>Fact is though, im not complaining. Maybe after bonus rewrite itll be better; im just trying to shed some light on our side of this. Stealing is the single thing our guild is supposed to be a master at above and beyond everyone else and we still do it very poorly.
And defense is the thing our guild is supposed to be a master at above and beyond everyone else and we can't even defend ourselves from a thief in our pockets.
~Coine~
MNEMOSYNE
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 02:35 AM CDT
Your supposed to be the masters of defense in combat. Not in general life. If you were the masters of all forms of defense youd be immune to poisons and diseases, couldnt be stuned, would regerate all wounds, could not feel emotional pain, could repel fire and lighting...yadda yadda..
No, paladins are primarily a combat guild. Your combat defenses are incredible. Your ability to come back from a blow astonish most everyone. You can slay evil, help your freinds, and do incredible feats.
No where under combat does it say your a master of survival skills though. Justifying ussing combat defense against stealing is like me saying i should be able to steal weapons out of peoples hands cause i can steal coins:)
-Constatine
No, paladins are primarily a combat guild. Your combat defenses are incredible. Your ability to come back from a blow astonish most everyone. You can slay evil, help your freinds, and do incredible feats.
No where under combat does it say your a master of survival skills though. Justifying ussing combat defense against stealing is like me saying i should be able to steal weapons out of peoples hands cause i can steal coins:)
-Constatine
MNEMOSYNE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 02:47 AM CDT
>Your supposed to be the masters of defense in combat. Not in general life. If you were the masters of all forms of defense youd be immune to poisons and diseases, couldnt be stuned, would regerate all wounds, could not feel emotional pain, could repel fire and lighting...yadda yadda..
Let's talk about defense. Here's a RL example: walking down the street, someone accosts you, does it really matter what they are trying to do to you if you are able to defend yourself? They could have been trying to steal from you, hurt you, kill you...doesn't matter, cause you were able to beat them off. That is defense.
I should be able to protect myself and others better than any other guild...I mean after all, we DO have the titles Protector and Defender. Unfortunately we are not allowed to protect others (due to policy) and we are unable to protect ourselves against people (although critters are usually no problem) for the most part. I never stated we should be perfect with defense, just that we should be better at it than any other guild because we are supposed to be masters of defense.
>No where under combat does it say your a master of survival skills though. Justifying ussing combat defense against stealing is like me saying i should be able to steal weapons out of peoples hands cause i can steal coins:)
::coughs::
Excuse me? People (IG) can't hold coins in their hands...and you, as a thief, are perfectly capable of taking gems out of someone's hands.
~player of Coine~
Let's talk about defense. Here's a RL example: walking down the street, someone accosts you, does it really matter what they are trying to do to you if you are able to defend yourself? They could have been trying to steal from you, hurt you, kill you...doesn't matter, cause you were able to beat them off. That is defense.
I should be able to protect myself and others better than any other guild...I mean after all, we DO have the titles Protector and Defender. Unfortunately we are not allowed to protect others (due to policy) and we are unable to protect ourselves against people (although critters are usually no problem) for the most part. I never stated we should be perfect with defense, just that we should be better at it than any other guild because we are supposed to be masters of defense.
>No where under combat does it say your a master of survival skills though. Justifying ussing combat defense against stealing is like me saying i should be able to steal weapons out of peoples hands cause i can steal coins:)
::coughs::
Excuse me? People (IG) can't hold coins in their hands...and you, as a thief, are perfectly capable of taking gems out of someone's hands.
~player of Coine~
MNEMOSYNE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 02:55 AM CDT
>Since the armor hinderance changes...no one is really forcing you to train in such heavy armors. Paladins excell in almost all armors far beyond anyone else (im pretty sure they have the lowest hinderance for all type but not sure). Since parry/shield and even evade (which i know you do rarely) teach a sufficient amount of armor, stamina is no longer so deathly important. In my day it was though- no longer though. Your choice to not train agility or reflexes (a defensive stat...i dont see why you WOULDN train reflexes (also helps perception (hint hint))) is exactly that, your choice.
1. As we learn armor the best, doesn't it make sense for us to learn the best armor the most? Heavy Plate -IS- the best armor, and as such, we still need strength to wear it.
2. Many of us 'old fogies' as I was called tonight ::grumbles:: began learning armor a long time ago and couldn't learn more than one type of armor at a time for a very long time.
3. Evasion is learned pretty well actually after about 150 ranks of a particular armor.
4. Stamina is still a very important factor for paladins. Go stand in a swarm area of whatever level of critter you are training at...heck, stand in a swarm area of one under that and let say, oh, 6 or 7 of the beasts just hit you over and over again for a little while so you can learn armor well...we'll see how much stamina you need.
5. And lastly, I have focused on nothing but agility and reflex for the past 7 circles, trying to catch it up to my strength and stamina. You are right, training it or not training it was a choice, but a choice I wasn't permitted due to necessity to make until recently.
~Coine~
1. As we learn armor the best, doesn't it make sense for us to learn the best armor the most? Heavy Plate -IS- the best armor, and as such, we still need strength to wear it.
2. Many of us 'old fogies' as I was called tonight ::grumbles:: began learning armor a long time ago and couldn't learn more than one type of armor at a time for a very long time.
3. Evasion is learned pretty well actually after about 150 ranks of a particular armor.
4. Stamina is still a very important factor for paladins. Go stand in a swarm area of whatever level of critter you are training at...heck, stand in a swarm area of one under that and let say, oh, 6 or 7 of the beasts just hit you over and over again for a little while so you can learn armor well...we'll see how much stamina you need.
5. And lastly, I have focused on nothing but agility and reflex for the past 7 circles, trying to catch it up to my strength and stamina. You are right, training it or not training it was a choice, but a choice I wasn't permitted due to necessity to make until recently.
~Coine~
MNEMOSYNE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 02:58 AM CDT
>True were not poor at it, we are the best, but were not as good at thieving as say...a mm is at spells, a empath is at healing, a barb or paladin is at fighting. As far as why its not a 50% chance you have to consider a thieves agility (REALLY high) and a paladin reflexes (rarely above average). Then a thief is in town, thats another big bonus. Then their special abilities. Thats another big bonus. So in the end, i wouldnt say its half the time or close to that. Thats why a same level thief should steal the pants off a paladin and a paladin break their face if they do fail (and there is always a chance a thief will fail). Thats the reason its not 50%. Now take a barbarian with X amount of stealing ranks against you, and yes id say 50%.
You just admitted that the Thief guild has a bonus in stealing above and beyond other guilds. They also have bonuses in disarm, lockpick and stalking. If you are better than any other guild, doesn't that make you 'masters at stealing'? A master is someone who does something better than anyone else can, not that they've 'reached perfection', as there is no such thing.
You just admitted that the Thief guild has a bonus in stealing above and beyond other guilds. They also have bonuses in disarm, lockpick and stalking. If you are better than any other guild, doesn't that make you 'masters at stealing'? A master is someone who does something better than anyone else can, not that they've 'reached perfection', as there is no such thing.
