanctified soul can be amplified or diminished, but it's not an all or nothing thing. It responds to ethics and moral action. Important here: it responds to human ethics and human action, not the abstract world of the divine. Paladins don't as a rule follow dark gods, and if they're earnest in their dire religion they tend to fall very quickly. Paladins are grounded in the living, breathing society they find themselves in.
I'm also a fan of your views on dark Paladins, that they are not servants of dark gods and/or monsters who revel in doing evil. Rather, that they have made a tough choice to sacrifice their own virtue for a worthy end -- and they pay the price (an impure soul and the resulting loss of power, being convicted of a crime or at least being judged harshly).
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
Paladin new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Paladin_new_player_guide
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
BADGOPHER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/12/2017 06:54 AM CST
I'll preface this by saying I may simply be misunderstanding what you've said, and that you're describing a proto-system rather than fleshed out ideas.
But combining everything you've said before, it almost sounds like a pact, or an oath, that the paladin invokes with a very set entity.
In this case, it's an entity that seems to be a mirror of the traditional necromancer one (all about society and justice and other social constructs of altruism etc.) But I may be seeing that because it's how WoW set up its Paladins. It's a nifty idea and I like it, but I think in DR it hews too close to necromancers; an otherworldly pact with an entity beyond human comprehension who isn't a god? What would said entity even want with Paladins? Why does it love social constructs and hate necromancy?
There's a series of novels called the 'Secret Histories' where the protagonists gain powered armor from such an entity who is described as a trans-dimensional cop. Sorry, rambling.
Or is it simply a pure social construct? DR has enough native, background, magic that I could see Paladins self-creating the embodiment of the Paladin code, that the sheer power of belief has created a self reinforcing concrete entity out of an abstract ideal. I kind of like that take more, it's a bit more novel and isn't already represented in DR. It's distinct from other worldly entities and gods and demons. But I've also been reading a lot of the Craft Sequence novels lately, so this is a pretty blatant crib.
But combining everything you've said before, it almost sounds like a pact, or an oath, that the paladin invokes with a very set entity.
In this case, it's an entity that seems to be a mirror of the traditional necromancer one (all about society and justice and other social constructs of altruism etc.) But I may be seeing that because it's how WoW set up its Paladins. It's a nifty idea and I like it, but I think in DR it hews too close to necromancers; an otherworldly pact with an entity beyond human comprehension who isn't a god? What would said entity even want with Paladins? Why does it love social constructs and hate necromancy?
There's a series of novels called the 'Secret Histories' where the protagonists gain powered armor from such an entity who is described as a trans-dimensional cop. Sorry, rambling.
Or is it simply a pure social construct? DR has enough native, background, magic that I could see Paladins self-creating the embodiment of the Paladin code, that the sheer power of belief has created a self reinforcing concrete entity out of an abstract ideal. I kind of like that take more, it's a bit more novel and isn't already represented in DR. It's distinct from other worldly entities and gods and demons. But I've also been reading a lot of the Craft Sequence novels lately, so this is a pretty blatant crib.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/12/2017 09:13 AM CST
Okay, so clarifying a little more.
The sanctified soul certainly comes from somewhere. The exact nature of how the experience came to be will hopefully be explored in plot as the year progresses, or if not I'll reveal it as we get deeper into the rewrite proccess. I will spoil that while the sanctified soul may (or may not) have originated with an extraplanar of some form, the "engine" that drives a Paladin's powers is purely his own, modified soul.
Extremely broadly, think Moon Mage more than Necromancer. Instead of there being a not-very-well-hidden demonic influence, the propagation of the sanctified soul is a legacy that is passed on from one willing generation to the next.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
The sanctified soul certainly comes from somewhere. The exact nature of how the experience came to be will hopefully be explored in plot as the year progresses, or if not I'll reveal it as we get deeper into the rewrite proccess. I will spoil that while the sanctified soul may (or may not) have originated with an extraplanar of some form, the "engine" that drives a Paladin's powers is purely his own, modified soul.
