I don't know how to make this work, but currently Tangled Fate when used to alter a prediction is actually less useful to a sorcerer than it is to a non-sorcerer or a dabbler.

For someone who uses teleo with any degree of regularity, teleologic corruption is at the very least at high levels and most likely capped. Because Tangled Fate's duration and strength is capped by the original prediction's duration and strength this means that we get at most 2 to 4 minute buffs with minimum power even with a full pool. Someone who just dabbles on the other hand will get almost a full 10 to 40 minute duration at nearly full strength.

It just doesn't seem right that a spell specifically used by sorcerers is far less effective for them than non-sorcerers. I can see why we don't just want to make it so that we are getting full duration predictions from a cast, since that takes away a lot of the downside of using sorcery... but the situation right now isn't working well.

---

Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

Agreed.

I'm not a fan of any of the teleo spells in their current state.
They are basically working against each other. This screams "high risk high reward" game-play but it misses the mark, by a lot.

---

Sever Thread - can predict on anyone globally. Great, too bad predictions are bad with high teleo.
Seers sense effect? I can just cast seers sense on the person. Seer's sense is not dispellable or detectable on the target. Sever thread is.
Multiple immobilization - doesn't last long enough and better tools out there.

Sov - Nice debuffs. But not good enough to get teleo corruption.
Ending predictions - completely pointless. Used to be OK when people used CJs.

TF - More prediction stuff. As mentioned above. Only good for dabblers.

TV - Nice in practice. Worthless in use. Filling up pools doesn't matter if your predictions are terrible. Plus the whole wounding aspect doesn't make it anymore appealing.

---

An overhaul to teleo corruption could help bring a few of these spells in-line. For instance, if telo corruption had a chance of spawning a void creature with each cast instead of corrupting prediction, it would solve all of the teleo prediction issues. It would also create high risk game play because... you could die. The "rewards" could use a bit of work, but would make TF/TV worth using. ST and SOV are still not worth it. Slot costs are still an issue as well.

>> The debuff vs critters is very noticeable since they only have a handful of things to debuff. I.e. you always debuff something worthwhile. The devuff vs players is hit or miss because of the larger selection of useless things to debuff, but the pulsing rt is worth a cast even if it doesn't land a useful curse.

If I had to hunt where debuffs matter, I wouldn't want to hunt with something inconsistent. Further, last time I checked some stats debuffs hurt learning, so this isn't particularly useful. For example, using 2.0 DALU, you received far less exp for attacking a prone/sleeping/-agi/-refl/-str enemy. I'm not sure if it was the stat debuff or the prone, but it was very noticeable.

Pulsing RT, slightly useful.

>> As for the self cast, sure you're not getting a powerful prediction from your pools, but you're training Astrology far faster than a non-sorcerer can.

Astrology training is pretty quick already. If I was using a teleo spell to train astrology... I would max out corruption incredibly fast. Which would make predictions completely worthless and destoy the one use? of the Astrology skill.


None of this is worth 2 slots and teleo corruption.

>> "Last you checked" no longer applies. And might as well obtuse debilitation at all with any of that reasoning.

Heh. I don't have many agi/ref debuffs to check. I'd be surprised if this changed though. I'd like to see someone use DALU and do app creature before/after. I can probably do my own testing on prone opponents but I likely won't because I have neither the time nor desire to produce 1000 data sets to satisfy you. (I'm sure even if I did there would be some error to disprove everything.)

And yes, debilitation can be made pointless by choosing your hunting areas wisely. I use debilitation to... train debilitation.

Certain defense debuffs may have a positive effect on weapon exp from increased damage but it's hard to say as debilitation effects in combat are less then they once were. Plus with the vitality barrier its hard to see any major differences until the creature is almost dead anyways.

Offense debuffs, few and far between, are definitely useful but again largely mitigated by hunting area and spell duration. For example, if I was trying to up-hunt using curse of the wild, this would be incredibly dangerous and somewhat suicidal. You would need to keep each creature debuffed and refresh the duration and also when new ones come in the room. Basically not doable. Frankly the only spell that can achieve this consistently is malediction with hydra hex.

And we aren't even talking about the other negative impact on learning from certain debilitation spells like frostbite, sleep, etc.

Debilitation in PVE negligible? Absolutely.

>>I can lock Astrology from zero pools in about 3 minutes with TV.

How are you managing the nerve damage?

<<I assume an empath.

Usually an auto-empath, yes. Although I do use a PC empath when I want to store up full pools for future mindlocking. That takes about 15-20 minutes and nets me about 3.5 mindlocks out of the deal.

<<And 3 minutes might be powerful enough that I need to revisit the spell somewhat.

It's 3 minutes if I'm fully efficient. Realistically it's more along the lines of 5 minutes. I currently get 4 'observations' per cast (not quite capped mana yet) and it takes me 3 casts to get enough observations to get to around 32-34/34. Downtime between casts due to nerve damage and forum browsing is the biggest efficiency detractor.

I will say that as a regular teleological caster, Tezirah's Veil out of all the teleo spells is the only one that feels right in terms of the cost/reward choice of using teleo.

---

Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators

<<Any suggestions for the others?

<<Off the cuff I know there's concerns about TF not being able to exceed the base prediction value.

It actually appears to be even less than that. When I use a full pool prediction it lasts about 4 to 6 minutes due to my corruption. Converting it to a Tangled Fate prediction only ends up lasting 2 to 3 minutes at most even when cast with almost capped mana. I.e. it appears to be reducing the prediction duration (and presumably the strength) by approximately 50%. Maybe it should scale better so that it at least reaches the level of the original prediction instead of just a percentage of it? That's still a bit lackluster, but it would be better than what we have now. I would also suggest maybe scaling the scaling based on corruption levels. So a non-sorcerer might only get 25% of the effect, while a fully corrupt sorcerer would get 100% of the effect. They'd still end up with larger predictions than us, but at least it's a nod to the fact that they're only dabblers.

<<SOD

The debuff is not a bad debuff necessarily... just very, very situational as you mentioned. There's almost no use for it in PvE in its current form. It would have some use as a prediction remover if able to be self cast, however. It already functions this way on others, so why not ourselves? E.g. When I spam TV for astrology learning I tend to end up with a lot of low level curses for several minutes. Being able to follow up with a self-cast SOD would make those all go away, and then I could follow up with a self-cast Rend to get rid of the SOD. This would be enough for me to enjoy having the spell.

<<SET

This effect isn't necessarily bad... it's just that we have 4 other abilities that already do the same with less hassle. Maybe explore the psychic link in a way that Seer's Sense wouldn't be able to. I have a harder time coming up with ways to improve this spell unfortunately.

---

Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators