I miss steelstar and crystal spike

Good points. I'd just rather see a spell adjusted than have it taken out of the book. And I know for a fact people would not be pissed about having the option of steelstar. They would just compare it to other spells that only some people use that others consider not worth the effort. And it would be the equivilent to throwing knives for the showy kill. Sure you wouldn't be able to use it at level in a pvp situation always, but its perfect for when you are sending a message or are in public. The option being there wouldn't hurt a soul and would add an insanely cool and fun way to kill invasion trash. And there are of course mages who keep their weapon skills up as close as they can to TM, and for them it would probably be a solid tactic to use in conjunction with dazzle.

And as for shadow web going away, its sad to think of these lines being drawn that make it necessary to gut a guild of spells. That spell was not only amazing for debilitation, it was also another huge chunk of style that was cut out without a replacement for it. I earned criminal titles casting shadow web in each province. There is also Ripple that was taken out instead of redesigned. Original content creators were not afraid to make spells awesome because its just a game. Other guilds can have their own awesome spells. Anyone losing sleep over another guild being too cool should just roll one. Sometimes you have to ask yourself what does the "style" say and not go strictly by if the guild is considered tertiary in an area like AOE. A giant mass of living shadow is definitely a spell a moon mage would create. And oddly enough it was created to be for our guild, then just given new messaging for another guild. Its not like necromancers could just have a copy cat of a spell we had like they have for so many others. The real issue is that there was honestly no good reason to take out all of those awesome spells. It was a nerf. To both the guilds style and capability.


"An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells; If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else. No! you won't 'eed nothin' else"

>Seriously. I have always wondered why they were ever removed along with Shadow Web

I wasn't involved in the decision at the time (I came on board as planning for Magic 3.0 was already in the works), but I can take a stab at these.

AoE isn't something that Moon Mages are supposed to be good at and this didn't make the initial cut for 3.0 was was always planned to return. The problem is that the description for it was super vague to picture as an actual useful spell doing something unique (Mind Shout fills a lot of the same niche).

I know exactly what I want to do to bring this spell back but... well, time.

>>the old TV

The effect and the lore had a total mismatch. The MM Advocate at the time was given a decision between changing the theme behind the spell and keeping it's effect or changing the effect to match the theme. They chose the second, and I ended up being the one to write that spell (It was actually one of my first spells IIRC).

There's no inherent reason Moon Mages couldn't get the old version of TV back in a new lore wrapper - the effect is certainly within their wheelhouse.

>>and the old interaction between dazzle and moonblades etc.

(Assuming you mean Steelstar) Product of the Lethal Spell need TM mandate. Neither was a TM spell and there wasn't really any proper skill checks involved.

>>I'm even fairly certain Shadow web was given new messaging and given to Necromancer spell book in the form of Viscous Solution.

VS doesn't act anything like the old shadow web and as far as I know shares no code beyond the basic spell template every spell shares. The old shadow web (Which wasn't even the FIRST shadow web... heck, the spell started life as shadow tend, something the Adan'f were supposed to use but don't really) was a weird pulsing thing in a room.

>>And the fact that every moon mage would love the return of both steelstar and old crystal spike means very little to the powers that be.

Steelstar is unlikely to return (It and Heavy Moonblade were all rolled into the same basic spell back when Shape Moonblade came to me).

Crystal Spike as many of you know has been on the table for awhile (It didn't make the initial cut in 3.0 since it doesn't fit with Moon Mage themes at all. The old version was much more of a Warrior Mage spell and it either needed a new theme or to become a sorcery). I have a functional version of it in Dev. (And have had for awhile, it was a prototype for some new spell mechanics that we're using now). What it lacks is messaging, and the associated Stellar quest is in the works still. I tinker with it time to time but I'll admit it's not a high priority project.

TM messaging is very hard and time consuming to write and somehow half of the pre 3.0 crystal spike's messaging has gone missing as well. Not that that messaging was actually very useful as I tried to revamp it.

>90% of the guild's development has been on teleologic spellbook for awhile now.

Hmm. Since I took over working on the Moon Mage, just off the cuff of major developments (Not counting bug fixes, minor tweaks and adjustments, etc):

Rewrote the entire prediction system and several tools (Yes, I still owe you Tokka and Bowls. Believe me, I'm sorry about that.)
Added several new abilities to interact with predictions
Added several new power perception abilities
Wrote the following spells
--Machinist's Touch
--Artificer's Eye
--Unleash (Okay, I just brought that one back from the dead)
--Destiny Cipher
--Empower Moonblade (not my code)
--Braun's Conjecture
--Read the Ripples
--Tezirah's Veil (rewrite)
--Sovereign Destiny
Gutted and rewrote several other spells
Redid spell affinities
Rewrote planets and the heavens (... lightly)

So, that's two Teleologic Spells vs everything else on that list. And both of those were done in 2012. I think we have very different definitions of 90%.

