Ok so Ill start out by saying Ive never trained combat heavy on my Moon Mage... I always went more the way of socializing and playing with magics. But as time has wore on I always feel like at my circle and knowledge level of the game that I should be in the fray helping in invasions and out hunting bigger things in my spare time. So Im going to come here and try to figure out some new methods to hunting since I feel like Ive never done it right.
Currently my combats are pretty pathetic, so bear with me...
Shield Usage: 84 93% clear (0/34) Leather Armor: 65 82% clear (0/34)
Light Chain: 23 98% clear (0/34) Light Plate: 93 59% clear (0/34)
Cloth Armor: 81 53% clear (0/34) Parry Ability: 91 75% clear (0/34)
Multi Opponent: 97 91% clear (0/34) Light Edged: 25 61% clear (0/34)
Medium Edged: 81 86% clear (0/34) Heavy Edged: 60 38% clear (0/34)
Twohanded Edged: 25 31% clear (0/34) Long Bow: 12 56% clear (0/34)
Light Thrown: 6 16% clear (0/34) Brawling: 47 50% clear (0/34)
Offhand Weapon: 8 88% clear (0/34) Evasion: 98 81% clear
Ive been in the blood wolf and sand sprite areas as of late. The sprites were a bit easier on me as far as damage goes, but blood wolves seem to teach weapons better. Which brings me to my overall issue. I can never seem to train effectively. I either have to just leave my guy in combat for hours to get things moving defensively or I spend most of my time tracking down the next thing to kill to try to move my weapons. Im at a loss as to how folks keep several weapons and all their defenses locked. I feel like Im missing some obvious trick to it. Thats the whole reason why I never hunted much, it always felt so tedious to sit and dance with critters for hours or on the converse be so overwhelmed that I could barely survive the encounter.
So if it helps for suggestions currently I use an ME slicer, brawling, an HE slicer, and one of those 2HE chain blade things (I know they dont have the best stats but the look does it for me). My armor is wonky cause Ive never decided what I like more. I used to use leather, then swapped to LP cause I like the heavy armor aspect, then they released cloth that was Sect related so Ive had that goin as well. My current armor is a full body LP with LP gauntlets and a cloth Hood. I use Seers a good deal and I also have CoL though I rarely use it. Sometimes I hide, sometimes I dont, not big on the ambushing deal. My TM is way above my physical stuff so Im in no way interested in TM right now till the rest of my combats catch up.
I feel silly for not knowing this after playing for the many years I have but I figure its better late then never.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DARKANGEL23
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 01:52 AM CDT
First of all, welcome to the ranks of the combat moon mages. :)
I see that you are keeping up all three major defenses -- that's great. Keep it up.
As for your armor, the main thing to know is to check how much it's hindering you; you'll see this when you appraise any piece of armor you are wearing. I don't recommend being more than lightly hindered. If you are more hindered, consider scaling back that LP in favor of the cloth.
Also check on your burden. Try to stay at None at all times (even after gathering all those pelts/gems/coins).
Physical stats are important. Reflex will help a great deal with defense; I consider it the most important. Agility is next, for hitting things, followed by Strength, for burden and reduced weapon RTs. Discipline is what you want for stealth. Finally, Stamina is only really good at the moment for reducing fatigue from thrown weapons, but it will probably be more important in 3.0.
Speaking of stealth, you might want to consider it. It is far easier to train at level than backtrain later, and it has a number of uses in our guild. Notably, you need it for RF to work well, if you want to sneak into higher level hunting areas to explore or extract a friend's body. Ambushing also gives you a bonus to your attack, which may help because our weapon skills tend to be low. If you do consider it, check out your armor again for its "stealth hindrance". Again, you want this to be lightly or better. Plate is hard to hide in, so you could swap it out during periods of stealth.
Use your defensive spells! I keep up SEER, COL, MAF, and Shadows. I also put up Contingency if I'm trying out a new area where I'm afraid I might kick it.
Make sure your stances are appropriate to what you're fighting. Parry at your level can be very difficult, especially vs. 4-legged creatures. You could try parrying for a while vs. a fewer number of critters (trying an Evasion 100/Parry 100/Attack 0 stance), then switching into attack mode. Always keep Evasion at 100%.
>>I can never seem to train effectively. I either have to just leave my guy in combat for hours to get things moving defensively or I spend most of my time tracking down the next thing to kill to try to move my weapons.