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 02:58 AM CDT
<<Let's talk about defense. Here's a RL example: walking down the street, someone accosts you, does it really matter what they are trying to do to you if you are able to defend yourself? They could have been trying to steal from you, hurt you, kill you...doesn't matter, cause you were able to beat them off. That is defense>>
Thats a physical defense yes. You could over power our out manuever the known threat to stop them.
<<I should be able to protect myself and others better than any other guild...I mean after all, we DO have the titles Protector and Defender.>>
And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.
<<I never stated we should be perfect with defense, just that we should be better at it than any other guild because we are supposed to be masters of defense.
>>
With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.
But thats physical defense. You are being attacked, you use your combat knowledge to fix that. A thief does not fight you. You do not see the threat. You have a sixth sense due to all your combat experiance so you know something is...sorta wrong..but you cannot see the threat to use your COMBAT defenses against them.
Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.
<<Excuse me? People (IG) can't hold coins in their hands...and you, as a thief, are perfectly capable of taking gems out of someone's hands.
>>
Thats wher emy point was leading. If I as a thief can take a small item out of your hands without your knowing, such as a gem, why shouldnt i be able to take a dagger out of your hands? It makes sense in the real world, albeit in a game where balance issues must be maintained its not reasonable. Your being able to block a lance with ease, or take a blow that would kill a normal man and shrug it off does not translates with you being able to catch a thief. Its not the same ball park, not even the same game.
Ive seen a slew of paladins defend themselves well with high perceptions and clarity. Just because you are survival tert does not mean you are barred from every learning perception. And the stealing system is set up in your favor to begin with. Add in a spice of HoJ, a dash of Clarity to know whose doing what, and some bam from glyph of light and your not so bad off now are ya? Does it replicate stealing ranks? Nope. But then again you gave up stealing ranks knowingly when you became a paladin. Your nifty bag of magic goodies shouldnt componsate a guild penalty, it instead finds new ways to aid you by being inventive while not over powered.
-Constatine
Thats a physical defense yes. You could over power our out manuever the known threat to stop them.
<<I should be able to protect myself and others better than any other guild...I mean after all, we DO have the titles Protector and Defender.>>
And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.
<<I never stated we should be perfect with defense, just that we should be better at it than any other guild because we are supposed to be masters of defense.
>>
With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.
But thats physical defense. You are being attacked, you use your combat knowledge to fix that. A thief does not fight you. You do not see the threat. You have a sixth sense due to all your combat experiance so you know something is...sorta wrong..but you cannot see the threat to use your COMBAT defenses against them.
Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.
<<Excuse me? People (IG) can't hold coins in their hands...and you, as a thief, are perfectly capable of taking gems out of someone's hands.
>>
Thats wher emy point was leading. If I as a thief can take a small item out of your hands without your knowing, such as a gem, why shouldnt i be able to take a dagger out of your hands? It makes sense in the real world, albeit in a game where balance issues must be maintained its not reasonable. Your being able to block a lance with ease, or take a blow that would kill a normal man and shrug it off does not translates with you being able to catch a thief. Its not the same ball park, not even the same game.
Ive seen a slew of paladins defend themselves well with high perceptions and clarity. Just because you are survival tert does not mean you are barred from every learning perception. And the stealing system is set up in your favor to begin with. Add in a spice of HoJ, a dash of Clarity to know whose doing what, and some bam from glyph of light and your not so bad off now are ya? Does it replicate stealing ranks? Nope. But then again you gave up stealing ranks knowingly when you became a paladin. Your nifty bag of magic goodies shouldnt componsate a guild penalty, it instead finds new ways to aid you by being inventive while not over powered.
-Constatine
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:03 AM CDT
<<As we learn armor the best, doesn't it make sense for us to learn the best armor the most? Heavy Plate -IS- the best armor, and as such, we still need strength to wear it.
>>
Doubt dammisak would ever say that. Metal armos have horrid protection to electricity and just because you can train all armors down to say ..1 % doesnt mean they all offer you the same amount of hinderance to skills. Leather always gives the least hinderance, plate the most.
<<Many of us 'old fogies' as I was called tonight ::grumbles:: began learning armor a long time ago and couldn't learn more than one type of armor at a time for a very long time.
>>
Thats odd, many people pulled it off well. I know thieves (armor tert) with 100 ranks in 4 different types of armor (not including leather). If they can do that with a tert skill, you can certainly train some perception:P
<<Evasion is learned pretty well actually after about 150 ranks of a particular armor>>
Didnt say it wasnt. Im just saying comparitavly a paladin does not evade nearly as much as they block or parry.
<<Stamina is still a very important factor for paladins. Go stand in a swarm area of whatever level of critter you are training at...heck, stand in a swarm area of one under that and let say, oh, 6 or 7 of the beasts just hit you over and over again for a little while so you can learn armor well...we'll see how much stamina you need.
>>
Its your choice to train stamina. You could train reflexes and agility to help with your MO and defenses so you could survive that swarm by not getting hit instead of surviving the hits.
<<And lastly, I have focused on nothing but agility and reflex for the past 7 circles, trying to catch it up to my strength and stamina. You are right, training it or not training it was a choice, but a choice I wasn't permitted due to necessity to make until recently.
>>
Your never forced to train any specific way. There are plenty of lighter sets of HP which can be worn with light or so encumbrance without uber amounts of stamina. If you want to wear the best though, that again, was your choice.
-Constatine
>>
Doubt dammisak would ever say that. Metal armos have horrid protection to electricity and just because you can train all armors down to say ..1 % doesnt mean they all offer you the same amount of hinderance to skills. Leather always gives the least hinderance, plate the most.
<<Many of us 'old fogies' as I was called tonight ::grumbles:: began learning armor a long time ago and couldn't learn more than one type of armor at a time for a very long time.
>>
Thats odd, many people pulled it off well. I know thieves (armor tert) with 100 ranks in 4 different types of armor (not including leather). If they can do that with a tert skill, you can certainly train some perception:P
<<Evasion is learned pretty well actually after about 150 ranks of a particular armor>>
Didnt say it wasnt. Im just saying comparitavly a paladin does not evade nearly as much as they block or parry.
<<Stamina is still a very important factor for paladins. Go stand in a swarm area of whatever level of critter you are training at...heck, stand in a swarm area of one under that and let say, oh, 6 or 7 of the beasts just hit you over and over again for a little while so you can learn armor well...we'll see how much stamina you need.
>>
Its your choice to train stamina. You could train reflexes and agility to help with your MO and defenses so you could survive that swarm by not getting hit instead of surviving the hits.
<<And lastly, I have focused on nothing but agility and reflex for the past 7 circles, trying to catch it up to my strength and stamina. You are right, training it or not training it was a choice, but a choice I wasn't permitted due to necessity to make until recently.
>>
Your never forced to train any specific way. There are plenty of lighter sets of HP which can be worn with light or so encumbrance without uber amounts of stamina. If you want to wear the best though, that again, was your choice.
-Constatine
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:12 AM CDT
<<You just admitted that the Thief guild has a bonus in stealing above and beyond other guilds. They also have bonuses in disarm, lockpick and stalking. If you are better than any other guild, doesn't that make you 'masters at stealing'? A master is someone who does something better than anyone else can, not that they've 'reached perfection', as there is no such thing.