>What is sorcery actually when probably 90% or more of all magic users train it regularly?

This is a great disappointment of mine and is why you've seen me continually make sorcery more punitive (Though, I hope, also more fair and playable) and released several powerful Moon Mage spells that do not play nicely with sorcery in order to create more of an actual mechanical choice between using sorcery and not.

>There is also Ripple that was taken out instead of redesigned.

Ripple was awesome. It also basically did two things well, and nothing else:

1) Destroy items, forever.
2) Ruin invasions in a way that didn't reward the caster in any way.

Neither of these are things we want to promote. I have plans somewhere to bring back a balanced version of ripple but like so many things - my plans far exceed my available time.

>>Push aside this simple confining notion that it must inherently be a non combat guild

... no one is saying non combat guild. If that was really the goal then I best get to deleting a bunch more spells.

All I said is that the guild is weapons tert and creating powerful magic weapons isn't something that should really be in it's wheelhouse. Moon Mages have historically had a huge slice of the pie and we can't cover all their weaknesses with magic or magic ends up an uber skill set and everyone else just pales in comparison. (That state of development might sound familiar to some of you who've been around a very long time).

Also, most of what Skaen is saying is true - I wrote my reply before getting to his posts.

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things

>>Hopefully this explicitly means Craft Enchanting gaharzen ha ha. <3

Sure. Why not. Welcome to 2017?

-Raesh

"It was wise enough to know itself, and brave enough to BE itself, and wild enough to change itself while somehow staying altogether true." ― The Slow Regard of Silent Things

>>Crystal Spike as many of you know has been on the table for awhile (It didn't make the initial cut in 3.0 since it doesn't fit with Moon Mage themes at all. The old version was much more of a Warrior Mage spell and it either needed a new theme or to become a sorcery).

Crystal Spike was well within the theme of the crystal hand monks. It along with clarify gem fit into the crystallomancy area that was completely cut out of the books. Now my Monk has about 4-5 titles dealing with crystallomancy but has no spells left that match them. It was very much within the ideologies of the martial style of the monks as well, it mimicked a feint originally that would unbalance the target. Balance is another thing the monks deal with both as a philosophy of balance and attunement to the moons, and also as a martial form of self perfection. Clarify Gem matched this philosophy of purifying yourself to achieve perfection, the removing of your flaws.

I did love the new messaging for the new incarnation of CRS I saw on test, but the old spell was amazing both in practice and in messaging too. And it was the only spell aside from Starlight Sphere you could use well in conjunction with debilitation. You could cast the spike, use the delay it produced to cast a dazzle or mental blast and the spike would then fire on its own. The spike had a chance to forgo the feint and attack twice as well. I killed Pevon two times with one cast of crystal spike, as his spiteful rebirth resurrected him just in time to receive the second blast form the spike.

I would more likely believe it was considered too powerful than it was not in theme.



"An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells; If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else. No! you won't 'eed nothin' else"

I used perfect logic and reasoning to explain how you are incorrect. I don't feel like you should be so defensive unless I am right anyway.

"An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells; If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else. No! you won't 'eed nothin' else"

I guess perception is everything. Its clear we see things in a different light. Thanks for the responses, hopefully I didn't ruffle too many feathers.



"An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells; If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else. No! you won't 'eed nothin' else"

The old version couldn't be targetted. As a result, you couldn't instant prep it like a normal TM spell (Which all TM spells do in 3.0 now), but it had a very short prep time to compensate (5 seconds IIRC - and you could usually snap cast before then without suffering the accuracy penalty you suffer for not waiting for full target). The new version retains those traits.

However, you're leaving off several downsides to this version as you try and paint it as the most powerful spell ever.

1) There was still a delay after casting until it hits (This is still in the new version).
2) If your target leaves the room your spell does nothing. (This is also still in the new version... though I think I might have made it try and select a new target. It's been too long since I've been in the code to be sure.)
3) It couldn't benefit from targetting. Overall the spell was notably less accurate because of this. (Again, still in the new version).

Overall the spell was very powerful for PvE targets that were within your skill range or that you were able to disable first with other spells. I certainly used it on my Moon Mage extensively. But let's not pretend like it didn't have significant drawbacks. PD was the go to spell for PvP and anything on the edge of your skill level. They filled different niches.

Either way, my comment about the relative power level between the two versions are purely on a single cast vs single cast comparison.

