Is there any chance that we can tweak dissect to work with construct-type mobs?

Animation is the Necromancer's profane jam. Dissecting a creature along magically fabricated lines should be a matter of familiarity and skill. I think we're seeing Necromancers shift thematically toward arcane artifice and synthetic applications and less like the original plaguebearing Bonegrinder (poison/disease doesn't seem entirely feasible in modern Dragonrealms). We could look at a rank threshold to accomplish this but I'm less fond of restricting narrative themes that happen to be packaged into mechanical abilities. It'd open up more options for newbie/alt Necromancers while helping with crowding in some of the hunting areas which force us into awkward training patterns (skinning but no thanatology. Thanatology with no skinning).

I'd be willing to settle for a spell requirement (Quicken the Earth).

It wouldn't hurt to have an arrange-esque mechanic for dissect - multiple dissection commands that begin with an identity/analysis syntax which simply marks and prepares the corpse for actual post-murder examination. Identify wouldn't be a full dissection and should allow the skinning of the mob. Less thanatology training but rather doles out scholarship, first aid, and arcana (if a construct or spellcasting creature). Being able to target what and where we would like to dissect would be interesting but I suspect that would be dev intensive to write entirely new messaging. Receiving more thanatology experience for more precise anatomical study would be a nice benefit while adding more to Necroflava. I'm a big fan of bundling experience across multiple skills to reflect complex, studious actions that require a multitude of skillsets.


While we're on the subject of dissect:

Some of the redeemed messaging for dissecting feels off. I would have expected unique messaging for extraplanar entities (wind hounds, etc) that are less associated with the divine but the messaging reflects a divine relationship. Not to mention the awkwardness of dissecting a faenrae reaver and receiving the cursed/undead messaging that expresses an antithesis to the Immortals. Unless Idon isn't a real Immortal ;)

Thanatology is certainly the study of death in a conventional sense. Death in Elanthia isn't exactly death here on Earth - not with each guild perceiving the world through a particularly philosophical/mana attunement lens. Thanatology could also touch on magical and natural entropy of constructs, while not organically alive by our standards, possess magical processes similar to living creatures developed through whatever rituals and arcane technology. Using thanatology as a basis to work on I imagine a necromancer would be more than capable of theoretical applications to study the entropy of mana and the deconstruction of those particular workings that create an animated being.

It's like the tuners we can implant. The device reads as life and transcendental workings which result in a synesthetic experience of mana players are not biologically attuned to.

This would be more of an expansion of academic principles that begin with thanatology but include arcana, intimate knowledge of rituals, and the creation of similar constructs. It's a real opportunity to move Necromancers forward in an academic and narrative sense. The result of the sheer density of research being conducted by the organized community devoted to the Great Work. We should explore not only the research end of dissection but also what we're learning through its application via a growing understanding of system processes and not just the results of higher ranks (zombie power, etc).

That or we could grant more experience from utilizing Vivisection and package thanatology into it.

Of course, I'm approaching this as a Redeemed where skinning isn't always viable depending on the creature type.

>>Can you clarify what you mean by this? Dissect is still available to you as a Redeemed Necromancer.

Let's say I'm hunting Orc Raiders. They're not able to be skinned which means I'm unable to arrange them. If I were your average Philosopher I could alternate between dissection and harvesting. Harvesting would provide skinning and thanatology.

I'm fine with Redeemed being hard mode and honestly this is less about the Redeemed state and more about the furthering of our guild skills into practical usages mechanically to explore the guild's growth and capabilities.

>>The Necromancer is learning more of the Great Work. It sounds a little circular, perhaps in the same way that a Moon Mage studying the skies learns more of Astrology. If you have suggestions for what is learned in a rank based manner, feel free to post suggestions!

You're not wrong but the only real application of our thanatology exists in our mud men, zombies, Risen, and Vivesection. Our creations are empowered by that understanding but for our morally questionable group scholastic murderers, we're exploring corpses more than the system processes and their relationships to the world through supernatural frames of reference. We've seen GMPCs make themselves new bodies with their perverse knowledge of thanatology. And yet, for a guild focused on re-shaping themselves we're doing very little exploration on various states of existence. Constructs being one of them. Moon Mages utilize Astrology in impressive and compelling ways that give them a real sense of identity.