>>
Ok part by part..
<<You just admitted that the Thief guild has a bonus in stealing above and beyond other guilds. >>
Never said we did not have a bonus. Never said the bonus was not very nice. I simply stated the system surronding this bonus was very flawed and most thieves that are activly training rarely are at 100% very often. This bonus can even go into negative values....
<<If you are better than any other guild, doesn't that make you 'masters at stealing'?>>
Did I say we wernt the masters of stealing? Yes we ARE the masters of stealing. We still do it very poorly. Just because were better then everyone else doesnt mean much.
Take you, a combat guild. Lets say your going out to train....mmm parry, 250 ranks.
Lets say before you go parry you go to a goblin. Heck you lie down even. An hour latter Joe Goblin hasnt come near to hitting you.
Lets say Moe Thief (250 ranks) goes to warm up a stealing trip on young barb with 15 ranks of perception. Goodnes he is caught! Gasp....
Now you go out and train your parry skill. Mostly hunting goes well, your such a good combat guild that you rock at it. Sure once and while you fail and get hit but you shrug off the blows mostly. Unless you let yourself get surronded your not at a risk and mmmm learning nicely.
Now Moe Thief goes on his stealing run. Hmm starts off fine, o look stealings muddled, great. A few more shops should be great...o drat i failed my skill check once, twice....three times....... Well i have to stop stealing for hours because my bonus just got shot and continouing to steal is just asking to have it keep going.. Let me stalk to a safe part of the city...o great the super guard grabed me...drat..jail..... O yippie a fine 10x the amount i could make off 20 stealing runs... And lets see i get caught once per 3-4 stealing runs...
Theres the big difference. Sure were the 'masters' of it. Its still a joke though.
-Constatine
>>
Ok part by part..
<<You just admitted that the Thief guild has a bonus in stealing above and beyond other guilds. >>
Never said we did not have a bonus. Never said the bonus was not very nice. I simply stated the system surronding this bonus was very flawed and most thieves that are activly training rarely are at 100% very often. This bonus can even go into negative values....
<<If you are better than any other guild, doesn't that make you 'masters at stealing'?>>
Did I say we wernt the masters of stealing? Yes we ARE the masters of stealing. We still do it very poorly. Just because were better then everyone else doesnt mean much.
Take you, a combat guild. Lets say your going out to train....mmm parry, 250 ranks.
Lets say before you go parry you go to a goblin. Heck you lie down even. An hour latter Joe Goblin hasnt come near to hitting you.
Lets say Moe Thief (250 ranks) goes to warm up a stealing trip on young barb with 15 ranks of perception. Goodnes he is caught! Gasp....
Now you go out and train your parry skill. Mostly hunting goes well, your such a good combat guild that you rock at it. Sure once and while you fail and get hit but you shrug off the blows mostly. Unless you let yourself get surronded your not at a risk and mmmm learning nicely.
Now Moe Thief goes on his stealing run. Hmm starts off fine, o look stealings muddled, great. A few more shops should be great...o drat i failed my skill check once, twice....three times....... Well i have to stop stealing for hours because my bonus just got shot and continouing to steal is just asking to have it keep going.. Let me stalk to a safe part of the city...o great the super guard grabed me...drat..jail..... O yippie a fine 10x the amount i could make off 20 stealing runs... And lets see i get caught once per 3-4 stealing runs...
Theres the big difference. Sure were the 'masters' of it. Its still a joke though.
-Constatine
LYNEMN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:29 AM CDT
I think you're overestimating how many times you actually get caught...
And I think you're GRAVELY overestimating the effectiveness of perception. I can be robbed by a thief with less agility than I have reflex and with about 1/4 as many stealing ranks as I have perception.
Heck, I've even been robbed by someone with like less than 10 ranks of stealing when I had over 100 more perception ranks than she had stealing... an EMPATH no less. With NO bonus.
I'm likely to catch someone with 1/4 as much stealing as I have perception and around the same agility as I have reflex.... about 1 out of every 10 tries. While said thief can successfully grab several times before caught.
If you want to train stealing without being arrested.... rob the beggar. Or another willing target. For practice. Easy as that...
And I think you're GRAVELY overestimating the effectiveness of perception. I can be robbed by a thief with less agility than I have reflex and with about 1/4 as many stealing ranks as I have perception.
Heck, I've even been robbed by someone with like less than 10 ranks of stealing when I had over 100 more perception ranks than she had stealing... an EMPATH no less. With NO bonus.
I'm likely to catch someone with 1/4 as much stealing as I have perception and around the same agility as I have reflex.... about 1 out of every 10 tries. While said thief can successfully grab several times before caught.
If you want to train stealing without being arrested.... rob the beggar. Or another willing target. For practice. Easy as that...
LYNEMN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:32 AM CDT
Oh... another thing I'd like to comment on.
My perception is higher than the number of stealing ranks a thief is required to have at my circle.
So they shouldn't really be THAT great at grabbing off me... especially not when they're half my circle.
I know circle isn't everything, but it is the best gauge we have....
My perception is higher than the number of stealing ranks a thief is required to have at my circle.
So they shouldn't really be THAT great at grabbing off me... especially not when they're half my circle.
I know circle isn't everything, but it is the best gauge we have....
MNEMOSYNE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:38 AM CDT
>Thats a physical defense yes. You could over power our out manuever the known threat to stop them.
Exactly...EVEN if they were simply attempting to steal from you.
>And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.
Only thing I know of that will definitely work is Banner of Truce...IF the paladin has the spell, IF it's not resisted, and IF said victim isn't dragged off.
>With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.
What does 'aid after the grave' have to do with defense?
>But thats physical defense. You are being attacked, you use your combat knowledge to fix that. A thief does not fight you. You do not see the threat. You have a sixth sense due to all your combat experiance so you know something is...sorta wrong..but you cannot see the threat to use your COMBAT defenses against them.
I'm sorry, but I consider stealing to be an attack on my person. This applies both to Suz as the player and to Coine as the character. Someone IRL comes up to mug me on a city street...they are probably going to get hurt (as one of my co-workers found out when he was trying to play a joke on me) because my natural defenses come out. The same should be true of someone stealing from me IG.
>Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.
I will agree that Clarity and HoJ help. However, even with those up, my agility/reflex stats (which aren't as high as my strength but they are getting up there, due to my focusing on them solely the last 7 circles), and my perception (which is about average for a paladin of my circle), I am still unable to catch a thief 15 circles below me in my pockets until he's put his hands there at least 2 or 3 times. GoL WOULD make me be able to catch him the first time, but honestly, it's rarely worth the soul cost.
>Thats wher emy point was leading. If I as a thief can take a small item out of your hands without your knowing, such as a gem, why shouldnt i be able to take a dagger out of your hands? It makes sense in the real world, albeit in a game where balance issues must be maintained its not reasonable. Your being able to block a lance with ease, or take a blow that would kill a normal man and shrug it off does not translates with you being able to catch a thief. Its not the same ball park, not even the same game.
It is in the same ball park and game, as anyone invading my personal space for any reason is an attack on me and I should be able to defend myself better as a paladin than as any other guild.