Here is the rub. What you really need are critters that spawn very well (blood wolves are a good example), and challenge you, but that you can still survive against. The way to do this is to follow all the advice I just gave above. Stay at no burden, keep your armor hindrance low, have a good stance, keep up your defensive spells. You could also try working some magic while in combat; that will have you standing around for a bit learning defenses in between bouts of attacking.
For the moment, you probably want to move up from wolves, now that your defenses are in the 90s. Try the snowbeasts south of Leth.
-- Player of Eyuve
I see that you are keeping up all three major defenses -- that's great. Keep it up.
As for your armor, the main thing to know is to check how much it's hindering you; you'll see this when you appraise any piece of armor you are wearing. I don't recommend being more than lightly hindered. If you are more hindered, consider scaling back that LP in favor of the cloth.
Also check on your burden. Try to stay at None at all times (even after gathering all those pelts/gems/coins).
Physical stats are important. Reflex will help a great deal with defense; I consider it the most important. Agility is next, for hitting things, followed by Strength, for burden and reduced weapon RTs. Discipline is what you want for stealth. Finally, Stamina is only really good at the moment for reducing fatigue from thrown weapons, but it will probably be more important in 3.0.
Speaking of stealth, you might want to consider it. It is far easier to train at level than backtrain later, and it has a number of uses in our guild. Notably, you need it for RF to work well, if you want to sneak into higher level hunting areas to explore or extract a friend's body. Ambushing also gives you a bonus to your attack, which may help because our weapon skills tend to be low. If you do consider it, check out your armor again for its "stealth hindrance". Again, you want this to be lightly or better. Plate is hard to hide in, so you could swap it out during periods of stealth.
Use your defensive spells! I keep up SEER, COL, MAF, and Shadows. I also put up Contingency if I'm trying out a new area where I'm afraid I might kick it.
Make sure your stances are appropriate to what you're fighting. Parry at your level can be very difficult, especially vs. 4-legged creatures. You could try parrying for a while vs. a fewer number of critters (trying an Evasion 100/Parry 100/Attack 0 stance), then switching into attack mode. Always keep Evasion at 100%.
>>I can never seem to train effectively. I either have to just leave my guy in combat for hours to get things moving defensively or I spend most of my time tracking down the next thing to kill to try to move my weapons.
Here is the rub. What you really need are critters that spawn very well (blood wolves are a good example), and challenge you, but that you can still survive against. The way to do this is to follow all the advice I just gave above. Stay at no burden, keep your armor hindrance low, have a good stance, keep up your defensive spells. You could also try working some magic while in combat; that will have you standing around for a bit learning defenses in between bouts of attacking.
For the moment, you probably want to move up from wolves, now that your defenses are in the 90s. Try the snowbeasts south of Leth.
-- Player of Eyuve
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 03:27 AM CDT
I totally forgot to post my stat levels
Strength : 29 Reflex : 30
Agility : 30 Charisma : 24
Discipline : 38 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 30 Stamina : 30
I do stealth (Hiding: 149 12%) but for some reason the whole hide stalk ambush thing just bugs me. I find it tedious and annoying. Normally when I want to work hiding I shadows up and hide in melee a few times before I kill the critter since it stops teaching me. I always stay unburdened just for the no evasion penalty. And typically I do make sure to focus evasion.
As far as our spells go I will if I go into a new area but it bugs me to have to work around the moons to put up COL so most of the time I dont bother with it unless I just happen to see the moons up as Im goin into the hunting area. I keep Seers and Shadows up almost constantly though. And Im usually tossing in a psychic shield every so often to keep magic moving so I suppose that sort of counts as a def spell heh.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Strength : 29 Reflex : 30
Agility : 30 Charisma : 24
Discipline : 38 Wisdom : 30
Intelligence : 30 Stamina : 30
I do stealth (Hiding: 149 12%) but for some reason the whole hide stalk ambush thing just bugs me. I find it tedious and annoying. Normally when I want to work hiding I shadows up and hide in melee a few times before I kill the critter since it stops teaching me. I always stay unburdened just for the no evasion penalty. And typically I do make sure to focus evasion.
As far as our spells go I will if I go into a new area but it bugs me to have to work around the moons to put up COL so most of the time I dont bother with it unless I just happen to see the moons up as Im goin into the hunting area. I keep Seers and Shadows up almost constantly though. And Im usually tossing in a psychic shield every so often to keep magic moving so I suppose that sort of counts as a def spell heh.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 06:07 AM CDT
>>And Im usually tossing in a psychic shield every so often to keep magic moving so I suppose that sort of counts as a def spell heh.
I don't know anything that would contest your PSY in the current system. I recommend getting MAF and using that for magic.
