The shield topic got me wondering, how many guilds can use their primary skillset as the basis for damage?
Barbs of course, plus whirlwind for AE primary skill damage.
MM, WM naturally
Bards apparently?
Thief/Ranger - snipe and backstab are nasty, I have a thief 5 circles below my pallie and vs. mobs the thief wins.
Cleric - check
Shield bash is a straight insult. My paladin is nearly 40th now, my shield is so much better than my weapon skill. Shield bash is utterly worthless and I only use it to see how terrible it is once in a blue moon. Less damage than any of my weapons do with higher roundtime and poor balance.
You can safetly remove shield bash and no one will complain, not even Paladins.
Kleptomaniac Maryhana, Holy Warrior
VMILLER4
SLOANJ11
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 05:59 PM CDT
>Shield bash is a straight insult. My paladin is nearly 40th now, my shield is so much better than my weapon skill. Shield bash is utterly worthless and I only use it to see how terrible it is once in a blue moon. Less damage than any of my weapons do with higher roundtime and poor balance.
>You can safetly remove shield bash and no one will complain, not even Paladins.
I honestly always thought it worked off brawling, since it underperformed so badly compared to weapons with with 50-80 ranks less (basically weapons with only 2/3 to 3/4 of the ranks as I have in shield). When it was confirmed that it was based on shield ranks, I tried again, and could barely hit things that had stopped teaching shield completely some 20-30 ranks prior. Meanwhile, my hurling axe or two-handed axe, which are equally badly balanced as my shield, and way fewer ranks, kill those critters in a few hits.
>You can safetly remove shield bash and no one will complain, not even Paladins.
I honestly always thought it worked off brawling, since it underperformed so badly compared to weapons with with 50-80 ranks less (basically weapons with only 2/3 to 3/4 of the ranks as I have in shield). When it was confirmed that it was based on shield ranks, I tried again, and could barely hit things that had stopped teaching shield completely some 20-30 ranks prior. Meanwhile, my hurling axe or two-handed axe, which are equally badly balanced as my shield, and way fewer ranks, kill those critters in a few hits.
DR-ZEYURN
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 06:31 PM CDT
Snipe and Backstab don't use a primary skill for considering damage.
Backstab's checks are weird in several other ways but when it goes through the combat system the check is weapon vs evasion.
-Z
Backstab's checks are weird in several other ways but when it goes through the combat system the check is weapon vs evasion.
-Z
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 07:01 PM CDT
>how many guilds can use their primary skillset as the basis for damage?
You appear to be implying that all or many guilds SHOULD be able to do this. Would you mind elaborating?
In my opinion, as Paladins are thematically very defense oriented, it shouldn't be surprising if they lack a major attack in their primary skillset. I wouldn't say you shouldn't have something, but I imagine it wouldn't be very high on the list of priorities.
Now if I had my way, I'd turn shield bash into a non-damaging maneuver similar to some of the brawling moves. Either a balance reducer or a shield/parry debuff (hey I just knocked your sword/shield way out of position!).
P.S. I personally have issues with attacks contesting skills that are not primarily learned by attacking, so I'm biased.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
You appear to be implying that all or many guilds SHOULD be able to do this. Would you mind elaborating?
In my opinion, as Paladins are thematically very defense oriented, it shouldn't be surprising if they lack a major attack in their primary skillset. I wouldn't say you shouldn't have something, but I imagine it wouldn't be very high on the list of priorities.
Now if I had my way, I'd turn shield bash into a non-damaging maneuver similar to some of the brawling moves. Either a balance reducer or a shield/parry debuff (hey I just knocked your sword/shield way out of position!).
P.S. I personally have issues with attacks contesting skills that are not primarily learned by attacking, so I'm biased.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
TAGHZ
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 07:03 PM CDT
I would love to turn our shield into a large gong bell have similar affects as scream against our enemies.