As for the rewrite for the Thief guild you've brought up numerous times, as I stated before, I've never once said that your guild had it perfect. But consider this...if we are getting a soul rewrite, doesn't that tell you that our soul system isn't what it should be?
~Coine and player of~
Exactly...EVEN if they were simply attempting to steal from you.
>And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.
Only thing I know of that will definitely work is Banner of Truce...IF the paladin has the spell, IF it's not resisted, and IF said victim isn't dragged off.
>With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.
What does 'aid after the grave' have to do with defense?
>But thats physical defense. You are being attacked, you use your combat knowledge to fix that. A thief does not fight you. You do not see the threat. You have a sixth sense due to all your combat experiance so you know something is...sorta wrong..but you cannot see the threat to use your COMBAT defenses against them.
I'm sorry, but I consider stealing to be an attack on my person. This applies both to Suz as the player and to Coine as the character. Someone IRL comes up to mug me on a city street...they are probably going to get hurt (as one of my co-workers found out when he was trying to play a joke on me) because my natural defenses come out. The same should be true of someone stealing from me IG.
>Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.
I will agree that Clarity and HoJ help. However, even with those up, my agility/reflex stats (which aren't as high as my strength but they are getting up there, due to my focusing on them solely the last 7 circles), and my perception (which is about average for a paladin of my circle), I am still unable to catch a thief 15 circles below me in my pockets until he's put his hands there at least 2 or 3 times. GoL WOULD make me be able to catch him the first time, but honestly, it's rarely worth the soul cost.
>Thats wher emy point was leading. If I as a thief can take a small item out of your hands without your knowing, such as a gem, why shouldnt i be able to take a dagger out of your hands? It makes sense in the real world, albeit in a game where balance issues must be maintained its not reasonable. Your being able to block a lance with ease, or take a blow that would kill a normal man and shrug it off does not translates with you being able to catch a thief. Its not the same ball park, not even the same game.
It is in the same ball park and game, as anyone invading my personal space for any reason is an attack on me and I should be able to defend myself better as a paladin than as any other guild.
As for the rewrite for the Thief guild you've brought up numerous times, as I stated before, I've never once said that your guild had it perfect. But consider this...if we are getting a soul rewrite, doesn't that tell you that our soul system isn't what it should be?
~Coine and player of~
MNEMOSYNE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:45 AM CDT
>Thats odd, many people pulled it off well. I know thieves (armor tert) with 100 ranks in 4 different types of armor (not including leather). If they can do that with a tert skill, you can certainly train some perception:P
I -didn't- say I haven't trained other armors. My point was that we were around when HP was the ONLY way to go, and you could only learn the armor you were wearing on your chest. How you can continue to jump from one point to something totally different and unrelated is beyond me.
>Its your choice to train stamina. You could train reflexes and agility to help with your MO and defenses so you could survive that swarm by not getting hit instead of surviving the hits.
If you don't get hit...you don't really learn. And don't tell me different because I've been training my paladin a long long time.
I -didn't- say I haven't trained other armors. My point was that we were around when HP was the ONLY way to go, and you could only learn the armor you were wearing on your chest. How you can continue to jump from one point to something totally different and unrelated is beyond me.
>Its your choice to train stamina. You could train reflexes and agility to help with your MO and defenses so you could survive that swarm by not getting hit instead of surviving the hits.
If you don't get hit...you don't really learn. And don't tell me different because I've been training my paladin a long long time.
LENNONJON
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 04:45 AM CDT
<<Your supposed to be the masters of defense in combat. >>
Supposed to be, but are not.
We all know evasion is king (GM's agree with this time and time again). However, the defense guild has the "king" defense tertiatry. After evasion we have a choice of shield or parry...OK so we have shield as a primary skill. This means we can attempt to block what our tertiary evasion misses. If the attack gets past shield, well then we have our secondary skill parry to attempt tp block the blow. Once it gets by there the armor gets a chance to keep us from being beat to crap. However, with armor it doesn't seem to start protecting at is appraised stats until between 200 and 300 ranks. So what does that mean. Well the primary defense (evasion) is our tertiary skill. Our secondary defense is a choice between shield (primary skill) or parry (secondary skill). Then after this we get a chance to have another primary skill, which doesn't mean squat until expert + ranks help us out. As a defense guild we suck...
<<And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.>>
Ohh please do share these wondrous skills with me Mr. teefyteef...Are you speaking of halt? A spell which is based off a tertiary skill and is too easily turned on the casted by barbs or teefs who have the munchies? Or is there some other "skill" in our arsenal?
<<With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.>>
DA sucks. You cast this when you have multiple pieces of armor on you die quick due to the hinderance...Courage is a great spell, I won't deny this. What are the other things that "aid after the grave", and what the hell does that term even mean? Defense is about defending. Not helping the dead...
<<Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.>>
And like most of your conjecture you have never used these skills firsthand...Let me try this in ENGLISH. Clarity does not give a perception boost. It gives a boost to the spidey sense. It tells us when someone is stealing from us, stalking us, or marking us. It does not however, protect us from it. HOJ is a joke, the theif still gets the gem or coin, we lose the right to accuse, and all the thief has to do is take a bite of yelith which any 5th circle individual can forage...
<< And the stealing system is set up in your favor to begin with. >>
I always laugh at this...You want a system where cheaters (i.e. thiefs) get the benifit of the doubt. We want a system where every guild gets equal opportunity to protect themselves form theft. Why should Paladins, "justice entitites" be denied this? As far as stealing is currently handled in this game its pretty rediculous. You can steal a gem form my hand without me knowing...Oddly when I hold something in my hand I tend to know its there, or see if someones tries to or does take it from me.
--Just a Squire
Supposed to be, but are not.
We all know evasion is king (GM's agree with this time and time again). However, the defense guild has the "king" defense tertiatry. After evasion we have a choice of shield or parry...OK so we have shield as a primary skill. This means we can attempt to block what our tertiary evasion misses. If the attack gets past shield, well then we have our secondary skill parry to attempt tp block the blow. Once it gets by there the armor gets a chance to keep us from being beat to crap. However, with armor it doesn't seem to start protecting at is appraised stats until between 200 and 300 ranks. So what does that mean. Well the primary defense (evasion) is our tertiary skill. Our secondary defense is a choice between shield (primary skill) or parry (secondary skill). Then after this we get a chance to have another primary skill, which doesn't mean squat until expert + ranks help us out. As a defense guild we suck...
<<And you do. You have many skills which can stop harm on others.>>
Ohh please do share these wondrous skills with me Mr. teefyteef...Are you speaking of halt? A spell which is based off a tertiary skill and is too easily turned on the casted by barbs or teefs who have the munchies? Or is there some other "skill" in our arsenal?
<<With the ability of divine armor, courage (gravely powerfull (but not over powered0 spell), and a slew of other things, including aid after the grave, you are the kings of defense and can help out alot.>>
DA sucks. You cast this when you have multiple pieces of armor on you die quick due to the hinderance...Courage is a great spell, I won't deny this. What are the other things that "aid after the grave", and what the hell does that term even mean? Defense is about defending. Not helping the dead...
