The real problem, that I think is a problem and needs to be addressed in some way, is that for whatever reason (poor RP, laziness, lore, etc.) many players refuse to see the different between a Necromancer who is constantly flaunting, harassing, and generally being a pain, and... your run of the mill philosopher that is way more interested in talking (creepily maybe) about their great work and how they may be closer to defeating death.

Don't get me wrong, the DR universe essentially turns every adventurer into a foaming at the mouth believer because of favors (we all like not dying amirite) so I understand that this complicates things. In all honesty, if favors were less tied to the 13, or there was some other competing theory for how favors worked, this might provide the less devout characters an out.

For example, friend of mine used to play a complete pile of a thief. IC troll to the nth degree. Realistically, he might not give a rip about necromancers or what they are messing with, but since his (much needed) favors came from the divine, he may have a tough time arguing with a cleric (whom he would normally ignore and/or poison) since his continued existence is reliant on the immortals continuing to grant favors.

This above problem has always been what has done it for me, and I thought about it a lot before I rolled up my necromancer because I wanted his motivation to include an escape from this level of servitude (at least in his mind.) Other adventurers cannot do this, and thus are beholden to the immortals. Immortals say murderface necromancers, so they do.

In closing, I am starting to think that without a change in how adventurers maintain their existence (or an alternative representation of how it works), the only other way to allow wiggle room from the KOS charge is for the immortals to say it (or a faction that follows them to say it.) Either that or the playerbase decides that KOS is largely boring unless it is part of a limited duration event, given that we aren't going anywhere.

Maybe I'm letting the weird mechanic of favors get me all turned around, and if so someone let me know that I'm wrong.

> In all honesty, if favors were less tied to the 13, or there was some other competing theory for how favors worked, this might provide the less devout characters an out.

In my mind, this is very easy to accomplish in a way that makes IG sense.

Here's an example.

Step 1: An NPC shows up in the alchemy society. They have an alchemic formula that grants favors without an experience requirement. They want everyone to sample the product, one per person due to limited supplies, and the person immediately drinks it to prevent mech abuse. They aren't willing to divulge the formula, being especially vague about exotic ingredients. Through various questions, necros can learn that he is too a necromancer who has completed a major part of the great work. They'll learn that the NPC has completed a major step.

Most importantly here, this is the first time normal people ( other than adventurers or explorers or estate holders ) have a chance at a limited immortality. Crowds of people now show up in the guild, begging for the formula. The NPC explains that the process to create it is long, and he can't do it himself. He begs for anyone skilled and artistic enough to take up the charge, as he is doing this for the people. He'll now teach the formula to necros who have a certain alchemy level, know the harvest ritual, knows the right pre-req spells, and has free spell slots.

Step 2: Necros can now, once or twice an RL month, create a potion that can be given away, sold, or used. The potion immediately grants a favor. There is no EXP requirement. There is no need to pray to a divine and hope for reward. This is an important milestone on their path to the great work. Mechanically, the necromancer is "infused with confidence" if they give the potion to the crowd rather than drink it themselves or sell it. In this case, the CD is reduced to a few hours (for time reasons), and the crowd gets a little smaller.

The catch is that the work is incomplete. Mastery over death still requires the death of another being (harvested material/fetish) to create. It's also a slow and laborous process, so it's not something available to EVERYONE even though ANYONE can use it. The great work continues, and no messaging needs to be changed.

Step 3: Once the crowd is quite small, another temple NPC shows up to investigate. They quickly realise that this is a necromancer, and they call heresy. The people revolt. There's a bit of RP between the crowd, the NPC, and the temple envoy. The guards show up, whisper something to the envoy, and they rush back to the temple (or the crowd outright swarms and kills them). In the end, the people's selfish desire to live forever (like the elite) drive change. The temple continues stirring up trouble, but they're bound by the will of the people.