Crusader Taghz
DFA = DISC + AGIL + TM > Evasion + Reflex
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
Crusader Taghz
DFA = DISC + AGIL + TM > Evasion + Reflex
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother...", William Shakespeare.
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 07:08 PM CDT
>I would love to turn our shield into a large gong bell have similar affects as scream against our enemies.
Why just the shield? Make your armor right and not only do you get to be a gong, but you also get a massage while it rings. Side effects include hearing loss, chafing straps, inability to move quietly, repeated arrests for disturbing the peace, and/or spontaneous death.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Why just the shield? Make your armor right and not only do you get to be a gong, but you also get a massage while it rings. Side effects include hearing loss, chafing straps, inability to move quietly, repeated arrests for disturbing the peace, and/or spontaneous death.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
THOMASWIZ
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 07:09 PM CDT
I don't find the ability all that weak. I just usually never remember to use it.
> rem shield
You loosen the straps securing your tower shield and remove it.
> slam
< Moving with incredible power and control, you slam a tower shield at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge, failing miserably. The shield lands a massive strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
The asaren celpeze thrashes about for a moment, then lies still.
[You're solidly balanced]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
The celpeze was unharmed too.
Vindicator Adakin of Prime
WorldsBestMagic Kastr of TF
"The Key To Immortality Is Living A Life Worth Remembering."
"Killing Time Murders Opportunities."
> rem shield
You loosen the straps securing your tower shield and remove it.
> slam
< Moving with incredible power and control, you slam a tower shield at an asaren celpeze. An asaren celpeze fails to dodge, failing miserably. The shield lands a massive strike that explodes the chest in a shower of blood and splintered ribs.
The asaren celpeze thrashes about for a moment, then lies still.
[You're solidly balanced]
[Roundtime 3 sec.]
The celpeze was unharmed too.
Vindicator Adakin of Prime
WorldsBestMagic Kastr of TF
"The Key To Immortality Is Living A Life Worth Remembering."
"Killing Time Murders Opportunities."
VMILLER4
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 07:18 PM CDT
Ok, allow me to clarify my grief.
Our best way to kill things (im talking creatures mostly) is, in my view, SF then shatter.
Both of these are tertiary skills and the best way for us to quickly dispatch enemies, odd yea? Its getting changed, and I agree it should be, but it leaves a nice void.
The reason I think we should be entitled to this is two fold: a.) it is already been introduced and b.) armor is by far the most useless skillset with only one good skill (shield) and only 1 primary defense (shield).
I recognize that snipe and backstab are contested with weapons v. evasion, however the special manuevers allow thieves and rangers to rely on stealth (primary) to supplement their secondary skill. IE. If I had 97 Light Edge I wouldnt be able to touch a swamp troll where as my thief 2 shots them regularly.
This wouldn't be such a big deal to me, aside from the TM change. And like I said, it should be done, we shouldn't be able to be our most deadly using a tertiary skill set.
Whats the point of shield bash if its only going to be junk, even to large shield using armor primary guilds? Id personally like to see whirlwind with shield but ya know, thats just a dream. Though I can think of several more ideas involving shield or armor that would make them more useful in combat without doing physical damage.
Our best way to kill things (im talking creatures mostly) is, in my view, SF then shatter.
Both of these are tertiary skills and the best way for us to quickly dispatch enemies, odd yea? Its getting changed, and I agree it should be, but it leaves a nice void.
The reason I think we should be entitled to this is two fold: a.) it is already been introduced and b.) armor is by far the most useless skillset with only one good skill (shield) and only 1 primary defense (shield).
I recognize that snipe and backstab are contested with weapons v. evasion, however the special manuevers allow thieves and rangers to rely on stealth (primary) to supplement their secondary skill. IE. If I had 97 Light Edge I wouldnt be able to touch a swamp troll where as my thief 2 shots them regularly.
This wouldn't be such a big deal to me, aside from the TM change. And like I said, it should be done, we shouldn't be able to be our most deadly using a tertiary skill set.