Extremely broadly, think Moon Mage more than Necromancer. Instead of there being a not-very-well-hidden demonic influence, the propagation of the sanctified soul is a legacy that is passed on from one willing generation to the next.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
2DUMBARSE
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/13/2017 09:58 PM CST
I’m really happy to see you on Team Paladin, Armifer. I’ve enjoyed all the stuff you’ve had a hand in and really look forward to seeing nouveau paladin. I also very much like that the paladin concept you have in mind is more earthly, in stark contrast with clerics’. I’m excited and hopeful for the future of the guild. All reasons I'm happy to reactivate my account.
I have one thing I’d like to add to the conversation. Would it be reasonable to just scrap a lot of the soul-penalty mechanisms for gameplay reasons? I understand why they exist, but they usually mess up things rather than add flavor. Take, for instance, if I’m fighting in an invasion in a group and a moon mage who isn’t familiar with soul mechanics casts Steps of Vuan, my soul will reach black fairly quickly as a consequence of multiple advances with pulsing invis. Similarly, someone could attack me for 5 minutes straight. If they don’t pass my defenses and I give the tiniest warning jab with a blunt dagger, I get a soul hit. (Is a glancing strike on my arm more of a “first strike” than a close miss against my shield?)
There’s a lot of little, counter-intuitive stuff like what I described above. I think it’d be easier to scrap a lot of it and cooler to have more ways to spend and nurse soul, perhaps based on themed sub-classes, than to play the remediation game with nuisance penalties. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be penalties for stuff like killing and stealing, just maybe not everything else. I’d also be fond of some sort of alternative to killing, like an incapacitate maneuver/ability that can be used on low health targets offensively (to finish off without killing) or defensively (to prevent bleeder death).
I have one thing I’d like to add to the conversation. Would it be reasonable to just scrap a lot of the soul-penalty mechanisms for gameplay reasons? I understand why they exist, but they usually mess up things rather than add flavor. Take, for instance, if I’m fighting in an invasion in a group and a moon mage who isn’t familiar with soul mechanics casts Steps of Vuan, my soul will reach black fairly quickly as a consequence of multiple advances with pulsing invis. Similarly, someone could attack me for 5 minutes straight. If they don’t pass my defenses and I give the tiniest warning jab with a blunt dagger, I get a soul hit. (Is a glancing strike on my arm more of a “first strike” than a close miss against my shield?)
There’s a lot of little, counter-intuitive stuff like what I described above. I think it’d be easier to scrap a lot of it and cooler to have more ways to spend and nurse soul, perhaps based on themed sub-classes, than to play the remediation game with nuisance penalties. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be penalties for stuff like killing and stealing, just maybe not everything else. I’d also be fond of some sort of alternative to killing, like an incapacitate maneuver/ability that can be used on low health targets offensively (to finish off without killing) or defensively (to prevent bleeder death).
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/13/2017 10:38 PM CST
Mechanically I'm not necessarily married to soul hits if I can come up with another way to represent what I consider the fundamental internal conflict of a Paladin between his temporal needs and his idealist demands. But I do think it helps paint the picture pretty effectively and is useful to the guild's identity.
But if we can hash out a system that's just as useful, sure, I can pitch it and see what shakes out.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
But if we can hash out a system that's just as useful, sure, I can pitch it and see what shakes out.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
SHIFT3
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/13/2017 11:14 PM CST
> Mechanically I'm not necessarily married to soul hits if I can come up with another way to represent what I consider the fundamental internal conflict of a Paladin between his temporal needs and his idealist demands. But I do think it helps paint the picture pretty effectively and is useful to the guild's identity.
What if you kept the soul state and soul pool, but you changed how it worked.