<<Spells like clarity and HoJ allow magic to act as a second set of eyes of you, albeit since they are not real phsyical eyes, they probably arnt as effective: albeit they are additional chances to stop someon or know of a danger well in advance.>>
And like most of your conjecture you have never used these skills firsthand...Let me try this in ENGLISH. Clarity does not give a perception boost. It gives a boost to the spidey sense. It tells us when someone is stealing from us, stalking us, or marking us. It does not however, protect us from it. HOJ is a joke, the theif still gets the gem or coin, we lose the right to accuse, and all the thief has to do is take a bite of yelith which any 5th circle individual can forage...
<< And the stealing system is set up in your favor to begin with. >>
I always laugh at this...You want a system where cheaters (i.e. thiefs) get the benifit of the doubt. We want a system where every guild gets equal opportunity to protect themselves form theft. Why should Paladins, "justice entitites" be denied this? As far as stealing is currently handled in this game its pretty rediculous. You can steal a gem form my hand without me knowing...Oddly when I hold something in my hand I tend to know its there, or see if someones tries to or does take it from me.
--Just a Squire
BARBAROUS
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 06:12 AM CDT
>>You can steal a gem form my hand without me knowing...Oddly when I hold something in my hand I tend to know its there, or see if someones tries to or does take it from me.
I'd have to agree here. That's just re-God-damn-diculous. It's not as if I walk around with a gem resting on my open palm held out in front of me (or behind me, as I would still see someone take a gem out of my open palm).
-Stohmp-
I'd have to agree here. That's just re-God-damn-diculous. It's not as if I walk around with a gem resting on my open palm held out in front of me (or behind me, as I would still see someone take a gem out of my open palm).
-Stohmp-
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 09:09 AM CDT
<<Supposed to be, but are not.
<<We all know evasion is king (GM's agree with this time and time again). However, the defense guild has the "king" defense tertiatry. After evasion we have a choice of shield or parry...OK so we have shield as a primary skill. This means we can attempt to block what our tertiary evasion misses. If the attack gets past shield, well then we have our secondary skill parry to attempt tp block the blow. Once it gets by there the armor gets a chance to keep us from being beat to crap. However, with armor it doesn't seem to start protecting at is appraised stats until between 200 and 300 ranks. So what does that mean. Well the primary defense (evasion) is our tertiary skill. Our secondary defense is a choice between shield (primary skill) or parry (secondary skill). Then after this we get a chance to have another primary skill, which doesn't mean squat until expert + ranks help us out. As a defense guild we suck...
its dependant on where you hunt. I think added protections comes before 200.
<<Ohh please do share these wondrous skills with me Mr. teefyteef...Are you speaking of halt? A spell which is based off a tertiary skill and is too easily turned on the casted by barbs or teefs who have the munchies? Or is there some other "skill" in our arsenal?
halt can be done on a level 90th thief with a prep of 12 from me. With thier "munchies" i can prolly cant do it. But the bonus they has grows. Its the only way it makes sense to me.
<<DA sucks. You cast this when you have multiple pieces of armor on you die quick due to the hinderance...Courage is a great spell, I won't deny this. What are the other things that "aid after the grave", and what the hell does that term even mean? Defense is about defending. Not helping the dead...
DA does not suck. If you have a base ranks of about 100 in each you can learn and stay alive in it. I can do zombies caracals celepeze trekhalo with all armors up a shield out and dance for a while to lock all armors with DA up. With a shield (ironbuckler) out i get somewhat hindered.
<<And like most of your conjecture you have never used these skills firsthand...Let me try this in ENGLISH. Clarity does not give a perception boost. It gives a boost to the spidey sense. It tells us when someone is stealing from us, stalking us, or marking us. It does not however, protect us from it. HOJ is a joke, the theif still gets the gem or coin, we lose the right to accuse, and all the thief has to do is take a bite of yelith which any 5th circle individual can forage...
this is touchy. Since in it doesnt affect our active perception ranks. Meaning you cant see a person hide (thats why you should carry avaes runes ) but it does affect your passive perception ranks which does affect spidey senses. I think Da Rock used to have about close to 300 in perception. He didnt have to use clarity all the time on the younger thieves cause he could see them mark and steal most of the time. Spidey sense do use perception ranks as a base i believe.
though the laughability of HOJ really sucks. I try to not use it when i am in certain situations. with 200+ perception can i crush hands as high as 90th. Yes. If they munch out. And I have CV/GOL/Clarity/HOJ/Perception enchant and good moonie prediction. I wont even see them the first 10-15 times.
<<I always laugh at this...You want a system where cheaters (i.e. thiefs) get the benifit of the doubt. We want a system where every guild gets equal opportunity to protect themselves form theft. Why should Paladins, "justice entitites" be denied this? As far as stealing is currently handled in this game its pretty rediculous. You can steal a gem form my hand without me knowing...Oddly when I hold something in my hand I tend to know its there, or see if someones tries to or does take it from me.
stealing is slated for a rewrite. There are many problems with it. There should be alot of things that will happen. But paladins are gonna be bound to the justice system as well as the eventual bounty system. Will seem wierd to me that a person training specifically to catch thieves (not all cause there will be the people that are exceptional) can not catch one. We dont need to complain about this for another month. Magic rewrite is coming, stealing rewrite will hopefully be taken up by someone soon and will address the problems with the current stealing system. Lets take a breather and do at least a month of waiting. Maybe paladin spells will change positively for both paladins and thief alike.
Clyn
<<We all know evasion is king (GM's agree with this time and time again). However, the defense guild has the "king" defense tertiatry. After evasion we have a choice of shield or parry...OK so we have shield as a primary skill. This means we can attempt to block what our tertiary evasion misses. If the attack gets past shield, well then we have our secondary skill parry to attempt tp block the blow. Once it gets by there the armor gets a chance to keep us from being beat to crap. However, with armor it doesn't seem to start protecting at is appraised stats until between 200 and 300 ranks. So what does that mean. Well the primary defense (evasion) is our tertiary skill. Our secondary defense is a choice between shield (primary skill) or parry (secondary skill). Then after this we get a chance to have another primary skill, which doesn't mean squat until expert + ranks help us out. As a defense guild we suck...
its dependant on where you hunt. I think added protections comes before 200.
<<Ohh please do share these wondrous skills with me Mr. teefyteef...Are you speaking of halt? A spell which is based off a tertiary skill and is too easily turned on the casted by barbs or teefs who have the munchies? Or is there some other "skill" in our arsenal?
halt can be done on a level 90th thief with a prep of 12 from me. With thier "munchies" i can prolly cant do it. But the bonus they has grows. Its the only way it makes sense to me.
<<DA sucks. You cast this when you have multiple pieces of armor on you die quick due to the hinderance...Courage is a great spell, I won't deny this. What are the other things that "aid after the grave", and what the hell does that term even mean? Defense is about defending. Not helping the dead...
DA does not suck. If you have a base ranks of about 100 in each you can learn and stay alive in it. I can do zombies caracals celepeze trekhalo with all armors up a shield out and dance for a while to lock all armors with DA up. With a shield (ironbuckler) out i get somewhat hindered.