Whats the point of shield bash if its only going to be junk, even to large shield using armor primary guilds? Id personally like to see whirlwind with shield but ya know, thats just a dream. Though I can think of several more ideas involving shield or armor that would make them more useful in combat without doing physical damage.
KARKWUSS
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 08:20 PM CDT
shield slam is awesome when you use it right.
You just aren't.
you use a light blunt weapon with the right combo for it... and suddenly slam becomes a balance positive manouver...
then you learn of the glories of slam
one handed pikes benefit as well.
thas a few I've bothered to figure out utilizing slam effectively.
You just aren't.
you use a light blunt weapon with the right combo for it... and suddenly slam becomes a balance positive manouver...
then you learn of the glories of slam
one handed pikes benefit as well.
thas a few I've bothered to figure out utilizing slam effectively.
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 08:20 PM CDT
> b.) armor is by far the most useless skillset with only one good skill (shield) and only 1 primary defense (shield).
If you haven't seen it already, there is a upcoming update to improve the usefulness of high armor ranks. Check the Combat folder announcements if you haven't.
Does your opinion of the uselessness of the Armor Skillset take this into account?
Also with regard to shield usefulness,
While not exactly a perfect comparison, the similar situation of parry (a defense in the Weapon skillset) also involves severe deficiencies (not being able to block ranged/spells most of the time). Not having any insight into the programmers, the question does arise whether this is intentional, to prevent Weapon Primaries from also having an overpowering defense, and vice versa for Armor Primaries and weapons.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
If you haven't seen it already, there is a upcoming update to improve the usefulness of high armor ranks. Check the Combat folder announcements if you haven't.
Does your opinion of the uselessness of the Armor Skillset take this into account?
Also with regard to shield usefulness,
While not exactly a perfect comparison, the similar situation of parry (a defense in the Weapon skillset) also involves severe deficiencies (not being able to block ranged/spells most of the time). Not having any insight into the programmers, the question does arise whether this is intentional, to prevent Weapon Primaries from also having an overpowering defense, and vice versa for Armor Primaries and weapons.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 08:50 PM CDT
>I would love to turn our shield into a large gong bell have similar affects as scream against our enemies.
Alternatively, paladins can do a barrel roll in their tin cans and runover enemies!
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
Alternatively, paladins can do a barrel roll in their tin cans and runover enemies!
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
CHRISTIANSONK3
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 08:53 PM CDT
I don't really mind that shield slam isn't anything special. Sure against natural critters it can be alright(probably just as good as any other weapon, one attack out of a rotation). And yes you can probably post a decent list of one-shot kills(against natural critters) if you spend enough time at it. But pound for pound I think we can all agree that shield slam isn't as good as a normal weapon.
And this isn't something that is worth getting upset about. If our guild suddenly becomes the best thing since sliced bread, I really hope it isn't because they turned shield bash into the new Lightning Bolt.
-Landros
And this isn't something that is worth getting upset about. If our guild suddenly becomes the best thing since sliced bread, I really hope it isn't because they turned shield bash into the new Lightning Bolt.
-Landros
NEELD
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 09:40 PM CDT
<<If you haven't seen it already, there is a upcoming update to improve the usefulness of high armor ranks. Check the Combat folder announcements if you haven't.
<<Does your opinion of the uselessness of the Armor Skillset take this into account?
We can really only talk in the "now" as none of use know what the changes will entail. I (we) hope that armor ranks become more meaningful.
There really is no way to form an opinion on something we know nothing about other than the teasers Dart has mentioned.
However, based on those teasers, the role of armor is not changing at all. It appears that armor will remain a small percentage of a much larger defense equation.
But, we have to see how it will shake out. I firmly believe that Dart understands our concerns and has them in mind when making these upcoming changes. Frankly, I (we) really can't ask for more than someone to understand the concern and address it using a fair approach.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
<<Does your opinion of the uselessness of the Armor Skillset take this into account?
We can really only talk in the "now" as none of use know what the changes will entail. I (we) hope that armor ranks become more meaningful.
