I don't know anything about necromancers, never played one, never focused on the details of how they operate.

So this question might appear a bit vague and in general terms but thats due to the above.

When necromancers were introduced, my general recollection is that we were told they are hardcore, they have skills and abilities that are very strong compared to other guilds. In exchange for this, they will have negatives, among which are that they will not be socially accepted by other Guilds. I remember the word 'loner' associated with them.

So it seems the 'social isolation' component here is gone or has the potential to be gone. So what about the extra strong skills and abilities they were given? No I can't list what these are but I assume anyone familliar with necros can.

Thank you.

- Felicini

Yeah...we'll see. I think the lesson we're seeing play out is that mechanics can't make players RP a certain away even if they've expressly signed up for it. Even now we're seeing the vast bulk of responses here wanting necromancer play to be even easier and more insulated from repercussions. I think we will absolutely see a lot more socially accepted presence from necromancers--which is okay and good for players that choose a certain faction or approach in the guild--consistent with this event. The disappointing part to me is that there's apparently so many players of Perverse necromancers that do not or will not grasp the concept of how a Perverse path should play out in a multi-player game with a rich lore and history explaining very clearly why that path is going to be deadly dangerous.

I understand wanting to take that interaction out of player hands and put it in the hands of mechanics, but my experience has been that those mechanics inevitably end up eroding into essentially nothing (see history of the thieves' guild). That's how it goes. There will still be room for some necros to play as bad guys (at least if orb mechanics etc don't get totally dropped) just like there's still some decent thieves out there.

In any case, my last word on it and I'll go away: Armifer, if you want to bring evil factionalism options to other guilds, like MMs or thieves, with a hard requirement that you're open once you walk that path, I'm all for it and will look forward to playing that avenue. In the meantime, my non-Perverse necro will remain Open.

PS-I wish we'd bury the strawman "if you go Open you get camped forever randomly!!1" somewhere for good since that seems to be a driving terror for many posters. It's not true (I've made and played 3 under 50 Open characters the past 5 months, including a necro). But that's another thread for another day. I get the sense policy all-round is under review and I'm not betting heavy on the lifespan of Open as a thing.

Hope not ever to see Heaven. I have come to lead you to the
other shore; into eternal darkness; into fire and into ice. —Inferno

Seems to me the "hard mode" component of the guild still exists, perhaps even moreso now given the automated system. I just entered town accidentally wearing a transcendental buff (has happened many times before) and was almost immediately accused by an NPC and jailed. After I got my stuff, I was arrested again and exiled for trying to withdraw money. Not once in 134 circles have I ever been exiled from a town.

And the policy doesn't require a PC to approve of Necromancers or anyone else, you just can't kill a non-open one on site...but you ALREADY couldn't, right? That combined with perverse being locked open now, it seems like things have actually gotten HARDER mechanics-wise, unless I am misunderstanding something.

I feel this is shifting away from what we have become accustomed to how the majority of us play against a necromancer or with one. I understood Armifer your statement about the “social experiment” and Necro’s being a part of the “older” DR as we know it.

But we have played that way for a very very long time, many years. For some of us it is our character or has shaped our character significantly and for this type of LORE to be introduced is extremely jarring. The policy and mechanic issues will also affect us in extremely dramatic ways. A Lot of this has been discussed and pointed out in posts by before me and i won't waste your time by going over them and repeating. eg. PvP issues, open issues, mistakes and hindsight opinion with the thief guild, Necro's already having a set of skills to be self sufficient (self heal, raise, inviso survival prime) alternatives to retcon.

While you also stated none of this affects previous LORE or whats happened in history, It is an over night change that absolutely affects our own personal LORE that we have created for ourselves within our own RP.


While im sure this wasn't a napkin idea put into place, I am merely pointing out some constructive criticism from a player point of view.


Rifkinn

Thank you for responding and listening.

>How your character responded to lore in the past can still influence how they respond to lore in the present, including considering it something your character wrestles with or disagrees with.

That's exactly how I will address it (and to be honest its an aspect of RP that I do like, even if it bought about by an unsettling action that I would have rather not had to do.)


