So why exactly does Beckon the Naga still get to utilize TM buffs but not Zombies?
Also, WTB Devour update <3
KAELRX
NELARYN
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 09:54 AM CDT
BtN is more like a cyclic TM spell than an actual pet, which is probably why it still gets to be affected by TM buffs. That being said, I may not like these changes, especially since our zombies were our major heavy hitters and primary weapon in pvp encounters but I can also understand why it needs to be changed and tweaked. My own pet appraises far higher than my characters skills, so we could basically create pets that could not only take the creator on and whomp them into the dirt but could be viable against targets that we had no chance against ourselves. Does none of that make you stop and question that perhaps our ability to buff our pets to such a degree was not appropriate?
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 10:56 AM CDT
Kinda hoping RPU can work on QE mobs.
>>Does none of that make you stop and question that perhaps our ability to buff our pets to such a degree was not appropriate?
Ehh... it was a bit of the initial function of the guild. I don't mind that the guild evolved or shifted how it views things, but the setup was explicitly intentional.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
>>Does none of that make you stop and question that perhaps our ability to buff our pets to such a degree was not appropriate?
Ehh... it was a bit of the initial function of the guild. I don't mind that the guild evolved or shifted how it views things, but the setup was explicitly intentional.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 11:06 AM CDT
The setup was intentional, but intentions change. In particular, we completely normalized Necromancer TM, where in the initial design of the guild Necro TM was meant to be hyper-specialized and otherwise extremely problematic.
It's a case where we've completely removed the balancing function of the zombie and now we need to go back and revisit what the zombie can do. Though FWIW, a buffed zombie still has the highest potential in offense or defense (but not both at the same time) of any pet in the game.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
It's a case where we've completely removed the balancing function of the zombie and now we need to go back and revisit what the zombie can do. Though FWIW, a buffed zombie still has the highest potential in offense or defense (but not both at the same time) of any pet in the game.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 11:13 AM CDT
Necros that I could point out of hiding from missile range and had no chance of hitting me with TM even with a TM foci were beating me with their unbuffed zombies unless I made the fight super lame and spammed search/movement to avoid said zombies.
So yeah, they needed to be changed. It's not like the Necros themselves aren't a capable PvP guild even without the zombies, and adding them became a bit ridiculous.
So yeah, they needed to be changed. It's not like the Necros themselves aren't a capable PvP guild even without the zombies, and adding them became a bit ridiculous.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 12:05 PM CDT
>>Necros that I could point out of hiding from missile range and had no chance of hitting me with TM even with a TM foci were beating me with their unbuffed zombies unless I made the fight super lame and spammed search/movement to avoid said zombies.
AFAIK, that was a feature, not a bug. Incredible strong/powerful/deadly threat (zombie) with a super-squishy/vulnerable weak spot (necromancer).
I don't mind having it reassessed, though, given that Necros have developed in a manner that shows they're capable of holding their own, with or without zombies. On top of that, now that Risen are seen as another combat source (AFAIK: I didn't really test it myself, but they can learn to be more combative), it makes sense that something had to get adjusted. IMO, zombies are pretty strong without TM boosters influencing them, anyway.
Honestly, I think QE not benefiting from a TM buff is a bigger hit than zombies not benefiting, since they can't benefit from RPU and more often than not I used QE pre-being able to make zombies, and low level QE mobs could use any boosts they could get.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
AFAIK, that was a feature, not a bug. Incredible strong/powerful/deadly threat (zombie) with a super-squishy/vulnerable weak spot (necromancer).
I don't mind having it reassessed, though, given that Necros have developed in a manner that shows they're capable of holding their own, with or without zombies. On top of that, now that Risen are seen as another combat source (AFAIK: I didn't really test it myself, but they can learn to be more combative), it makes sense that something had to get adjusted. IMO, zombies are pretty strong without TM boosters influencing them, anyway.
Honestly, I think QE not benefiting from a TM buff is a bigger hit than zombies not benefiting, since they can't benefit from RPU and more often than not I used QE pre-being able to make zombies, and low level QE mobs could use any boosts they could get.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 01:21 PM CDT
Repeating my post here for Necro specific discussion -
Reply Reply Delete Delete
Here's the result of my fiddling (I assume I have the sequence of appraisal values right, based on epedia, but some may be flipped). All appraisals are offensive/defensive, with the same layouts for me.