There really is no way to form an opinion on something we know nothing about other than the teasers Dart has mentioned.
However, based on those teasers, the role of armor is not changing at all. It appears that armor will remain a small percentage of a much larger defense equation.
But, we have to see how it will shake out. I firmly believe that Dart understands our concerns and has them in mind when making these upcoming changes. Frankly, I (we) really can't ask for more than someone to understand the concern and address it using a fair approach.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
KARKWUSS
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/27/2009 10:11 PM CDT
i agree Landros, although being able to slam whirl everything at melee and knocking it back to pole and doin a lil damage would be grand... id hate to see it become a major tool in our arsonal in leu of some of the other things thought of and/or half implimented.
VMILLER4
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 01:52 AM CDT
<Does your opinion of the uselessness of the Armor Skillset take this into account?>
I have recently returned from a long break; a few days ago i got caught up with all the upcoming changes.
At first, I was glad. Relieved really, that the Gods have taken notice of the situation. Then doubts set in. I have the upmost respect for the staff here. My concern is that armor may not be something that is able to be fixed.
The problem seems to be this: even at mediocre levels the only serious threats are from 'open' rolls. If HP protects more against those then there is no threat, and if HP doesn't then it offers no more benefit than chain or top quality leathers. The higher your ranks, the tougher your mobs, the more true this becomes.
So what to do? I am coming up with very little that I personally would do to make armor a good choice as a primary skillset; consider this:
Armor, weapons and survival each have 1 primary defense. Hiding/stalking + evasion = great, yes?
Weapons + parry + MO = 1 straight defense that is needing work (parry i agree sucks, i only learn it to circle through classes) MO is a nice perk, add weapons and it becomes quite attractive.
Then there is armor, for the guild of defense. We have one straight defense that is < evasion due to DFA spells. Then we have a bunch of skills that in no way help you in combat (see earlier open roll statements).
Im not saying shield whirlwind is the way to go, i know it isn't and if i were the coder responsible theres no way i'd do it.
Shield bash by itself is useless; I am against useless skills as a rule of thumb. It doesn't even have a niche use.
I applaud the efforts to make the skillset better, and I think discussing options may help the GMs come up with something to help them out when 'soon' arrives.
This being said, don't take this as a Paladin homer post; I currently have an array of toons who are at or greater than my current pallie in most guilds. I feel this profression needs help in its primary skillset the most.
I have recently returned from a long break; a few days ago i got caught up with all the upcoming changes.
At first, I was glad. Relieved really, that the Gods have taken notice of the situation. Then doubts set in. I have the upmost respect for the staff here. My concern is that armor may not be something that is able to be fixed.
The problem seems to be this: even at mediocre levels the only serious threats are from 'open' rolls. If HP protects more against those then there is no threat, and if HP doesn't then it offers no more benefit than chain or top quality leathers. The higher your ranks, the tougher your mobs, the more true this becomes.
So what to do? I am coming up with very little that I personally would do to make armor a good choice as a primary skillset; consider this:
Armor, weapons and survival each have 1 primary defense. Hiding/stalking + evasion = great, yes?
Weapons + parry + MO = 1 straight defense that is needing work (parry i agree sucks, i only learn it to circle through classes) MO is a nice perk, add weapons and it becomes quite attractive.
Then there is armor, for the guild of defense. We have one straight defense that is < evasion due to DFA spells. Then we have a bunch of skills that in no way help you in combat (see earlier open roll statements).
Im not saying shield whirlwind is the way to go, i know it isn't and if i were the coder responsible theres no way i'd do it.
Shield bash by itself is useless; I am against useless skills as a rule of thumb. It doesn't even have a niche use.
I applaud the efforts to make the skillset better, and I think discussing options may help the GMs come up with something to help them out when 'soon' arrives.
This being said, don't take this as a Paladin homer post; I currently have an array of toons who are at or greater than my current pallie in most guilds. I feel this profression needs help in its primary skillset the most.