Beyond that, I'm done with this discussion - if you don't believe what I tell you at face value then there's no value in my responding.

-Raesh

"Sometimes, I worry that I’m not the hero everyone thinks I am..." - Mistborn

>>However, you're leaving off several downsides to this version as you try and paint it as the most powerful spell ever.

Leaving the room was the only way to survive. And if that wasn't in place then it would have been easily the most powerful TM ever. It probably already was even with that limitation just because of the targeting bug that allowed instant prep. It was the spell I killed players with hundreds more ranks than me in combats on a regular basis in 2.0. Just knowing that the delay will still be present in the new version gives me hope that the spell will be worthy of its predecessor. I'm glad you are keeping true to the aspects that made CRS what it was. It was a major loss and honestly the remake has been over due. It was a sect spell, it was a gap filler and it was just plain awesome. I don't feel bad about being passionate about the game or guild. Like the rest of you I have invested years of time into the game and its near to my heart. DR is a unique drug, and I will always love it. I just feel there were bad decisions made on the direction of the guilds magic as most of my favorite spells were removed without being replaced for reasons that were arbitrary.

Making spells like moonblade into a cambrinth is the sort of direction I am talking about. Like any guild needs that. There are 1000s of cambrinth in game that don't require to be cast and can be used while worn. Sure it might be neat sounding but honestly its redundant and a waste of a spell slot. What problem does it fix? Isn't magic supposed to make life easier? That will at best make a convoluted version of cambrinth. we just had mana costs reduced. Braun's Conjecture is nothing more than another step to take in already convoluted and buggy buff system. Read the Ripples was actually useful because it helped with the main limitation of said system. I just don't understand why there seems to be this directive with the lunar magic spell book to tame it down.

The style I grew to love of this guild was increased risk for increased reward. That has totally gone to the wayside apparently. What the guild needs is magic with a bite. I'd rather see anything than another spell that does nothing at all but aid something you can already do just fine without it. We don't need extra spells to use cambrinth, we don't need extra spells to cast moongate and make predictions. Those spells should be just fine on their own. Why does it take 2 spells or skills to do one thing how it ought to be? Its saddening to see this watered down, tamed version of lunar magic where adding extra steps is a focus. It should be dazzling and dangerous, able to incinerate the caster if they make a mis step, and it should be strong. It should also work just fine on its own without crutch spells to hold it up. Were a primary casting guild but there is little about our magic anymore that screams primary magic.



I too will withdraw for now, hopefully this leaves something to be thought about and considered.


I like to think these forums serve a purpose and I use them as such to promote critical thinking and plant seeds hoping to cause positive changes. If anything we can use these forums to get the ball rolling.








"An' I'm learnin' 'ere in London what the ten-year soldier tells; If you've 'eard the East a-callin', you won't never 'eed naught else. No! you won't 'eed nothin' else"

>Braun's Conjecture is nothing more than another step to take in already convoluted and buggy buff system. Read the Ripples was actually useful because it helped with the main limitation of said system.

RTR is a prediction game changer but the holy trinity of BC, DC and RTR is what makes prediction viable.

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https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page

>>>> Too bad prediction couldn't be viable on its own as a guild special ability without requiring three spells.

The system is perfectly fine on its' own. I used to run around with full pools and empty whatever pools were related to my constellation of choice whenever I wanted to train. Otherwise I always had the ability to buff whatever skill I wanted. If I missed I even had TF to fix it.

DC helped a bit and made it so I didn't have to suffer from being in a guild without a functional tool. I am still not sure that BC is really worth the spell slots. RTR was a game changer only insofar as my training and tool bonding strategy changed. Now I empty all my pools in an attempt to bond my tool of choice and then fill them back up in 10 minutes with RTR. If I really cared I could even drain them sequentially to keep my astrology learning maximized.

As far as I am concerned they are great spells but can be easily skipped if you want the slots for something else.

BC allows you much more control over narrow focus predictions - aiming all 5 pools at a single skillset or 2 (or more opportunities to turn that inopportune curse). The difference in pool loss for align transmogrify alone makes it worth the slots imo. I value BC over DC.

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https://elanthipedia.play.net/Main_Page

>>AoE isn't something that Moon Mages are supposed to be good at and this didn't make the initial cut for 3.0 was was always planned to return. The problem is that the description for it was super vague to picture as an actual useful spell doing something unique (Mind Shout fills a lot of the same niche).

any chance you could take a look at use stats for MS and reconsider reclassing it as a non "heavy debil" type spell?

Damian, a voice from the distant and long-forgotten past.
AIM:DamianDR