Okay, so I hopped in Test and ran BLB through its paces a bit, first with a Cleric friend with all her barriers (SIGH) and then over on mountain giants. I compared it against both ACS and VIV. I aimed for about midrange mana per cast, even though I usually hunt at closer to min prep.
I'm not really noticing a huge difference. It definitely seems to do a little more damage, but definitely not enough for a "cannon" spell with additional costs and an extra long cooldown. It does not significantly impact my casts-to-kill on mountain giants. It was doing better damage against the Cleric, but not very much.
I do like it as an idea, I just feel like the damage wasn't pushed hard enough. IMO the costs in vitality and DO also need to be re-evaluated, though I am curious if additional costs are going to become a standard for cannon spells in general.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
THAYET
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 07:38 PM CST
>>I just feel like the damage wasn't pushed hard enough.
This is entirely possible, though I'm not going to rush to change it until I have a little more data overall.
>>IMO the costs in vitality and DO also need to be re-evaluated, though I am curious if additional costs are going to become a standard for cannon spells in general.
Additional mana costs (Which BLB doesn't have right now) is likely to be a thing, otherwise no. BLB does still have the collateral damage and the fate of that is likely tied to the fate of the vitality/DO hits.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
This is entirely possible, though I'm not going to rush to change it until I have a little more data overall.
>>IMO the costs in vitality and DO also need to be re-evaluated, though I am curious if additional costs are going to become a standard for cannon spells in general.
Additional mana costs (Which BLB doesn't have right now) is likely to be a thing, otherwise no. BLB does still have the collateral damage and the fate of that is likely tied to the fate of the vitality/DO hits.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 08:32 PM CST
Did a small amount of testing, seem to have approximately 15-20s CD with BlB - at equivalent mana casts to what I usually do VIVI snipes with, I'm alternating BlB, SV, SV, Blb, and seem to be killing pretty regularly on the fourth cast. My VIVI snipes usually kill in 5-7 or so casts.
Feels a bit lackluster to me truthfully, but that was gathered from like 5 critters, so I might be just not seeing it yet. I also didn't optimize my cast amounts or routine. I think with some massaging, this paradigm of spell could be a lot of fun to have as openers, finishers, or just breaks in the routine of spamming the same couple of spells.
That said, I'd like to see some tweaks to BlB specifically to make it worthwhile. Firstly, the bleeder/vit requirement. If PERFORM CUT worked, that'd be fine, and a 3s additional penalty means you can't put a large charge on a cambrinth before the targeting timer finishes, so, that seems a good solution. Secondly, the splash damage doesn't seem to really hit regularly, unless I'm just missing it.
Now, to the second point, maybe these spells are solely meant for single target high alpha low rate of fire spells, in which case, fine. I'm curious to see how the rest of the spells added to this model shake out, and if they'll have similar draw backs or perks (AoE, double taps, etc). For now, this seems a cool option.
ALGOTHI
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 08:38 PM CST
> IMO the costs in vitality and DO also need to be re-evaluated, though I am curious if additional costs are going to become a standard for cannon spells in general.
Casting BLB at 100 mana was costing my 13% of my vitality. I was recovering from the HTM casts in 180ish seconds, so I dont see the vit cost as all too high.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Casting BLB at 100 mana was costing my 13% of my vitality. I was recovering from the HTM casts in 180ish seconds, so I dont see the vit cost as all too high.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 08:42 PM CST
>> Did a small amount of testing, seem to have approximately 15-20s CD with BlB
This CD will go up to ~5 minutes. Raesh shortened it in Test so we could, well, test with it.
I ran through around 20 giants when testing FWIW. I didn't notice a significant difference in my casts-to-kill with BLB; it was quicker by one cast most but not all of the time. It's hard to say if that was simple RNG though.
>> Casting BLB at 100 mana was costing my 13% of my vitality. I was recovering from the HTM casts in 180ish seconds, so I dont see the vit cost as all too high.
13% is not a small amount of vitality, especially in PvP which is where I see cannon spells getting put through their paces the hardest.