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 02:16 AM CDT
>The problem seems to be this: even at mediocre levels the only serious threats are from 'open' rolls.
There are two slated updates I think that will offset this.
1) Damage itself is slated to go away from open ended number to a system that deals in percents of damage necessary to destroy a hit location. Under the new system, there will be a noticable difference from an armor that say, reduces damage by 10% and one that does it by 15%.
2) With the system's creation rewrite, we can hope that leather armor will be brought back into line and stop being fleshy plate mail and other armors will find decent niches.
I'm not saying necessarily that everything will be rosey and happy, but I think things will improve.
I think part of the issue is the same as with the Weapon skillset. Lore, Magic, and Survival all have a number of different skills each with their own seperate benefits. Weapons and armor, in a general sense, are a bunch of skills that all do the same thing. If you're good at Heavy Plate, there's very little advantage to being good at Light Plate. Compare this with say, Evasion and Climbing, or Swimming and Foraging, or even Harness and Magical Devices.
I have no idea how this can be fixed.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
There are two slated updates I think that will offset this.
1) Damage itself is slated to go away from open ended number to a system that deals in percents of damage necessary to destroy a hit location. Under the new system, there will be a noticable difference from an armor that say, reduces damage by 10% and one that does it by 15%.
2) With the system's creation rewrite, we can hope that leather armor will be brought back into line and stop being fleshy plate mail and other armors will find decent niches.
I'm not saying necessarily that everything will be rosey and happy, but I think things will improve.
I think part of the issue is the same as with the Weapon skillset. Lore, Magic, and Survival all have a number of different skills each with their own seperate benefits. Weapons and armor, in a general sense, are a bunch of skills that all do the same thing. If you're good at Heavy Plate, there's very little advantage to being good at Light Plate. Compare this with say, Evasion and Climbing, or Swimming and Foraging, or even Harness and Magical Devices.
I have no idea how this can be fixed.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
VMILLER4
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 02:32 AM CDT
<I think part of the issue is the same as with the Weapon skillset. Lore, Magic, and Survival all have a number of different skills each with their own seperate benefits. Weapons and armor, in a general sense, are a bunch of skills that all do the same thing. If you're good at Heavy Plate, there's very little advantage to being good at Light Plate. Compare this with say, Evasion and Climbing, or Swimming and Foraging, or even Harness and Magical Devices.>
Yes, this exactly coupled with wearing plate being essentially worthless. If they got through my evasion/shield, then its an open roll and I will lose what was hit.
Very well put. At least with weapons there is a benefit to having a slicer and a jabber due to resistance. And melee/ranged. Though my beef here is not with weapons, or with any other skillset. It is with armor.
Yes, this exactly coupled with wearing plate being essentially worthless. If they got through my evasion/shield, then its an open roll and I will lose what was hit.
Very well put. At least with weapons there is a benefit to having a slicer and a jabber due to resistance. And melee/ranged. Though my beef here is not with weapons, or with any other skillset. It is with armor.
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 02:47 AM CDT
I actually had a thought that would need a lot of effort to do right but might work.
Let's go retro, back to the days where you could put more than one piece of armor on each spot. For simplicity (ya right), limit to two layers maximum, and have the degree by which each category is bonused or penalized by the second layer be dependent on the armor skills. It would require a lot of work and a lot of development and tweaking.
I don't know if this would be a good idea, but in theory it would add value to being trained in more than one armor. Maybe someone else could twist this into something better.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Let's go retro, back to the days where you could put more than one piece of armor on each spot. For simplicity (ya right), limit to two layers maximum, and have the degree by which each category is bonused or penalized by the second layer be dependent on the armor skills. It would require a lot of work and a lot of development and tweaking.
I don't know if this would be a good idea, but in theory it would add value to being trained in more than one armor. Maybe someone else could twist this into something better.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 04:39 AM CDT
The only other thing I can think of is something that's never going to happen.
Rename Armor to Defense and move Parry and Evasion into it.
