HUTCHENS
tks vs tkt
10/11/2014 10:18 PM CDT
Hey all. I was wondering if anyone has seen a real advantage in using tks over tkt. The previous incarnation of the spell made sense to me. This one is basically tkt that just hits everything in the room from what I can tell. I'm just getting back from a long break so bear with me if I've got it way wrong.
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/11/2014 10:42 PM CDT
<<Hey all. I was wondering if anyone has seen a real advantage in using tks over tkt. The previous incarnation of the spell made sense to me. This one is basically tkt that just hits everything in the room from what I can tell. I'm just getting back from a long break so bear with me if I've got it way wrong.
TKS is an instant AoE that hits up to 4 engaged targets a single time each. TKT is an instant single target multi-strike that hits one target up to 3 (4?) times. Because TKS hits multiple creatures it is far better at teaching than TKT. It is hands down our best TM trainer right now. (I don't count SLS because of the casting restrictions.) The downside to TKS is that it is significantly more draining on your attunement than TKT, so it takes some skill to be able to cast it effectively.
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TKS is an instant AoE that hits up to 4 engaged targets a single time each. TKT is an instant single target multi-strike that hits one target up to 3 (4?) times. Because TKS hits multiple creatures it is far better at teaching than TKT. It is hands down our best TM trainer right now. (I don't count SLS because of the casting restrictions.) The downside to TKS is that it is significantly more draining on your attunement than TKT, so it takes some skill to be able to cast it effectively.
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HUTCHENS
CLERIXHAX
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 12:40 AM CDT
Just to clarify, TKS hits more than 4 creatures 1 time each.
You gesture.
You contribute your harnessed streams to increase the pattern's potential.
An ominous rustling comes from all around as debris takes flight of its own accord!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its neck!
The forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
It manages to get out of the way!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its left eye!
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a hard (6/23) hit to its back!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its neck!
The forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its head!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its left hind leg!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its left hind leg!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its chest!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
You gesture.
You contribute your harnessed streams to increase the pattern's potential.
An ominous rustling comes from all around as debris takes flight of its own accord!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its neck!
The forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
It manages to get out of the way!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its left eye!
The young forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a hard (6/23) hit to its back!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its neck!
The forest gryphon is lightly stunned!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a fledgling forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its head!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a good (4/23) hit to its left hind leg!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its left hind leg!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a solid (5/23) hit to its chest!
A steel throwing club jumps into the air and zips toward a young forest gryphon!
The throwing club lands a strong (7/23) hit to its chest!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 01:04 AM CDT
<<Just to clarify, TKS hits more than 4 creatures 1 time each.
How are you managing that? I have had up to 7 creatures in one room and it still only hits the 4 I am engaged with regardless of whether I use CAST or CAST CREATURES.
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How are you managing that? I have had up to 7 creatures in one room and it still only hits the 4 I am engaged with regardless of whether I use CAST or CAST CREATURES.
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BADGOPHER
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 06:21 AM CDT
Isn't there a 'cast area' or 'cast all' option?
Also, if someone could update the 'cast command' entry in the wiki that would be awesome. It only has cast and cast target.
Also, if someone could update the 'cast command' entry in the wiki that would be awesome. It only has cast and cast target.
CLERIXHAX
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 09:01 AM CDT
There's a few: target, target creature, target area. Mana also influences the number of strikes, the more mana you put into it the more you'll hit.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 09:12 AM CDT
<<target, target creature, target area.
Hmm... I wonder if that was my issue. I was using the modifiers with CAST not with TARGET. Mana should be good as I haven't been using minimum for a while. I will have to test.
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Hmm... I wonder if that was my issue. I was using the modifiers with CAST not with TARGET. Mana should be good as I haven't been using minimum for a while. I will have to test.
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ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 10:14 AM CDT
Alright, I figured out what was happening and there's two separate things.
Short version: CAST AREA/CREATURE is not functional for TM attacks. Use either PREPARE <spell> followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE, or TARGET <spell> AT CREATURE/AREA. The 'AT' is necessary.
Long version:
First, TARGET TKS CREATURE/AREA does not work to target the area or creatures. TARGET TKS AT CREATURE/AREA does. Second, neither CAST, CAST CREATURE, or CAST AREA will cast a TM spell according to their modifier. They will simply cast the spell based on the TARGET modifier, or as an unmodified CAST if there was no targeting done.
