I've trained all the weapon skills so far and have them nearly equal, but lately I've been considering cutting back. I meant to do this long ago, but working them all turned out to be surprisingly addictive. Plus, it fit my character's RP of being weapon heavy before joining the moon mage guild. But I do want to go up the creature ladder faster than I am now.
I like the old advice of blade, blunt, bow, brawling, and thrown, and because I farm boxes I would probably go heavy: 2HE, 2HB, bow, brawling, HT. To this I add OW/SE since it seems very Elven. However, I'm torn between bow and crossbow. I like them both. So I might have to drop 2HB and work them both.
I was hoping to hear what weapon choices other moon mages have made and whether they consider themselves magic or weapon heavy. Also wondering why anyone might have picked either bow or crossbow over the other?
FWIW, a side note is after finally replacing all my old weapons with new forged my total kills increased 25%.
COLDLIGHT
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 12:18 AM CDT
I was almost purely a mage until the magic changes of 3.0 made that less than desirable. Backtrained combats with only small edge parang (S'Kra ME slicer) and now i'm slowly bringing a 2HE axe up to be my primary. At that point I'll probably stop training SE. I still use magic as my sole ranged weapon.
It seems like there's very little reason beyond RP considerations or TDP generation to choose light weapon classes long term.
We'll have to see how engineered bows and crossbows turn out to see if there's an advantage for moon mages between choosing one or the other.
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It seems like there's very little reason beyond RP considerations or TDP generation to choose light weapon classes long term.
We'll have to see how engineered bows and crossbows turn out to see if there's an advantage for moon mages between choosing one or the other.
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KUYKEND9
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 12:31 AM CDT
>> It seems like there's very little reason beyond RP considerations or TDP generation to choose light weapon classes long term.
With the disclaimer that I personally don't understand the nuances of combat, I'd like to disagree. I would have agreed under the old system, but now that ME/LE have been combined in "Small Edged," I would say that SE (and SB) are perfectly viable options. I've also read (again, I personally am fairly combat-dumb) that the heaver SB (formerly MB) weapons outperform virtually all of the current LB weapons.
I
"[A]ll PC necromancers are now redeemed good guys..." ~ GM Raesh
With the disclaimer that I personally don't understand the nuances of combat, I'd like to disagree. I would have agreed under the old system, but now that ME/LE have been combined in "Small Edged," I would say that SE (and SB) are perfectly viable options. I've also read (again, I personally am fairly combat-dumb) that the heaver SB (formerly MB) weapons outperform virtually all of the current LB weapons.
I
"[A]ll PC necromancers are now redeemed good guys..." ~ GM Raesh
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 12:53 AM CDT
You're free to disagree but take any SE weapon up to 500 or 800 ranks and then do the same with 2HE. Try LT vs HT. For time invested in the long term choosing a light weapon class over a heavy class (especially as a moon mage) is making the choice to do much less damage.
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BADGOPHER
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 06:32 AM CDT
The argument is that small edge weapons are statistically better at overall damage, and damage over time, than heavy edge variants. There hasn't been any argument that they were better at damage dealing than 2he, but they are better at building and maintaining balance and other critical things in PvP (that's what I hear, I don't PvP).
As such, the current min/max recommendation is to drop heavy edge and just use the small and 2h variants.
Also, it's blindingly stupid to ever recommend training only one weapon. 3-4 is really a better idea (training all is pointless over kill). Just training 1, if you lose yours (breakage, forgot to pick it up from the repair shop, death, tingle, whatever) you're in trouble. TDP generation aside, you're going to be sitting in combat anyway, so adding 2-3 more weapons over just 1 really doesn't increase your total time in-combat much; it's lost time to only train one weapon.
As such, the current min/max recommendation is to drop heavy edge and just use the small and 2h variants.
Also, it's blindingly stupid to ever recommend training only one weapon. 3-4 is really a better idea (training all is pointless over kill). Just training 1, if you lose yours (breakage, forgot to pick it up from the repair shop, death, tingle, whatever) you're in trouble. TDP generation aside, you're going to be sitting in combat anyway, so adding 2-3 more weapons over just 1 really doesn't increase your total time in-combat much; it's lost time to only train one weapon.
UFTIM
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 10:29 AM CDT
>> But I do want to go up the creature ladder faster than I am now.