Like I said, not gonna happen.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Rename Armor to Defense and move Parry and Evasion into it.
Like I said, not gonna happen.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
VEE-REX
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 02:02 PM CDT
>>However, based on those teasers, the role of armor is not changing at all. It appears that armor will remain a small percentage of a much larger defense equation.
Probably so. But, there is more to blame than just armor on why it isn't as useful as it should be. I find it funny that capped bows are super powerful for TKS. Reminds me of when I used bread crumbs and stuffed bunnies as my most powerful LT weapons.
Anyway, my point was that other systems need to be re-evaluated to make armor (and Paladins especially) a strong defensive obstacle.
Vinjince
Probably so. But, there is more to blame than just armor on why it isn't as useful as it should be. I find it funny that capped bows are super powerful for TKS. Reminds me of when I used bread crumbs and stuffed bunnies as my most powerful LT weapons.
Anyway, my point was that other systems need to be re-evaluated to make armor (and Paladins especially) a strong defensive obstacle.
Vinjince
NEELD
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 03:02 PM CDT
As always, good reply Vin. As I see it, the following needs to happen in order for armor to be a useful defense:
1. Offense needs adjustment. I think this is on everyone's radar especially at high levels. This, in and of itself, will make all defenses more viable (evasion, parry, shield and armor in general). However, it does not address the relationship of armor ranks compared to evasion/parry/shield ranks (discussed in #2 below).
2. Armor needs a larger role in the defense equation. In short, how much potential does armor have to knock down the offensive number once damage gets through evasion/parry/shield and how is this calculated? Oolan disagrees with this approach for full disclosure. He and I had a nice conversation on this topic about a year ago in one of the paladin folders. Of note is an excellent post by Oolan discussing the defense equation (at least the best post on the topic I have seen to date).
3. The armor types need to scale better. The current scale makes heavy chain, light plate and bone armor not so great. I believe if you scale the armors appropriately, then there will be more of a use for all armors.
4. Absorbtion needs to grow with armor ranks.
5. Armor layering for extra protection, at the cost of greater stealth burden and evasion penalty. On the contrary side, some armors should lessen the impact on stealth and evasion penalty at the cost of less protection.
The end state should allow for a character to "tank". I believe that paladins will naturally be good at this feature because of their skilset placement, however all guilds should have the option to "tank up" if they so choose. Most importantly, the ability to "tank" should be equally as viable as a person you wants to go "stealth mode". And, just as stealth has natural bonuses for particularly "stealthy moves", tanking should have natural bonuses should you desire to protect yourself to the maximum extent possible.
As always, these are just my thoughts on the armor skillset.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
1. Offense needs adjustment. I think this is on everyone's radar especially at high levels. This, in and of itself, will make all defenses more viable (evasion, parry, shield and armor in general). However, it does not address the relationship of armor ranks compared to evasion/parry/shield ranks (discussed in #2 below).
2. Armor needs a larger role in the defense equation. In short, how much potential does armor have to knock down the offensive number once damage gets through evasion/parry/shield and how is this calculated? Oolan disagrees with this approach for full disclosure. He and I had a nice conversation on this topic about a year ago in one of the paladin folders. Of note is an excellent post by Oolan discussing the defense equation (at least the best post on the topic I have seen to date).
3. The armor types need to scale better. The current scale makes heavy chain, light plate and bone armor not so great. I believe if you scale the armors appropriately, then there will be more of a use for all armors.
4. Absorbtion needs to grow with armor ranks.
5. Armor layering for extra protection, at the cost of greater stealth burden and evasion penalty. On the contrary side, some armors should lessen the impact on stealth and evasion penalty at the cost of less protection.
The end state should allow for a character to "tank". I believe that paladins will naturally be good at this feature because of their skilset placement, however all guilds should have the option to "tank up" if they so choose. Most importantly, the ability to "tank" should be equally as viable as a person you wants to go "stealth mode". And, just as stealth has natural bonuses for particularly "stealthy moves", tanking should have natural bonuses should you desire to protect yourself to the maximum extent possible.