-- Player of Eyuve
I don't know anything that would contest your PSY in the current system. I recommend getting MAF and using that for magic.
-- Player of Eyuve
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 08:18 AM CDT
Are you having a harder time locking your heavier weapons? My guess is with your lowish strength, you simply aren't swinging fast enough to learn them quickly. You might want to consider breaking from them for a bit, and backtraining when you've got your strength up a bit higher. Although 30 isn't too bad.
Also, with your defenses (Evasion, Shield, Parry, Leather/Cloth/LP) you should be able to handle blood wolves with ease. My guess is you're mixing armors which is penalizing your ability to evade. What pieces are you swapping in and out?
I too found stealth to be a drag on my moonie, so dropped it. Meh. Personal choices all around.
Eyuve has the thrust of it though; find a critter that's swarmy, like blood wolves, and sit in them swinging. Swap weapons out to keep them moving, and replace armor to keep that moving. Be careful if you're getting hit with a given configuration, maybe toss a big CoL, SEERs, and MaF up before switching to your less optimal setups (say, LC and LE/2HE/Brawling).
Also, with your defenses (Evasion, Shield, Parry, Leather/Cloth/LP) you should be able to handle blood wolves with ease. My guess is you're mixing armors which is penalizing your ability to evade. What pieces are you swapping in and out?
I too found stealth to be a drag on my moonie, so dropped it. Meh. Personal choices all around.
Eyuve has the thrust of it though; find a critter that's swarmy, like blood wolves, and sit in them swinging. Swap weapons out to keep them moving, and replace armor to keep that moving. Be careful if you're getting hit with a given configuration, maybe toss a big CoL, SEERs, and MaF up before switching to your less optimal setups (say, LC and LE/2HE/Brawling).
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 08:52 AM CDT
Funny enough my heavier weapons tend to lock faster then my ME (I imagine due to the rank difference though). The issue I have with my weapons is that I kill things too fast. One rotation of feint, draw, sweep, slice, chop and Ive killed the critter. Good for learning, but I kill them too fast to get everything mindlocked. The only one that swings slow is the 2HE but I knew going in that Id have trouble swinging that thing.
Defense wise like I said before I use full body LP with LP gauntlets and a cloth hood. Honestly if I could find a way to make my LP look how I want Id just go full LP but having Cloth as a backup (as well as how it looks) keeps me from doing that. I wouldnt mind cloth armor as my main but Im worried Im going to get slaughtered by anything and everything that even slightly slips past my defenses. I have chain on all my other characters so I never went that route with my Moon Mage since it didnt entertain me. Maybe I just need to break down and find a forger to make me some really light LP or some really heavy Cloth.
Heh yea I have like half the stalking then I do hiding. I just dont get into the hide stalk thing. I love my hiding just not for the ambush ability.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Defense wise like I said before I use full body LP with LP gauntlets and a cloth hood. Honestly if I could find a way to make my LP look how I want Id just go full LP but having Cloth as a backup (as well as how it looks) keeps me from doing that. I wouldnt mind cloth armor as my main but Im worried Im going to get slaughtered by anything and everything that even slightly slips past my defenses. I have chain on all my other characters so I never went that route with my Moon Mage since it didnt entertain me. Maybe I just need to break down and find a forger to make me some really light LP or some really heavy Cloth.
Heh yea I have like half the stalking then I do hiding. I just dont get into the hide stalk thing. I love my hiding just not for the ambush ability.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
THEREALM
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 09:36 AM CDT
Your defenses are good for blood wolves, they'll teach till about 120 or so, but at 110ish I'd suggest moving to Snowbeasts.
Your armor is most likely the culprit for you getting beat up at this point. As has been said - hindrance. If you really love the heavy armor idea, go with it. But it will never be optimum for a Moon Mage. As has been stated before, MMs are under the heaviest armor hindrance penalties in the game. As a general rule, I'd never recommend anything heavier than LC for a Moon Mage. 'Lightly' hindered overall is the absolute most I'll accept on any character. But again, it's a skill-based game, and if you want to do the heavy armor thing - go for it. An armor set-up I like is 1 type coat, 1 type greaves, 1 type head/hands. OR 1 type robes, 1 type vambraces, 1 type head/hands. Both work equally well at training 3 armors at once.
When you train your weapons, are you just using ATTACK over and over? I have a feeling you're probably getting hit after a SWEEP. You could probably FEINT SWEEP to mitigate getting beat up. I'd also recommend mixing up your weapon choice some. There's a lot of redundancy in 3 different sizes of slicers, and when 3.0 comes out and we start seeing more damage-resistant critters, you might find yourself in trouble. One of my favorite things to hunt - seordhevor kartais are slice resistant. I advocate picking a blade, a blunt, and a ranged. Multiples if you really love combat. But again, I always say RP choices should outweigh mechanical advantage when planning a character, so if this is what makes you happy, go for it.