<<And like most of your conjecture you have never used these skills firsthand...Let me try this in ENGLISH. Clarity does not give a perception boost. It gives a boost to the spidey sense. It tells us when someone is stealing from us, stalking us, or marking us. It does not however, protect us from it. HOJ is a joke, the theif still gets the gem or coin, we lose the right to accuse, and all the thief has to do is take a bite of yelith which any 5th circle individual can forage...
this is touchy. Since in it doesnt affect our active perception ranks. Meaning you cant see a person hide (thats why you should carry avaes runes ) but it does affect your passive perception ranks which does affect spidey senses. I think Da Rock used to have about close to 300 in perception. He didnt have to use clarity all the time on the younger thieves cause he could see them mark and steal most of the time. Spidey sense do use perception ranks as a base i believe.
though the laughability of HOJ really sucks. I try to not use it when i am in certain situations. with 200+ perception can i crush hands as high as 90th. Yes. If they munch out. And I have CV/GOL/Clarity/HOJ/Perception enchant and good moonie prediction. I wont even see them the first 10-15 times.
<<I always laugh at this...You want a system where cheaters (i.e. thiefs) get the benifit of the doubt. We want a system where every guild gets equal opportunity to protect themselves form theft. Why should Paladins, "justice entitites" be denied this? As far as stealing is currently handled in this game its pretty rediculous. You can steal a gem form my hand without me knowing...Oddly when I hold something in my hand I tend to know its there, or see if someones tries to or does take it from me.
stealing is slated for a rewrite. There are many problems with it. There should be alot of things that will happen. But paladins are gonna be bound to the justice system as well as the eventual bounty system. Will seem wierd to me that a person training specifically to catch thieves (not all cause there will be the people that are exceptional) can not catch one. We dont need to complain about this for another month. Magic rewrite is coming, stealing rewrite will hopefully be taken up by someone soon and will address the problems with the current stealing system. Lets take a breather and do at least a month of waiting. Maybe paladin spells will change positively for both paladins and thief alike.
Clyn
RELAYER99
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 03:22 PM CDT
>DA does not suck. If you have a base ranks of about 100 in each you can learn and stay alive in it. I can do zombies caracals celepeze trekhalo with all armors up a shield out and dance for a while to lock all armors with DA up. With a shield (ironbuckler) out i get somewhat hindered.
cough cough, celpeze huh?
cough cough, celpeze huh?
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 04:45 PM CDT
<<cough cough, celpeze huh?
getting beat up and being alive are two different things. I leave caracals with 14 bleeders sometimes. But i am alive and i locked armor. I call it a success. Being alive and available to fight later and not be dead most of the time is a victory. Utter domination on a creature means i shouldnt be learning.
Clyn
getting beat up and being alive are two different things. I leave caracals with 14 bleeders sometimes. But i am alive and i locked armor. I call it a success. Being alive and available to fight later and not be dead most of the time is a victory. Utter domination on a creature means i shouldnt be learning.
Clyn
LENNONJON
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 05:34 PM CDT
<<halt can be done on a level 90th thief with a prep of 12 from me. With thier "munchies" i can prolly cant do it. But the bonus they has grows. Its the only way it makes sense to me.>>
As I stated Cly, once they chomp on a cookie they are immune to a halt...I can't halt a thief half my circle with 310+ in PM, when they have their cookies up...My point was what are these woundrous ways we have to protect or defend people? Its not halt...
<<DA does not suck. If you have a base ranks of about 100 in each you can learn and stay alive in it. I can do zombies caracals celepeze trekhalo with all armors up a shield out and dance for a while to lock all armors with DA up. With a shield (ironbuckler) out i get somewhat hindered.>>
DA does suck...I cast DA on myself with LC shirt, HC helm, leather eye and aventail, LP gauntlets, and HP greaves and am extremely hindered...My lowest armor is the high 150's, other 2 lower ones are 160's and 70's, LP is mid expert, and HP and shield are well into savant...I cas't this spell when I have one or 2 critters on me, its fine...More than that I get beat to crap, can't retreat and have died twice...The additive affect of hinderance from this spell is a killer, making the spell as a whole junk in any situation you actually need better armor protection...
--Just a Squire
As I stated Cly, once they chomp on a cookie they are immune to a halt...I can't halt a thief half my circle with 310+ in PM, when they have their cookies up...My point was what are these woundrous ways we have to protect or defend people? Its not halt...
<<DA does not suck. If you have a base ranks of about 100 in each you can learn and stay alive in it. I can do zombies caracals celepeze trekhalo with all armors up a shield out and dance for a while to lock all armors with DA up. With a shield (ironbuckler) out i get somewhat hindered.>>
DA does suck...I cast DA on myself with LC shirt, HC helm, leather eye and aventail, LP gauntlets, and HP greaves and am extremely hindered...My lowest armor is the high 150's, other 2 lower ones are 160's and 70's, LP is mid expert, and HP and shield are well into savant...I cas't this spell when I have one or 2 critters on me, its fine...More than that I get beat to crap, can't retreat and have died twice...The additive affect of hinderance from this spell is a killer, making the spell as a whole junk in any situation you actually need better armor protection...
--Just a Squire
GONIFTHEEF
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 05:43 PM CDT
"what are these wondress ways we have to protect or defend people"?
surely you jest.
There are plenty of ways a skilled paladin can do so.
I enjoy going into combat with a paladin "LEADING"--"Couraging"--"Rallying"---and if worst comes to worst--"Bannering".
Schvartz
surely you jest.
There are plenty of ways a skilled paladin can do so.
I enjoy going into combat with a paladin "LEADING"--"Couraging"--"Rallying"---and if worst comes to worst--"Bannering".
Schvartz
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 06:26 PM CDT
<<As I stated Cly, once they chomp on a cookie they are immune to a halt...I can't halt a thief half my circle with 310+ in PM, when they have their cookies up...My point was what are these woundrous ways we have to protect or defend people? Its not halt...
i can and have.
<<DA does suck...I cast DA on myself with LC shirt, HC helm, leather eye and aventail, LP gauntlets, and HP greaves and am extremely hindered...My lowest armor is the high 150's, other 2 lower ones are 160's and 70's, LP is mid expert, and HP and shield are well into savant...I cas't this spell when I have one or 2 critters on me, its fine...More than that I get beat to crap, can't retreat and have died twice...The additive affect of hinderance from this spell is a killer, making the spell as a whole junk in any situation you actually need better armor protection...
<<--Just a Squire
maybe its time to use a different setup.
Clyn
i can and have.
<<DA does suck...I cast DA on myself with LC shirt, HC helm, leather eye and aventail, LP gauntlets, and HP greaves and am extremely hindered...My lowest armor is the high 150's, other 2 lower ones are 160's and 70's, LP is mid expert, and HP and shield are well into savant...I cas't this spell when I have one or 2 critters on me, its fine...More than that I get beat to crap, can't retreat and have died twice...The additive affect of hinderance from this spell is a killer, making the spell as a whole junk in any situation you actually need better armor protection...
<<--Just a Squire
maybe its time to use a different setup.