Even if constructs are out the window, I think it well suited that we should see scholarship, engineering (carving up a body is a type of engineering), alchemy or artifice (it could take the highest applicable crafting skill and reward experience to it) being packaged with dissection/harvest/etc.

Mechanically, as a guild, we don't have very much going on that isn't already in some way a continuation of mechanics we already possess or are unique to the game. Undead, constructs and Risen (basically undead familiars) are all well and good (monster making is great fun) but there's little..substance? No game lore easter eggs, no messaging of a necromantic nature regarding what we're actually doing and its effects upon the Immortal's plan. I think this is something that has been missing for a long time. There is so much world building that has been provided to us on the nature of Elanthia and magic but there's very little exploring of that through mechanics which appear to be designed to do just that.

>Let's say I'm hunting Orc Raiders. They're not able to be skinned which means I'm unable to arrange them. If I were your average Philosopher I could alternate between dissection and harvesting. Harvesting would provide skinning and thanatology. I'm fine with Redeemed being hard mode and honestly this is less about the Redeemed state and more about the furthering of our guild skills into practical usages mechanically to explore the guild's growth and capabilities.

Ah, I understand what you mean. Yes, Redeemed Necromancers lose some tools (PERFORM HARVEST, in this case), and gain others. That is intentional, and we are not currently considering revising DISSECT to also train Skinning to accomodate.

If you have suggestions for additional benchmarks to add to Thanatology please post them. Note that a few guilds have this paradigm, such as Barbarians and their Expertise unlocks and Empaths and their healing ability unlocks.

>You're not wrong but the only real application of our thanatology exists in our mud men, zombies, Risen, and Vivesection. Our creations are empowered by that understanding but for our morally questionable group scholastic murderers, we're exploring corpses more than the system processes and their relationships to the world through supernatural frames of reference. We've seen GMPCs make themselves new bodies with their perverse knowledge of thanatology. And yet, for a guild focused on re-shaping themselves we're doing very little exploration on various states of existence. Constructs being one of them. Moon Mages utilize Astrology in impressive and compelling ways that give them a real sense of identity.

You seem to be blurring the line between mechanical and lore notions here. Thanatology is a skill used to indicate the Necromancers experience in their pursuits. That it is tied to some mechanical enterprises as well, like what you note in the above does not mean the sole purpose of training the Thanatology skill is to confer in game mechanical benefits.

That GMPCs are capable of doing things PCs are not is also not a function of how many ranks of Thanatology PCs have.

I would posit that the lore reasoning behind what is happening for every step of the Necromancers experiences are "the exploration" of what these states of existence are about, along with the growing number indicating a Necromancers skill in Thanatology. Similarly, beyond the mechanical benchmarks that Moon Mages may unlock with Astrology ranks (and again, if you have suggestions for things to add, please post them!), there is perhaps a distinction to be drawn between a Moon Mages capacity to interpret visions, and their ranks in Astrology.

The Redemption release is a lore and mechanical exploration of one of the States of Being. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, we are not currently near releasing the other States of Being, but I personally hope to treat them both somewhat similarly - as lore and mechanical explorations (with maybe a little puzzle solving and a few walls of text to get there).

>Even if constructs are out the window, I think it well suited that we should see scholarship, engineering (carving up a body is a type of engineering), alchemy or artifice (it could take the highest applicable crafting skill and reward experience to it) being packaged with dissection/harvest/etc.

I do not believe there are currently plans to bundle multiple skills into fewer actions like this. Though if you have suggestions for how to incorporate some skills into guild abilities, please post them.

>... but there's little..substance? No game lore easter eggs, no messaging of a necromantic nature regarding what we're actually doing and its effects upon the Immortal's plan. I think this is something that has been missing for a long time. There is so much world building that has been provided to us on the nature of Elanthia and magic but there's very little exploring of that through mechanics which appear to be designed to do just that.

As someone who was able to write a significant number of game lore Easter eggs/outright lore bombs into a number of things since being onboarded, I strongly urge you to poke and prod. There seems to be a general decline in asking questions on the forums, but we GMs do read them.

>"...In contrast, the seordmaor originate from a known planar conduit, and the wind hounds are plainly a garden variety of air elemental. ..."

Ah, thanks for the clarification, I was wrong! Currently their mechanical classification is in part because of limitations in the system. They'd be a good target for updating.