Just returned after a long break, and I'm loving the new changes with 3.0 and 3.1. I feel that a lot of the flaws in spell design across multiple guilds have been resolved and I like how the new spell types interact with each other.
My only gripe is that moon mage spells hit as hard as a wet noodle. I realize the days of snap casting spells are gone. But it takes forever to kill one mob with spells now. This is after trying many different things-- tkt vs single target (pd, do), full prep vs snap cast, high mana vs low mana, jabbing for full balance/position before casting. Even something that is so easy that it no longer teaches TM, it still takes several casts to kill. I have 100 in every stat that might remotely be related to spell damage-- int, wisdom, disc, agility, reflex.
I realize things take a bit more effort across the board to kill these days, but I feel my barbarian is still decently strong. I'm back-training bows on my moon mage (and thank goodness for missile mastery), but as weapon tertiary, it will be a year or two to catch up on it minimum. Even my empath feels more effective at killing than my moon mage. This is without even an avenger because TM is too far behind for the avenger to be useful yet (I relied on charisma and empathy skill to hunt with the avenger before). The kills solely come from manipulating one creature, and casting Nissa's Binding. I'd imagine the kill rate will be higher once I have the skill for an avenger and two mobs.
I realize that balance in pvp is a tricky thing, because moon mages already have some awesome debilitation spells in their toolkit. But it would be nice if the GMs could take another look at moon mage spell damage output relative to weapons. It would be nice to have it competitive with weapons at later ranks (magic vs weapons seems fine on my lowbie characters). Once my bow catches up, I feel that TM will be just there for the TDPs and not really useful for anything else.
Overall TM just doesn't feel fun anymore on a moon mage.
It would be a great feeling of satisfaction if we could ramp up a spell with an insane amount of harness, and then release it to the glorious snap of cambrinth, and watch a target get obliterated. It wouldn't be sustainable due to mana, but it would pander to my philosophy of magical power and make me cackle inside. It would be fun. Nowadays I just spend a huge amount of mana, just to do a portion of what weapons could have done for free.
I guess the issue to why weapons still feel nice is that they are force multipliers-- you get a huge bonus with a forged weapon over a store bought one. Bows have two-- fletched arrows and capped bows. Maybe moon mages (and war mages) could get staves that increase a school of magic (maybe that's the idea behind upcoming enchanting foci?)
ENFO13
ILLIENA
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:03 AM CDT
> My only gripe is that moon mage spells hit as hard as a wet noodle.
All TM spells run through the same code. So PD does puncture/impact while Air Lash does slice/impact, but otherwise they put out the same damage numbers.
> Maybe moon mages (and war mages) could get staves that increase a school of magic (maybe that's the idea behind upcoming enchanting foci?)
TM foci are planned, which will heighten TM damage. I don't expect them to be guild-locked.
All TM spells run through the same code. So PD does puncture/impact while Air Lash does slice/impact, but otherwise they put out the same damage numbers.
> Maybe moon mages (and war mages) could get staves that increase a school of magic (maybe that's the idea behind upcoming enchanting foci?)
TM foci are planned, which will heighten TM damage. I don't expect them to be guild-locked.
ENFO13
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:12 AM CDT
>All TM spells run through the same code. So PD does puncture/impact while Air Lash does slice/impact, but otherwise they put out the same damage numbers.
Right, but standardization is just for the tier1 spells? I'd imagine war mages would use their more advanced targeted spells, while moon mages no longer have an advanced targeted single target spell. PD used to fill that role but now it seems it's been downgraded. I don't have a war mage so I don't know how the nice spells feel in terms of damage on their end.
>TM foci are planned, which will heighten TM damage. I don't expect them to be guild-locked.
Yeah they shouldn't be guild-locked. I only mentioned moon mages and war mages (and I should have mentioned clerics) as we are most likely to have TM trained as our primary method of damage since it's a primary skill set. Any guild (e.g. rangers) should be able to use hypothetical TM damage boosting staves if they have the ranks trained (like we can use the nice and shiny bows).