Combined this means that using TARGET TKS to prepare a spell precludes you from using CAST AREA/CREATURE and the cast is limited to hitting only the maximum of 4 engaged targets. Similarily, using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET alone also prevents CAST AREA/CREATURE from applying the modifier. Using PREPARE TKS and then CAST AREA/CREATURE without targeting also does not work, only affecting engaged creatures. The only way I was able to hit more than just the engaged targets was by using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE and then CAST, or by using TARGET TKS AT AREA/CREATURE and then CAST. It didn't matter which CAST modifier I used or didn't use, since it just cast based on the TARGET modifier used.
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Short version: CAST AREA/CREATURE is not functional for TM attacks. Use either PREPARE <spell> followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE, or TARGET <spell> AT CREATURE/AREA. The 'AT' is necessary.
Long version:
First, TARGET TKS CREATURE/AREA does not work to target the area or creatures. TARGET TKS AT CREATURE/AREA does. Second, neither CAST, CAST CREATURE, or CAST AREA will cast a TM spell according to their modifier. They will simply cast the spell based on the TARGET modifier, or as an unmodified CAST if there was no targeting done.
Combined this means that using TARGET TKS to prepare a spell precludes you from using CAST AREA/CREATURE and the cast is limited to hitting only the maximum of 4 engaged targets. Similarily, using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET alone also prevents CAST AREA/CREATURE from applying the modifier. Using PREPARE TKS and then CAST AREA/CREATURE without targeting also does not work, only affecting engaged creatures. The only way I was able to hit more than just the engaged targets was by using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE and then CAST, or by using TARGET TKS AT AREA/CREATURE and then CAST. It didn't matter which CAST modifier I used or didn't use, since it just cast based on the TARGET modifier used.
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ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 10:20 AM CDT
<<Short version: CAST AREA/CREATURE is not functional for TM attacks. Use either PREPARE <spell> followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE, or TARGET <spell> AT CREATURE/AREA. The 'AT' is necessary.
Forgot to include where to stick the mana value in that syntax if you want to prepare with more than min prep. TARGET <spell> <mana> AT CREATURE/AREA will work for that.
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Forgot to include where to stick the mana value in that syntax if you want to prepare with more than min prep. TARGET <spell> <mana> AT CREATURE/AREA will work for that.
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DR-RAESH
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 12:21 PM CDT
Is that parsing behavior the same as other area spells or unique to TKS?
That's not part of the magic system I've spent much time in, but that doesn't sound quite right.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
That's not part of the magic system I've spent much time in, but that doesn't sound quite right.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 01:16 PM CDT
<<Is that parsing behavior the same as other area spells or unique to TKS?
I'm not sure, Moon Mages only have one AoE. :p
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I'm not sure, Moon Mages only have one AoE. :p
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DR-RAESH
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 01:40 PM CDT
>>I'm not sure, Moon Mages only have one AoE. :p
o i c what u did thar
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
o i c what u did thar
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
CLERIXHAX
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 02:05 PM CDT
>First, TARGET TKS CREATURE/AREA does not work to target the area or creatures. TARGET TKS AT CREATURE/AREA does. Second, neither CAST, CAST CREATURE, or CAST AREA will cast a TM spell according to their modifier. They will simply cast the spell based on the TARGET modifier, or as an unmodified CAST if there was no targeting done.
>Combined this means that using TARGET TKS to prepare a spell precludes you from using CAST AREA/CREATURE and the cast is limited to hitting only the maximum of 4 engaged targets. Similarily, using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET alone also prevents CAST AREA/CREATURE from applying the modifier. Using PREPARE TKS and then CAST AREA/CREATURE without targeting also does not work, only affecting engaged creatures. The only way I was able to hit more than just the engaged targets was by using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE and then CAST, or by using TARGET TKS AT AREA/CREATURE and then CAST. It didn't matter which CAST modifier I used or didn't use, since it just cast based on the TARGET modifier used.
