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DERIUM
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 04:08 PM CDT
> TBH, I'm not even sure what all the data is trying to prove, either.
This was in direct response to Sam's comment that other guilds have more defensive power than paladins. I disagreed.
> The main issue with Paladins is that DR is an offense-driven game and they're thematically defense-driven.
I agree. This is why I had suggested weaponizing the defensive power and branching off into more utility. I had suggested lowering the defense while it was weaponized as a trade-off, because I doubt paladins would be given a strong offense to use in conjunction with the best defense. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like a choice wouldn't be a bad idea. The player gets to decide when they are going to be an immovable mountain or a hammer of justice.
> Maybe a good analogy is that Paladins are playing baseball in the outfield. Don't get me wrong (feel free to get me wrong):
This is a good analogy, but I'd suggest it's playing outfield in a t-ball game. Group combat is a rarity, and bosses are almost non-existant in day to day gameplay. How often do paladins actively taunt mobs or play the traditional tank role vs solo-hunting?
> I clearly don't have answers, and part of that is because Clerics kinda do the "undead killer" role pretty well, which is where Paladins could have come in better as an offensive slot.
I think there could be more overlap between clerics and paladins, because paladins already feel like a cleric's red-headed step-brother.
* Clerics can survive almost as well as a paladin due to HyH + Male-offense, now with heavy TM.
* Clerics can deal far more damage than a paladin due to weapons + magic + HYH + Male-def.
* Clerics have more desired utility than a paladin due to res and the occasional niche utility.
* Clerics have more abilities than a paladin, that actually do useful things (blood staunch, athletics, mana, favors)
* Clerics have more personal utility than a paladin with near passive, always-on defensive spells (OM)
* Clerics have the thematic roles cornered.
* Paladins have guarding, and protecting, and anti-theft/justice... in a world where no one really cares or wants those things anymore.
I think that's fine. It shows that clerics are a well-rounded guild, but paladins and armor have been on the docket for improvements for YEARS. Low hanging fruit is really the way to go, even if that means some overlap between the two guilds.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 04:33 PM CDT
>Our four mitigation skills are defending, parry, shield, and evasion.
That's not true. You can't talk about defending in the same breath as the other three. It simply doesn't work the same way. At best, Defending affects the other three incidentally via bonus stance points, but the bonus isn't significant enough to make up for, say, a direct buff to any of the other three. The other stuff defending does is completely unrelated. It's a really good general purpose skill, like weapon masteries. Saying defending as a skill is like parry, shield or evasion as a skill is like saying melee mastery is the same as a melee weapon skill. I like the mastery skills, too, but they're no substitute for raw weapon skill.
>Maybe a good analogy is that Paladins are playing baseball in the outfield. Don't get me wrong (feel free to get me wrong): it's an important placement for baseball, but really you're mostly standing around waiting for something big to happen, as opposed to pitching or batting or anything else that is so much more active/engaging.
I like that analogy.
To piggy back on your points, defense is a weird animal. Other guilds are technically better at defending against certain things than paladins, which is fine. I don't care about invincibility. Anyone who's fought a ranger who knows his stuff knows how damn hard they can be to hit. Barbs can be annoyingly resistant to magic with the right combo, which makes them tough cookies to crack. Warrior mages' TM defense is pretty great. Volcano is a thing for sadistic barbs that don't care about actually causing damage. Literally every guild is better at defending against DFA than paladins due to skill set and/or buffs. As great as armor and shield are generally, no argument from me there (I loves my plate), I can probably come up with more than a hundred specific scenarios where there's another defense or tactic that beats it consistently.
>I wish using a Holy Weapon slowly made them (the HW, the paladin or both) more powerful rather than using up charges on the HW. If the HW wasn't used let it slowly drift down to a neutral power state over time. At any point on the drift or at neutral; usage would re-energize the HW. At higher levels of activation strikes would increase your soul pool and state and/or unlock passive auras for the paladin/paladin's group. The only time you'd need to recharge a HW would be if your soul-state dropped to level 'X'.
Everyone loves the holy weapon concept. I don't think I've met a single new paladin that didn't name that as the most exciting ability. It was mine when I learned about it. It's unfortunate it's got so many limitations. It should be a source of power and fun, not frustration.
That's not true. You can't talk about defending in the same breath as the other three. It simply doesn't work the same way. At best, Defending affects the other three incidentally via bonus stance points, but the bonus isn't significant enough to make up for, say, a direct buff to any of the other three. The other stuff defending does is completely unrelated. It's a really good general purpose skill, like weapon masteries. Saying defending as a skill is like parry, shield or evasion as a skill is like saying melee mastery is the same as a melee weapon skill. I like the mastery skills, too, but they're no substitute for raw weapon skill.