>That said, discussing the crossroads of PvP Policy and Lore Issues is a very complex junction of very charged matters!

And now I have to be honest and say that part of my discomfort and fear with all of this is that PvP is being taken away (even if in a subtle way) or trying to be pushed into a back corner.

I just do not want this to happen. Good PvP that happens very regularly and is extremely enjoyable appears rare in game because for the general majority they don't see it or hear about it. Because that majority are off doing their own thing. Disruptive and unconsented PvP is dramatized and in my view blown out of proportion on the boards on discord etc.... And in my opinion is a lesser issue than it actually is.



Rifkinn

A Necro will drop a naughty spell when fighting in town, and the hounds will rush in and steal peoples thunder.

>1) Less emphasis on unconsented PvP as a driving force behind the game. We do not want to remove PvP as a mechanic between parties that desire to fight, but you are seeing and will likely continue to see it becoming less acceptable as a method of conflict resolution.

So..... Watch this space?



Rifkinn

I've played and trained several necromancers now, along with all the other guilds (apart from bard).

The necromancer guild is massively better than any other guild in this game. Self heal, self rezz, hunting partner pets, survival prime, incredible batch of spells across all magic skills...

If the only downside is that they can't be in town long, then I'll be interested to see the percentage splits of guild choice in 2018 vs 2019, when we reach the end of the year.

When the necromancer guild was first released, it created a lot of grey area, between policy and roleplay stance. This change has done the same thing. Personally I'll be avoiding all necromancer contact in the game until the dust settles and the roleplay/policy balance is a safe place to be again.

I have a clarification question on the policy stuff. It states in NEWS 5 25 that:

---

* You harmed/killed my construct/Risen! Can I report?
Risen are "free game", so you CANNOT report. However, it DOES give consent. Consent is over after one death, regardless of who wins.

---

Is this still the case, or would this now be a REPORTable offense and the news item just hasn't been updated yet?

Thanks,
-Biomancer Karthor

Okay, I am officially pissed off. Random justice rooms suck, but this takes the cake.

A small unit of battle-hardened paladins and elite ranger trackers enters the area. One of the rangers gestures curtly at you and says, "That's the one."
They surround you quickly, and with a barrage of clubs, spells, and blunted arrows you soon find yourself helplessly bound on the ground. You have a few moments of limited coherence as the lead paladin states to somebody you cannot see, "We'll take him back to The City of Shard now, thank you for the assistance."
Then, the world goes black for a while as you feel yourself being transported elsewhere.
The sentinel brings you to the jail, where several companions aid to hold you down and strip you of all your possessions. They are placed in a sack under the watchful eye of the jail warden, and then you are ushered to a cell, the door opened just long enough for you to be shoved inside.

I was hunting on Wyvern Mountain. You know, one of the most dangerous places on Elanthia? And this has never happened before, so I assume it is a new part of the SO system.

---

"If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself." ~ Martin Heidegger

Hi everyone, I've seen a lot of these posts expressing frustration that the system is tuned too high or broken. I've looked into a number of, if not all of these claims, and have yet to find an example of the system working differently than we have expressed. In all cases, the individual has accrued Social Outrage through their activities in JUSTICE zones, or had excessive debt and had a posse sent after them. While we understand that these changes took people by surprise, and that the use of the Maelshyvean talisman may have resulted in more Social Outrage than some people were prepared for, it was never intended for Necromancers to be lingering in JUSTICE zones without taking necessary precautions or modifying their behavior accordingly.

We strongly encourage everyone to make liberal use of the JUSTICE verb to be very clear about what areas are and are not justice zones, to not linger in townships, and if you find that your Social Outrage is dangerously high, to consider leaving the province to let things cool off. If upon reviewing your logs you are unsure of what has occurred or feel that the system is not operating as intended, please feel free to assist or post more information and we'll try and address these matters. Of particular note, if you feel a room is set to JUSTICE and it should not be, please BUG the room and we will be able to more easily review that specific issue.

>>Do you think these changes, at their current level, are promoting that?