One of the easiest things to do to improve combat learning - never walk in swinging. Put up all your defensive spells, stand there and dance for a bit to lock all your defenses first. You should have parry, shield, evasion, multi, and all your armors locked before you kill your first critter. This shouldn't even take a full buff cycle. Once all your defenses are like, you can kill like crazy, keep the critter count (and thus the MO penalty) down, making those sweeps and such safer. My general combat training plan - lock defenses, lock tm, lock all my weapons (8 of them), then make sure my defenses are locked, lock tm, lock primary weapon, leave. Sometimes I'll skip the leave step and just repeat though.
If you're still having trouble with this stuff, don't be afraid to spend a few minutes preparing for combat and getting a few beneficial predictions. I'll frequently do quick predictions in combat to boost the weapon I'm about to use. Don't be afraid to use your magics to stack the odds in your favor as well. Mental Blast isn't just so you can stun things and hit them. You can use it to destroy critter's nerves, making it safer to dance with them. You can give them severe paralysis, hit them with Tezirah's Veil to reduce agi/ref, and dance with 4 far easier. It's a great combo for moving up the critter ladder too.
Ambushing is pretty boring. It's easier with a ranged and poaching. Either way, it's a necessary evil as it's the best way to train stealths. You mentioned wanting to participate in invasions, and the safest way to do that is sneaking around and killing things with TM.
Your armor is most likely the culprit for you getting beat up at this point. As has been said - hindrance. If you really love the heavy armor idea, go with it. But it will never be optimum for a Moon Mage. As has been stated before, MMs are under the heaviest armor hindrance penalties in the game. As a general rule, I'd never recommend anything heavier than LC for a Moon Mage. 'Lightly' hindered overall is the absolute most I'll accept on any character. But again, it's a skill-based game, and if you want to do the heavy armor thing - go for it. An armor set-up I like is 1 type coat, 1 type greaves, 1 type head/hands. OR 1 type robes, 1 type vambraces, 1 type head/hands. Both work equally well at training 3 armors at once.
When you train your weapons, are you just using ATTACK over and over? I have a feeling you're probably getting hit after a SWEEP. You could probably FEINT SWEEP to mitigate getting beat up. I'd also recommend mixing up your weapon choice some. There's a lot of redundancy in 3 different sizes of slicers, and when 3.0 comes out and we start seeing more damage-resistant critters, you might find yourself in trouble. One of my favorite things to hunt - seordhevor kartais are slice resistant. I advocate picking a blade, a blunt, and a ranged. Multiples if you really love combat. But again, I always say RP choices should outweigh mechanical advantage when planning a character, so if this is what makes you happy, go for it.
One of the easiest things to do to improve combat learning - never walk in swinging. Put up all your defensive spells, stand there and dance for a bit to lock all your defenses first. You should have parry, shield, evasion, multi, and all your armors locked before you kill your first critter. This shouldn't even take a full buff cycle. Once all your defenses are like, you can kill like crazy, keep the critter count (and thus the MO penalty) down, making those sweeps and such safer. My general combat training plan - lock defenses, lock tm, lock all my weapons (8 of them), then make sure my defenses are locked, lock tm, lock primary weapon, leave. Sometimes I'll skip the leave step and just repeat though.
If you're still having trouble with this stuff, don't be afraid to spend a few minutes preparing for combat and getting a few beneficial predictions. I'll frequently do quick predictions in combat to boost the weapon I'm about to use. Don't be afraid to use your magics to stack the odds in your favor as well. Mental Blast isn't just so you can stun things and hit them. You can use it to destroy critter's nerves, making it safer to dance with them. You can give them severe paralysis, hit them with Tezirah's Veil to reduce agi/ref, and dance with 4 far easier. It's a great combo for moving up the critter ladder too.
Ambushing is pretty boring. It's easier with a ranged and poaching. Either way, it's a necessary evil as it's the best way to train stealths. You mentioned wanting to participate in invasions, and the safest way to do that is sneaking around and killing things with TM.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 01:24 PM CDT
But considering all the armor and shields you are wearing or carrying, you are currently fairly hindered and your stealth is highly hindered.