(based on 5 appraise carefuls, averaged)
On prime, without IVM and without RPU, Zombies appraise as 7.8/11
On prime, without IVM and with RPU, Zombies appraise as 9.2/12
On prime, with IVM and without RPU, Zombies appraise as 9/12
On prime, with IVM and with RPU, Zombies appraise as 12.2/12
On test without RPU, Zombies appraise as 6.2/6.8
On test with RPU offensive, Zombies appraise as 8/7
On test with RPU defensive, Zombies appraise as 5.8/8.2 (not sure what happened here?)
On prime, construct without IVM appraise at 7/9
On prime, construct with IVM appraise at 8/10
On test, constructs appraise at 6/7.
Did some testing with a Rangers AF. The AF pre-POS appraised as -5/-5. With POS it appraised as -1/-11 (wat). It then autoengaged my zombie, and started spamming a spell at my zombie that looked a bit like the text from Dispel? I'm not at all sure what this spell effect did to the zombie, but, I can say that despite my zombie appraising at 8/7 to his -1/-11, my zombie was only able to land hits between 1-3 damage, and took well over 2minutes of swinging to finally kill the plague spawn. That seems pretty wonky, especially given that the Rangers TM was pretty close to half my TM. The Ranger, mind you, was down to 60% vit after 4-5 hits from my zombie. I'd be curious to hear what's going on with that - is it an undead specific offensive debuff solely for the spawn?
I can understand this rebalance, but it feels like a pretty heavy hit to the Necro pet wheelhouse. Given that zombies have the heaviest restrictions of any pet (requiring preparation, undead so weak to holy), this feels pretty punitive, especially in the face of some of the other restrictions Necros as an overall guild face. Can we maybe hear a bit more about what's planned with this? PvP wise this makes things a lot rougher for Necros, as it stands.
Reply Reply Delete Delete
Here's the result of my fiddling (I assume I have the sequence of appraisal values right, based on epedia, but some may be flipped). All appraisals are offensive/defensive, with the same layouts for me.
(based on 5 appraise carefuls, averaged)
On prime, without IVM and without RPU, Zombies appraise as 7.8/11
On prime, without IVM and with RPU, Zombies appraise as 9.2/12
On prime, with IVM and without RPU, Zombies appraise as 9/12
On prime, with IVM and with RPU, Zombies appraise as 12.2/12
On test without RPU, Zombies appraise as 6.2/6.8
On test with RPU offensive, Zombies appraise as 8/7
On test with RPU defensive, Zombies appraise as 5.8/8.2 (not sure what happened here?)
On prime, construct without IVM appraise at 7/9
On prime, construct with IVM appraise at 8/10
On test, constructs appraise at 6/7.
Did some testing with a Rangers AF. The AF pre-POS appraised as -5/-5. With POS it appraised as -1/-11 (wat). It then autoengaged my zombie, and started spamming a spell at my zombie that looked a bit like the text from Dispel? I'm not at all sure what this spell effect did to the zombie, but, I can say that despite my zombie appraising at 8/7 to his -1/-11, my zombie was only able to land hits between 1-3 damage, and took well over 2minutes of swinging to finally kill the plague spawn. That seems pretty wonky, especially given that the Rangers TM was pretty close to half my TM. The Ranger, mind you, was down to 60% vit after 4-5 hits from my zombie. I'd be curious to hear what's going on with that - is it an undead specific offensive debuff solely for the spawn?
I can understand this rebalance, but it feels like a pretty heavy hit to the Necro pet wheelhouse. Given that zombies have the heaviest restrictions of any pet (requiring preparation, undead so weak to holy), this feels pretty punitive, especially in the face of some of the other restrictions Necros as an overall guild face. Can we maybe hear a bit more about what's planned with this? PvP wise this makes things a lot rougher for Necros, as it stands.
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 02:21 PM CDT
>AFAIK, that was a feature, not a bug. Incredible strong/powerful/deadly threat (zombie) with a super-squishy/vulnerable weak spot (necromancer).
I never claimed it was a bug, I applaud the change. It was needed. Pets that are as powerful (or moreso) than the PC are fine in theory if they come with some restrictions (i.e. Empaths cannot regularly attack non-constructs, and going into shock makes casting GS more difficult). Necromancers have been quite capable on their own accord for quite some time now, and there are no combat-related costs that come with such powerful pets.
Outside introducing some Empath-like restrictions on having zombies up, the simplest solution is scaling down the power level of the pets.
I never claimed it was a bug, I applaud the change. It was needed. Pets that are as powerful (or moreso) than the PC are fine in theory if they come with some restrictions (i.e. Empaths cannot regularly attack non-constructs, and going into shock makes casting GS more difficult). Necromancers have been quite capable on their own accord for quite some time now, and there are no combat-related costs that come with such powerful pets.