Soul pool, renamed to whatever or kept, was the volume of energy you had to use on abilities. It represents the amount of motivation you have. The more abilities you use, the less you have, but it's designed to be a hose more than a bucket. Fast drain. Fast refill. Think summoning rather than astrology. Doing things that your conscience likes fills your pool (% of total size - see state). Doing things your conscience dislikes drains your pool (static amount). Spending the pool also drains it (obviously), but this is also static and dependent on the ability you use. Each ability comes with it's own cool down (cd) as well.
Soul state, renamed to whatever or kept, is the quality of this pool. It reflects the view of yourself. It modifies how effective your pool is. If the pool is a hose, this is the size of the hose (not a euphemism). High state means your abilities are cheaper, more effective, and the pool refills faster. Keeping your state pristine lets you keep your big abilities up 24/7, which in turn increases your state in a self-feeding cycle. It'll drift naturally and quickly back to 0 to default when you stop using your abilities in a way that fits your order. There are other ways to go back to 0 too, such as death. Auto-warding and Auto-bonding are amended to alleviate this somewhat.
For paladins, the more you do something the easier that thing is (representing your fanaticism). You burn energy at a static rate, but your total pool size keeps growing thanks to improving your soul state (from using abilities). Since your abilities gain at a % rate, this makes it so you have more energy.
This gives the paladin a unique secondary resource. One that gets more powerful the more you use it. This means gameplay encourages you to use your abilities in a way that meets your ethical stance, and punishes you for not. Combat would be a build-up. You start by using an ability which adds some pool. You likely want to choose one with a small CD/cost on it. Keep using your small CDs/costs until you have a big enough state to justify using your medium CDs/costs and then mixing in small CDs/costs with the mediums. Keep going until you have enough energy for your large CDs and then add small then add medium then add medium and small.
In short, you keep getting stronger the longer your in combat using your cool abilities, until you reach cap. When you leave combat (or stop doing the things your order likes if it's not combat centric) then the conviction fades. You have to ramp it back up again.
Like thieves, charisma and abilities can raise this floor or give you a little conviction, maybe as a starter to fuel your run. This makes it easier to maintain a higher minimum and ramp up faster. This also, maybe, opens the door for a quick burst (pvp) like ability that fills you with conviction then drains you when it runs out.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/14/2017 05:22 AM CST
>>I have one thing I’d like to add to the conversation. Would it be reasonable to just scrap a lot of the soul-penalty mechanisms for gameplay reasons? I understand why they exist, but they usually mess up things rather than add flavor. Take, for instance, if I’m fighting in an invasion in a group and a moon mage who isn’t familiar with soul mechanics casts Steps of Vuan, my soul will reach black fairly quickly as a consequence of multiple advances with pulsing invis. Similarly, someone could attack me for 5 minutes straight. If they don’t pass my defenses and I give the tiniest warning jab with a blunt dagger, I get a soul hit. (Is a glancing strike on my arm more of a “first strike” than a close miss against my shield?)
Hey Homie, welcome back. Good news, First Strike/Murder are no longer a thing. The rest are still there but we can actually defend ourselves without giving up magic for the week. Criminal charges still cause a hit, so now it's more location location location.
Samsaren
Hey Homie, welcome back. Good news, First Strike/Murder are no longer a thing. The rest are still there but we can actually defend ourselves without giving up magic for the week. Criminal charges still cause a hit, so now it's more location location location.
Samsaren
2DUMBARSE
Re: Alternative Ethics & The Soul
12/14/2017 10:57 AM CST
>Hey Homie, welcome back. Good news, First Strike/Murder are no longer a thing. The rest are still there but we can actually defend ourselves without giving up magic for the week. Criminal charges still cause a hit, so now it's more location location location.
Thanks, man! I did not know that and welcome the change for sure.
A lot of my gripe with soul hits is minutiae that could probably be remedied by adding independent timers preventing multiple successive hits, thus allowing the soul hit for theme while not damaging gameplay.
Thanks, man! I did not know that and welcome the change for sure.
A lot of my gripe with soul hits is minutiae that could probably be remedied by adding independent timers preventing multiple successive hits, thus allowing the soul hit for theme while not damaging gameplay.