How much higher are your weapon masteries than your weapons? If it's relatively close, than training multiple weapons isn't really holding you back.
As a disclaimer, I play in TF, and I train all weapons equally, on nearly every character I play. I've found that it doesn't really hold me back, but then again, I spend nearly all of my time in combat.
As a weapon tert, especially, you can lock weapons so quickly, I really recommend training all of them. The TDP benefits of doing so are huge. My necro in TF has 500 in all weapons, and 520 in masteries. So training fewer weapons wouldn't have helped me move up the ladder faster, but having all the TDPs does help me move up more quickly.
How much higher are your weapon masteries than your weapons? If it's relatively close, than training multiple weapons isn't really holding you back.
As a disclaimer, I play in TF, and I train all weapons equally, on nearly every character I play. I've found that it doesn't really hold me back, but then again, I spend nearly all of my time in combat.
As a weapon tert, especially, you can lock weapons so quickly, I really recommend training all of them. The TDP benefits of doing so are huge. My necro in TF has 500 in all weapons, and 520 in masteries. So training fewer weapons wouldn't have helped me move up the ladder faster, but having all the TDPs does help me move up more quickly.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 10:30 AM CDT
Not a moon mage but...
>I've trained all the weapon skills so far and have them nearly equal, but lately I've been considering cutting back. I meant to do this long ago, but working them all turned out to be surprisingly addictive. Plus, it fit my character's RP of being weapon heavy before joining the moon mage guild. But I do want to go up the creature ladder faster than I am now.
It's entirely possible to keep all weapons moving at the same time if you have the patience to script it right by using the right attacks, quality weapons, offhand, not waiting until mind lock, etc. I know people who trained all weapons within a couple of ranks of each other without sacrificing any other skill training in the process. I mean, you'll have to hunting ground jump occasionally to lock TM, but what guild doesn't and you'll have to do that whether you train one weapon or ten.
>I like the old advice of blade, blunt, bow, brawling, and thrown, and because I farm boxes I would probably go heavy: 2HE, 2HB, bow, brawling, HT. To this I add OW/SE since it seems very Elven. However, I'm torn between bow and crossbow. I like them both. So I might have to drop 2HB and work them both.
If you prefer to cut down on weapons because there's no real purpose outside TDPs or you don't have much play time, I'd advise dropping the "large" weapons first as BADGOPHER stated, then I'd drop 2HB and 2HE if you must, because, frankly, polearms and staves are better and fit the same niches. HT and LT are both worth training so you can throw your large or small weapons without swapping. Plus, they're so easy to train. I'd recommend crossbows over bows if you're torn between the two. Crossbows are good weapons and will only get better when crafted crossbows and bolts come out, you don't need to worry about loading or aiming penalties, and XB synergizes well with offhand thrown. It's not like you can dual load. Slings aren't a bad option either (blasphemy, right?).
I've known a lot of moon mages of old who did not train (m)any weapons. TM damage in 3.1 is a fine replacement for a ranged weapon, and it trains as a primary rate, but you're really going to regret it the first time you fight a warmie using AC or a cleric using GHS. Plus, imagine how fun it would be to MB, prep your TM spell, aim a crossbow and offhand throw all at the same time.
>I've trained all the weapon skills so far and have them nearly equal, but lately I've been considering cutting back. I meant to do this long ago, but working them all turned out to be surprisingly addictive. Plus, it fit my character's RP of being weapon heavy before joining the moon mage guild. But I do want to go up the creature ladder faster than I am now.
It's entirely possible to keep all weapons moving at the same time if you have the patience to script it right by using the right attacks, quality weapons, offhand, not waiting until mind lock, etc. I know people who trained all weapons within a couple of ranks of each other without sacrificing any other skill training in the process. I mean, you'll have to hunting ground jump occasionally to lock TM, but what guild doesn't and you'll have to do that whether you train one weapon or ten.
>I like the old advice of blade, blunt, bow, brawling, and thrown, and because I farm boxes I would probably go heavy: 2HE, 2HB, bow, brawling, HT. To this I add OW/SE since it seems very Elven. However, I'm torn between bow and crossbow. I like them both. So I might have to drop 2HB and work them both.