Outside introducing some Empath-like restrictions on having zombies up, the simplest solution is scaling down the power level of the pets.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 02:51 PM CDT
>PC are fine in theory if they come with some restrictions
To repeat the point, zombies are the most restrictive pets in the game. They cannot simply be resummoned, and if you are caught without one, short of asking the person attacking you politely if you can have ~5m to go create one, you will not be able to make use of one in combat. Zombie creation generates DO, so you will also probably not be making enough zombies daily to always have a zombie at your beck and call.
I understand the need to rebalance pets as a whole, and think comprehensively this is a fine move, assuming some other tweaks come down the line. But zombies (and mudmen!) are without a doubt the most potent Necromancer PvP tool, so a reducing their power is a nerf to the guild as a whole.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 02:53 PM CDT
Oh, and to add, zombies and mudmen are the only pets that are specifically weak to holy spells. And none of HE, PS, or Bless are signature.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 03:07 PM CDT
Yes, zombies were nerfed.
Yes, the Necromancer offensive wheelhouse was affected.
I cannot begin to state, short of breaking my NDA, how out of control zombie offensive and defensive growth is before this change. This was designed in an environment where the Necromancer was considered to be mostly irrelevant as a direct combatant, a stance we have steadily backpeddled on to the point where it has no truth to it whatsoever. Design wise, there is simply no call for Necromancer pets to scale like they have anymore.
Necropets still do not consume the cyclic slot. They are still capable of being the most effective pet in offense or defense (but not both at the same time). Pets as a whole took a hit, and Necromancers are only hurt worse because we've grown used to excess.
Of course tweaks are on the table, particularly we are open to suggestions for other improvements or ease of use features that do not have to do with the raw skills and stats of the zombie. But as a general statement, Necromancers having less offensive power than before is not a problem to be solved.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
Yes, the Necromancer offensive wheelhouse was affected.
I cannot begin to state, short of breaking my NDA, how out of control zombie offensive and defensive growth is before this change. This was designed in an environment where the Necromancer was considered to be mostly irrelevant as a direct combatant, a stance we have steadily backpeddled on to the point where it has no truth to it whatsoever. Design wise, there is simply no call for Necromancer pets to scale like they have anymore.
Necropets still do not consume the cyclic slot. They are still capable of being the most effective pet in offense or defense (but not both at the same time). Pets as a whole took a hit, and Necromancers are only hurt worse because we've grown used to excess.
Of course tweaks are on the table, particularly we are open to suggestions for other improvements or ease of use features that do not have to do with the raw skills and stats of the zombie. But as a general statement, Necromancers having less offensive power than before is not a problem to be solved.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 03:16 PM CDT
>> is it an undead specific offensive debuff solely for the spawn?
No, it wasn't able to affect your zombie in any way. The plague spawn gives up some defense in favor of offense, but it's still pretty tanky.
GM Grejuva
No, it wasn't able to affect your zombie in any way. The plague spawn gives up some defense in favor of offense, but it's still pretty tanky.
GM Grejuva
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 03:43 PM CDT
>>I cannot begin to state, short of breaking my NDA, how out of control zombie offensive and defensive growth is before this change. This was designed in an environment where the Necromancer was considered to be mostly irrelevant as a direct combatant, a stance we have steadily backpeddled on to the point where it has no truth to it whatsoever. Design wise, there is simply no call for Necromancer pets to scale like they have anymore.
It stinks from a selfish standpoint but I get it. I kinda wish QE still benefit from IVM being up when it's cast, since it doesn't have its own buffs, especially because I tended to use QE as an everyday PvE thing pre-zombie, which also meant I used it when I was a little baby, which also was during a time where every extra point of TM helped, but once again I get the change.
Plus, it does seem like Risen are being re-assessed as a combat-friendly thing (at least to the point that you can teach it combat stuff), so something had to eventually give.
For general zombie suggestions, I'm wondering if we can reconsider the time-investment to making a CFB zombie:
1) Can the RT for arise get adjusted as you gain thanatology?
2) Can NR get a potency boost, at least pre-being alive again?
3) Can what you make a zombie out of matter more? It might be because I'm not super-skilled enough, but I don't see much difference between a ship rat and a storm bull when it comes to what I make my zombie out of.
4) I wouldn't kick a spell that does just vit damage out of bed these days, both to speed up zombie creation (less need for NR!) and general butchery needs these days.
For RPU suggestions:
1) It would be neat if RPU could benefit offense or defense based on the stance you have your zombie. It sounds like you have to choose at the point of casting right now.