As always, these are just my thoughts on the armor skillset.
Madigan
Free the Paladin Guild in 2009.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 05:49 PM CDT
I notice a very big difference between HP and HC/LC, especially in multi situations, at low levels. I think that with the combat rewrite we will start to see this difference at ALL levels.
Armor rescaling would be a welcome change as well. It's currently a little difficult to take a bone armor-using character seriously.
Shield bashing - if it's too much to ask for it to be based on shield skill alone and remain competitive, how about splitting it 50/50 with offhand (since you ARE attacking with the left hand), and granting experience at that same ratio? Fair compromise?
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
Armor rescaling would be a welcome change as well. It's currently a little difficult to take a bone armor-using character seriously.
Shield bashing - if it's too much to ask for it to be based on shield skill alone and remain competitive, how about splitting it 50/50 with offhand (since you ARE attacking with the left hand), and granting experience at that same ratio? Fair compromise?
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
RAIST
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 06:01 PM CDT
>Shield bashing - if it's too much to ask for it to be based on shield skill alone and remain competitive, how about splitting it 50/50 with offhand (since you ARE attacking with the left hand), and granting experience at that same ratio? Fair compromise?
Conceptually I disagree. The shield is designed to be used in the left hand, in a similar situation to how brawling left doesn't involve OH.
Mechanically, if shield uses only one skill AND protects plus ends up more effective than an offhand weapon using two skills, then that's not exactly fair.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Conceptually I disagree. The shield is designed to be used in the left hand, in a similar situation to how brawling left doesn't involve OH.
Mechanically, if shield uses only one skill AND protects plus ends up more effective than an offhand weapon using two skills, then that's not exactly fair.
Magic's Death Caraamon Makdasi,
Gor'Tog Barbarian Extrordi...Well somewhat average
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
SLOANJ11
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 06:06 PM CDT
>I notice a very big difference between HP and HC/LC, especially in multi situations, at low levels. I think that with the combat rewrite we will start to see this difference at ALL levels.
The key here being at low levels. In grass eels, I could literally stand all day, even though I didn't have enough skill to block them yet. With 6+ (whatever the old engagement cap for them was) I would be getting hit multiple times a second, but with HP, all those hits were harmless. Meanwhile, my barbarian friend would go in there in leathers, with greater defenses, and get dead as soon as he had 3-4. The farther you get away from eels though, the less difference it makes.
The key here being at low levels. In grass eels, I could literally stand all day, even though I didn't have enough skill to block them yet. With 6+ (whatever the old engagement cap for them was) I would be getting hit multiple times a second, but with HP, all those hits were harmless. Meanwhile, my barbarian friend would go in there in leathers, with greater defenses, and get dead as soon as he had 3-4. The farther you get away from eels though, the less difference it makes.
WISECRACKDRAGON
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/28/2009 06:39 PM CDT
<<The key here being at low levels. In grass eels, I could literally stand all day, even though I didn't have enough skill to block them yet. With 6+ (whatever the old engagement cap for them was) I would be getting hit multiple times a second, but with HP, all those hits were harmless. Meanwhile, my barbarian friend would go in there in leathers, with greater defenses, and get dead as soon as he had 3-4. The farther you get away from eels though, the less difference it makes.>>
The second sentence of that part you quoted is the important/relevant bit.
<<Caraamon>>
You make good points.
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
The second sentence of that part you quoted is the important/relevant bit.
<<Caraamon>>
You make good points.
The pulzone lands a powerful strike that pokes the steel-tipped pulzone into the gryphon's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
The steel-tipped pulzone lodges itself shallowly into the forest gryphon!
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/29/2009 02:10 PM CDT
Just to toss in a more productive suggestion to the topic:
What if armor knowledge is used for "expose armor" when using thrusting melee attacks? You understand how each plate/chain interconnects, you find those grooves/joints and attack those points to inflict some armor skill penalty or deal some protection-mitigating damage.