ILLIENA
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:25 AM CDT
> Right, but standardization is just for the tier1 spells? I'd imagine war mages would use their more advanced targeted spells, while moon mages no longer have an advanced targeted single target spell. PD used to fill that role but now it seems it's been downgraded.
The TM damage code doesn't care about spell tier. So Burn (single target DFA, basic) does the same damage as Lightning Bolt (single target DFA, advanced). Similarly, TKS (AoE, advanced) and Shockwave (AoE, esoteric). Advanced and esoteric TM spells tend to have special effects tacked on, like Shockwave's knockback, but they don't do more damage. Moon mage TM spells are low tier because fancy riders on TM spells isn't really a moon mage thing.
The TM damage code doesn't care about spell tier. So Burn (single target DFA, basic) does the same damage as Lightning Bolt (single target DFA, advanced). Similarly, TKS (AoE, advanced) and Shockwave (AoE, esoteric). Advanced and esoteric TM spells tend to have special effects tacked on, like Shockwave's knockback, but they don't do more damage. Moon mage TM spells are low tier because fancy riders on TM spells isn't really a moon mage thing.
ILLIENA
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:37 AM CDT
By the way, I'm not saying you don't have a valid complaint, just that the nature of your complaint is different from what you're saying. It's not "Moon mage TM is too weak", it's "TM is too weak compared to weapons". I believe a number of people have expressed this sentiment; I don't have an opinion, since I don't have much experience with normal TM (I just turn on a TM cyclic while I hunt).
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:38 AM CDT
The standardization of TM damage cannot be overstated. To my recollection, there is only one spell in the game (Blood Burst) that is currently doing extra single-target damage beyond the template it fits in. There is also no template that is designed to be more or less desirable than the other templates.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 06:48 AM CDT
Actually, let's go a bit deeper than my initial response.
There's two things we can talk about, Moon Mage TM and the TM system writ large.
Moon Mage TM is by design is mostly bread and butter. It's competent, it's flashy, but it's not a major focus of the guild. Moon Mages are perfectly capable of blasting someone's head off, but they're not going to get as large of a range of quirky TM that Warrior Mages get.
System wise, TM is not where we want it to be. It stays this way largely because there is another magic project we need to finish first (the barrier review). We have Plans, but it's going to be awhile before the dev work-hours are there to make it a reality.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
There's two things we can talk about, Moon Mage TM and the TM system writ large.
Moon Mage TM is by design is mostly bread and butter. It's competent, it's flashy, but it's not a major focus of the guild. Moon Mages are perfectly capable of blasting someone's head off, but they're not going to get as large of a range of quirky TM that Warrior Mages get.
System wise, TM is not where we want it to be. It stays this way largely because there is another magic project we need to finish first (the barrier review). We have Plans, but it's going to be awhile before the dev work-hours are there to make it a reality.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Calvino Italo
DR-RAESH
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 10:35 AM CDT
>>Moon Mage TM is by design is mostly bread and butter. It's competent, it's flashy, but it's not a major focus of the guild. Moon Mages are perfectly capable of blasting someone's head off, but they're not going to get as large of a range of quirky TM that Warrior Mages get.
While this is true, I think it'll feel better once we beat TKT with a shovel again since I don't think anyone is happy with the current form and get "Crystal Spike" released again. (It's coming back under a different name).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
While this is true, I think it'll feel better once we beat TKT with a shovel again since I don't think anyone is happy with the current form and get "Crystal Spike" released again. (It's coming back under a different name).
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DAMIAN98
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 10:39 AM CDT
>While this is true, I think it'll feel better once we beat TKT with a shovel again since I don't think anyone is happy with the current form and get "Crystal Spike" released again. (It's coming back under a different name).
What are the thoughts for revising TKT may I ask?
And Yay Crystal Spike!!!
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
What are the thoughts for revising TKT may I ask?
And Yay Crystal Spike!!!
Mmmmm...pie
Don't forget to vote:
http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
MMMMFUDGE
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 10:51 AM CDT
It seems to me that with your stats and so I assume skill, our TM spells should be hitting harder "than a wet noodle" for you - especially on critters that don't even teach you TM. You mentioned trying things like full prep, higher mana, jabbing for position, etc. I just want to make sure you are actually TARGETING the spell, and even waiting for full target spell formation.