2) Part of me wonders if it would be better if there were separate offense and defense versions of RPU, at two slots each, which both did a touch extra to make them neat. Like the offense RPU allowed a zombie to develop claws, and the defense RPU allowed a zombie to develop some kind of defensive parry/shield capable scales, or whatever. Not that you could have both up at once (although I wouldn't turn that down), but to better distinguish the options beyond just "well, pick one boost or another."
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
It stinks from a selfish standpoint but I get it. I kinda wish QE still benefit from IVM being up when it's cast, since it doesn't have its own buffs, especially because I tended to use QE as an everyday PvE thing pre-zombie, which also meant I used it when I was a little baby, which also was during a time where every extra point of TM helped, but once again I get the change.
Plus, it does seem like Risen are being re-assessed as a combat-friendly thing (at least to the point that you can teach it combat stuff), so something had to eventually give.
For general zombie suggestions, I'm wondering if we can reconsider the time-investment to making a CFB zombie:
1) Can the RT for arise get adjusted as you gain thanatology?
2) Can NR get a potency boost, at least pre-being alive again?
3) Can what you make a zombie out of matter more? It might be because I'm not super-skilled enough, but I don't see much difference between a ship rat and a storm bull when it comes to what I make my zombie out of.
4) I wouldn't kick a spell that does just vit damage out of bed these days, both to speed up zombie creation (less need for NR!) and general butchery needs these days.
For RPU suggestions:
1) It would be neat if RPU could benefit offense or defense based on the stance you have your zombie. It sounds like you have to choose at the point of casting right now.
2) Part of me wonders if it would be better if there were separate offense and defense versions of RPU, at two slots each, which both did a touch extra to make them neat. Like the offense RPU allowed a zombie to develop claws, and the defense RPU allowed a zombie to develop some kind of defensive parry/shield capable scales, or whatever. Not that you could have both up at once (although I wouldn't turn that down), but to better distinguish the options beyond just "well, pick one boost or another."
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 03:49 PM CDT
>To repeat the point, zombies are the most restrictive pets in the game.
No, they're not. Guardian spirits are the most restrictive combat pets in the game. Zombies are slightly more labor-intensive, that's not the same.
>They cannot simply be resummoned
I played a Necro to 60 and had my zombie die twice to a Cleric, and both times I over-committed. That's it. If you're properly controlling them with macros, zombie death is an incredibly rare occurrence.
>and if you are caught without one, short of asking the person attacking you politely if you can have ~5m to go create one, you will not be able to make use of one in combat
And? Sometimes you're caught without combat buffs up if you're set to PvP Open. It takes a Paladin five minutes to spell up. The upkeep of combat utility is par for the course, it's not a "downside."
>Zombie creation generates DO
DO is a flavor restriction, not a combat restriction. DO does not affect a singular PvP engagement like Empaths being unable to attack does, unless you're strutting around on the very edge of getting smitten by the Gods, and that's on you and your playstyle, not a fault with zombies.
>so you will also probably not be making enough zombies daily to always have a zombie at your beck and call.
I never found this to be the case, and like I said, I played a Necro to 60. Maybe we have different expectations about the frequency with which calling zombies is normal? I don't consider them in the same class like Shadow Servants or ranger companions, something you just walk around with all the time. I never once ran into a case where I wanted a zombie and couldn't make one.
>Oh, and to add, zombies and mudmen are the only pets that are specifically weak to holy spells. And none of HE, PS, or Bless are signature.
Savvy PvPers of the magical variety frequently carry HE/PS wands and scrolls. Do you want to know why they did that before today? Because zombies were so overpowered relative to skill level that fighting them otherwise was impossible.
At the very upper limits of skill, zombies could outpace players with buffs up by (I estimate) 500-750 ranks. It's just ridiculous. At ~100+ circles, unless you're a Cleric, you didn't fight the zombie, period. And what combat price did Necromancers pay for this power? Were they crippled of stealth and invisibility? No. Did they lose access to some form of snipe? No. Did they lack basic, utilitarian buffs? No. Did they have lacking TM? No. Did they lack any form of disabler whatsoever? No.
Did they just get nerfed? Yes, and it was absolutely called for. Any necessary reparations should come in the form of giving them another cool TM spell or another disabler to make the Necro themself slightly more capable, not by making zombies more powerful than PCs again.
No, they're not. Guardian spirits are the most restrictive combat pets in the game. Zombies are slightly more labor-intensive, that's not the same.
>They cannot simply be resummoned
I played a Necro to 60 and had my zombie die twice to a Cleric, and both times I over-committed. That's it. If you're properly controlling them with macros, zombie death is an incredibly rare occurrence.