Also, it doesn't scale much. You still lose about 10-11% at casts close to baseline.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
This CD will go up to ~5 minutes. Raesh shortened it in Test so we could, well, test with it.
I ran through around 20 giants when testing FWIW. I didn't notice a significant difference in my casts-to-kill with BLB; it was quicker by one cast most but not all of the time. It's hard to say if that was simple RNG though.
>> Casting BLB at 100 mana was costing my 13% of my vitality. I was recovering from the HTM casts in 180ish seconds, so I dont see the vit cost as all too high.
13% is not a small amount of vitality, especially in PvP which is where I see cannon spells getting put through their paces the hardest.
Also, it doesn't scale much. You still lose about 10-11% at casts close to baseline.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
SHAWN255
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 08:56 PM CST
Considering the costs, both vitality and DO, I would really expect it to hit significantly harder than anything else currently in the game... especially as a 'heavy' tm spell with a long cooldown.
Essentially.. if I can only use it once every 5 minutes... it should do at least like 3 minutes worth of damage in that single cast. Otherwise it will just become a spell people forget to use.
I really like the idea.. a once per fight ability.. its great (and incredibly common with most MMOs).. but please don't be too cautious with the damage.
Essentially.. if I can only use it once every 5 minutes... it should do at least like 3 minutes worth of damage in that single cast. Otherwise it will just become a spell people forget to use.
I really like the idea.. a once per fight ability.. its great (and incredibly common with most MMOs).. but please don't be too cautious with the damage.
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 09:26 PM CST
>>Essentially.. if I can only use it once every 5 minutes... it should do at least like 3 minutes worth of damage in that single cast. Otherwise it will just become a spell people forget to use.
That's not a particularly sound argument unless it was preventing you from using any other TM during that time. It does not.
>>please don't be too cautious with the damage.
I'm being cautious for three reasons:
1) I much rather start low and push higher than start high and push low. One makes people happy as they're getting buffed, the other makes them angry they're being nerfed. The way this sort of thing is received is drastically different even if the end point is the same.
2) Due to how diminishing returns work in the combat system there's some question exactly how hard I can push this. I've been playing with it but getting clean data is somewhat hard to do.
3) It was a condition of getting this through proposals (And a fair one).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
That's not a particularly sound argument unless it was preventing you from using any other TM during that time. It does not.
>>please don't be too cautious with the damage.
I'm being cautious for three reasons:
1) I much rather start low and push higher than start high and push low. One makes people happy as they're getting buffed, the other makes them angry they're being nerfed. The way this sort of thing is received is drastically different even if the end point is the same.
2) Due to how diminishing returns work in the combat system there's some question exactly how hard I can push this. I've been playing with it but getting clean data is somewhat hard to do.
3) It was a condition of getting this through proposals (And a fair one).
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 09:44 PM CST
>This CD will go up to ~5 minutes. Raesh shortened it in Test so we could, well, test with it.
Oh, I misread that! I thought the reduction to time based on TM ranks was what I was seeing. Yeesh, a ~5m CD on a spell like this is... not ideal.
I dunno, something about this still feels pretty lackluster to me. I'm not sure, for example, I'd use this in favor of just casting a different spell with no restrictions a bit higher. "Does more damage" doesn't super appeal given the way rank disparities work out. I guess in terms of making this paradigm of spell the equivalent of a combat maneuver, it's a nice extra bit of finesse to have over spellcasting, but 'doing damage' never seemed like something that TM spells were particularly struggling with.
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 09:49 PM CST
It's fair that it started off low. That's what feedback is for.
I'm curious what other kinds of results would be helpful in making tweaks to the effectiveness. Are you interested in spells per kill? PvP stuff? Against barriers? I asked this in Test, but I really want to know what niche these are supposed to fill because that will help me judge whether I will find it useful or not. I personally see this as a PvP kind of thing.
Also, do cannons have improved accuracy, or just improved damage?
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I'm curious what other kinds of results would be helpful in making tweaks to the effectiveness. Are you interested in spells per kill? PvP stuff? Against barriers? I asked this in Test, but I really want to know what niche these are supposed to fill because that will help me judge whether I will find it useful or not. I personally see this as a PvP kind of thing.