When the magic system and TM spells first changed, I couldn't kill a thing with my TM spells. It was because I was used to just prepping the spell and casting, I never actually targetted a critter. After the changes, it really is necessary to target a spell in order for it to work well. Once I started using TARGET properly, our spells (particularly PD) kill well for me in only a couple casts without too much mana.
It's a simple thing but it's a mistake I made right off the bat, so just wanted to throw that out there in case you might be doing the same. There's even a new command now TARGET <spell> <mana> in order to bypass having to PREP <spell> and then TARGET it.
Hope this helps, but if not then nevermind me! It's something that came to my mind because at first I couldn't kill anything with my TM spells either.
Aluriaz
When the magic system and TM spells first changed, I couldn't kill a thing with my TM spells. It was because I was used to just prepping the spell and casting, I never actually targetted a critter. After the changes, it really is necessary to target a spell in order for it to work well. Once I started using TARGET properly, our spells (particularly PD) kill well for me in only a couple casts without too much mana.
It's a simple thing but it's a mistake I made right off the bat, so just wanted to throw that out there in case you might be doing the same. There's even a new command now TARGET <spell> <mana> in order to bypass having to PREP <spell> and then TARGET it.
Hope this helps, but if not then nevermind me! It's something that came to my mind because at first I couldn't kill anything with my TM spells either.
Aluriaz
VOLCANUS
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 11:02 AM CDT
> our TM spells should be hitting harder "than a wet noodle" for you - especially on critters that don't even teach you TM.
That's something that should probably be clarified. Is this on critters, people, or in PvP with someone wearing capped armor/equivalent stats/+barriers?
ROBERTDH
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 12:45 PM CDT
>> Right, but standardization is just for the tier1 spells? I'd imagine war mages would use their more advanced targeted spells, while moon mages no longer have an advanced targeted single target spell. PD used to fill that role but now it seems it's been downgraded.
>The TM damage code doesn't care about spell tier.
I'd go farther and emphasize that magic doesn't particularly care about spell tier anymore. There's not really such a thing as a 'more advanced' TM spell, especially since TM experience doesn't care about spell difficulty. The increased difficulty largely covers extra features like DFA, AOE, knockback, cyclics.
Don't open with full-power TM spells (IE, don't take your entire attunement bar with a 100-mana cast), the vitality barrier makes this a particularly pointless waste of mana; It is mechanically impossible to one-shot anything except via overkill mechanics, and for those to kick in you need to have something like twice the offensive power of your victim's defenses.
Do drop as much mana as you can sustain indefinitely, go over this in short bursts. Your attunement should be as close to 0 as possible at all times if you are seriously casting; this is the region it regenerates fastest. Use that full-power spell on your second or third cast.
Don't maintain cyclic TM, except with as little mana as possible for effect and occasional bonus damage (good for churning through the initial vitality barrier). Cyclics don't teach much on top of being stupidly expensive for their damage output, so you're wasting mana that could be converting into EXP through regular TM.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>The TM damage code doesn't care about spell tier.
I'd go farther and emphasize that magic doesn't particularly care about spell tier anymore. There's not really such a thing as a 'more advanced' TM spell, especially since TM experience doesn't care about spell difficulty. The increased difficulty largely covers extra features like DFA, AOE, knockback, cyclics.
Don't open with full-power TM spells (IE, don't take your entire attunement bar with a 100-mana cast), the vitality barrier makes this a particularly pointless waste of mana; It is mechanically impossible to one-shot anything except via overkill mechanics, and for those to kick in you need to have something like twice the offensive power of your victim's defenses.
Do drop as much mana as you can sustain indefinitely, go over this in short bursts. Your attunement should be as close to 0 as possible at all times if you are seriously casting; this is the region it regenerates fastest. Use that full-power spell on your second or third cast.
