Is it just me or anyone else find the fact that Paladins are the 'Guards' and at the same time the popular target for thieves funny?
I kinda thought we Paladins were supposed to have good eyes for those things and as it stands now there are only a couple things you can do.

- Get stolen with HoJ up, crush their hand and loose the coins.
- Get stolen with HoJ up, not find the thief, loose your coins.
- Get stolen without HoJ up, grabbing their hand, rush to accuse and ask for your coins back.
- Get stolen without HoJ up, not grabbing their hand, and loosing your coins.
- Grabbing their hand without getting stole

Honestly I don't like any of that, and I didnt include the variations where you attack or not attack.
Depositing coins is a good thing against thieves but if that's all we can do about them then maybe we should consider getting new titles instead of Guard, Deputy , Marshal and all that cause honestly they're sort of ironic as it stands right now.

Paladin Phanton

Don't be silly. Nobody said Paladins would be un-stealable. All I said was that it's a contradiction having a Guard title and beeing the main target for stealing, since the stealing skill is forbiden to us and it plays a big role on stealing checks. If it would only take perception maybe we wouldnt be a very popular target since we have our ways to boost that. Even beein a tert skill is surely trainnable and Paladins do train it.
Now the concept of having a thief unhindered in HP is also silly.
Wanting a Paladin (which are considered defenders, guards and such in game meaning) to have some sort of bonus against thieves is fairly reasonable when you try to put a thief in a bunch of noise making pieces of metal and wanting him/her/it to be unhindered. Wake up.

Paladin Phanton

<<Or do I take this Paladins wanting more stealing protection to mean that us Thieves will soon be appropriating the ability to go unhindered in Heavy Plate in return? hums>>

Brilliant suggestion. However, the two abilities are not really on the same level. All guilds, sans Paladins, have the ability to train stealing in order to detour theft, this is not a guild ability. The lower hinderance on all armors is a guild ability for Paladins. It was not decided that "hey since Paladins can train their hinderance lower they should be more vulnerable to theft", or "because Paladins are more vulnerable to theft they should be able to train their hinderance lower".

As far as beign stolen from goes. I was stolen from the other day in Adanf, by some little punk who I can see hiding, and moving around "stealthily" (190 in perception). Yet even though they are this easy to find, oddly they still can steal from me (with clarity up). So please Adon, don't be telling me how easy it is to not be stolen from. When someone probably less than half my circle (and I am sure no where near in stealing ranks as I have in perception) has that ability, I begin to think perhaps theres a bit of a problem.

--Just a Squire

>Phanton's post<

I was being sarcastic. "Wake up." chortle Besides, Paladins aren't the primary targets for thieves. They're not super rich, and they have the ability to sense when they're being stolen from. It's not like stealing skill would help you stop me steal from you anyway. You'd just see me like you do with Clarity/whatever.

>Lennon's post<

Hmm. Maybe then, Thieves should get the special bonuses in Stealing as a guild ability, and Paladins could have big bonuses in catching the non guilded? That would sound pretty fair to me, as it's not just guilded people stealing.

And if it makes you feel any better, with low expert perception and nearing expert stealing people my circle can still steal from me too, Lennon. The stealing skill is really broken.

Toren Sunreign-Jade-Stone, S'kra Gopher who doesn't actually want to be unhindered in HP

So, what...someone half your circle cant be better than you at something?

A moonie half your circle cant be better than you at magic, because they're half your circle?

Thieves are survival primary, and stealing is included in that. They specialize in things like stealing. I dont understand, what makes you think that just because you can move around better in HP and have more teaching, that you shouldnt be able to be stolen from by someone who practices endlessly at stealing from people?

You may be a guard, but if you dont know how people steal, you're STILL not going to protect yourself very well against it.

The thing is, guards can do more than just catch people stealing...think about defending the city in invasions, against crazy people on killing sprees, etc...stealing isnt the only crime, you know...

<<A moonie half your circle cant be better than you at magic, because they're half your circle?>>

Actually no...Most mages 10 circles less than me don't have my magic...

<<Thieves are survival primary, and stealing is included in that. They specialize in things like stealing. I dont understand, what makes you think that just because you can move around better in HP and have more teaching, that you shouldnt be able to be stolen from by someone who practices endlessly at stealing from people?>>

Try to read and formulate logical coherant thoughts before you spew forth nonsense. I never stated "Hey because I am unhindered in armor and have more teaching than the thief I should be able to protect myself from stealing." What I did state is that I saw the punk hide and sneak around "stealthily", got the name when marked and stalked, so I don't think they had much skill in anything to be honest...Yet in spite of all this, he was still able to steal from me...

<<You may be a guard, but if you dont know how people steal, you're STILL not going to protect yourself very well against it.>>

I'm not a guard, my character is a Paladin. I have suggested over and over we should be able to listen to people teach stealing, because it would be useful in understanding techniques. Akin to RL where police know what tactics criminals use and don't cover their ears when stealing is being discussed...Yet supposedly in Elanthia Paladins have all these ways to protect themselves, oddly however, these ways don't seem to work...Even with HOJ up the thief gets the coins or gems when you crush their hand...