Step 4: Aftermath. Accuse necro is now something only paladins or clerics can do, and only to a specific inquisiter in the temple. They'll take matters into their own hand in the same way thugs work, but a bit more painfully - only works if the necro currently sits in a temple/cleric guild hall or did something necroish that put them on the justice board (bad necros are still hunted). Guards will out right ignore you, and occasionally drink a potion in front of you when you accuse to them. They might even arrest you for distrubing the peace. Necromancers are now allowed in open society because the people want it that way, but the groups that hate necromancers can continue to do so. The NPC leaves town to help others, and necros can learn the favor spell from their guild leaders. Win/Win/Win.

I'm brainstorming here, but I think opening up immortality to the masses ( even if most of them couldn't afford it ) would solve quite a few problems with longevity and perception both in an IC lore way and among PCs.

>> > In all honesty, if favors were less tied to the 13, or there was some other competing theory for how favors worked, this might provide the less devout characters an out.

In my mind, this is very easy to accomplish in a way that makes IG sense.

Here's an example.

Step 1: An NPC shows up in the alchemy society. They have an alchemic formula that grants favors without an experience requirement. They want everyone to sample the product, one per person due to limited supplies, and the person immediately drinks it to prevent mech abuse. They aren't willing to divulge the formula, being especially vague about exotic ingredients. Through various questions, necros can learn that he is too a necromancer who has completed a major part of the great work. They'll learn that the NPC has completed a major step.

Most importantly here, this is the first time normal people ( other than adventurers or explorers or estate holders ) have a chance at a limited immortality. Crowds of people now show up in the guild, begging for the formula. The NPC explains that the process to create it is long, and he can't do it himself. He begs for anyone skilled and artistic enough to take up the charge, as he is doing this for the people. He'll now teach the formula to necros who have a certain alchemy level, know the harvest ritual, knows the right pre-req spells, and has free spell slots.

Step 2: Necros can now, once or twice an RL month, create a potion that can be given away, sold, or used. The potion immediately grants a favor. There is no EXP requirement. There is no need to pray to a divine and hope for reward. This is an important milestone on their path to the great work. Mechanically, the necromancer is "infused with confidence" if they give the potion to the crowd rather than drink it themselves or sell it. In this case, the CD is reduced to a few hours (for time reasons), and the crowd gets a little smaller.

The catch is that the work is incomplete. Mastery over death still requires the death of another being (harvested material/fetish) to create. It's also a slow and laborous process, so it's not something available to EVERYONE even though ANYONE can use it. The great work continues, and no messaging needs to be changed.

Step 3: Once the crowd is quite small, another temple NPC shows up to investigate. They quickly realise that this is a necromancer, and they call heresy. The people revolt. There's a bit of RP between the crowd, the NPC, and the temple envoy. The guards show up, whisper something to the envoy, and they rush back to the temple (or the crowd outright swarms and kills them). In the end, the people's selfish desire to live forever (like the elite) drive change. The temple continues stirring up trouble, but they're bound by the will of the people.

Step 4: Aftermath. Accuse necro is now something only paladins or clerics can do, and only to a specific inquisiter in the temple. They'll take matters into their own hand in the same way thugs work, but a bit more painfully - only works if the necro currently sits in a temple/cleric guild hall or did something necroish that put them on the justice board (bad necros are still hunted). Guards will out right ignore you, and occasionally drink a potion in front of you when you accuse to them. They might even arrest you for distrubing the peace. Necromancers are now allowed in open society because the people want it that way, but the groups that hate necromancers can continue to do so. The NPC leaves town to help others, and necros can learn the favor spell from their guild leaders. Win/Win/Win.

I'm brainstorming here, but I think opening up immortality to the masses ( even if most of them couldn't afford it ) would solve quite a few problems with longevity and perception both in an IC lore way and among PCs. <<

I have been reading this thread but not answering it as after I made that silly post about just making new groups, and then finally getting it into my head how silly the thought was. I honestly did not understand how bad it was being outed.