If you prefer to cut down on weapons because there's no real purpose outside TDPs or you don't have much play time, I'd advise dropping the "large" weapons first as BADGOPHER stated, then I'd drop 2HB and 2HE if you must, because, frankly, polearms and staves are better and fit the same niches. HT and LT are both worth training so you can throw your large or small weapons without swapping. Plus, they're so easy to train. I'd recommend crossbows over bows if you're torn between the two. Crossbows are good weapons and will only get better when crafted crossbows and bolts come out, you don't need to worry about loading or aiming penalties, and XB synergizes well with offhand thrown. It's not like you can dual load. Slings aren't a bad option either (blasphemy, right?).
I've known a lot of moon mages of old who did not train (m)any weapons. TM damage in 3.1 is a fine replacement for a ranged weapon, and it trains as a primary rate, but you're really going to regret it the first time you fight a warmie using AC or a cleric using GHS. Plus, imagine how fun it would be to MB, prep your TM spell, aim a crossbow and offhand throw all at the same time.
FLINT-TIPPED
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 10:49 AM CDT
>Also, it's blindingly stupid to ever recommend training only one weapon.
no one is recommending training one weapon Vickers.
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no one is recommending training one weapon Vickers.
Vote:
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BADGOPHER
DAMIAN98
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 11:42 AM CDT
>I was hoping to hear what weapon choices other moon mages have made and whether they consider themselves magic or weapon heavy. Also wondering why anyone might have picked either bow or crossbow over the other?
I'm a smaller guy so I chose the opposite - SE, SB, LT. But I also train Bow, LX, Slings and Staves. I kept adding weapons until I had trouble keeping them all moving at the same time, they only all get up to about 10/34 at one time, but I prioritize my TM training (if TM isn't locked, I work it first). I'm also kinda OCD and I like that I have three melee trained and three ranged and then LT. The only thing I would have wished to add on top is HT.
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I'm a smaller guy so I chose the opposite - SE, SB, LT. But I also train Bow, LX, Slings and Staves. I kept adding weapons until I had trouble keeping them all moving at the same time, they only all get up to about 10/34 at one time, but I prioritize my TM training (if TM isn't locked, I work it first). I'm also kinda OCD and I like that I have three melee trained and three ranged and then LT. The only thing I would have wished to add on top is HT.
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NINEVAH1
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 04:31 PM CDT
I'd recommend SE, Polearms, Staves, Xbow, and HT. If you want a couple more weapons then throw in SB, 2HE, and\or LT.
ABSOLON
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 06:24 PM CDT
<<I'd recommend SE, Polearms, Staves, Xbow, and HT. If you want a couple more weapons then throw in SB, 2HE, and\or LT.
And brawling so you can still parry well if disarmed. Also train offhand using HT/LT, since it doesn't require any additional effort.
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And brawling so you can still parry well if disarmed. Also train offhand using HT/LT, since it doesn't require any additional effort.
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COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/29/2015 11:45 PM CDT
>(training all is pointless over kill)
Possibly for some, but the original reason I trained all the weapons was because it fit my character's RP of being weapon heavy before ever even hearing about the moon mage guild. Then I found out I enjoyed the sense of improvisation and resourcefulness that came from working them all. It's that "anything is a weapon in the right hands" mentality. It affirmed the IC that had appealed to me from the start.
Later, I decided to keep locksmithing up with skinning and needed more kills since IMHO most box-drop rates are abysmal. As long as I was going to be hunting long enough to get enough boxes I didn't see the point in keep using weapons after they locked. I might was well use them all.
I also like my weapon master title I got while doing that, but a part of me suspects one day the requirements for it might increase since there's fewer weapon skills now. So I might not cut back weapons just yet.
Yes, the TDPs are nice too.
>How much higher are your weapon masteries than your weapons? If it's relatively close, than training multiple weapons isn't really holding you back.
>As a disclaimer, I play in TF, and I train all weapons equally, on nearly every character I play. I've found that it doesn't really hold me back, but then again, I spend nearly all of my time in combat.
Masteries are nearly 150 ranks higher than weapons, as are all my combats, even armors. My main defenses are even higher. To some degree it's because those skills train the entire hunt while weapons train in turn, locking only once. My target is so far ahead of my weapons that I still haven't even put it in my current combat script.
A bigger issue is by the time my combat script is halfway through weapons, my non-combats are getting close to clearing out. Some of them are more important to me than combats, so I leave the hunting ground. Once non-combats are all trained up again I go back and do the second half of the weapon skills. Unfortunately, this means the other combats are worked twice as much as weapons. I've let that go on far too long.