>and if you are caught without one, short of asking the person attacking you politely if you can have ~5m to go create one, you will not be able to make use of one in combat
And? Sometimes you're caught without combat buffs up if you're set to PvP Open. It takes a Paladin five minutes to spell up. The upkeep of combat utility is par for the course, it's not a "downside."
>Zombie creation generates DO
DO is a flavor restriction, not a combat restriction. DO does not affect a singular PvP engagement like Empaths being unable to attack does, unless you're strutting around on the very edge of getting smitten by the Gods, and that's on you and your playstyle, not a fault with zombies.
>so you will also probably not be making enough zombies daily to always have a zombie at your beck and call.
I never found this to be the case, and like I said, I played a Necro to 60. Maybe we have different expectations about the frequency with which calling zombies is normal? I don't consider them in the same class like Shadow Servants or ranger companions, something you just walk around with all the time. I never once ran into a case where I wanted a zombie and couldn't make one.
>Oh, and to add, zombies and mudmen are the only pets that are specifically weak to holy spells. And none of HE, PS, or Bless are signature.
Savvy PvPers of the magical variety frequently carry HE/PS wands and scrolls. Do you want to know why they did that before today? Because zombies were so overpowered relative to skill level that fighting them otherwise was impossible.
At the very upper limits of skill, zombies could outpace players with buffs up by (I estimate) 500-750 ranks. It's just ridiculous. At ~100+ circles, unless you're a Cleric, you didn't fight the zombie, period. And what combat price did Necromancers pay for this power? Were they crippled of stealth and invisibility? No. Did they lose access to some form of snipe? No. Did they lack basic, utilitarian buffs? No. Did they have lacking TM? No. Did they lack any form of disabler whatsoever? No.
Did they just get nerfed? Yes, and it was absolutely called for. Any necessary reparations should come in the form of giving them another cool TM spell or another disabler to make the Necro themself slightly more capable, not by making zombies more powerful than PCs again.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 04:12 PM CDT
>ARMIFER: I cannot begin to state, short of breaking my NDA, how out of control zombie offensive and defensive growth is before this change. This was designed in an environment where the Necromancer was considered to be mostly irrelevant as a direct combatant, a stance we have steadily backpeddled on to the point where it has no truth to it whatsoever. Design wise, there is simply no call for Necromancer pets to scale like they have anymore.
I do understand that, and agree that once you look at character growth long term this did largely seem unbalanced and OP. I would suggest that a QoL matter remains with zombies requiring creation, making a more restrictive tool for PvP outside the context of Necromancer as aggressor, or Wyvern trials style pre-agreed upon combat. As a potential QoL matter, I would suggest providing zombies with some enhanced degree of longevity, to make them functional in the event of 'surprise PvP', so to speak. Maybe NR or recasts of CFB extend the duration of the zombie?
I'm not sure what's in mind here - zombies feel almost exclusively to be a PvP pet, and given their use I almost only ever would find myself in a position to use a zombie when I'm sparring with someone and we've agreed I'll be using said zombie. I know that Risen are supposed to be the 'permanent pet' role, and I also understand that nerfing zombies to be more in line is a needed update, but this makes the zombie creation requirement to feel more punishing as part of the (slight) defanging we see.
>GREJUVA: No, it wasn't able to affect your zombie in any way. The plague spawn gives up some defense in favor of offense, but it's still pretty tanky.
Is what the plague spawn is doing with that repeated cast then PAFO? And I'm not sure if my appraisals were off, or what, but AF w/o POS appraised as even in terms of offensive and defensive difficulty (-5/-5), and AF w/POS appraised as enormously stronger offensively than defensive (-1/-11). What I found weird was that my zombie had a fairly difficult time bringing down the plague spawn, relative to the Ranger, so given the enormously weak defensive appraisal on the plague spawn, I was unsure what exactly was going on.
>TEQUILASUNRISE: And? Sometimes you're caught without combat buffs up if you're set to PvP Open. It takes a Paladin five minutes to spell up. The upkeep of combat utility is par for the course, it's not a "downside."
The difference is a Paladin (and indeed, any one) can keep their buffs up 24/7 as part of normal hunting routines. A Necromancer cannot keep a zombie up 24/7 without accruing lethal levels of DO.
>singular PvP engagement like Empaths being unable to attack does
Empaths are able to attack.
>And what combat price did Necromancers pay for this power?
As I've already stated, the price they paid was that this power was only available if the Necromancer had prepared it. A restriction not found in any other pet or buff.
>Did they just get nerfed? Yes, and it was absolutely called for. Any necessary reparations should come in the form of giving them another cool TM spell or another disabler to make the Necro themself slightly more capable, not by making zombies more powerful than PCs again.