That is my current hinderance level which all things considered isnt that bad (its one of the few reasons Ive stayed the course on LP). Though like I mentioned earlier I may attempt to track down a forger that will make a lighter set for me. Id actually give a little on my protection levels to keep using the LP, though like I mentioned earlier too if I found strong enough Cloth I would consider it. I just dont want to die 5 times per hunting trip.
On weapons no I never use attack. Its feint, draw, sweep, slice, chop. And sadly the couple weapons that I use are RP orientated. Ive just never been a fan of blunts. I do keep a couple piercers but when I think blunts I think of some big oaf trying to squish da bad man... so unrefined.
Sadly this is how Ive been training. So its not just something that Ive been doing wrong... I want to be good at combat it just falls into that tedious range to train. I suppose a good part of that is that all of it is tertiary for us. It just seems like Im going to have to put all my other skills on hold to train combats to a respectable level and I was hoping to avoid that.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
That is my current hinderance level which all things considered isnt that bad (its one of the few reasons Ive stayed the course on LP). Though like I mentioned earlier I may attempt to track down a forger that will make a lighter set for me. Id actually give a little on my protection levels to keep using the LP, though like I mentioned earlier too if I found strong enough Cloth I would consider it. I just dont want to die 5 times per hunting trip.
On weapons no I never use attack. Its feint, draw, sweep, slice, chop. And sadly the couple weapons that I use are RP orientated. Ive just never been a fan of blunts. I do keep a couple piercers but when I think blunts I think of some big oaf trying to squish da bad man... so unrefined.
Sadly this is how Ive been training. So its not just something that Ive been doing wrong... I want to be good at combat it just falls into that tedious range to train. I suppose a good part of that is that all of it is tertiary for us. It just seems like Im going to have to put all my other skills on hold to train combats to a respectable level and I was hoping to avoid that.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 01:40 PM CDT
>I think blunts I think of some big oaf trying to squish da bad man... so unrefined.
Honestly I'm surprised if WARHAMMER of all games haven't had a fully rendered scene of a dramatized but historical accurate comparison of a man clad in full plate against bunch of silly guys trying glancing off their swords, only to be smoothly smacked down by a rider with a WARHAMMER.
>My current armor is a full body LP
>I may attempt to track down a forger that will make a lighter set for me.
I have a mastercrafted full light plate at minimum weight via standard materials (3.31 density after lightening, IIRC) that I could let go, I realized I'm not really satisfied with it. If you're interested I believe you have my AIM.
At your strength with a full body plate I'd imagine burden is also an issue on your evasion, stack that up with fairly hindered it could be pretty rough.
Honestly I'm surprised if WARHAMMER of all games haven't had a fully rendered scene of a dramatized but historical accurate comparison of a man clad in full plate against bunch of silly guys trying glancing off their swords, only to be smoothly smacked down by a rider with a WARHAMMER.
>My current armor is a full body LP
>I may attempt to track down a forger that will make a lighter set for me.
I have a mastercrafted full light plate at minimum weight via standard materials (3.31 density after lightening, IIRC) that I could let go, I realized I'm not really satisfied with it. If you're interested I believe you have my AIM.
At your strength with a full body plate I'd imagine burden is also an issue on your evasion, stack that up with fairly hindered it could be pretty rough.
HYPERBOLIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 03:02 PM CDT
The moonstaff is not a horrible blunt weapon.
-Artificer Nilassa
You notice Kssarh trying to remain hidden while speaking.
You hear the voice of Kssarh say, "Slackers."
-Artificer Nilassa
You notice Kssarh trying to remain hidden while speaking.
You hear the voice of Kssarh say, "Slackers."
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 04:59 PM CDT
TheRealm wrote;
>MMs are under the heaviest armor hindrance penalties in the game.
Just to be as clear as possible, Moonies are under the same armor hindrance penalties as every other Armor tert guild. While I agree that heavier armors for a Moonie is unwise, as they are Survival secondary, there's nothing really stopping a Moonie from wearing a heavier armor. I think the an unmentioned hindrance is currently that he's mixing armor types; Cloth/LP. He might have significantly less hindrance if he swaps that Cloth hood out for a LP helm.
That said, yes, don't expect to train stealths as an LP user. Even LC can cramp stealths.
Darkangel wrote;
>I do keep a couple piercers but when I think blunts I think of some big oaf trying to squish da bad man... so unrefined.
Your characters image is yours to craft, but truthfully, complaining about unrefined combat habits while wearing plate armor is... silly to me. Refined combat is someone who wears a robe or leathers and is light on their feet. Big hunking musclemen wear plate armor.