>I know people who trained all weapons within a couple of ranks of each other without sacrificing any other skill training in the process.
What I think you might be hinting at here is maybe combining everything into a single superscript so one can stay in combat a long time? That's a possibility. I've never really tried the "one script to rule them all" approach. That plus changing my script to switch weapons after each kill might help keep them moving and balanced. It's more feasible now since several non-combats have reached goal and I've stopped training them for now.
The problem child would be astrology since right now I'm hunting inside. Maybe that's another reason finally to wean myself off Zoluren/Therengia and go to zombies/apes. Zombies hand out boxes like Halloween candy.
I notice there's not much love for bows at all. Also impressed some moon mages like polearms.
>Plus, imagine how fun it would be to MB, prep your TM spell, aim a crossbow and offhand throw all at the same time.
Definitely badarse :)
I appreciate all the replies.
Possibly for some, but the original reason I trained all the weapons was because it fit my character's RP of being weapon heavy before ever even hearing about the moon mage guild. Then I found out I enjoyed the sense of improvisation and resourcefulness that came from working them all. It's that "anything is a weapon in the right hands" mentality. It affirmed the IC that had appealed to me from the start.
Later, I decided to keep locksmithing up with skinning and needed more kills since IMHO most box-drop rates are abysmal. As long as I was going to be hunting long enough to get enough boxes I didn't see the point in keep using weapons after they locked. I might was well use them all.
I also like my weapon master title I got while doing that, but a part of me suspects one day the requirements for it might increase since there's fewer weapon skills now. So I might not cut back weapons just yet.
Yes, the TDPs are nice too.
>How much higher are your weapon masteries than your weapons? If it's relatively close, than training multiple weapons isn't really holding you back.
>As a disclaimer, I play in TF, and I train all weapons equally, on nearly every character I play. I've found that it doesn't really hold me back, but then again, I spend nearly all of my time in combat.
Masteries are nearly 150 ranks higher than weapons, as are all my combats, even armors. My main defenses are even higher. To some degree it's because those skills train the entire hunt while weapons train in turn, locking only once. My target is so far ahead of my weapons that I still haven't even put it in my current combat script.
A bigger issue is by the time my combat script is halfway through weapons, my non-combats are getting close to clearing out. Some of them are more important to me than combats, so I leave the hunting ground. Once non-combats are all trained up again I go back and do the second half of the weapon skills. Unfortunately, this means the other combats are worked twice as much as weapons. I've let that go on far too long.
>I know people who trained all weapons within a couple of ranks of each other without sacrificing any other skill training in the process.
What I think you might be hinting at here is maybe combining everything into a single superscript so one can stay in combat a long time? That's a possibility. I've never really tried the "one script to rule them all" approach. That plus changing my script to switch weapons after each kill might help keep them moving and balanced. It's more feasible now since several non-combats have reached goal and I've stopped training them for now.
The problem child would be astrology since right now I'm hunting inside. Maybe that's another reason finally to wean myself off Zoluren/Therengia and go to zombies/apes. Zombies hand out boxes like Halloween candy.
I notice there's not much love for bows at all. Also impressed some moon mages like polearms.
>Plus, imagine how fun it would be to MB, prep your TM spell, aim a crossbow and offhand throw all at the same time.
Definitely badarse :)
I appreciate all the replies.
DAMIAN98
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 12:15 AM CDT
>I notice there's not much love for bows at all.
Bows are problematic for multiple reasons: 1) We don't receive any bonus' or special abilities (snipe, dual load, reduced load). 2) We actually receive the penalty to load with a worn shield 3) There's still the penalty to defense while aiming.
Crossbows, on the other hand, there's no load/shield penalty and we do receive the load reduction times.
Slings are a bit of a cross because there's no load/shield penalty but there's no reduction in load time or special ability either.
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Bows are problematic for multiple reasons: 1) We don't receive any bonus' or special abilities (snipe, dual load, reduced load). 2) We actually receive the penalty to load with a worn shield 3) There's still the penalty to defense while aiming.
Crossbows, on the other hand, there's no load/shield penalty and we do receive the load reduction times.
Slings are a bit of a cross because there's no load/shield penalty but there's no reduction in load time or special ability either.
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COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 01:29 AM CDT
>There's still the penalty to defense while aiming.