Also, do cannons have improved accuracy, or just improved damage?
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:00 PM CST
Right now they just have an improved damage template.
Some PvP numbers (Particularly with vitality loss and where they player was hit) would likely be the most controlled data players can generate - or even just trying to fit it into spars and seeing if it's helpful.
The actual niche is something I'm a little reluctant to define beyond the ability to briefly spike your DPS. I can picture that being useful as an opener, closer, or in PvP.
It's entirely possible the cooldown is too long or the damage too low (or both) or they need a kick in some other way... but I'm not going to go crazy with all three. That's another thing feedback would be useful on. Theoretically speaking, would you prefer a spell that did a LOT more damage every couple of minutes or something that did somewhat more damage, but it could be used somewhat frequently creating a sort of spell rotation system?
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Some PvP numbers (Particularly with vitality loss and where they player was hit) would likely be the most controlled data players can generate - or even just trying to fit it into spars and seeing if it's helpful.
The actual niche is something I'm a little reluctant to define beyond the ability to briefly spike your DPS. I can picture that being useful as an opener, closer, or in PvP.
It's entirely possible the cooldown is too long or the damage too low (or both) or they need a kick in some other way... but I'm not going to go crazy with all three. That's another thing feedback would be useful on. Theoretically speaking, would you prefer a spell that did a LOT more damage every couple of minutes or something that did somewhat more damage, but it could be used somewhat frequently creating a sort of spell rotation system?
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
SHAWN255
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:29 PM CST
>>That's not a particularly sound argument unless it was preventing you from using any other TM during that time. It does not.
Except that most games do that.
Abilities that do more damage or special effects.. yet have longer cool downs. As a Shaman in WoW.. its like Lightning Bolt vs Lava burst. Lavaburst doesn't have close to a 5 minute cooldown.. yet it does have a CD compared to LB. And the damage is significantly higher. Lots of examples of that in most MMOs. So the argument works.
If a spell has a cool down that prevents its regular use... it should make up for it by being noticably/significantly stronger is all I am saying.
With that said.. truly appreciate you working on this.. it is a great idea and I get why you are starting how you are.
Except that most games do that.
Abilities that do more damage or special effects.. yet have longer cool downs. As a Shaman in WoW.. its like Lightning Bolt vs Lava burst. Lavaburst doesn't have close to a 5 minute cooldown.. yet it does have a CD compared to LB. And the damage is significantly higher. Lots of examples of that in most MMOs. So the argument works.
If a spell has a cool down that prevents its regular use... it should make up for it by being noticably/significantly stronger is all I am saying.
With that said.. truly appreciate you working on this.. it is a great idea and I get why you are starting how you are.
SHAWN255
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:33 PM CST
>> That's another thing feedback would be useful on. Theoretically speaking, would you prefer a spell that did a LOT more damage every couple of minutes or something that did somewhat more damage, but it could be used somewhat frequently creating a sort of spell rotation system?
In an ideal game.. I would love both... both the slightly stronger on a smallish cooldown, and a once per fight spell that would do serious damage.
For BLB, specifically, I think it fits more in the TON more damage every couple of minutes category though.
In an ideal game.. I would love both... both the slightly stronger on a smallish cooldown, and a once per fight spell that would do serious damage.
For BLB, specifically, I think it fits more in the TON more damage every couple of minutes category though.
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:44 PM CST
>>Abilities that do more damage or special effects.. yet have longer cool downs.
And that's exactly the niche we're trying to fill.
>>If a spell has a cool down that prevents its regular use... it should make up for it by being noticably/significantly stronger is all I am saying.
Again, that's exactly what we're going for here.
It's open to debate if we're better off with "small cool down, small damage increase" or "large cool down, large damage increase." Right now we're aiming more for the later (as a reminder the cool down in test is currently artificially short to better facilitate testing.)
Can DR support both of these? Maaaaaybe, but let's get at least one of them working first.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
And that's exactly the niche we're trying to fill.