I've heard very little about the actual player-level implications of what we've done aside from concerns regarding orbs. I'm making a sharp distinction between Necromancer versus player and Necromancer versus environment here, because "Necromancer as a hunted pariah" is pretty heavily written into the DNA of the guild and not something I wanted to do away with. What we aimed to do is normalize the experience between players and turn the pariah-play into a fully realized game mechanic instead of a PvP-by-proxy mechanic.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

>>We strongly encourage everyone to make liberal use of the JUSTICE verb to be very clear about what areas are and are not justice zones, to not linger in townships, and if you find that your Social Outrage is dangerously high, to consider leaving the province to let things cool off.

Any chance the JUSTICE verb can be tweaked to show the governing province for the area you're in? That's my only real issue at this point: the "non-provincial areas". I did something that I knew would give me SO but, because I was in an unusual area, had no way of knowing WHERE that act would get me into trouble.

>justice
After assessing the area, you think local law enforcement keeps an eye on what's going on here.
You are confident this area is in Ilithi.


I'm completely fine with the current state. I just hate being surprised by a default value.

- I

I have a necro that was in a no justice zone (fang cove) for quite a while of time, yes he has made a couple risen but he doesnt use them as while they are not monstrous they are have pretty ugly humanoids.

I take him into crossings with no spells up, check the wanted board for anything new & bam, get hit with the "you better get out of town" type warning. Okay, run him out to the new airship thinking I'll put him up in muspar'i for a bit. Havent cast any sort of spells in town, no orbs, etc but sure I'll move him for a bit.
Standing there & bam, gets snagged, thrown in jail & escorted to dirge.
No robes, this necro didnt have his "necro" titles on (that was a baby necro I did it to out in a non justice area) so not sure why this necro got tossed so badly.

Sorry but I think in some cases the tuning level is a bit on the high side, but not sure whats what.

I think it may bear repeating that there is a difference between Social Outrage and Suspicion. You can have zero Social Outrage, and as you linger in any JUSTICE zone, you generate Suspicion. If your Suspicion reaches a certain level, you will be accused of Necromancy, which will generate Social Outrage in that province. You have tools to mitigate Suspicion, and if you are not using them, you may find yourself arrested rather quickly. Suspicion includes a random component that may muddy some of the observations people are trying to establish. The only Necromancer that is currently safe from this is an Unsullied Necromancer. If you find yourself waiting somewhere, you should make sure it is not a justice zone.

And finally, as a reminder, the system is simply performing the ACCUSE part of the exchange now. Had a player gone to a guard and accused you, you would have had the same consequence.

Thoughts about the new justice/social outrage/suspicion mechanics..

I went about 4 years with only ever getting one charge for forbidden practices because I intentionally kept a fairly low profile. Since the change has happened (and since enchanting's release) I've gotten about 5 charges a couple weeks while doing nothing but sigil walking in town. I'll be just walking room to room perceiving, no guards around and not being accused, and out of nowhere I'll get the "burn the witch!" deal after which people are "certain" I'm a necromancer. I can't seem to stay in town for more than 15 minutes before this happens.

For all the horrible things we can do, that I've never done anywhere near town, this seems a bit overkill to me. Even if it's intended, I feel like it can be fine-tuned. Some thoughts:

1) Higher Charisma should help you act like a normie in town for longer without losing your cool
2) RoC/RoG+Liturgy should do the same (if it's not)
3) Some kind of progressive messaging that we're starting to lose it, or that people are starting to notice we're acting strangely. It's a prime opportunity to explore the paranoia that is involved in the lore but never really explained in-game.
4) Let us enchant those devices that are supposed to alter our appearance/reduce social outrage. I've never actually gotten mine to work (how the heck do you activate them, anyway? no verb I've tried works).
5) Let us gather sigils while invisible! :P Add a stealth/discipline check to remain hidden each time if necessary.

All-in-all my issue isn't that I can't spend more than 15 minutes in town (sigil gathering is the only reason I'd even want to), it's that the justice-triggering suspicion threshold hits with nobody in the room and zero indication beforehand. It's so binary which doesn't add any depth to the experience.

Here is an option...hand the accusing back to the players, unless the outrage is fully tanked, then auto punch it.