Clyn
RELAYER99
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 06:54 PM CDT
>I cast DA on myself with LC shirt
That says it all. I know that's not your primary armor so of course you are going to get jacked around.
I wear a HP halfplate, LP armet helm, HC greaves and LC gloves. With DA and HOW up I can walk into celpeze and rock the house and dance with treks and not get beat up hardly at all.
Relayer
That says it all. I know that's not your primary armor so of course you are going to get jacked around.
I wear a HP halfplate, LP armet helm, HC greaves and LC gloves. With DA and HOW up I can walk into celpeze and rock the house and dance with treks and not get beat up hardly at all.
Relayer
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 08:19 PM CDT
<<I wear a HP halfplate, LP armet helm, HC greaves and LC gloves. With DA and HOW up I can walk into celpeze and rock the house and dance with treks and not get beat up hardly at all.
<<Relayer
as all my hommies would say. WORD.
Clyn
<<Relayer
as all my hommies would say. WORD.
Clyn
DARIONH
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 09:18 PM CDT
>As I stated Cly, once they chomp on a cookie they are immune to a halt...I can't halt a thief half my circle with 310+ in PM, when they have their cookies up...My point was what are these woundrous ways we have to protect or defend people? Its not halt...<
Lennon, Pureblade can halt me, he's only one circle higher than I am, at a 35-40 (I think) prep in halt while I have the "munchies" up and he doesn't have 310+ PM. Munchies do not make you immune to Halt by any means.
Toren
Lennon, Pureblade can halt me, he's only one circle higher than I am, at a 35-40 (I think) prep in halt while I have the "munchies" up and he doesn't have 310+ PM. Munchies do not make you immune to Halt by any means.
Toren
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 09:57 PM CDT
Insane amounts of disciplines concentration AND munchies can make a very very deadly defense, but not immune.
-Constatine
-Constatine
LYNEMN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 11:00 PM CDT
While as I don't feel DA sucks, I do feel it has room for improvement, which is probably being covered right now in Magic2.1.
Lennon, I think your main problem isn't in the DA spell but in your armor setup. What I mean is.... your highest armor is HP. However, your "main" piece... the one that covers your chest... is LC. With adept HP, I am greatly hindered by armor alone in a 3 piece HP setup.... not to mention how hindered I am with my 6 piece worker of all 5 armors...
Anyway, with around mid-100s LC, your chain shirt doesn't provide nearly as much protection as your HP, and it hinders a lot more with DA up... I beleive the main worker offer of hinderance is the skill in the armor worn on your chest, after all...
Anyway, I'm betting that if you wore a half plate and LC greaves rather than a chain shirt and HP greaves, your hinderance would be a LOT lower with DA up. AND... you'd be able to take a MUCH bigger beating....
I myself have taken 2 arrows from Velvers with DA up and a suit of forged field plate. They didn't even give me a bleeder... without DA, they might have very well killed me, cuz I kinda suck at fighting velvers.
Anyway, rather than arguing this point, I'd suggest you go out into the field and actually try this...
Calemnon, loving DA even though it kills his hinderance
Lennon, I think your main problem isn't in the DA spell but in your armor setup. What I mean is.... your highest armor is HP. However, your "main" piece... the one that covers your chest... is LC. With adept HP, I am greatly hindered by armor alone in a 3 piece HP setup.... not to mention how hindered I am with my 6 piece worker of all 5 armors...
Anyway, with around mid-100s LC, your chain shirt doesn't provide nearly as much protection as your HP, and it hinders a lot more with DA up... I beleive the main worker offer of hinderance is the skill in the armor worn on your chest, after all...
Anyway, I'm betting that if you wore a half plate and LC greaves rather than a chain shirt and HP greaves, your hinderance would be a LOT lower with DA up. AND... you'd be able to take a MUCH bigger beating....
I myself have taken 2 arrows from Velvers with DA up and a suit of forged field plate. They didn't even give me a bleeder... without DA, they might have very well killed me, cuz I kinda suck at fighting velvers.
Anyway, rather than arguing this point, I'd suggest you go out into the field and actually try this...
Calemnon, loving DA even though it kills his hinderance
LENNONJON
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/05/2002 11:09 PM CDT
<<Lennon, Pureblade can halt me, he's only one circle higher than I am, at a 35-40 (I think) prep in halt while I have the "munchies" up and he doesn't have 310+ PM. Munchies do not make you immune to Halt by any means.>>
And I have teted with a couple theives where the opposite was true...Guess we will just chalk that up to more inconsistancies...
--Just a Squire
And I have teted with a couple theives where the opposite was true...Guess we will just chalk that up to more inconsistancies...
--Just a Squire
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 12:27 AM CDT
>>And I have teted with a couple theives where the opposite was true...Guess we will just chalk that up to more inconsistancies...
Halt is something I realized is a very wonky spell.
Testing MO with halt on Rumet when MO first came out. I was able to halt him at 12 mana, then I couldn't halt him at 20, 25, and 30.
Halt is something I realized is a very wonky spell.
Testing MO with halt on Rumet when MO first came out. I was able to halt him at 12 mana, then I couldn't halt him at 20, 25, and 30.
CONSTATINE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 12:44 AM CDT
Halt is a very much concentration based spell. Some thieves train more disciplines then others, the ones you find immune are probably high discipline ones with their cookies, the ones that arnt didnt train as much discipline and probably are still very easily haltable even with the cookie.
And since its so concentration based, MO would help alot on your end.
-Constatine
And since its so concentration based, MO would help alot on your end.
-Constatine
BARBAROUS
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 12:48 AM CDT
>> Lennon, I think your main problem isn't in the DA spell but in your armor setup. What I mean is.... your highest armor is HP. However, your "main" piece... the one that covers your chest... is LC. With adept HP, I am greatly hindered by armor alone in a 3 piece HP setup.... not to mention how hindered I am with my 6 piece worker of all 5 armors...
Hasn't Damissak stated that all hinderance currently works off your main body armor ranks? Or did I just misunderstand him?
-Stohmp
Hasn't Damissak stated that all hinderance currently works off your main body armor ranks? Or did I just misunderstand him?
-Stohmp
FATRICK
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 01:07 AM CDT
>>Hasn't Damissak stated that all hinderance currently works off your main body armor ranks? Or did I just misunderstand him?
i armor
>You are wearing some half plate, some scale greaves, a chain aventail, some mail gloves, a scale aventail, a leather reinforced aventail, and an emblazoned tower shield adorned with the silhouette of a dragon.
app plate
If you were only maneuvering in some half plate you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered.
i armor
>You are wearing some scale greaves, a chain aventail, some mail gloves, a scale aventail, a leather reinforced aventail, and an emblazoned tower shield adorned with the silhouette of a dragon. (no half plate)
app greaves
If you were only maneuvering in some scale greaves you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently unhindered.
Yep...
i armor
>You are wearing some half plate, some scale greaves, a chain aventail, some mail gloves, a scale aventail, a leather reinforced aventail, and an emblazoned tower shield adorned with the silhouette of a dragon.
app plate
If you were only maneuvering in some half plate you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently highly hindered.
i armor
>You are wearing some scale greaves, a chain aventail, some mail gloves, a scale aventail, a leather reinforced aventail, and an emblazoned tower shield adorned with the silhouette of a dragon. (no half plate)
app greaves
If you were only maneuvering in some scale greaves you would be unhindered.