>>If a spell has a cool down that prevents its regular use... it should make up for it by being noticably/significantly stronger is all I am saying.
Again, that's exactly what we're going for here.
It's open to debate if we're better off with "small cool down, small damage increase" or "large cool down, large damage increase." Right now we're aiming more for the later (as a reminder the cool down in test is currently artificially short to better facilitate testing.)
Can DR support both of these? Maaaaaybe, but let's get at least one of them working first.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
NITUKI
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:47 PM CST
For BLB I'd much rather a stronger attack on a longer cooldown so it really is a nice burst of damage that I can use and then use other attacks. Thematically, I like the idea of sacrificing my vitality and using a heavy hit even if it is once a fight and then using other TM spells as filler. It gives it an actual identity other than a slight bump I can use every so often.
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/06/2016 10:53 PM CST
Agreed on stronger damage with longer cooldown.
I don't object to the vitality hit outright, but I do want the DO hit to go away and I want to feel like I am getting something tangible for the extra cost.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
I don't object to the vitality hit outright, but I do want the DO hit to go away and I want to feel like I am getting something tangible for the extra cost.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 06:48 AM CST
One niche that Necromancers don't have filled is a dispel. Is it possible to give these 'major targeted feats' something unique and cool, such as for BlB, a magical barrier ignore? Maybe the Warmie version hits every body location, the Moonie version does damage over time, and the Cleric version renders the target susceptible to Holy magic (bless, HE, etc) for a period of time?
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 07:42 AM CST
(This stuff isn't all explicitly about BLB, but hey)
I like cannon attacks in theory, but I'm concerned they'll end up like maneuvers for me, where their timer makes me forget to use them more often than not.
I'd prefer something more like the smite pool for Paladins, where you have a set % of charges that regenerate over time.
TBH, I think the biggest weakness for cool down abilities in DR is that there is no visual indicator to tell me when it's ready again. A message like "hey you can BLB again" might work but it's not as omnipresent as combat move icons in more visual-based games. I also feel like "hard" mobs are too few and far between (and this wouldn't one shot them–I can't see using this as an emergency attack to kill a tusky in stompers) to warrant a big-gun attack, and common mobs are too prevalent to use it as an emergency measure ("I really need to get rid of that fourth X on me good thing I have BLB to kill it and oh look another fourth X is here").
I don't know if BLB will ever do enough damage to "justify" remembering to cast it every so often. I do like the idea of BLB having some debilitating effects or a HoT-like dispel.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I like cannon attacks in theory, but I'm concerned they'll end up like maneuvers for me, where their timer makes me forget to use them more often than not.
I'd prefer something more like the smite pool for Paladins, where you have a set % of charges that regenerate over time.
TBH, I think the biggest weakness for cool down abilities in DR is that there is no visual indicator to tell me when it's ready again. A message like "hey you can BLB again" might work but it's not as omnipresent as combat move icons in more visual-based games. I also feel like "hard" mobs are too few and far between (and this wouldn't one shot them–I can't see using this as an emergency attack to kill a tusky in stompers) to warrant a big-gun attack, and common mobs are too prevalent to use it as an emergency measure ("I really need to get rid of that fourth X on me good thing I have BLB to kill it and oh look another fourth X is here").
I don't know if BLB will ever do enough damage to "justify" remembering to cast it every so often. I do like the idea of BLB having some debilitating effects or a HoT-like dispel.
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
FAMEBRIGHT
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 11:37 AM CST
A cooldown notice would be good, the IRE games do this for their cooldown pools. Adding the code for an actual icon would be possible but I guess unlikely with simu manpower.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
Re: Life mana Spell preps
You raise your hands in the air. You wave them like you just don't care. Somebody says, "Hey!" Somebody says, "Ho!" Somebody screams.
ALGOTHI
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 11:39 AM CST
My observations from a couple of hours of PvE testing last night.
I like the shorter target time, I was seeing around 8 seconds for a full target and that made it easier to take advantage of stuns or other CC effects.