Yes. I concur. Which is why I did not ask for zombies to be restored to their absurd glory.
ALGOTHI
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 05:14 PM CDT
> ... particularly we are open to suggestions for other improvements or ease of use features that do not have to do with the raw skills and stats of the zombie.
This is good news. Right now in regards to PvE, I find it very hard to find a reason to use QE/CFB over USOL for offense. While QE/CFB has some advantages on the defensive side, I generally dont find those things useful for day-to-day hunting. To make the comparison worse, USOL has very light restrictions/startup times compared to QE/CFB.
I would love if NR potency was massively increased when cast on a corpse. Right now it takes far too long to heal a dead mob up to become a zombie. A TM spell that does no physical damage to a target would also be a welcomed additional to help here.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
This is good news. Right now in regards to PvE, I find it very hard to find a reason to use QE/CFB over USOL for offense. While QE/CFB has some advantages on the defensive side, I generally dont find those things useful for day-to-day hunting. To make the comparison worse, USOL has very light restrictions/startup times compared to QE/CFB.
I would love if NR potency was massively increased when cast on a corpse. Right now it takes far too long to heal a dead mob up to become a zombie. A TM spell that does no physical damage to a target would also be a welcomed additional to help here.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 05:36 PM CDT
>>Is what the plague spawn is doing with that repeated cast then PAFO?
It is Dispel; failing, in your case.
>>And I'm not sure if my appraisals were off, or what, but AF w/o POS appraised as even in terms of offensive and defensive difficulty (-5/-5), and AF w/POS appraised as enormously stronger offensively than defensive (-1/-11). What I found weird was that my zombie had a fairly difficult time bringing down the plague spawn, relative to the Ranger, so given the enormously weak defensive appraisal on the plague spawn, I was unsure what exactly was going on.
PLS flips the spawn's offense-defense balance. It's still heavily armored, though. Think of it as a perk along the lines of CFB allowing the use of ranged weapons.
>>Part of me wonders if it would be better if there were separate offense and defense versions of RPU, at two slots each, which both did a touch extra to make them neat.
This was our earlier direction too. We could possibly return to it if there are compelling enough ideas for the separate spells.
We are definitely considering the suggestions made in this thread.
GM Grejuva
It is Dispel; failing, in your case.
>>And I'm not sure if my appraisals were off, or what, but AF w/o POS appraised as even in terms of offensive and defensive difficulty (-5/-5), and AF w/POS appraised as enormously stronger offensively than defensive (-1/-11). What I found weird was that my zombie had a fairly difficult time bringing down the plague spawn, relative to the Ranger, so given the enormously weak defensive appraisal on the plague spawn, I was unsure what exactly was going on.
PLS flips the spawn's offense-defense balance. It's still heavily armored, though. Think of it as a perk along the lines of CFB allowing the use of ranged weapons.
>>Part of me wonders if it would be better if there were separate offense and defense versions of RPU, at two slots each, which both did a touch extra to make them neat.
This was our earlier direction too. We could possibly return to it if there are compelling enough ideas for the separate spells.
We are definitely considering the suggestions made in this thread.
GM Grejuva
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/02/2018 06:01 PM CDT
Aha. Why a dispel? Will it pull off rpu if it succeeds? Or is the thought to remove any critter buffs? Are there many?
And if the survivability was due to the spawns armor, I'm curious if that armor is also found on the non POS version? If so, that's a really sturdy pet, even with that defensive reduction! Neat.
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 09:31 AM CDT
Maybe we can have RPU become a way to extend the CFB timer, and create two new offense/defense spells. The more explicit spell versions would expand on what the current expansion ideas do. I threw in some elemental fun at the end as a meta that works for both because why not ask.
RPU 2.0: a metaspell for NR, it does something more explicit to its name by extending the duration of a zombie when NR is cast (on a fully healed zombie?)
Contagion: agitates the natural parasites and diseases in a corpse to cause distress in the zombie, infuriating it. Along with increasing its rage (offense), sometimes driving it into a blind rage that makes it charge its target (offensive command special), sometimes causing it to tackle and maul its target (melee offensive command special that makes the target prone+hit by a multi strike by the zombie), the zombie may fling its putrefying flesh at targets from a distance (if the zombie doesn’t have a ranged weapon, it generates “blobs” it can chuck as a LT).
Rigor: stiffens the corpse in key areas, improving the zombie’s ability to deflect and block blows (along with a parry/block boost, if it doesn’t have a weapon or shield it gains “natural” shield/parry-friendly parts). Throat muscles tighten in a way that allows it to emit an ominous bellow, drawing those who hear it to them in a blind rage, and maddening those who are too close (ranged defense special and a melee defense special that causes nearby mobs to faint).
