Per comment by DEVAN. Restarting here.
<<This is the wrong place to discuss it. I'm going to start reading the Soul folder today, and depending on how big it is, I should finish soon. I think that would be a better place to discuss this.>>

Fallen Paladin:
Rather then changing everything up, why not gear a few abilities/spells/titles suited to a "black soul". This way someone could RP a Dark Paladin, not having access to what most would consider a Good Paladin's abilities. After all, if you want to be a Dark Paladin who kills people, who cares if you soul is tanked, that is what your after anyways.

A simple fix is to add abilities tied to the other spectrum of soul state. Just an idea for discussion purposes.




Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

Personally speaking I have no issue with such as long as folks are sitting around with nothing better to do. I look at it funnier though if making something for 5% of the guild takes away from time spent working on the normal stuffs for everyone else.

Leucius

Never argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

>> Personally speaking I have no issue with such as long as folks are sitting around with nothing better to do. I look at it funnier though if making something for 5% of the guild takes away from time spent working on the normal stuffs for everyone else.

This.

I also highly recommend you folks read up on the Faith system.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Faiths




~Thilan

>>So what can't you do as a fallen paladin? How much of a "pain" is it?

Everything.

You become a commoner who learns armor at a primary rate.
*******
A surge of intense heat lands a glancing strike to a gypsy marauder's verse!
A surge of intense heat lands a good hit to a morah vine's neck!

Behold the power of Bards: your verse shall be smitten.

Okay.

So, when I'm thinking about new directions of development, I like to begin with definitions. I want to know what things ARE before I talk about what they can DO. Otherwise, we'll be breaking established canon on what is and isn't real in DR.

Before I start with the questions for definitions, though, I want to explain what I believe in brief. I think this is the first time I've done this on the forums, so bear with me. I'll make it as short as possible. You can ignore it if you really want to. =)

===

Development of Character

A person's character concept is driven primarily by meaningful choices: choices where taking one path means you can't take the other path. Where the opportunity cost is billed and paid. The purpose of a guild, in these strict terms, is to provide Powers. It is to make it possible for your character to Do things. Advancement is thus understood to be an increase in powers, plain and simple. But the above rule requires that advancement happen along a path, and that path should have branches in it.

Nota bene: While I realize it may sound that way, I am in no way endorsing DA's fallen paladin ideas. I may, in the days of discussion to come, but I am not convinced yet.

The Political Guild

While the above was an OOC take on what a guild is, it also cannot be forgotten that a guild is an IC entity. Every guild has a R&D component, an administrative component, and a public face. Guildleaders make deliberate decisions on what guild members are allowed to learn. Members are indoctrinated upon joining, often harshly, and their allegiance is often demanded with deathly strictness. They have leaders, relationships with other guilds and other political entities, histories, radicals, rules, secrets--everything you can expect any organization to have.

This is the IC-OOC dynamic in designing for a guild: while they can act in concert, it's more typical that this is a tense tug-of-war that fails to reliably produce an enjoyable game experience. But it's still there, and it must be accounted for.

===

This is my first set of questions to answer:

- What is a Paladin? Who is she? Where is the boundary?
- What is soul, in general? What is sin?
- What is soul, specifically for Paladins? What does a pristine soul mean? What defines "fallen"?

My second set would get into abilities that are powered by soul, and the "how and why" of it.

I have some small understanding of this, but the history of this folder was utterly unenlightening, and I am resorting to the snippets that have been dropped by GMs in various other places for my knowledge.

Thus, I'd like to see what Redarch, Madigan, Leucius, Thilan, and other more established paladins have as answers to my queries. I know that not all of it is relevant, but all of it does paint a picture, and it's the larger picture that I'm interested, to start with.


---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin

This debate is about as old as it gets. It pops up every so often and in the past the GM's have always squashed it like a bug and said it will not happen. Recently there has been some improvement in their response and it looks like something along those lines will exist.

I also think that there is a difference in a "dark" paladin and a "fallen" paladin. Whenever I hear "fallen" I think of an angel that loses its wings. Which if a paladin decides to completely go against his code and break his vows to his guild seems similar to me. Losing ones abilities given by your code is on par with losing ones immortality for going against their code. It is all a matter of what you are willing to give up for doing what you want to do. However a "dark" paladin would be one that follows the negative aspects of one or more of the 13. For instance if a paladin is a follower of Aldauth and teases his pray and draws out their death to appease his god should he really be punished for that.

"Many posts on this and many debates. I subscribe to the official stance that the Paladin Code adopted by the Paladin Council defines a paladin."

While I agree with that I think that is the first thing that needs to change before paladins can adopt both a positive and negative aspect to the guild. It all comes back to how you view the guild and what the guild stands for. Is it suppose to be like clerics where you follow whatever god or aspect of the gods you wish or are paladins bound more to the laws of man and not the gods. The way the code is written I would say that paladins are more police than servants of the gods. They respect and worship the gods but they follow the laws of man.

>>Even the Paladin Code can be interpreted very differently though. Justice for one is not justice for another.

There you go. The million-dollar counter-point.