Yep, the syntax is target <spell> at creature/area. CAST AREA/CREATURE is reserved for AOE non TM spells, like DMRS for example. With TM you establish the matrix with the targeting verb hence the difference. The default target verb of an AOE spell hits only engaged. Likewise, the default verb for CAST on non targeted aoe spells will only hit engaged as well. You need to specify the modifier for anything else.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
>Combined this means that using TARGET TKS to prepare a spell precludes you from using CAST AREA/CREATURE and the cast is limited to hitting only the maximum of 4 engaged targets. Similarily, using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET alone also prevents CAST AREA/CREATURE from applying the modifier. Using PREPARE TKS and then CAST AREA/CREATURE without targeting also does not work, only affecting engaged creatures. The only way I was able to hit more than just the engaged targets was by using PREPARE TKS followed by TARGET AREA/CREATURE and then CAST, or by using TARGET TKS AT AREA/CREATURE and then CAST. It didn't matter which CAST modifier I used or didn't use, since it just cast based on the TARGET modifier used.
Yep, the syntax is target <spell> at creature/area. CAST AREA/CREATURE is reserved for AOE non TM spells, like DMRS for example. With TM you establish the matrix with the targeting verb hence the difference. The default target verb of an AOE spell hits only engaged. Likewise, the default verb for CAST on non targeted aoe spells will only hit engaged as well. You need to specify the modifier for anything else.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 02:13 PM CDT
<<Likewise, the default verb for CAST on non targeted aoe spells will only hit engaged as well. You need to specify the modifier for anything else.
Mind Shout hits everything regardless of engagement regardless of how it is CAST, although I think it is a special case because it is a remote spell that just also happens to be able to be cast locally. The trade-off is that you can't focus it more narrowly if you want to not hit your friends for example.
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Mind Shout hits everything regardless of engagement regardless of how it is CAST, although I think it is a special case because it is a remote spell that just also happens to be able to be cast locally. The trade-off is that you can't focus it more narrowly if you want to not hit your friends for example.
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CLERIXHAX
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 02:23 PM CDT
Yep, mind shout is an exception to the rule. Most other spells follow the CAST AREA/CREATURE/ENGAGED structure.
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
Amiron says, "Even a mute would have said something about this amount of people being about."
ILLIENA
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 02:32 PM CDT
> CAST AREA/CREATURE is reserved for AOE non TM spells, like DMRS for example.
Slight correction. It works with all non-targeted AoE spells; there are a few non-targeted AoE TM spells.
Slight correction. It works with all non-targeted AoE spells; there are a few non-targeted AoE TM spells.
DR-RAESH
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 06:06 PM CDT
Yeah, Mind Shout's parsing is not ideal. It's on my list to fix but the way the spell mechanically works is kinda... unfun.
Tangentially, does anyone actually use the remote function of it to any useful effect? Or are we just jumping through a bunch of parsing hooks and moonbeam requirements and whatnot for no good reason?
Had the spell been proposed today I don't think it'd be like it is, instead of was a resurrected idea for long ago where the vast majority of the code already existed and had just never been released.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
Tangentially, does anyone actually use the remote function of it to any useful effect? Or are we just jumping through a bunch of parsing hooks and moonbeam requirements and whatnot for no good reason?
Had the spell been proposed today I don't think it'd be like it is, instead of was a resurrected idea for long ago where the vast majority of the code already existed and had just never been released.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ALEPH-ONE
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 10:16 PM CDT
>>Tangentially, does anyone actually use the remote function of it to any useful effect?
I don't. The only use I can really think of for it as it is would be for a very niche PVP trap, maybe in war games. If it could be creatures only, it might be an interesting way to participate in invasions from afar. But then, we have WD for that.
Personally, I would much prefer something I could do without a moonbeam, even if it were restricted to my room.
-- Player of Eyuve
I don't. The only use I can really think of for it as it is would be for a very niche PVP trap, maybe in war games. If it could be creatures only, it might be an interesting way to participate in invasions from afar. But then, we have WD for that.
Personally, I would much prefer something I could do without a moonbeam, even if it were restricted to my room.
-- Player of Eyuve
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/12/2014 10:37 PM CDT
I have used it a couple of times remotely to help out an alt in combat if they got into trouble. Its not a perfect solution to helping someone out that way for obvious reasons, but it did help a bit since my alt was more able to resist it than the critters by a bit. And clearly this is a highly situational use.