In PvE casting SV at 30 mana, I average a kill against Young Wyverns every 5-6 casts. I was killing in one less cast with BLB @ 30 mana as the starting spell.
If I started with BLB @ 100 mana, I could kill with 2 follow up casts of SV @ 30 mana. If I started with SV @ 30 mana, I could occasionally kill the target with a followup BLB @ 100 mana, this is likely due to the first SV depleting the vitality shield allowing BLB to have its full effect.
I was seeing the HTM recovery message after ~180 seconds with the TM mastery feat and 850 TM. I need to do some testing to see if TM boosts aid in reducing the Cool down.
In my second test round late last night I was noticing I could cast BLB far before I got the HTM recovery message, sometimes even as soon as 30 seconds after casting BLB, so something seems amiss with the recovery timing.
I am OK with CD mechs on spells, the recovery messaging and the fact that you can tell you are in CD via perceive are nice touches. I was not expecting to be impressed by the 30 mana casts, but I was a little disappointed in the max mana casts.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I like the shorter target time, I was seeing around 8 seconds for a full target and that made it easier to take advantage of stuns or other CC effects.
In PvE casting SV at 30 mana, I average a kill against Young Wyverns every 5-6 casts. I was killing in one less cast with BLB @ 30 mana as the starting spell.
If I started with BLB @ 100 mana, I could kill with 2 follow up casts of SV @ 30 mana. If I started with SV @ 30 mana, I could occasionally kill the target with a followup BLB @ 100 mana, this is likely due to the first SV depleting the vitality shield allowing BLB to have its full effect.
I was seeing the HTM recovery message after ~180 seconds with the TM mastery feat and 850 TM. I need to do some testing to see if TM boosts aid in reducing the Cool down.
In my second test round late last night I was noticing I could cast BLB far before I got the HTM recovery message, sometimes even as soon as 30 seconds after casting BLB, so something seems amiss with the recovery timing.
I am OK with CD mechs on spells, the recovery messaging and the fact that you can tell you are in CD via perceive are nice touches. I was not expecting to be impressed by the 30 mana casts, but I was a little disappointed in the max mana casts.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 12:00 PM CST
Shorter target time? Nothing I did touched target time. Are others seeing this? Maybe this is an intentional difference between Test and Live?
Also, I'll put my cards on the table here: I'm in the middle of a project involving mana cost adjustments, and one on the main things you can expect from that is a fairly major reduction in man's costs for single target tm spells.
So when I say heavy TM will likely take more mana than normal TM, I mean it won't see a decrease, or less or one, not that I'm going to spike it higher than it is now.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
Also, I'll put my cards on the table here: I'm in the middle of a project involving mana cost adjustments, and one on the main things you can expect from that is a fairly major reduction in man's costs for single target tm spells.
So when I say heavy TM will likely take more mana than normal TM, I mean it won't see a decrease, or less or one, not that I'm going to spike it higher than it is now.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 12:24 PM CST
> I was killing in one less cast with BLB @ 30 mana as the starting spell.
Some of that is probably due to vitality recovery.
GABRIEL4
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 05:07 PM CST
<<Shorter target time? Nothing I did touched target time. Are others seeing this? Maybe this is an intentional difference between Test and Live?
Might have something to do with the recent changes to target time for the faster targeting feat where it used to be mostly unnoticeable due to the way the server handles timing so it was adjusted to reduce targeting time by 2 seconds instead of just 1. I would have expected the situation to have been in the other direction, however. I.e. test being shorter and prime being faster. Maybe something happened in prime to rollback the changes?
It could also be differences in feats between their prime and test characters. 8 seconds should be the target time with the feat while 10 seconds is without it, assuming it has the standard 10 second base target time and not the longer 15 second base target time of an aoe or dfa spell.
Might have something to do with the recent changes to target time for the faster targeting feat where it used to be mostly unnoticeable due to the way the server handles timing so it was adjusted to reduce targeting time by 2 seconds instead of just 1. I would have expected the situation to have been in the other direction, however. I.e. test being shorter and prime being faster. Maybe something happened in prime to rollback the changes?