All I can say about this post that I quoted is please see this done. Whoever posted this could just as easily been watching how I am playing my character. Literally at circle 30th I know REI because it is suppose to give a boost to alchemy skill so for RP reasons I felt it was a must. With only about 110 in augmentation not seeing much effect but still I do not regret the choice. I have over 200 in alchemy and 340 in outdoorsmanship, at circle 30th (have the skill to circle 33rd, but have not talked to the right people about fixing that). I am not sure this is the answer but darn would I be one happy necromancer if this ever happened. On a less personal level I do like the idea.

I think people react to necros because it is easy and lazy. Especilly if they want to pvp.

The lore says they are bad so they have justification to harass someone. Especially if it is some low level character. Has very little to do with any actual RP or trying to make the community more interesting, 9 times out of 10. (There are exceptions)

Regardless of how it is done.. necros should get the option to be closed to pvp. (With same restrictions to abilities locking them open if they do something bad.) And players reactions in general would follow that of gmnpcs. If someonr is trying to go after necros and is constantly being called out for it in events.. they will learn quickly not to do it. That will probably be the biggest carrot and stick cause the bulk players of thi game do whatever they can go suck up to gmnpcs.

>>a gmnpc, even one like meraud or vorclaf rolling into crossings and saying "leave brittany and necros alone, ok? they are ok now" would fail to bring about a homogeneous reaction to necromancers.

This would be a good point if we were dealing with real people with real feelings and not imaginary avatars, but this just isn't the case.

No one who plays DR actually suffered under Necromancy any more or less than they suffered under any other global event with lots of invasions, players can adjust.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

>>a gmnpc, even one like meraud or vorclaf rolling into crossings and saying "leave brittany and necros alone, ok? they are ok now" would fail to bring about a homogeneous reaction to necromancers.<<

Not homogeneous, sure, but it doesn't have to be homogeneous to be effective. The event just has to provide some cover to people or organizations who want to allow necros to participate.


Mazrian

>I think people react to necros because it is easy and lazy. Especilly if they want to pvp.

Just a point of clarification - I think aside from a few exceptions, in Dragonrealms, the 'key to winning in pvp' is not 'what guild are you', but 'how old is your character'. There is no 'pvp guild', and moooooooostly every guild has strengths and weaknesses they bring to a PvP competition, which are largely ignored once you get into deeper rank discrepencies.

If anything, rolling a Necromancer because you want to PvP means you're in the mood to lose, a lot, but not because you're a Necromancer, but rather, because you're a young character.

>>As far as I understand, and as far as I intend, nobody is asking for or expecting persecution to go away. Rather, the question is can something, both plot wise and mechanically, be done to make the persecution element less omnipresent. My conception of things going forward is to try and focus it less on "individual is a Necromancer" and more "individual is doing Necromancer-stuff openly."<< Armifer

I've been maining a Necro since the guild came out and while I am sad that life got in the way of well laid plans, I think this kind of movement would go a long way to rejuvenating the guild.

> but it was time to move on.

Pretty much the point of the entire thread.

I've primarily played a new Necro since I came back from a ~15 year hiatus last fall. I play my old PCs a little bit but my Necro has gotten 90% of my playtime. I'm mid-50s circle at this point and not Forsaken yet, so I'm not speaking from anywhere near endgame perspective, though I have started to feel the RP-less boredom creep in.

TBH I've seen a lot of positive steps to make Necros more playable just in this last year. One of the main concerns I had was I would be unable to get and keep cool loot because I'd be graverobbed into oblivion. This hasn't happened, and CRE all but eliminates that in theory if you're not stupid and going out again before the timer's up. (I don't actually have CRE yet, but this is what I'm shooting for before I'm "out", for these reasons.) Hard mode or not, being continuously graverobbed and having unique/cool items (such as things I've paid real $$ for via Duskruin, Ulf'Hara Ruins, etc.) stolen from me is not an aspect of play I'm interested in. That's my only "hard limit".