Don't maintain cyclic TM, except with as little mana as possible for effect and occasional bonus damage (good for churning through the initial vitality barrier). Cyclics don't teach much on top of being stupidly expensive for their damage output, so you're wasting mana that could be converting into EXP through regular TM.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
ENFO13
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/25/2015 01:15 PM CDT
>I believe a number of people have expressed this sentiment; I don't have an opinion, since I don't have much experience with normal TM (I just turn on a TM cyclic while I hunt).
Since you mentioned it, I went and picked up SLS today and it works a lot better.. killing roughly twice as fast. Need to collect more data though. It is a pain that it can only be used half the time.
>System wise, TM is not where we want it to be. It stays this way largely because there is another magic project we need to finish first (the barrier review). We have Plans, but it's going to be awhile before the dev work-hours are there to make it a reality.
I guess the other posters have got it right-- it feels like targeted magic as a whole is just lacking, not just mm. I haven't tried duels yet, but my moon mage just doesn't feel competitive. If the entire magic system is standardized, then maybe the entire TM as a skill (not just moon mages) needs a buff. If TM is intentionally weak right now because there might be some sort of mage staff from enchanting released in the future to buff the damage, it would be nice if TM could temporarily receive a slight damage buff until such an item is released, and then have TM be brought back down to what it is now. Our low damage is comparable with brawling and it does make sense as we are essentially "brawling" with magic..
I'm assuming with a standardized TM, it would be easy to slightly tweak the numbers upwards a little bit.
>While this is true, I think it'll feel better once we beat TKT with a shovel again since I don't think anyone is happy with the current form and get "Crystal Spike" released again. (It's coming back under a different name).
My gripe with TKT is that the extra target time, and the restriction that you can't use slivers and have to do it the old fashioned way if there are no moons, isn't worth the extra damage over single target spells--- if there is even any extra total damage at all. For a full prep of 14 seconds, it still hits softer than store-bought throwing blades from my barb, which can be hurled instantly (nifty new combat move along with lob btw, thanks!).
>There's even a new command now TARGET <spell> <mana> in order to bypass having to PREP <spell> and then TARGET it.
I was doing prep, then target, but I did not know about this new command. I'll try it out, thanks!
Since you mentioned it, I went and picked up SLS today and it works a lot better.. killing roughly twice as fast. Need to collect more data though. It is a pain that it can only be used half the time.
>System wise, TM is not where we want it to be. It stays this way largely because there is another magic project we need to finish first (the barrier review). We have Plans, but it's going to be awhile before the dev work-hours are there to make it a reality.
I guess the other posters have got it right-- it feels like targeted magic as a whole is just lacking, not just mm. I haven't tried duels yet, but my moon mage just doesn't feel competitive. If the entire magic system is standardized, then maybe the entire TM as a skill (not just moon mages) needs a buff. If TM is intentionally weak right now because there might be some sort of mage staff from enchanting released in the future to buff the damage, it would be nice if TM could temporarily receive a slight damage buff until such an item is released, and then have TM be brought back down to what it is now. Our low damage is comparable with brawling and it does make sense as we are essentially "brawling" with magic..
I'm assuming with a standardized TM, it would be easy to slightly tweak the numbers upwards a little bit.
>While this is true, I think it'll feel better once we beat TKT with a shovel again since I don't think anyone is happy with the current form and get "Crystal Spike" released again. (It's coming back under a different name).
My gripe with TKT is that the extra target time, and the restriction that you can't use slivers and have to do it the old fashioned way if there are no moons, isn't worth the extra damage over single target spells--- if there is even any extra total damage at all. For a full prep of 14 seconds, it still hits softer than store-bought throwing blades from my barb, which can be hurled instantly (nifty new combat move along with lob btw, thanks!).
>There's even a new command now TARGET <spell> <mana> in order to bypass having to PREP <spell> and then TARGET it.
I was doing prep, then target, but I did not know about this new command. I'll try it out, thanks!
GORELABO
Re: Could Moon mage TM damage output get a look?
03/29/2015 10:22 AM CDT
As I understand it TM damage is fairly low because TM is balanced with the idea in mind that while casting you have a decent amount of time to hit things with other methods, therefore, if it did as much damage as weapons did it'd be massively overpowered. This was supposed to be mitigated by targeting foci, at least according to Elanthapedia.