It could also be differences in feats between their prime and test characters. 8 seconds should be the target time with the feat while 10 seconds is without it, assuming it has the standard 10 second base target time and not the longer 15 second base target time of an aoe or dfa spell.
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 05:44 PM CST
So my suggestions based on more prelim stuff:
1. Drop the planned cooldown to 1-2 minutes.
2. Revisit allowing BLB to ignore armor. Plan for all cannon spells to have some extra utility like this. There is only so much straight-up ++dmg you can pack into a TM spell but thinking laterally about how to apply that damage will make the spells far more appealing.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
1. Drop the planned cooldown to 1-2 minutes.
2. Revisit allowing BLB to ignore armor. Plan for all cannon spells to have some extra utility like this. There is only so much straight-up ++dmg you can pack into a TM spell but thinking laterally about how to apply that damage will make the spells far more appealing.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
DR-RAESH
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 06:20 PM CST
Right now I'm leaning towards the following for the next round of tweaks:
1) Reduced cooldown window (Not sure exactly where yet).
1a) I might actually split Heavy TM and SuperHeavy TM into two different templates, but I don't know that the game can really support enough damage to make SuperHeavy TM viable. I'll need to think on that more.
2) Slightly increase the damage.
3) It's possible Heavy TM spells will need to have secondary effects but I'm trying to avoid that as base line for now. I'm also intrigued by armor piercing spells (That's been on my to do list for awhile) but I don't think that's something you'd see baseline for Heavy TM and I don't feel it's thematically fitting or BLB.
To continue on with BLB specifically, we can review the vit/DO hit and how/if it should have a secondary strike. In general I'd like to see it play a role as an incredibly un-subtle ball of damage akin to something like Pyroblast for you WoW players.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
1) Reduced cooldown window (Not sure exactly where yet).
1a) I might actually split Heavy TM and SuperHeavy TM into two different templates, but I don't know that the game can really support enough damage to make SuperHeavy TM viable. I'll need to think on that more.
2) Slightly increase the damage.
3) It's possible Heavy TM spells will need to have secondary effects but I'm trying to avoid that as base line for now. I'm also intrigued by armor piercing spells (That's been on my to do list for awhile) but I don't think that's something you'd see baseline for Heavy TM and I don't feel it's thematically fitting or BLB.
To continue on with BLB specifically, we can review the vit/DO hit and how/if it should have a secondary strike. In general I'd like to see it play a role as an incredibly un-subtle ball of damage akin to something like Pyroblast for you WoW players.
-Raesh
"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 06:32 PM CST
The simple fact is that extra damage by itself is boring and of dubious utility in a game where armor stats and peoples' ability to resist damage is off the charts (without even bringing barriers into it) and at-level people take dozens of hits to drop. Our PvE combat system is also not set up in a way to make the ability to slightly more quickly drop a single creature once every few minutes matter in the slightest.
BLB either needs to ignore armor or some portion of armor or do something else that is interesting and useful, particularly considering the myriad drawbacks to using it, or the number of people using it will continue to be zero.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
BLB either needs to ignore armor or some portion of armor or do something else that is interesting and useful, particularly considering the myriad drawbacks to using it, or the number of people using it will continue to be zero.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 06:42 PM CST
Doublepost:
Maybe if the spell applied a short DOT that continued to either cause additional wounds or burn off vitality? That would be potentially useful depending on how much damage it was doing.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Maybe if the spell applied a short DOT that continued to either cause additional wounds or burn off vitality? That would be potentially useful depending on how much damage it was doing.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
TEVESHSZAT
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 06:47 PM CST
>>Maybe if the spell applied a short DOT that continued to either cause additional wounds or burn off vitality? That would be potentially useful depending on how much damage it was doing.
I'd definitely enjoy the secondary splatter to generate a burning effect. Blood naphtha!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
I'd definitely enjoy the secondary splatter to generate a burning effect. Blood naphtha!
Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.
ALGOTHI
Re: BLB
03/07/2016 07:23 PM CST
>Shorter target time? Nothing I did touched target time. Are others seeing this? Maybe this is an intentional difference between Test and Live?