>Maybe a good analogy is that Paladins are playing baseball in the outfield. Don't get me wrong (feel free to get me wrong): it's an important placement for baseball, but really you're mostly standing around waiting for something big to happen, as opposed to pitching or batting or anything else that is so much more active/engaging.
I like that analogy.
To piggy back on your points, defense is a weird animal. Other guilds are technically better at defending against certain things than paladins, which is fine. I don't care about invincibility. Anyone who's fought a ranger who knows his stuff knows how damn hard they can be to hit. Barbs can be annoyingly resistant to magic with the right combo, which makes them tough cookies to crack. Warrior mages' TM defense is pretty great. Volcano is a thing for sadistic barbs that don't care about actually causing damage. Literally every guild is better at defending against DFA than paladins due to skill set and/or buffs. As great as armor and shield are generally, no argument from me there (I loves my plate), I can probably come up with more than a hundred specific scenarios where there's another defense or tactic that beats it consistently.
>I wish using a Holy Weapon slowly made them (the HW, the paladin or both) more powerful rather than using up charges on the HW. If the HW wasn't used let it slowly drift down to a neutral power state over time. At any point on the drift or at neutral; usage would re-energize the HW. At higher levels of activation strikes would increase your soul pool and state and/or unlock passive auras for the paladin/paladin's group. The only time you'd need to recharge a HW would be if your soul-state dropped to level 'X'.
Everyone loves the holy weapon concept. I don't think I've met a single new paladin that didn't name that as the most exciting ability. It was mine when I learned about it. It's unfortunate it's got so many limitations. It should be a source of power and fun, not frustration.
DERIUM
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 05:36 PM CDT
Sure. We can discount armor rating, absorption, raw damage mitigation via spells, stat multipliers, and now defending to show that paladins aren't superior, but that would be like discounting all physical weapons to show barbarians were worse than moon mages in combat. It doesn't work. I've given the numbers, so I'll give the GM posts on why I value defending so highly:
>> If your defending is less than your other defenses, being at melee with 4 critters is likely penalizing you in the double-digits. That is a pretty substantial penalty.
- https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Umm..._-_11/26/2012_-_21:35
>> ...Defense skill reduces the defensive penalty provided by engaging multiple enemies (and being flanked). It is also the skill used to defend against Tactics maneuvers.
- https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Armor_inquery_-_07/17/2013_-_19:18
The reason why 4 monsters is bad for you is that it severely nerfs your other defenses (into the double digits). Paladins do not have that problem. Everyone else does.
> I wish using a Holy Weapon slowly made them (the HW, the paladin or both) more powerful rather than using up charges on the HW.
This would be amazing. I would love to see paladins rewarded for using their holy weapons rather penalized. I say remove the charges all together and go with the drift system proposed above. Make them do spirit attacks too, because why not? ( Okay, lots of reasons why not, but it would be cool). And make killing undead/cursed charge them up.
> Literally every guild is better at defending against DFA than paladins due to skill set and/or buffs.
I stated early on that I'm talking about PvE. PvE doesn't have DFAs, at least none that you can't very easily avoid. Paladins are one of the worst guilds for PvP. DFAs, more quickly climbing the critter latter results in fewer stat points for the popular tournament brackets, poor perception, poor hiding, poor ranged attacks, major guild benefits are completely worthless (defending), or weakness to electricity to just name a few. I'm not arguing that. I never was.
MOD-ADILEA
Re: Paladin Stuff ::Nudge::
05/18/2016 06:37 PM CDT
Please try to stay on topic instead of going off on guild vs. guild tangents.
Suggestions for Paladin development should be posted on the Suggestions board: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Paladin%20Suggestions/view
Suggestions for holy weapons should be posted on the Holy Weapons board: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Holy%20Weapons--Suggestions%20and%20Questions./view
Thanks,
Adilea
If you have a question about the forums, please e-mail me (mod-adilea@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Helje (dr-helje@play.net), or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl (dr-annwyl@play.net).
Suggestions for Paladin development should be posted on the Suggestions board: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Paladin%20Suggestions/view
Suggestions for holy weapons should be posted on the Holy Weapons board: http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/The%20Paladins/Holy%20Weapons--Suggestions%20and%20Questions./view
Thanks,
Adilea
If you have a question about the forums, please e-mail me (mod-adilea@play.net), Senior Board Monitor Helje (dr-helje@play.net), or Message Board Supervisor Annwyl (dr-annwyl@play.net).