Beyonddisbelief wrote;
>a man clad in full plate against bunch of silly guys trying glancing off their swords
Actually, as an aside, sword combat against armored soldiers was typically more aimed at using the swords like blunt weapons; the name of the game was swing the sword into a piece of your opponents armor, and tear that piece of armor away. Hammers could knock an armored soldier over, but would almost certainly never hurt them.
>MMs are under the heaviest armor hindrance penalties in the game.
Just to be as clear as possible, Moonies are under the same armor hindrance penalties as every other Armor tert guild. While I agree that heavier armors for a Moonie is unwise, as they are Survival secondary, there's nothing really stopping a Moonie from wearing a heavier armor. I think the an unmentioned hindrance is currently that he's mixing armor types; Cloth/LP. He might have significantly less hindrance if he swaps that Cloth hood out for a LP helm.
That said, yes, don't expect to train stealths as an LP user. Even LC can cramp stealths.
Darkangel wrote;
>I do keep a couple piercers but when I think blunts I think of some big oaf trying to squish da bad man... so unrefined.
Your characters image is yours to craft, but truthfully, complaining about unrefined combat habits while wearing plate armor is... silly to me. Refined combat is someone who wears a robe or leathers and is light on their feet. Big hunking musclemen wear plate armor.
Beyonddisbelief wrote;
>a man clad in full plate against bunch of silly guys trying glancing off their swords
Actually, as an aside, sword combat against armored soldiers was typically more aimed at using the swords like blunt weapons; the name of the game was swing the sword into a piece of your opponents armor, and tear that piece of armor away. Hammers could knock an armored soldier over, but would almost certainly never hurt them.
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 05:12 PM CDT
>Hammers could knock an armored soldier over, but would almost certainly never hurt them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer
"Swords, or the blade of a battleaxe, were likely only to give a glancing blow, losing much of the impact, especially on the high curvature of the helmet. The war hammer could deliver the full force to the target."
and pretty much any other source that talks about bludgeoning weapons will discusses the rapid obsolescence of bladed weapons being replaced by war hammers in the late medieval periods. It's due to advancement of blunt weapons that plate start to become obsolete. Gun powders were just the last straw.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer
"Swords, or the blade of a battleaxe, were likely only to give a glancing blow, losing much of the impact, especially on the high curvature of the helmet. The war hammer could deliver the full force to the target."
and pretty much any other source that talks about bludgeoning weapons will discusses the rapid obsolescence of bladed weapons being replaced by war hammers in the late medieval periods. It's due to advancement of blunt weapons that plate start to become obsolete. Gun powders were just the last straw.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 05:29 PM CDT
Huh, well, I read wrong about hammers. My bad.
I seem to recall in response to the proliferation of plate armor in the 15-16th centuries, common foot soldiers being paired, with one being equipped with a maul, and the other a sword and stake. The idea being that together, they could trip up an armored opponent, hammer him to the ground, and stake him through. That might have been a bit of florid prose in humanities though.
I seem to recall in response to the proliferation of plate armor in the 15-16th centuries, common foot soldiers being paired, with one being equipped with a maul, and the other a sword and stake. The idea being that together, they could trip up an armored opponent, hammer him to the ground, and stake him through. That might have been a bit of florid prose in humanities though.
BADGOPHER
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 06:36 PM CDT
Never heard the stake bit, but I thought that the number of stillettos and other needle-point daggers exploded due to a similar technique, where a large number of peasants would surround a plate armor wearing knight, get him grounded and helpless, and simply stab him through the gaps till he bled to death, even if they couldn't do more than scratches.
SCHULTZS3
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 06:38 PM CDT
I don't find armor hindrance all THAT bad.
My Empath was wearing all 8 armors at once and believe I was at moderate hindrance and fair stealth hindrance.
I ditched HP recently (kept LP), and changed a couple pieces around to try improving my stealth hindrance and even out the exp split, and went to somewhat hinderance and light stealth hindrance.
For the most part I find no trouble fighting fairly unbuffed, though I mostly don't move up the critter ladder till I cap stuff. It does suck for just moving into a new critter though. And the bad part is that I get pointed out almost immediately after hiding at melee. I don't stop getting pointed out after critter searches till near the cap for the critter.
As for my MM though, he wears LC, HC, Leather, cloth, and bone simultaneously (and a small shield), and his hindrance is light/light. I'm about to cap black leucro and move on though.
Nearly all my armor is storebought. It's not very protective, but it's VERY cheap and replaceable, and not all that hindering.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
My Empath was wearing all 8 armors at once and believe I was at moderate hindrance and fair stealth hindrance.