Are we sure of this? In this post Dart says aiming penalties were removed long ago. Were they put back in later?
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Combat%20-%20Weapons%20and%20Armor/Bows%20and%20Arrows%20-%20Death%20By%20Air/view/1069
Bows have some issues it's true, but I thought some would just like the idea of bow enough to use it. They seem to work fine in PvE. It misses less than my melee weapons. I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
Are we sure of this? In this post Dart says aiming penalties were removed long ago. Were they put back in later?
http://forums.play.net/forums/DragonRealms/Combat%20-%20Weapons%20and%20Armor/Bows%20and%20Arrows%20-%20Death%20By%20Air/view/1069
Bows have some issues it's true, but I thought some would just like the idea of bow enough to use it. They seem to work fine in PvE. It misses less than my melee weapons. I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 02:03 AM CDT
I'm getting sleepy so forgot to add this:
>load reduction times
In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
>load reduction times
In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
NINEVAH1
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 06:11 AM CDT
>>3) There's still the penalty to defense while aiming.
No there isn't.
>>Bows have some issues it's true, but I thought some would just like the idea of bow enough to use it. They seem to work fine in PvE. It misses less than my melee weapons. I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
Unless you are a Ranger\Barb or just want to use a bow for RP reasons then there is no other reason to pick Bow over Xbow. Bow receives nothing but penalties (except for a couple of guilds) and Xbow has nothing but advantages. Grab a stonebow and some crafted sling ammo and you won't regret it.
>>In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
This won't happen till Shaping is released into Prime at the earliest, if he doesn't save it till Xbows are craftable. When that happens aimable ranged weapons should be balanced across the board. New bows are going to be great IMO because their stats will actually matter finally, and you will see a clear difference in how templates work. At that point this conversation may be moot pending how old xbows do in the new system.
No there isn't.
>>Bows have some issues it's true, but I thought some would just like the idea of bow enough to use it. They seem to work fine in PvE. It misses less than my melee weapons. I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
Unless you are a Ranger\Barb or just want to use a bow for RP reasons then there is no other reason to pick Bow over Xbow. Bow receives nothing but penalties (except for a couple of guilds) and Xbow has nothing but advantages. Grab a stonebow and some crafted sling ammo and you won't regret it.
>>In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
This won't happen till Shaping is released into Prime at the earliest, if he doesn't save it till Xbows are craftable. When that happens aimable ranged weapons should be balanced across the board. New bows are going to be great IMO because their stats will actually matter finally, and you will see a clear difference in how templates work. At that point this conversation may be moot pending how old xbows do in the new system.
DAMIAN98
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 10:27 AM CDT
>Are we sure of this? In this post Dart says aiming penalties were removed long ago. Were they put back in later?
I was specifically referring to being unable to use parry at all, you are totally reliant upon shield and evasion (and stance does not automatically adjust). There might be further penalties, I don't know for sure, but I definitely get hit a lot more when using bow despite not having any stance in parry. (Aiming penalty?)
>I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
No, I'm referring to only PvE actually. XB hits harder, reduced load time, and no load penalty. And unlike bow I don't get hit as often when aiming.
>In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
Yep, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm looking forward to it too, but I don't imagine it will be anytime soon.
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I was specifically referring to being unable to use parry at all, you are totally reliant upon shield and evasion (and stance does not automatically adjust). There might be further penalties, I don't know for sure, but I definitely get hit a lot more when using bow despite not having any stance in parry. (Aiming penalty?)
>I assume you're meaning XB is better than bow in PvP?
No, I'm referring to only PvE actually. XB hits harder, reduced load time, and no load penalty. And unlike bow I don't get hit as often when aiming.
>In the crossbow folder the XB load reduction time were pointed out to Kodius, who didn't seem to be aware of them. He didn't like that they applied only to crossbows. He'd look for a better way to provide bonuses for all weapons it sounded like.
Yep, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm looking forward to it too, but I don't imagine it will be anytime soon.
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COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 08:09 PM CDT
>There might be further penalties, I don't know for sure, but I definitely get hit a lot more when using bow despite not having any stance in parry.
This is interesting to me because my experience is totally different. When I work bow or crossbow or sling, my script autoshifts to evasion/shield since none of them can parry, and it works pefectly. I have no idea why you're getting hit so much.