ISHARON
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 06:47 PM CDT
>>Derium: I think there could be more overlap between clerics and paladins, because paladins already feel like a cleric's red-headed step-brother. . . . Low hanging fruit is really the way to go, even if that means some overlap between the two guilds.
If I wanted to play a Cleric, I would. Personally, I don't want Paladins to feel even more like Clerics with inferior abilities. I'm willing to wait for a true guild identity, though I'm as disheartened as anyone else by how long it is taking.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
If I wanted to play a Cleric, I would. Personally, I don't want Paladins to feel even more like Clerics with inferior abilities. I'm willing to wait for a true guild identity, though I'm as disheartened as anyone else by how long it is taking.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall rank!
sortable list of all Trader-owned shops and inventory: http://www.elanthia.org/TraderShops/
armor and shields: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Armor_and_shield_player_guide
SHADOW7988
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 07:34 PM CDT
I liked the amount of posts, and then I saw how everything started to get into Barbarians and Rangers and ohh these people. Great! Most of those guilds have oh the grass is greener, and WANT things. Maybe just a suggestion, but what would Paladins want, not to be like. What do the players want there Paladin characters to be able to attain, to get. Throw some Lore into it. Develop the concepts so that the seem like they could really be part of Elanthia Lore.
So let's keep on with the Holy Weapon Idea, I mean it's cool. It seems to be a fundamental part of Paladins, so can the Holy Weapon lore be pushed into, stolen from, empower other things on the Paladin. Really my Paladin hasn't gotten that far and I'm not as fluent with the Lore.
I know I suggested Holy Shields, but I really don't know what a Holy Shield could be.
Maybe some people break down the Holy Weapon, try and figure out what REALLY works, and the biggest negative seems to be not that it runs out of charges but what happens if and quite frequently when. And try and troubleshot, what would make it possible for that to not be a problem, add-ons, or take-aways.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
So let's keep on with the Holy Weapon Idea, I mean it's cool. It seems to be a fundamental part of Paladins, so can the Holy Weapon lore be pushed into, stolen from, empower other things on the Paladin. Really my Paladin hasn't gotten that far and I'm not as fluent with the Lore.
I know I suggested Holy Shields, but I really don't know what a Holy Shield could be.
Maybe some people break down the Holy Weapon, try and figure out what REALLY works, and the biggest negative seems to be not that it runs out of charges but what happens if and quite frequently when. And try and troubleshot, what would make it possible for that to not be a problem, add-ons, or take-aways.
---
"I think anything that forces you to do something no sane adventurer would do just in order to train is ridiculous."
DR-SOCHARIS
---
"Phelim, what have I wrought?"
GM NaOHHI
---
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Vic
BADGOPHER
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/18/2016 09:36 PM CDT
>What do the players want there Paladin characters to be able to attain, to get. Throw some Lore into it. Develop the concepts so that the seem like they could really be part of Elanthia Lore.
The 'big' problem with Paladins is that the GMs-who-be have said Paladins don't, honestly, have a well defined guild identity. Why/how/what is the guild connection to a god, what is the guild skill, and so on. Until a lot of the more basic things like that get hammered out, it feels pointless to start creating player-lore on things which are subject to change and/or simple retcon.
The 'big' problem with Paladins is that the GMs-who-be have said Paladins don't, honestly, have a well defined guild identity. Why/how/what is the guild connection to a god, what is the guild skill, and so on. Until a lot of the more basic things like that get hammered out, it feels pointless to start creating player-lore on things which are subject to change and/or simple retcon.
FROSC02
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/20/2016 01:29 PM CDT
> The reason why 4 monsters is bad for you is that it severely nerfs your other defenses (into the double digits). Paladins do not have that problem. Everyone else does.
You can't really make that assertion without knowing the numbers involved since it's not a binary equation.
> Take all critters engaged with you, and figure out a "total tactics" score to use against you. Then, contest this to your Defending. If your Defending score is = to or higher than their Tactics score, you get the minimum MO penalty which is a couple of %. The more your score is lower, the greater the penalty, up to a cap in the double digits.
> https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Umm..._-_11/26/2012_-_21:56
The real question is how much would a Defending secondary be penalized in a multi-opponent situation compared to primary? Sure the penalty cap is "double-digits", but how much of a disparity do you need to hit that cap and at what rate does the penalty increase? Perhaps a secondary is in practice only taking an extra percent or two.
Also keep in mind that not all defenses are equivalent in their effectiveness. Particularly:
> Parry tends to protect better on average, wheras shield protects the front better and the flanks worse.