That said, I am against retconning and removing all teeth from DO and SO. I would much rather see ways implemented to uniquely skirt those rules with effort, time, money (in-game, not Simucoin), roleplay, and some small amount of cooperation.

For example, I've read Armifer (I believe) somewhere stating that Book and the Philosophers are not well connected, organized, or political enough (i'm poorly paraphrasing my recollection) to set up some kind of network to approximate a bank or vault or crafting societies in the guild.. but how is it that some some incredibly unscrupulous and well-guarded Trader doesn't have some roving shadowy caravan that we can pay some equally-unscrupulous Thief for the current whereabouts of, to find, pay usury-level fees to, all to be able to access town services while SO is peaked. Whether NPC (to improve general Necro life satisfaction), or via PC where this could potentially open opportunities for RP and interaction between Traders<->Necros, between Traders<->anyone they wish to hire to guard them, Necros<->Thieves/Bards (who the heck is RUMOR for?... to find the NPC Trader's location), and Traders+Guards<->Inquisiton... there are a lot of possibilities.

[I'm not convinced people wouldn't just roll Trader alts, but it's not like you can't access town services with alts as-is. The question is what you can do with your main if you are committed to playing within the system as intended.]

Bottom-line.. ret-conning isn't needed to open up RP to Necros. Mechanics supporting people with questionable morals (Traders and Thieves being prime candidates) to cooperate with Necros at their own peril (and for their own gain) are a distinct possibility, however.

Though I wouldn't shake a stick at a Risen vault. :)

>That said, I am against retconning and removing all teeth from DO and SO.

DO is pretty easily managed unless you go super crazy and I feel like so few people actually use the secret in our Ilithi guildhall.

SO could use some help I think. I cast 3 spells in justice last week (and actually stopped fighting during an RP event because I saw the two SO charges from the first two spells) and I'm still working off the SO for it. Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of SO and the idea but it seems to go from 0 to BAM too quick. That is always the main thing that keeps me away from most events, RP situations, etc.

I actively tried to get smote in Test and couldn't do it. I don't know how people manage to do it by accident.

I do wish DO did more in general beyond just shutting things off at certain circles. Really you spend most of the time at or near the floor for your circle unless you go really hogwild or get married from what I've seen. It'd be neat if having higher DO afforded certain perks or something.

SO...I think it's too fast at both ends. You get a lot of it too quickly and then it goes away too quickly. It would be nice if it was a slower burn on both ends IMO.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

There's not much to say to it except that the focus needs to be on less dev-intensive and more story-driven solutions. Implementing a bunch of new systems won't help the problems being raised in this thread. As you point out, they'd also be completely obsoleted with alts, which most of the pantsless wonders that ride the high end of the SO spiral already use.

SO and losing access to town services isn't the problem for most of us. It happens once in a blue moon and is incredibly avoidable. SO is not the problem.

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

Mechanical incentives would help mainly with interacting with those who have a casual at best investment in the narrative of the game, which is an area that doesn't need a ton of help frankly. Because we're talking about interaction with the segments of the community who are presumably more invested in the fiction than the randos at the Ranger Guild that ask their buddy to send them a pidgeon and ask if anyone else is fogging. That's why telling the story becomes important, because the people invested in that story now have a reason to budge away from "well, I guess we should kill them/drive them out on sight because there is literally no reason anyone sane would ever want to do anything else." (Or not, as is their preference. But at least they get to reasonably have a preference within the narrative as written.)

---

Thayet
@thayelf // http://thayette.tumblr.com

"But you must know that if corruption is powerful enough, it's not corruption at all — it's law. Unspoken, unwritten, but law." — Robert Jackson Bennett, City of Stairs

I don't want to be an exp/coin generator.