I fully aim, which already takes so much time that an extra 1 second of RT from shield or 1 second of RT load reduction is meaningless to me. Snapshooting would be different. YMMV
From my viewpoint, the real downside for bow is the shooting accuracy penalty while wearing a shield. At least I have no idea what else might be causing the difference between bow and the other two load/shoot weapons, or what else the shooting hindrance messaging might mean.
I went back over my last log to get the numbers. It was worse than I thought. I was using a Forgenash longbow with basilisk arrows, a uku'uanstaho using storebought bolts, and a festie sling using capped quartzite smooth stones. Everything is equal, including ranks. My script uses the same load/shoot section for all three weapons.
This shooting accuracy penalty for shooting a bow while wearing a shield is a problem. Like I mentioned earlier, I like the IC of using a bow, but if excessive penalties accomplish little besides causing most players to avoid using something, as many have said they do with bow, then it has to be changed. Especially if there's nothing to be gained by keeping the penalties.
Bow still outperformed my melee weapons, which ranged in the low to high 60s percentile for hitting accuracy. But then my weapons are at the low end of my creature's range.
This is interesting to me because my experience is totally different. When I work bow or crossbow or sling, my script autoshifts to evasion/shield since none of them can parry, and it works pefectly. I have no idea why you're getting hit so much.
I fully aim, which already takes so much time that an extra 1 second of RT from shield or 1 second of RT load reduction is meaningless to me. Snapshooting would be different. YMMV
From my viewpoint, the real downside for bow is the shooting accuracy penalty while wearing a shield. At least I have no idea what else might be causing the difference between bow and the other two load/shoot weapons, or what else the shooting hindrance messaging might mean.
I went back over my last log to get the numbers. It was worse than I thought. I was using a Forgenash longbow with basilisk arrows, a uku'uanstaho using storebought bolts, and a festie sling using capped quartzite smooth stones. Everything is equal, including ranks. My script uses the same load/shoot section for all three weapons.
| Weapon | Total Shots | Misses | Accuracy |
| Bow | 25 | 5 | 80% |
| Crossbow | 18 | 1 | 94% |
| Sling | 27 | 3 | 89% |
This shooting accuracy penalty for shooting a bow while wearing a shield is a problem. Like I mentioned earlier, I like the IC of using a bow, but if excessive penalties accomplish little besides causing most players to avoid using something, as many have said they do with bow, then it has to be changed. Especially if there's nothing to be gained by keeping the penalties.
Bow still outperformed my melee weapons, which ranged in the low to high 60s percentile for hitting accuracy. But then my weapons are at the low end of my creature's range.
ABSOLON
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 08:31 PM CDT
I'm just going to point out that 25 shots per weapon is nowhere near enough to provide a statistically meaningful comparison.
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BADGOPHER
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 08:32 PM CDT
>This shooting accuracy penalty for shooting a bow while wearing a shield is a problem.
I'm not sure I agree. 25 shots really isn't a significant enough sample. In your example, you conclude bow has a significant penalty because you missed 2 more shots than sling, which doesn't have any penalty, but still scored a 90% hit rate. Also, this glosses over hit power, which is an important variable in the damage per unit time equation; misses can be accounted for in the damage per time value.
>Bow still outperformed my melee weapons, which ranged in the low to high 60s percentile for hitting accuracy.
I guess I don't understand the problem; if bows are more accurate than melee weapons, deal more damage, and hit from missile, shouldn't they have some penalty?
I'm not sure I agree. 25 shots really isn't a significant enough sample. In your example, you conclude bow has a significant penalty because you missed 2 more shots than sling, which doesn't have any penalty, but still scored a 90% hit rate. Also, this glosses over hit power, which is an important variable in the damage per unit time equation; misses can be accounted for in the damage per time value.
>Bow still outperformed my melee weapons, which ranged in the low to high 60s percentile for hitting accuracy.
I guess I don't understand the problem; if bows are more accurate than melee weapons, deal more damage, and hit from missile, shouldn't they have some penalty?
COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 08:56 PM CDT
The more the merrier I agree. I'll have more time in a bit and will get a better sample, but it was all I could do on the spur of the moment.
>I guess I don't understand the problem; if bows are more accurate than melee weapons, deal more damage, and hit from missile, shouldn't they have some penalty?