Agitate: the Arcane effects of Contagion and Rigor are infused with an additional elemental matrix, expanding their capabilities. For Contagion, natural blows also cause intense burning from contact with the diseases that ravage the body (minor fire damage boost), while zombies under the power of Rigor gain cold and fire immunity (I think zombies have just electrical now, right?), but is still just as vulnerable to the elemental effects of holy magic.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
RPU 2.0: a metaspell for NR, it does something more explicit to its name by extending the duration of a zombie when NR is cast (on a fully healed zombie?)
Contagion: agitates the natural parasites and diseases in a corpse to cause distress in the zombie, infuriating it. Along with increasing its rage (offense), sometimes driving it into a blind rage that makes it charge its target (offensive command special), sometimes causing it to tackle and maul its target (melee offensive command special that makes the target prone+hit by a multi strike by the zombie), the zombie may fling its putrefying flesh at targets from a distance (if the zombie doesn’t have a ranged weapon, it generates “blobs” it can chuck as a LT).
Rigor: stiffens the corpse in key areas, improving the zombie’s ability to deflect and block blows (along with a parry/block boost, if it doesn’t have a weapon or shield it gains “natural” shield/parry-friendly parts). Throat muscles tighten in a way that allows it to emit an ominous bellow, drawing those who hear it to them in a blind rage, and maddening those who are too close (ranged defense special and a melee defense special that causes nearby mobs to faint).
Agitate: the Arcane effects of Contagion and Rigor are infused with an additional elemental matrix, expanding their capabilities. For Contagion, natural blows also cause intense burning from contact with the diseases that ravage the body (minor fire damage boost), while zombies under the power of Rigor gain cold and fire immunity (I think zombies have just electrical now, right?), but is still just as vulnerable to the elemental effects of holy magic.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 09:45 AM CDT
As a possible addition, I'd love if pets in general had more CC options, given the ease of RETR RETR. For zombies for example, a special attack that roots, for mudmen a special attack that debuffs missile and/or TM.
Maybe a taunt that acts a general debuff if the taunted target attacks anything other than the pet?
NOTANECRO
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 10:21 AM CDT
These sound like great abilities for Risen to make them combat viable since they are a signature guild ability.
HOLSCHAUERK
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 03:52 PM CDT
It sounds like this was an appropriate nerf, although no one likes nerfs.
However, would it be possible for the powers to be to consider letting risen be tuned to be combat viable? Most people mostly hunt, pursuit of risen is supposedly a big part of a necros focus, ipso facto a necromancer would build something to help them hunt.
KAELRX
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 04:00 PM CDT
We've already been down that road when they were released. They don't want them to be at all combat viable at level, they want you to use CFB/QE for that.
My take on the system is that it has a lot of potential but it's not fleshed out (hah) very well now and that a lot of the options don't really have a meaning or purpose (e.g. why have multiple eyes, different brain, multiple legs or multiple arms). And even if multiple arms DID up the attack, you still wouldn't be using them at level to hunt or on anyone other than someone so far below you that it's a dis to kill them with your Risen (which sadly, you have to be in the room with them to order them to attack anything).
My take on the system is that it has a lot of potential but it's not fleshed out (hah) very well now and that a lot of the options don't really have a meaning or purpose (e.g. why have multiple eyes, different brain, multiple legs or multiple arms). And even if multiple arms DID up the attack, you still wouldn't be using them at level to hunt or on anyone other than someone so far below you that it's a dis to kill them with your Risen (which sadly, you have to be in the room with them to order them to attack anything).
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
05/03/2018 05:16 PM CDT
>>We've already been down that road when they were released.
Yeah, but this thread explicitly highlights that the road can change.
Plus, risen can learn how to be more combat-ready. I don't personally know how good they are when they learn the combat-ready trick, but they can learn it.
>>a lot of the options don't really have a meaning or purpose (e.g. why have multiple eyes, different brain, multiple legs or multiple arms)
Even with my severely limited experience in creating Risen, I know one of these has a very useful meaning/purpose, if not two.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
Yeah, but this thread explicitly highlights that the road can change.
Plus, risen can learn how to be more combat-ready. I don't personally know how good they are when they learn the combat-ready trick, but they can learn it.
>>a lot of the options don't really have a meaning or purpose (e.g. why have multiple eyes, different brain, multiple legs or multiple arms)
Even with my severely limited experience in creating Risen, I know one of these has a very useful meaning/purpose, if not two.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ANARCHIE
Re: Pet Nerfs
03/06/2019 02:29 PM CST
Thread resurrection, but hey.. ITS WHAT WE DO AMIRITE?!