I just want to be able to interact with people and not have the only interaction based around the idea that as a necro, I should be hunted and killed immediately without any interaction or RP or even a quick hello to see if I am polite and nice (if crazy). Because that is all the lore that matters to most of the general population of this game. It is the easy and boring route. And people that want to PvP use it as an easy way to force PvP upon necros.

More systems and all that would be great... but ideally it would come after redeemed/lich/transcended (and I REALLY hope that lich and transcended are different paths.. I do not want to have to become a lich to become a transcended.) and Risen, which then after those two systems come out... anything else is just gravy. (I think Risen has more work done on it though so it is probably coming next)

One of the ways I can see necros going that might help their place in the community.. is to allow for better progression and choices.

I asked a while back about a way to stay unsullied.. all the way to transcended. I still think that would be a fantastic path. It makes use of some of the abilties(like self-healing, maybe constructs).. but limits a lot, notably never being able to use SRE or CRE/Zombies/Risen.. and could eventually ease the path into transcended which might then be harder to reach if you go from redeemed. (harder based upon having to do extra quests or something to prove you really are worthy)

If that was allowed.. it would be perhaps easier for some people to see necros as not so black and white. SOME might be bad.. but some might just be flirting with darkness.

like ideally what I would love to see...


level 0 necro (unsullied) >> level 50 unsullied (never used zombies or SRE, etc) >> Level 150 Transcended(without all the quests, only possibly if unsullied always.)

level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Redeemed(after lots of redeeming quests) >> Level 150 Transcended (after a quest series to prove worthiness after your dark past)

level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Redeemed(after lots of redeeming quests) >> Level anytime after 100 Lich (can fall to the darkside again but then can't change back ever)

level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Lich(can't change from lich ever)


(had an awesome chart all typed out but these forums suck sooooo much :( )

It might not solve all the issues we have been talking about... or maybe any.. (I really think that some GMNPCs need to turn on the hounds and sacrifice a few of the theren people to their gods for being overzealous and that will probably be the easiest way to fix it or at least turn it down) but I think this might help long term.

>>I'll note with some irony that this response is much akin to a lot of my experience trying to RP since I returned: attention only to negate something, and completely ignoring all other ideas and suggestions presented.

On the other side of the coin, some people hate it posters make point by point responses, or don't want to see other things get responded/reiterated another time. Can't please everyone.

>>Is that really the case, because that's hillarious.

Necros can't normally use kiss roses unless they do a particular thing in a particular place that annoys the gods almost as much as raising the undead a second time.

Go figure.

---

Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

I'm seeing a lot of people asking for necromancers to get acceptable RP, and to not be killed on sight. I don't think anything the game does is really going to change that. I also think that there ARE people out there, like my own characters who do talk with necromancers and don't jump to the conclusion of killing them. I've interacted with some of the people in this thread and haven't even once threatened to kill them. Perhaps the problem isn't completely on the non necromancer players. Sometimes the people involved have acted in ways that turn people off from roleplaying with them. I'd guess that some people avoiding certain people for OOC reasons as well, including but not limited to people being rude or mean to the point of harassment. If you want more RP opportunities maybe it should start small and put some effort into it.

>>> level 0 necro (unsullied) >> level 50 unsullied (never used zombies or SRE, etc) >> Level 150 Transcended(without all the quests, only possibly if unsullied always.)

>>> level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Redeemed(after lots of redeeming quests) >> Level 150 Transcended (after a quest series to prove worthiness after your dark past)

>>> level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Redeemed(after lots of redeeming quests) >> Level anytime after 100 Lich (can fall to the darkside again but then can't change back ever)

>>> level 0 necro (unsullied) >> Level 50 sullied >> Level 100 Lich(can't change from lich ever)

Isn't redeemed a different path than transcendence? My understanding was that necros could choose to be a philosopher and aspire to transcendence, become redeemed and abandon the high sorcery aspects of necromancy and gain favours like everyone else or embrace the dark side and eventually become a rich.

And this thread is over.



Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor

If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.