<<The thing is, guards can do more than just catch people stealing...think about defending the city in invasions, against crazy people on killing sprees, etc...stealing isnt the only crime, you know...>>

Nope, but I can defend myself against murderers, oddly I can't protect myself from theft...

Wonderful post though, I enjoyed it immensely...

--Just a Squire

>If a bonus means we're the only guild that can operate at below base ranks even with all our skills while in our element, yes, we have a bonus.

You have to be caught so many times to be below base ranks that if you're that stupid you probly deserve it.

>If a bonus means we can do something with the skill that other people can't, then no, we don't have a bonus.

My 10th level Thief in TF with 55 stealing and 15 agility can shoplift items easily that I can't even grab as a Trader with 110 stealing and 40 agility. I'd call that a bonus.

Apu

No, you may not have said that, but by saying something to the effect of 'half my circle' you implied it. I'm not extremely familiar with paladin requirements, but I seem to recall lore and armor being the two biggies.

Now, just because you can sense them marking you and stalking you...heck, you even know who they are and WHERE they are doesnt mean you HAVE to see them stealing.

In a city, there is (in theory) a ton of other people around (i.e. a throng of people [in descriptions]) and by being aware of one person hiding, you may lose track of that person in the multitude of other people.

When you see a person hiding, you lose the ability to point without searching after awhile. That implies that you (or anyone else for that matter) are unable to keep track of every single person in a room.

Therefore, you may be able to sense the person marking you, stalking you, but you still may not know where they are. If you get their name, you can search and point. If you see them stalking, you can point.

I'm rambling...the point is, you may be able to sense things, but it doesnt mean that you see them doing it. You may be able to sense a thief stealing from you, but they may be too quick for you to catch. Sensing CAN be after the fact...

As for HoJ, what makes you think that stealing isnt a two-handed job, where one hand grabs the coins and the second slips them away? You could crush the empty hand on the way out, but they'd still keep the coins...

As for listening to stealing, I'm inclined to agree with you. I see no reason Paladins shouldnt be able to LISTEN to stealing other than possible problems with atonement and coding.

BTW...defending yourself physically against an attacker is very much different from defending yourself from someone sneaking into your pockets...

One more thing...even with tons of perception, you only have two eyes that face forward... :)

So...if there were things ready to pop out from the shadows and try to kill YOU, would YOU be more worried about the things trying to kill you or the sneaky guy walking around?

By the way, its called Whistling WOODS...that means, there are trees, bushes, all sorts of things to hide behind...and move around in...just because they hide somewhere doesnt mean they have to STAY there...and you'll say "But I have enough perception to see them move around" ... yes, you might, but you might also lose track of them while watching out for the things trying to kill you

<<As for HoJ, what makes you think that stealing isnt a two-handed job, where one hand grabs the coins and the second slips them away? You could crush the empty hand on the way out, but they'd still keep the coins...>>

I base my conclusion on this point on some tests I did with a thief friend of mine. When a thief steals the first gem off me they steal it with the same hand which I crush. So there they are with their mangled hand, holding onto a gem, while thier other hand is empty and unharmed. I am guessing the same would go for coins, even though you can't see the coins in hand...

What HOJ should do is when the hand is crushed the gem or coins drop to the ground or back into the pouch/coin purse.

As far as the rest goes, I won't even bother anymore. Evidence and common sense is stacked against your position.

Happy pocket hunting...

--Just a Squire
--Just a Squire

<<And Lennon, I'll see if i can find a way to twist the truth after i poke around with my pally friend >>

Heh you must be a statistician =P

--Just a Squire

>>You shouldn't have to know how to steal on order to know how to catch someone stealing.

You don't have to know how to steal to catch someone... you need to be perceptive. In order to stop someone from stealing you have to know their tactics.

<<But no matter how perceptive you are, you're still at a disadvantage, if only because the thief will always have a few tricks up their sleeves that you dont know about >>

What if I decide to carry my coins inside my socks ?
:P

Paladin Phanton

>>Or, can have it up, and be stolen from thru it anyway. At least by pros, who can see your hand twitch. And moon magi can sense it on you as well, if they can perceive you.

That's so wrong its silly.

You can't say "And Gonif still steals from everyone" or "And Soim still steals from everyone" and say "The pros will get you yet HAHAHA!" without realizing that the only reason they can is because they have higher skill.

Of course you'll get stolen through it, of course then you end up comparing those pros to a paladin with 300 perception, 50 charisma, GoL up, clarity, HoJ, high reflexes...

>By the way, its called Whistling WOODS...that means, there are trees, bushes, all sorts of things to hide behind...and move around in...just because they hide somewhere doesnt mean they have to STAY there...and you'll say "But I have enough perception to see them move around" ... yes, you might, but you might also lose track of them while watching out for the things trying to kill you

You say that as if it would make a difference if he was standing in the middle of a baren desert.

Litharius

>>Nope, there are trillions of grains of sand one can hide behind there...

Don't forget dressing up like a cactus.