So now that we're seeing more new and interesting metaspells and damage streams that exist outside of normal TM 'target x 10' and cast restrictions, when can we expect to see our pet adjustment reviewed? With a suite of spells that exist to prevent 'normal' defenses from applying, I think it makes sense that an ability exist beyond normal means for Necromancers as well. I struggle not to make this a GvG thing and wonder sometimes if CFB is that spell, but for today I'm going with yes.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/Category:Defense_ignoring_abilities
Ignore Shields:
Burn (Moon Mage)
Harm Evil, Harm Horde, and Soul Attrition (Cleric)
Lightning Bolt (Warrior Mage)
Armor Piercing:
Frost Scythe (Warrior Mage)
Partial Displacement (Moon Mage)
Armor Ignoring:
Harm Evil, Harm Horde (Cleric)
I think there's a precedent for magic to exceed or creep around 'global standards and caps' so I'd hope we can address this thing and Make Risen Great Again!
-Nsar
TK-421
Re: Pet Nerfs
03/06/2019 02:57 PM CST
>> With a suite of spells that exist to prevent 'normal' defenses from applying, I think it makes sense that an ability exist beyond normal means for Necromancers as well. I struggle not to make this a GvG thing and wonder sometimes if CFB is that spell, but for today I'm going with yes.
Understanding that global caps (and overall balance) are a thing, I would love to see ways to further augment our zombies beyond just RPU. Additional augmentation spells, grafting, feeding them abilities/techniques a la Risen (stealth, anybody?)... anything, really.
Being characterized as the "premier" pet in the game, they still feel a little on the squishy side. (Example: If you're fighting in a group setting and are running USOL area they can just sort of explode.)
- I
Understanding that global caps (and overall balance) are a thing, I would love to see ways to further augment our zombies beyond just RPU. Additional augmentation spells, grafting, feeding them abilities/techniques a la Risen (stealth, anybody?)... anything, really.
Being characterized as the "premier" pet in the game, they still feel a little on the squishy side. (Example: If you're fighting in a group setting and are running USOL area they can just sort of explode.)
- I
LCAMP2
Re: Pet Nerfs
03/06/2019 03:18 PM CST
<<and wonder sometimes if CFB is that spell
I think Vivisection is that spell.
"Snipe uses Stealth, the appropriate weapon skill, and the guild-only skill (Backstab, Scouting, or Thanatology) as a modifier vs. the target's Perception and defenses"
I think Vivisection is that spell.
"Snipe uses Stealth, the appropriate weapon skill, and the guild-only skill (Backstab, Scouting, or Thanatology) as a modifier vs. the target's Perception and defenses"
ANARCHIE
Re: Pet Nerfs
03/06/2019 04:52 PM CST
I'm okay with Vivisection being that spell if a few adjustments are made:
1. Allow it to be a true Snipe and stop injecting easymode with the automatic naming of the attacker (Thieves and Rangers have no such hindrance, if they play by the rules of Snipe)
2. Add DFA mechanics so that we can bypass shield, armor, or absorption completely (Moon Mages, Clerics, Warrior Mages all have an attack that does this, See above.)
3. Make the contest our TM or Thanatology vs their defense and not the triple-whammy contest that we have to pass now (Rangers are Weapon Prime and can dual load, Thieves are survival prime and get to use confidence and bonus mechanics)
If those things were all modified, I'd sure start using Vivisection. Thankfully I doubt it'll happen as the precedent has already been set that we're not stealthy no matter what our skillset says. For that reason alone I think the better use of our time would be pet augments. Its the one truly unique thing we have going for use given the breadth and depth of pet options currently in-game and I'd like to push it back to the forefront where it belongs.
-Nsar
TEVESHSZAT
Re: Pet Nerfs
03/11/2019 10:06 AM CDT
Many X-ignoring/piercing attacks do less damage or have other limitations.
With that in mind, I'd rather a new spell do a new thing than change how an old spell (that I already like as-is) works. I don't want VIV to do less damage, or become heavy TM, or else would come with recalibrating it in the interests of a balance I don't even think needs to be done.
For example, if the conceptual "vitality damage only" TM spell was also armor-ignoring, I wouldn't be against it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
With that in mind, I'd rather a new spell do a new thing than change how an old spell (that I already like as-is) works. I don't want VIV to do less damage, or become heavy TM, or else would come with recalibrating it in the interests of a balance I don't even think needs to be done.
For example, if the conceptual "vitality damage only" TM spell was also armor-ignoring, I wouldn't be against it.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