I suppose I agree that Fallen Paladin and Dark Paladin are two different concepts. Paladins who ignore the fundamental tenants of the guild are not necessarily what I am seeking. Paladins who interpret what it means to be a Paladin in very twisted ways, but still call themselves Paladins, are what I am hoping to see.
*******
A surge of intense heat lands a glancing strike to a gypsy marauder's verse!
A surge of intense heat lands a good hit to a morah vine's neck!

Behold the power of Bards: your verse shall be smitten.

"Even the Paladin Code can be interpreted very differently though. Justice for one is not justice for another.

There you go. The million-dollar counter-point."


I will agree that there is some leeway with how the code is interpreted which is why I gave the example of following your gods will and being punished for it. But I mean if you really think about it a "good" paladin following his path of protecting the innocent and killing someone takes the same penalty as someone who kills for his god.

That begs the question of what about the current mechanics is it that specifically bothers you as being a "evil" paladin. Is it the atonement needed to use spells and advance? Perhaps an easy way around it is to create new ways to atone based on the god you are atoning too. Then an evil just like a good paladin can just follow the appropriate path to atone and gain access to his spells and abilities.

I would love to hear some of a RP explanation of a perception of the code that draws them away from a "good" path. I have some ideas of my own but it would be interesting to hear what you all have to say.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=30&topic=28&message=17

After reading the Paladin Code. I believe that the definition of "Good" for a Paladin and they should always be "Good" is defined by who they align themselves with. I do believe that a Paladin should be able to align themselves with "Evil". I will try to flesh this out more. But at work.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

>>I suppose I agree that Fallen Paladin and Dark Paladin are two different concepts. Paladins who ignore the fundamental tenants of the guild are not necessarily what I am seeking. Paladins who interpret what it means to be a Paladin in very twisted ways, but still call themselves Paladins, are what I am hoping to see.

I like Batman. The world would be a better place if more people wanted to be Batman.

-Armifer
"It is no longer possible to escape men. Farewell to the monsters, farewell to the saints. Farewell to pride. All that is left is men."
- Jean-Paul Sartre

<<Four types of Paladins.>>
Game mechanics accept all four. As long as your values don't ask you to steal, kill, or support undead. So all in all I guess no new abilities or spells are needed.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

<<Your "so long as . . . " couldn't be more wrong>>
Was not referring to ideals, was referring to game mechanics. Sorry for the lack of clarification.

<<I will choose the side I feel more morally connected with regardless if their troops are rabid undead necro lichs or the whole of the Therengian Guard.>>

Agreed.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

<<Fallen and Anti can steal and do what ever they want. Because, they have already fallen from the guilds graces. They technically are no longer Paladins in the guilds eyes.>>

I just meant RP'ing them within current game mechanics. So yes, you can, you will just get penalties for it. So under my crappy Damaris example I gave RP (though crappy) reason why a dark/anti/fallen whathaveyou Paladin might not do these things.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

<<I follow Botolf >>
Really? How do you tweak your RP to accomodate?

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

Well you seem nice in person. ;)
Do you habits/quirks etc due to your affiliation with Botolf?

Let me state, I am not eager for a rash of Dark Paladins in Elanthia but I think some well played ones could add a nice dimension.

Ackfer - Halfling in a Can, No Fillers Here!

Do people still play dark paladins? I really see no point, I like to be able to cast spells and train magic.

Worril - TF
Worrill - Prime

>>Dark Paladin, by contrast, is a walking contradiction akin to a Midnight Sun or an Effective Placebo. i.e. Use at your own risk.

A Battle Empath used to be a walking contradiction too. I consider it a huge step forward that this has changed.

Basically, Dark Paladins contradiction according to current mechanics. Given that we are arguing for a change in those mechanics, though, pointing this out is quite useless.

>>Do people still play dark paladins? I really see no point, I like to be able to cast spells and train magic.

That's kind of the entire point.

People want to be able to play Dark Paladins and still be able to cast spells, which is why this discussion pops up once every few months.
*******
A surge of intense heat lands a glancing strike to a gypsy marauder's verse!
A surge of intense heat lands a good hit to a morah vine's neck!

Behold the power of Bards: your verse shall be smitten.

><squints> DA, I never hear anyone but you bringing it up.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention. People are asking for some mechanics to support the dark paladin path. This would be one example.

>><squints> DA, I never hear anyone but you bringing it up.

I tend to be vocal about it because, although I don't currently play a Paladin, I did and enjoyed it very much because I love tank guilds like Barbs and Pallies. The abilities were fun, the imagery was nice, and the theme was interesting.

However, the enforced morality and the mechanics behind it were simply too much to allow me to sink lots of time into the guild.
*******
A surge of intense heat lands a glancing strike to a gypsy marauder's verse!
A surge of intense heat lands a good hit to a morah vine's neck!

Behold the power of Bards: your verse shall be smitten.

>Nothing as far as I can tell at 150th to enable you to be a dark paladin with no reprocussions(sp?).

Well, you wouldn't have to worry about circling again. Otherwise, it would all be the same.