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently unhindered.
Yep...
LYNEMN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 01:25 AM CDT
That's kinda what I was thinking about when I said he'd have less hinderance if he had HP on his chest...
MOONC
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 02:03 AM CDT
Da sucks. If we are suppposed to be masters of defence ...why do we have to have a negative side to EVERYTHING that goes beyond the positive side of everything we do??
Why cant we just get an ability like "dance" or some cookies that have no downside???
Almost EVERYTHING we do has a downside to it ....and 90% of our abilites are to help everyone and require a group.
I'm sick of hearing about this crap....."you can do this"..."you can do that" ...what you are missing is that it cost us one way or another. If its "OUR" ability it shouldnt cost us anything.
Gad
Why cant we just get an ability like "dance" or some cookies that have no downside???
Almost EVERYTHING we do has a downside to it ....and 90% of our abilites are to help everyone and require a group.
I'm sick of hearing about this crap....."you can do this"..."you can do that" ...what you are missing is that it cost us one way or another. If its "OUR" ability it shouldnt cost us anything.
Gad
BARBAROUS
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 02:54 AM CDT
>>That's kinda what I was thinking about when I said he'd have less hinderance if he had HP on his chest...
I thought that's what you were talking about, but I was just making sure.
-Stohmp-
I thought that's what you were talking about, but I was just making sure.
-Stohmp-
LYNEMN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 03:14 AM CDT
DA would be better if it didn't affect hinderance, yes... HOW would be better if it didn't train spirit... SR would be better if it didn't penalize offense... TR would be better if it didn't cause you to bleed more...
I didn't say these spells didn't have room for improvement.. heck, they could be a lot better. What I'm saying is the don't "suck". They have uses...
Anyway, just to get back on topic...
Catch those darn thieves! Heh...
I didn't say these spells didn't have room for improvement.. heck, they could be a lot better. What I'm saying is the don't "suck". They have uses...
Anyway, just to get back on topic...
Catch those darn thieves! Heh...
GONIFTHEEF
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 03:24 AM CDT
Thieves that train PM as well as have high discipline helps as well.
Tho paladins my circle with Marshal order on and using a ton of cambrinth can overcome my "munchies" and still halt.
<schvartz --40 discipline, and well, not as much PM -- but more overall magic--as purloin, but I'm getting there>
Tho paladins my circle with Marshal order on and using a ton of cambrinth can overcome my "munchies" and still halt.
<schvartz --40 discipline, and well, not as much PM -- but more overall magic--as purloin, but I'm getting there>
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 07:42 AM CDT
<<Hasn't Damissak stated that all hinderance currently works off your main body armor ranks? Or did I just misunderstand him?
in lennon's case the hinderance isnt the problem. Rather its the protection and the EXTRA protection he doesnt get from his lower ranks in LC than HP. His LC ranks are good but his HP are so much better affording him much more protection.
Clyn
in lennon's case the hinderance isnt the problem. Rather its the protection and the EXTRA protection he doesnt get from his lower ranks in LC than HP. His LC ranks are good but his HP are so much better affording him much more protection.
Clyn
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 07:43 AM CDT
<<If you were only maneuvering in some scale greaves you would be unhindered. But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently unhindered.
Fatrick,
I would bug that.
Clyn
Fatrick,
I would bug that.
Clyn
CLYNLYN
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 07:51 AM CDT
<<Da sucks. If we are suppposed to be masters of defence ...why do we have to have a negative side to EVERYTHING that goes beyond the positive side of everything we do??
It doesnt "suck". I actually like the hinderance. It helps me lock lower armors in higher places.
<<Why cant we just get an ability like "dance" or some cookies that have no downside???
Paladin retain a balance. Everything has a price so it seems. Its been part of the guild. Maybe new things wont have a price. But no point in complaining. Rather lets get some constructive ideas on how to change it or ideas on new things without a negative aspect. Instead of it sucks. I'd hate to say it. But maybe alot of players that are having problems with specific spells may have less skill that necessary to use it to its fullest potential. So far none of the spells we have can i see as a real negative impact on us. Some just dont work as planned.
<<Almost EVERYTHING we do has a downside to it ....and 90% of our abilites are to help everyone and require a group.
Were leaders. At least thats part of our guild's modus operandi. Why shouldnt alot of things previous be used for the group thought. Now that Roderigo is our sole developer, maybe he'll develop something that is a solo thing, maybe not. But different Gurus mean different approaches and different GM goals.
<<I'm sick of hearing about this crap....."you can do this"..."you can do that" ...what you are missing is that it cost us one way or another. If its "OUR" ability it shouldnt cost us anything.
Well i would love to use all of our abilities and not have a cost. Or at least a cost that isnt detrimental to anything else. Dances, Shadow Abilities etc. They are the way the other guilds were developed. We recently lost a guild guru, had a change of faces to our Liason, and in the midst of big changes. If now isnt the time to putting good constructive suggestions to what we want. I dont know what is. Put the suggestions out. Not everthing is gonna be ok, but at least the GM's will have something to work with. And maybe mold your idea into something that is workable or allowable.
Clyn
It doesnt "suck". I actually like the hinderance. It helps me lock lower armors in higher places.
<<Why cant we just get an ability like "dance" or some cookies that have no downside???
Paladin retain a balance. Everything has a price so it seems. Its been part of the guild. Maybe new things wont have a price. But no point in complaining. Rather lets get some constructive ideas on how to change it or ideas on new things without a negative aspect. Instead of it sucks. I'd hate to say it. But maybe alot of players that are having problems with specific spells may have less skill that necessary to use it to its fullest potential. So far none of the spells we have can i see as a real negative impact on us. Some just dont work as planned.
<<Almost EVERYTHING we do has a downside to it ....and 90% of our abilites are to help everyone and require a group.
Were leaders. At least thats part of our guild's modus operandi. Why shouldnt alot of things previous be used for the group thought. Now that Roderigo is our sole developer, maybe he'll develop something that is a solo thing, maybe not. But different Gurus mean different approaches and different GM goals.
<<I'm sick of hearing about this crap....."you can do this"..."you can do that" ...what you are missing is that it cost us one way or another. If its "OUR" ability it shouldnt cost us anything.
Well i would love to use all of our abilities and not have a cost. Or at least a cost that isnt detrimental to anything else. Dances, Shadow Abilities etc. They are the way the other guilds were developed. We recently lost a guild guru, had a change of faces to our Liason, and in the midst of big changes. If now isnt the time to putting good constructive suggestions to what we want. I dont know what is. Put the suggestions out. Not everthing is gonna be ok, but at least the GM's will have something to work with. And maybe mold your idea into something that is workable or allowable.
Clyn
DR-MAECE
Re: Taken from Magic Talk & Spell Ideas
05/06/2002 03:21 PM CDT
Hi folks!
Let's move the magic topic to the magic folder please. Remember that this is for comments on thieves...
~M
Let's move the magic topic to the magic folder please. Remember that this is for comments on thieves...
~M
