>>What about Butchery? It does not currently generate Divine Outrage (intentional or not) and can be an excellent Thanatology trainer. Yes, using the parts would be bad, but I can see merit as sort of an “advanced dissection” method. Should Butchery be generating DO?

Anything Risen-related will generate some DO, even if it didn't before.

>>Based on my reading of the chart there’s no Life mixed in.

Correct. Holy+Lunar and Holy+Elemental are both possible within Anabasis, though it doesn't matter mechanically.

>>Anabasis aside, does the sorcerous backlash risk when casting Holy spells remain in the “Most Dangerous” bucket for Redeemed?

No. For unsullied and Redeemed, Holy magic difficulty and danger are the same as other non-Arcane magic.

GM Grejuva

>>Wow. That's going to open up all sorts of possibilities for the Redeemed.

One of the major philosophical changes that got made over the years was redefining the Redeemed from being a failed state that existed primarily as an antithesis to the Philosophers and instead as a legitimately supported method of play. In significant ways this has followed the trajectory set by Empath development; Redemption was always somewhat tied to permashocked Empaths as an example, and since the inception of the guild we've had major changes in our policy toward both.

I think when I referred to Redeemed as the "half-holy" I got it as distilled down as I could. Redeemed give up a lot of what makes Necromancers necromantic, but do get a set of returned abilities and the new Anabasis spells that should hopefully make them an engaging choice for those who want to do it.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>> Clear as mud? :)

I get the distinction between Ideology and Attitude, but what's unclear to me is how (mechanically) the former is determined.

The fuzzy part is Perverse.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Post:Terminology_Question:_The_Perverse_-_05/22/2019_-_16:20

There are two different types of Perverse: those who do not identify with the Philosophy and those explicitly in Jeihrem's camp.

Are we going to be able to "set" our Ideology?
Does the system do this for us? And, if so, how does it assign it?

- I

>> If you chose Perverse with Enforcer Zenriel, you're Perverse.

So, moving forward, you can't meet Jeihrem until after you declare your loyalty to him?

Isn't part of his shtick about tempting Book's students away from him? And, if so, doesn't that kind of fall apart?


>> Right now only the latter has mechanical support. While there are a number of other Perverse cults -- Bone Elves, (pre-Ael'tharaxus) Dragon Priests, Maelshyveans, whoever was behind the Rasman Plague, etc. -- those aren't player-joinable.

Totally get that.

From an RP perspective, Inneth does not consider himself a Philosopher. I'm not trying to play at being a Bone Elf or anything along those lines -- he's just kind of floating around aimlessly as sort of an independent. (Thanks, Osven!)

- His "Attitude" is deliberately set at the "friend to all necromancers" level.
- He's only "Perverse" in the not-a-Philosopher sense.
- Jeihrem and the Profane is a bridge too far, but Inneth isn't ready to line up with Book.

I do hope that at some point there's a better mechanical distinction between not-Philosopher and Jeihrem Minion.

Come Tuesday I'll be denied access to P4. That'll make things interesting.

- I

All the gods provisionally accept the Redeemed's return to grace, since the entire thrust of the ability change is giving up using the actual necromancy that they as a collective find offensive. In the eyes of the divine, the Redeemed has atoned for his crimes and ceased doing them. Until they fall again, anyway. Individual worshippers can form their own opinions, and are rarely if ever 1:1 in time with their deities, but there's no divinity that is meant to act as though they "aren't redeemed enough" as long as they remain in that state.

A further point is that the Redeemed is a state of being, a phrase we've used a lot over the years. Necromantic states of beings are watershed changes to the Necromancer's body and/or soul that radically defines them. For the Redeemed, they are the half-holy; not only are they forgiven, they have access to Anabasis spells that markedly demonstrate the divine's grace.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

@Armifer - I guess I can see how mechanically it’s probably easier to implement as an overall thing even though I respectfully disagree that it fits with established lore especially as applies to the Triquetra and other pantheons which makes this feel like a disservice to those who follow those specific pantheons in order to push this event and release forward but so it goes.

@Tev - I respectfully disagree with your assessment and would be overjoyed to watch you be smited by Tenemlor for that suggestion.

To avoid PAFO - having your profession publicly displayed will still generate SO. We are discussing pre-titles. If you have any recommendations, feel free to share!

>To avoid PAFO

Blasphemy.

GM Grejuva

Suggested pre-title: Prodigal

Because it suggests that one has returned.

Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy

A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy

>Some testing indicates that if the Redeemed necromancer casts this on a PC and doesn't pick a new target later it also sticks. Indefinitely.
>The next day:
>The blood curse flares up, causing your injuries to burn with agony!

Solution: don't piss off redeemed necromancers.

But seriously that's a hilarious bug.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh

>> Some testing indicates that if the Redeemed necromancer casts this on a PC and doesn't pick a new target later it also sticks. Indefinitely.

Yep, confirmed. The EBOTS-augmented HP had a 7968 roisaen duration left when the caster finally cast it on something else. This was the next day.

Target then got:
"The curse that was laid upon you fades away, the fire within your blood cooling at last."

- I

>The Redeemed and the aforementioned Necromancer guildhall changes are now live in TF.

Any chance test could be synced too? I know there are some people really interested in testing.

---

TG, TG, GL, et al.

"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh

You mention 6 months as forsaken...

I would like to request again that redeemed (and/or especially Transcendence whenever it is released) are progression paths that can be achieved by those that never become forsaken in the first place.. Pretty please? :)

Oh you rock! I totally missed that!

Thank you!

>Yep. Unsullied can go Redeemed, though some of the messaging is a little weird depending on the specifics of your circumstances. Hopefully this little quote won't be too much of a spoiler/secret, but for example when it says something to the effect of... you recall the dead patterns needed to return you to life. But... I never knew the dead patterns in the first place?

Good catch. We added the Unsullied exemption after the quest was written - given the nature of the quest arc and what is going on at that part of it, we will have to figure out a workaround. Hurm. :\

Personally, I would think of this a bit like being aware a bank has a vault. Knowing that the vault exists, and that the vault is secure, does not in and of itself confer a direct advantage in entering said vault. A lot of guilds have vaults, which should come as no surprise to anyone who reads between the lines. However, the locking mechanisms behind said vaults are tightly guarded.

On the topic of causing sociopolitical issues for guild leaders, it is definitely worth considering about how each guild leader may respond to this development, and what it potentially means for their claims and aims. Some of this can be inferred from which guilds allow access to the Redeemed.

>>I dig the analogy, but maybe for different reasons? Society has a vested interest in banks having vaults and those vaults being secure, for obvious monetary reasons. The societies of Kermoria do not care for Necromancer Guilds. So regardless of how well protected they are, it might be a very serious problem if people start spilling where the vault "is".

Maybe there should be some sort of cooperatively charged magical device that would prevent everyone who doesn't have a ritual knife from entering, with havoc breaking loose if the Necromancer players don't keep it topped up at all times. And maybe Moon Mages can shift moonbeams to its location?

Oh wait, that's the Temple defenses, carry on.

On a more serious note I am ready for the team good zerg rush on the Necromancer guildhalls. Time to pay 10,000 sleazy louts and sewer thugs to do their duty, for Gods and Principality!

-- Qihhth

>Good catch. We added the Unsullied exemption after the quest was written - given the nature of the quest arc and what is going on at that part of it, we will have to figure out a workaround. Hurm. :\

Yeah, some of that other messaging was brutal. So at the moment, what would happen if an Unsullied Redeemed got some divine outrage and became not-Redeemed. Would it go back to being Unsullied, or would it be insta-Forsaken?