> https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Defensive_Stances_-_03/04/2013_-_01:21
So while armor prime benefits from having Defending in their primary skillset, in a multi-opponent situation they would also suffer from having their primary defense being less effective versus 3 of the 4 opponents compared to a weapon prime.
You can't really make that assertion without knowing the numbers involved since it's not a binary equation.
> Take all critters engaged with you, and figure out a "total tactics" score to use against you. Then, contest this to your Defending. If your Defending score is = to or higher than their Tactics score, you get the minimum MO penalty which is a couple of %. The more your score is lower, the greater the penalty, up to a cap in the double digits.
> https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Umm..._-_11/26/2012_-_21:56
The real question is how much would a Defending secondary be penalized in a multi-opponent situation compared to primary? Sure the penalty cap is "double-digits", but how much of a disparity do you need to hit that cap and at what rate does the penalty increase? Perhaps a secondary is in practice only taking an extra percent or two.
Also keep in mind that not all defenses are equivalent in their effectiveness. Particularly:
> Parry tends to protect better on average, wheras shield protects the front better and the flanks worse.
> https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Defensive_Stances_-_03/04/2013_-_01:21
So while armor prime benefits from having Defending in their primary skillset, in a multi-opponent situation they would also suffer from having their primary defense being less effective versus 3 of the 4 opponents compared to a weapon prime.
DERIUM
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/20/2016 01:47 PM CDT
> So while armor prime benefits from having Defending in their primary skillset, in a multi-opponent situation they would also suffer from having their primary defense being less effective versus 3 of the 4 opponents compared to a weapon prime.
That's a good point. Based on the GM comments, parry does defend better in MO situations, but it also suffers double digit percentages (see the comment above) because parry will be lower than defending. Likewise with evasion. (no buff to defending for barbarians). I'd love to have a GM confirm or deny whether this penalty is enough to make a paladin (small shield, low hinderance) more effective at defending against Melee attacks. This is assuming the charts above which is a rank/time comparison, because it's not helpful to compare equal numbers across all three skillsets
2DUMBARSE
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/20/2016 02:35 PM CDT
What it boils down to, really, is can any guild dance with 4 creatures at once? If the answer is yes (it is), then any multi advantage is moot. The only significant difference is you may need to throw some debilitation in your routine if you're not a paladin, which you're generally better at doing if you're not a paladin anyway.
I don't have a problem with a statement like "Paladins are generally better at not dying than everyone else." I do take issue with any data that can't even pass a simple logic test being used in support of making new systems that are unnecessarily punitive to prevent some manufactured scenario where Paladins are made overpowered by making outwardly minor modifications and additions to their/our signature abilities. I especially take issue with it when I look around and don't see the same treatment being dealt to other guilds.
I'm not trying to make a statement that paladin defense sucks (it doesn't) or that the defending skill doesn't rock (it does) or that barbs and rangers are generally better at reducing incoming damage (what?). Cherry picking data points and weighting them equally while ignoring everything else that factors into a system as complex as combat is myopic.
I don't have a problem with a statement like "Paladins are generally better at not dying than everyone else." I do take issue with any data that can't even pass a simple logic test being used in support of making new systems that are unnecessarily punitive to prevent some manufactured scenario where Paladins are made overpowered by making outwardly minor modifications and additions to their/our signature abilities. I especially take issue with it when I look around and don't see the same treatment being dealt to other guilds.
I'm not trying to make a statement that paladin defense sucks (it doesn't) or that the defending skill doesn't rock (it does) or that barbs and rangers are generally better at reducing incoming damage (what?). Cherry picking data points and weighting them equally while ignoring everything else that factors into a system as complex as combat is myopic.
DERIUM
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/20/2016 03:02 PM CDT
> 2DUMBARSE
I don't think the data is wrong, but I also don't think we're disagreeing on what's being said.
Maybe I can simplify it to what we agree on:
* Defending skill is awesome.
* Paladins have the most survivability.
* Paladins need some love, and it's been years since they've had it.
* The entire kit and numerical equations has to be looked at cohesively, even though players only see a portion of this.
We may disagree on the tradeoffs required to make a great (but unfinished) guild even better. That's fine. Neither of us will ever have to make that trade-off decision, even if our rough ideas are accepted and turned into something practical. I don't think we're disagreeing on the core need though.
I don't think the data is wrong, but I also don't think we're disagreeing on what's being said.
Maybe I can simplify it to what we agree on:
* Defending skill is awesome.
* Paladins have the most survivability.
* Paladins need some love, and it's been years since they've had it.
* The entire kit and numerical equations has to be looked at cohesively, even though players only see a portion of this.