That said, do I use it remotely a lot? Nope. The remote aspect does have cool factor written all over it in big bad bold letters though. Oh and this: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/images/8/8b/Atazai.jpg
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That said, do I use it remotely a lot? Nope. The remote aspect does have cool factor written all over it in big bad bold letters though. Oh and this: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/images/8/8b/Atazai.jpg
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BLACKRUSSIAN
Re: tks vs tkt
10/15/2014 05:11 PM CDT
From what I can tell, all AOE spells need to target <spell> AT <creature,all,engaged>. Or it defaults to enganged. Cast <whatever> doesn't effect them. Non tm spells work with cast <whatever>
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: tks vs tkt
10/19/2014 09:45 PM CDT
With regards to MS, the biggest reason that I haven't bothered to learn it is the moonbeam requirement. I almost always use contingency, which uses up one moonbeam, so using MS would be even more situational since I would have to forgo contingency or only hunt with two moons up.
PSYBORG
Re: tks vs tkt
10/27/2014 06:18 AM CDT
Mind shout...I vote for getting rid of the remote function of it and dropping the moonbeam requirement. It makes more sense to just be a thoughtcast type feedback loop around the caster.
ILLIENA
Re: tks vs tkt
10/27/2014 07:21 AM CDT
Dropping the moonbeam requirement would make me consider it. As it is now, it's just too inconvenient to bother with.
ABSOLON
Re: tks vs tkt
10/27/2014 01:18 PM CDT
<<As it is now, it's just too inconvenient to bother with.
I find the effects (and learning rate) are good enough that the casting restrictions are not overly taxing. The only times it cannot be cast are indoors and if there are no moons. And because of the Astral Plane I rarely find myself explicitly maintaining a moonbeam anywhere, so even when there's only a single moon I don't feel restricted at all. I can see Contingency taking up a moon slot instead of Mind Shout, but Contingency doesn't require a specific moon if linked with a person so that's an option instead.
All that said, I wouldn't mind if it loses the remote aspect and becomes de-linked from the moons, since less restrictions is less restrictions. It's just that I don't mind it as it is currently and I do get a lot of use out of it.
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I find the effects (and learning rate) are good enough that the casting restrictions are not overly taxing. The only times it cannot be cast are indoors and if there are no moons. And because of the Astral Plane I rarely find myself explicitly maintaining a moonbeam anywhere, so even when there's only a single moon I don't feel restricted at all. I can see Contingency taking up a moon slot instead of Mind Shout, but Contingency doesn't require a specific moon if linked with a person so that's an option instead.
All that said, I wouldn't mind if it loses the remote aspect and becomes de-linked from the moons, since less restrictions is less restrictions. It's just that I don't mind it as it is currently and I do get a lot of use out of it.
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VICTRIX96
Re: tks vs tkt
10/28/2014 08:55 AM CDT
I like mindshout. I use it as is, and find that it's an excellent way to train debilitation.
If there were any changes to the spell, I'd like to pinpoint it's use. Of course I'd expect this would be a lot more difficult, but it might make it an extra perk at higher levels.
Cast <moonbeam> <#st creature> or cast <moonbeam> <person>
Another way, for use in pvp situations, if the moon mage were able to lay up a seer's sense on their target, being able to mindshout the target might also be an interesting application of the spell. I would expect that any of the above would be dependent upon the appropriate skill/stat checks.
Actually, it would be cool to have Seer's Sense useable in a lot of different ways, that when used against targets, it would allow for us to use a variety of debilitating spells from a distance (the distance being determined by the skill of the mage) and would return some of the "wow" factor that moonies have been missing since 3.0.
Just a couple of coppers ;->
If there were any changes to the spell, I'd like to pinpoint it's use. Of course I'd expect this would be a lot more difficult, but it might make it an extra perk at higher levels.
Cast <moonbeam> <#st creature> or cast <moonbeam> <person>
Another way, for use in pvp situations, if the moon mage were able to lay up a seer's sense on their target, being able to mindshout the target might also be an interesting application of the spell. I would expect that any of the above would be dependent upon the appropriate skill/stat checks.
Actually, it would be cool to have Seer's Sense useable in a lot of different ways, that when used against targets, it would allow for us to use a variety of debilitating spells from a distance (the distance being determined by the skill of the mage) and would return some of the "wow" factor that moonies have been missing since 3.0.
Just a couple of coppers ;->