I ditched HP recently (kept LP), and changed a couple pieces around to try improving my stealth hindrance and even out the exp split, and went to somewhat hinderance and light stealth hindrance.
For the most part I find no trouble fighting fairly unbuffed, though I mostly don't move up the critter ladder till I cap stuff. It does suck for just moving into a new critter though. And the bad part is that I get pointed out almost immediately after hiding at melee. I don't stop getting pointed out after critter searches till near the cap for the critter.
As for my MM though, he wears LC, HC, Leather, cloth, and bone simultaneously (and a small shield), and his hindrance is light/light. I'm about to cap black leucro and move on though.
Nearly all my armor is storebought. It's not very protective, but it's VERY cheap and replaceable, and not all that hindering.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 06:52 PM CDT
Unhorsing was certainly a common tactic across cultures. I don't think they used hammers to unhorse, though. I'm not as familiar with the full array of European weapons but the Chinese Ji from BC ressembles more like a hooked axe (or a short-bladed scythe on a pole) to yoink a rider from the neck or some other limb off the horse.
As for using thin weapons to penetrate armor joints, while I'm sure it has happened, I am skeptical on the practicality in the heat of battle. If they were lightly armored they'd only need a few seconds of recovery before standing back up to fight. If they were in plate, most likely they'd be rendered helpless like a tipped cow (or a turtle on his back) and not require immediate attention until other nearby enemies are dealt with.
I know the misericorde was a weapon of mercy with an extremely thin and long blade that can go through armor joints to finish off an armored soldier in agony because he's mortally wounded, he can't be helped out of his armor (sometimes the impact of the bludgeoning weapon would punch the plate right into his rib cage, for example), and the misericorde is the only weapon capable of granting that mercy, which grants the weapon its name.
As for using thin weapons to penetrate armor joints, while I'm sure it has happened, I am skeptical on the practicality in the heat of battle. If they were lightly armored they'd only need a few seconds of recovery before standing back up to fight. If they were in plate, most likely they'd be rendered helpless like a tipped cow (or a turtle on his back) and not require immediate attention until other nearby enemies are dealt with.
I know the misericorde was a weapon of mercy with an extremely thin and long blade that can go through armor joints to finish off an armored soldier in agony because he's mortally wounded, he can't be helped out of his armor (sometimes the impact of the bludgeoning weapon would punch the plate right into his rib cage, for example), and the misericorde is the only weapon capable of granting that mercy, which grants the weapon its name.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/24/2012 07:12 PM CDT
>>That said, yes, don't expect to train stealths as an LP user
Ive mentioned several times that I actually train stealth just fine in combat as an LP user. I simply get bored of hide stalk ambush so I dont bother with it. I can easily hide in melee on anything I can currently hunt and still learn hiding. If I need a bit of a hand... well a 40+ mana Shadows has rarely failed me.
>>Refined combat is
In my mind refined combat is doing what Ive done for the 15 or so years Ive played. Mental Blast... then either a TKT bolt through the head or simply removing it with DO/Burn. No messy engaging in melee. But sadly this is not sustainable in the current version of the game. And I wear Light Plate... not Heavy Plate. Heavy Plate is the big muscle man armor. Look on wikipedia at brigandine or lamellar armor... Im betting its not what you think it is at all. Is it more hindering than cloth? Sure. But its nowhere near the hulking plate armor that I get the impression your envisioning.
Keep in mind that while there are bits of historical lore that some of DRs skills and items are based off of, you cant really equate real life to the in game world. Real life knights could barely move in their armor, much less braid grass, aim a bow, or any of the myriad things that people do in DR while still in their armor.
And to get back toward the topic. I dont have a hard time in that I die or even get hit all that much. I just cant seem to find a way to train that seems to fit the every locked combat skill that I see on the boards. In fact I havent died from combat in years.. well planned combat anyhow. I have been caught in invasions once or twice. I stay at no burden even when Im filled with pelts (im not a box person), I evade nearly every blow in blood wolves until I have four on me then I purposefully keep my stance at 70-80ish evasion to work parry better. I do get hits if I have 4 on me and my Seers falls but they are for the most part scratches at best unless I do nothing about it for an extended time. My problem is that when I try to work weapons I find it very slow since critters die far too fast. And overall it feels like very slow going in the advancement of my combat skills. Hence why I was trying to see if I was missing a tactic or two or if Im simply impatient. And so far I do everything mentioned for the most part which leads me to believe Im simply impatient.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Ive mentioned several times that I actually train stealth just fine in combat as an LP user. I simply get bored of hide stalk ambush so I dont bother with it. I can easily hide in melee on anything I can currently hunt and still learn hiding. If I need a bit of a hand... well a 40+ mana Shadows has rarely failed me.