We may disagree on the tradeoffs required to make a great (but unfinished) guild even better. That's fine. Neither of us will ever have to make that trade-off decision, even if our rough ideas are accepted and turned into something practical. I don't think we're disagreeing on the core need though.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/20/2016 03:47 PM CDT
>I don't think the data is wrong, but I also don't think we're disagreeing on what's being said.
I was only disagreeing with the data you presented and its interpretation as an accurate and logically consistent representation of, well, anything, but I give up on that. However, if you agree that evasion!=defending!=parry!=shield!=armor!=reflex!=agility!=stamina!=strength!=wards and that scroll spells that aren't store-bought shouldn't be a factor in any sort of analysis, then we disagree on a whole lot less than I thought. If not, then you should also add to your table: balance, debilitations, and other combat modifiers that can be manipulated through spells and abilities so that it's really comprehensive.
I was only disagreeing with the data you presented and its interpretation as an accurate and logically consistent representation of, well, anything, but I give up on that. However, if you agree that evasion!=defending!=parry!=shield!=armor!=reflex!=agility!=stamina!=strength!=wards and that scroll spells that aren't store-bought shouldn't be a factor in any sort of analysis, then we disagree on a whole lot less than I thought. If not, then you should also add to your table: balance, debilitations, and other combat modifiers that can be manipulated through spells and abilities so that it's really comprehensive.
DAMIAN
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/24/2016 09:20 PM CDT
I was browsing through here and had a thought. Apologies if it has been suggested before, i don't read this folder in depth. Would it be useful/fun/cool if paladins could boost their spirit pool through active killing of undead? This would work sort of how inner fire works for barbs but for the paladin soul pool and would only apply to the killing of the undead. Maybe using their holy weapon can amplify this feature when used on the undead or using a holy weapon on the undead can recharge it. Maybe it already works like this. Just thought i'd throw it out there and get your thoughts.
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR
BADGOPHER
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/24/2016 10:31 PM CDT
Paladins don't really have the 'anti-undead' bent in DR though, do they?
I think nearly anything paladin-help would be great, though.
I think nearly anything paladin-help would be great, though.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/24/2016 11:07 PM CDT
>>Paladins don't really have the 'anti-undead' bent in DR though, do they?
They do, just not to the same scale/scope as Clerics.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
They do, just not to the same scale/scope as Clerics.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Paladin Stuff
05/25/2016 10:23 AM CDT
>I was browsing through here and had a thought. Apologies if it has been suggested before, i don't read this folder in depth. Would it be useful/fun/cool if paladins could boost their spirit pool through active killing of undead? This would work sort of how inner fire works for barbs but for the paladin soul pool and would only apply to the killing of the undead. Maybe using their holy weapon can amplify this feature when used on the undead or using a holy weapon on the undead can recharge it. Maybe it already works like this. Just thought i'd throw it out there and get your thoughts.
No need for apologies. I think everyone has a hard time navigating the forums sometimes. I know I've suggested a number of things that have already been suggested over the game's lengthy existence.
As far as this suggestion goes, it already sort of works like you describe. There's a random chance when you kill an undead or cursed creature that it'll repair soul state (not to be confused with soul pool, which varies in size based on soul state and other stuff). Soul state already affects holy weapon. Comically, and I have no problem with this, your holy weapon can actually kill you if you attack with a black soul (state).
That's about the extent of the paladin-undead relationship outside holy mana use, and I don't think that affects paladins' identity for whatever it's worth. Bard spells are also or will be subject to the same bonuses/restrictions that warmage spells are subject to since they're both elemental mana users. Traders will probably have something lunar mana related in common with moonies that I'm not remembering right now, maybe power perception.
I would rather not have anything else focused on anti-undead. I wouldn't even mind if holy weapons lost any undead bonuses in favor of other features.
No need for apologies. I think everyone has a hard time navigating the forums sometimes. I know I've suggested a number of things that have already been suggested over the game's lengthy existence.
As far as this suggestion goes, it already sort of works like you describe. There's a random chance when you kill an undead or cursed creature that it'll repair soul state (not to be confused with soul pool, which varies in size based on soul state and other stuff). Soul state already affects holy weapon. Comically, and I have no problem with this, your holy weapon can actually kill you if you attack with a black soul (state).
That's about the extent of the paladin-undead relationship outside holy mana use, and I don't think that affects paladins' identity for whatever it's worth. Bard spells are also or will be subject to the same bonuses/restrictions that warmage spells are subject to since they're both elemental mana users. Traders will probably have something lunar mana related in common with moonies that I'm not remembering right now, maybe power perception.
I would rather not have anything else focused on anti-undead. I wouldn't even mind if holy weapons lost any undead bonuses in favor of other features.