This will give paladin primary skill set some offensive use in a reasonable manner IMO. This also gives pike and halberds some loving.
Ranged paladins with their shield knowledge might be able to puncture the victim's shield and deal some damage to left arm/left hand as they find the right point to hit, provided enough strength and attack skill.
So to recap:
Sufficient Armor skills enable paladins to:
Partial Armor*-*Piercing via Melee Jab/Thrust/Lunge attacks (pikes/halbs, some edged)
Expose Armor for temporary protection reduction via Bash/Swing/Pummel (Blunts, sword pommels. Shield bashing wouldn't make sense here since the damage is too spread out)
Partial Shield*-*Piercing to slightly damage offhand only via Ranged Puncture weapons and shield knowledge.
This also helps create some preference over edged weapons.
In the case of Armor Piercing and Expose Armor, the victim can opt to Parry to push aside the attack and foil their attempts to focus on your weak spots, which indirectly also gives Parry some love.
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
What if armor knowledge is used for "expose armor" when using thrusting melee attacks? You understand how each plate/chain interconnects, you find those grooves/joints and attack those points to inflict some armor skill penalty or deal some protection-mitigating damage.
This will give paladin primary skill set some offensive use in a reasonable manner IMO. This also gives pike and halberds some loving.
Ranged paladins with their shield knowledge might be able to puncture the victim's shield and deal some damage to left arm/left hand as they find the right point to hit, provided enough strength and attack skill.
So to recap:
Sufficient Armor skills enable paladins to:
Partial Armor*-*Piercing via Melee Jab/Thrust/Lunge attacks (pikes/halbs, some edged)
Expose Armor for temporary protection reduction via Bash/Swing/Pummel (Blunts, sword pommels. Shield bashing wouldn't make sense here since the damage is too spread out)
Partial Shield*-*Piercing to slightly damage offhand only via Ranged Puncture weapons and shield knowledge.
This also helps create some preference over edged weapons.
In the case of Armor Piercing and Expose Armor, the victim can opt to Parry to push aside the attack and foil their attempts to focus on your weak spots, which indirectly also gives Parry some love.
"When I grow up, I want to be a soulless monster trapped in a suit of enchanted armor and compelled into violent service for a commercial institution through torturous psychic conditioning." -- Armifer
VMILLER4
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
05/29/2009 06:44 PM CDT
I like the layering idea a lot. It would need much work to make it balanced but I see lots of potential with that idea!
The defense skillset also makes plenty of sense but never going to happen.. and thats all right.
I also like the line of though about the armor perks. Though I think to give piercers love like that they should focus on the piercers, not the armor set. I wouldn't be very happy using 2HE/HX knowing im missing out.
But I like the logic there and could see something like a 'armor tactics' skill learned through combat that may contribute to getting by armor/shield/maybe parry; you know how to get through shields and hp best because youve watched many mobs get by your own enough to know the best methods.
The defense skillset also makes plenty of sense but never going to happen.. and thats all right.
I also like the line of though about the armor perks. Though I think to give piercers love like that they should focus on the piercers, not the armor set. I wouldn't be very happy using 2HE/HX knowing im missing out.
But I like the logic there and could see something like a 'armor tactics' skill learned through combat that may contribute to getting by armor/shield/maybe parry; you know how to get through shields and hp best because youve watched many mobs get by your own enough to know the best methods.
JMF90
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
06/05/2009 04:39 AM CDT
I really do wonder why you keep up bringing armor layering despite the fact that it's always shot down (for valid reasons, IMO).
LOFTONM1
Re: Primary Skillset for damage
06/06/2009 04:09 PM CDT
Never say never. Just look at the empaths. They kept asking for direct access to the combat system and being told they couldn't have it, and now they're going to get critters they can slice/dice without getting shock. The guild's going to end up just like the cleric guild and the halls will be eerily empty because we're all out hunting.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