Eh, I swear I was getting 8 second target times while my other spells were getting ~10, but checking just now all spells are ~10 so please disregard this.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Eh, I swear I was getting 8 second target times while my other spells were getting ~10, but checking just now all spells are ~10 so please disregard this.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
STAFDEN
Re: BLB
03/08/2016 11:25 AM CST
I played with this a bit this morning and compared BLB damage in both live and test... I didn't see much difference as far as damage goes.
Live:
The black ape has minor swelling and bruising around the left arm compounded by cuts and bruises about the left arm, severely swollen and bruised chest area compounded by deep cuts across the chest area.
The black ape is bleeding with discoloration in the chest and from the chest.
Test:
The black ape has minor swelling and bruising around the neck compounded by cuts and bruises about the neck, severely swollen and bruised back compounded by deep cuts across the back.
The black ape is bleeding with discoloration in the back and slightly from the back.
Live:
The black ape has minor swelling and bruising around the left arm compounded by cuts and bruises about the left arm, severely swollen and bruised chest area compounded by deep cuts across the chest area.
The black ape is bleeding with discoloration in the chest and from the chest.
Test:
The black ape has minor swelling and bruising around the neck compounded by cuts and bruises about the neck, severely swollen and bruised back compounded by deep cuts across the back.
The black ape is bleeding with discoloration in the back and slightly from the back.
ALGOTHI
Re: BLB
03/08/2016 11:53 AM CST
You are not going to see a big difference in body part damage with first casts due to the vitality shield, players/creatures with +90% vitality have high resistance to injuries. A better comparison would be to do appraise careful on the targets to see the amount of vitality damage done per cast. Better yet is to do this test with a player and report the % of vitality lost.
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Elusive
mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
YATES1
Re: BLB
03/10/2016 12:46 PM CST
I think the main issue is a perceived usefulness problem, not a realistic one.
In theory pyroblast type spells are effective, AND fun, because when you cast one you are gratified with huge damage numbers.
In Dragonrealms, we don't see vitality damage quantified in any way. The only type of feedback on the effects is delivered via wounds left on the target. Unfortunately the vitality barrier minimizes wounds, causing the spell to feel ineffective, even if it's not. I think that's the main issue with maneuvers as well. It's not that they're annoying to use, or timer is too long. It's that they FEEL like they don't do anything because the damage messaging isn't impactful and leaves no real evidence of having done better than any other attack (but has a charge up time and reuse timer).
Would it make sense to look at having Heavy TM focus on delivering more devastating wounds by bypassing some percentage of the vitality shield? That would let them effectively do lots of damage while still feel impactful and give them a unique niche not fulfilled by chain casting lower, easier to use spells.
In theory pyroblast type spells are effective, AND fun, because when you cast one you are gratified with huge damage numbers.
In Dragonrealms, we don't see vitality damage quantified in any way. The only type of feedback on the effects is delivered via wounds left on the target. Unfortunately the vitality barrier minimizes wounds, causing the spell to feel ineffective, even if it's not. I think that's the main issue with maneuvers as well. It's not that they're annoying to use, or timer is too long. It's that they FEEL like they don't do anything because the damage messaging isn't impactful and leaves no real evidence of having done better than any other attack (but has a charge up time and reuse timer).
Would it make sense to look at having Heavy TM focus on delivering more devastating wounds by bypassing some percentage of the vitality shield? That would let them effectively do lots of damage while still feel impactful and give them a unique niche not fulfilled by chain casting lower, easier to use spells.
THAYET
Re: BLB
03/10/2016 01:26 PM CST
But based on testing BLB isn't doing significant vitality damage compared to other TM spells at present either. This is true even if the person already has lowered vitality.
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com
"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs
YATES1
Re: BLB
03/10/2016 03:50 PM CST
Even if it's not, it's still missing the root issue. Whether or not the spell is highly damaging, without a visual feedback loop of some kind, it will lack impact, and therefore won't be used. That's just a staple of psychology.