Possibly, but if this is true then it sounds like crossbow should become even more penalized since the general agreement is it's superior to bow?
It was just an FYI.
>I guess I don't understand the problem; if bows are more accurate than melee weapons, deal more damage, and hit from missile, shouldn't they have some penalty?
Possibly, but if this is true then it sounds like crossbow should become even more penalized since the general agreement is it's superior to bow?
It was just an FYI.
BADGOPHER
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 09:39 PM CDT
>Possibly, but if this is true then it sounds like crossbow should become even more penalized since the general agreement is it's superior to bow?
Eh. It already has a stack of penalties. Load time of 12-15 seconds is a lot higher than bows (3-5), good ammo is scarce or fest only, you can't craft crossbows or crossbow ammo. I think some of the balancing act between bow and crossbow will be done when both can be crafted.
Really, crossbow is only being viewed more favorably because people feel ranged damage in general is lackluster in 3.1, as far as I can tell (people say TM, bows, LT all stink)
Eh. It already has a stack of penalties. Load time of 12-15 seconds is a lot higher than bows (3-5), good ammo is scarce or fest only, you can't craft crossbows or crossbow ammo. I think some of the balancing act between bow and crossbow will be done when both can be crafted.
Really, crossbow is only being viewed more favorably because people feel ranged damage in general is lackluster in 3.1, as far as I can tell (people say TM, bows, LT all stink)
DR-KODIUS
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 09:43 PM CDT
I'd caution that it is completely impossible to draw any conclusions from less than 100 - 1000 samples... you could "roll a 1" 20 times in a row or "roll a 20" just as many.
IIRC Crossbows technically have no balance... and so inherently penalize your OF. Though I'd have to run a bunch of tests myself to see how it stacks up to the "shield penalty". Just something to consider too. This will probably change with Tinkered crossbows because it annoys me.
And even if you were technically missing 10% more with the bow versus the crossbow, keep in mind the bow has a shorter load time and therefore a bit higher potential DPS before factoring in the misses...
Keep in mind the bow use for PvP differs from the bow use for PvE... Repeaters and Shortbows tend to be popular for the quicker fire times. But in PvE you have all day so people may prefer slower varieties.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
IIRC Crossbows technically have no balance... and so inherently penalize your OF. Though I'd have to run a bunch of tests myself to see how it stacks up to the "shield penalty". Just something to consider too. This will probably change with Tinkered crossbows because it annoys me.
And even if you were technically missing 10% more with the bow versus the crossbow, keep in mind the bow has a shorter load time and therefore a bit higher potential DPS before factoring in the misses...
Keep in mind the bow use for PvP differs from the bow use for PvE... Repeaters and Shortbows tend to be popular for the quicker fire times. But in PvE you have all day so people may prefer slower varieties.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
COLDLIGHT
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 10:24 PM CDT
I really need to do more hunting. Too many logs and not enough combat.
Okies, turns out my sample was skewed. This sample isn't what I'd like either, but anyway, it turns out there isn't much difference between the load/shoot weapons. It annoys me to mess up and jump the gun, but I did. What can I say? Actually, I'm delighted bow does better than my earlier sample seemed to show.
It still makes me wonder though. Shooting a bow gives the "shield hinders slightly" message. This larger sample seems to show that any penalty really is distinctly minor, borderline noise, especially since crossbow and sling are so close.
That seems to eliminate the only complaint I had with bow. I realize others are more concerned with RT.
Okies, turns out my sample was skewed. This sample isn't what I'd like either, but anyway, it turns out there isn't much difference between the load/shoot weapons. It annoys me to mess up and jump the gun, but I did. What can I say? Actually, I'm delighted bow does better than my earlier sample seemed to show.
| Weapon | Total Shots | Misses | Accuracy |
| Bow | 329 | 31 | 91% |
| Crossbow | 211 | 14 | 93% |
| Sling | 306 | 21 | 93% |
It still makes me wonder though. Shooting a bow gives the "shield hinders slightly" message. This larger sample seems to show that any penalty really is distinctly minor, borderline noise, especially since crossbow and sling are so close.
That seems to eliminate the only complaint I had with bow. I realize others are more concerned with RT.
PRIMEQ
Re: Weapon Choices
04/30/2015 11:02 PM CDT
Good for you for recognizing the problem and correcting it. And on top of that, thank you for providing us with some good data.
COLDLIGHT