>>Refined combat is
In my mind refined combat is doing what Ive done for the 15 or so years Ive played. Mental Blast... then either a TKT bolt through the head or simply removing it with DO/Burn. No messy engaging in melee. But sadly this is not sustainable in the current version of the game. And I wear Light Plate... not Heavy Plate. Heavy Plate is the big muscle man armor. Look on wikipedia at brigandine or lamellar armor... Im betting its not what you think it is at all. Is it more hindering than cloth? Sure. But its nowhere near the hulking plate armor that I get the impression your envisioning.
Keep in mind that while there are bits of historical lore that some of DRs skills and items are based off of, you cant really equate real life to the in game world. Real life knights could barely move in their armor, much less braid grass, aim a bow, or any of the myriad things that people do in DR while still in their armor.
And to get back toward the topic. I dont have a hard time in that I die or even get hit all that much. I just cant seem to find a way to train that seems to fit the every locked combat skill that I see on the boards. In fact I havent died from combat in years.. well planned combat anyhow. I have been caught in invasions once or twice. I stay at no burden even when Im filled with pelts (im not a box person), I evade nearly every blow in blood wolves until I have four on me then I purposefully keep my stance at 70-80ish evasion to work parry better. I do get hits if I have 4 on me and my Seers falls but they are for the most part scratches at best unless I do nothing about it for an extended time. My problem is that when I try to work weapons I find it very slow since critters die far too fast. And overall it feels like very slow going in the advancement of my combat skills. Hence why I was trying to see if I was missing a tactic or two or if Im simply impatient. And so far I do everything mentioned for the most part which leads me to believe Im simply impatient.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
SCHULTZS3
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 02:41 AM CDT
I had a really long post typed up, but figured it was a bit too hostile, so started over.
>Real life knights could barely move in their armor, much less braid grass, aim a bow, or any of the myriad things that people do in DR while still in their armor.
This is wrong. Yes, it would depend on the time period, the armor type, quality, and purpose, and sure, I'd concede that it was a bit more cumbersome than no armor or mail armor, but it was a far stretch from being able to "barely move", even in the heaviest, clunkiest jousting armor.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
>Real life knights could barely move in their armor, much less braid grass, aim a bow, or any of the myriad things that people do in DR while still in their armor.
This is wrong. Yes, it would depend on the time period, the armor type, quality, and purpose, and sure, I'd concede that it was a bit more cumbersome than no armor or mail armor, but it was a far stretch from being able to "barely move", even in the heaviest, clunkiest jousting armor.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 03:06 AM CDT
Depends on the knight.
If he actually trained his physical strength, yes he can move. I remember reading about a comparison of medieval knight and modern fully geared heavy infantry in the US Army, both do carry roughly about 90 pounds of gear on them. (That's 900 stones in DR terms iirc) and a trained unhorsed jouster could get on his feet and draw his sword.
If the knight was just an aristocrat either inherited his title or became knighted through other deeds and wanted himself a set of full plate just like a wannabe today sporting a Bugatti Veyron with no racing skills but just to flash around for "cred", no, he probably couldn't move in his plate.
If he actually trained his physical strength, yes he can move. I remember reading about a comparison of medieval knight and modern fully geared heavy infantry in the US Army, both do carry roughly about 90 pounds of gear on them. (That's 900 stones in DR terms iirc) and a trained unhorsed jouster could get on his feet and draw his sword.
If the knight was just an aristocrat either inherited his title or became knighted through other deeds and wanted himself a set of full plate just like a wannabe today sporting a Bugatti Veyron with no racing skills but just to flash around for "cred", no, he probably couldn't move in his plate.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 01:19 PM CDT
My statement on this comes from working at a renaissance festival for several years. That heavy clunky jousting armor is just that... and trust me even when youre in shape after a few hours in it youre exhausted. Thats why we would take breaks between the jousting and knight based demonstrations. We had to get the armor off. Keep in mind the suits we made were using standard period methods of forging so Im sure someone could most likely make a lighter suit using newer methods. But in those suits... you have no dexterity, no precision (I did try to use a bow since we thought it would be fun for the crowd and Im normally a pretty good shot and I could barely aim much less pull back in a full suit), and it will sap stamina. Also keep in mind you are wearing almost a whole extra suit of padded armor underneath the plate. The under padding always made me feel like the kid from A Christmas Story when the mom bundles him up so well he cant put his arms down.
So to sum up thats why I said barely move... sure you can move, but not even remotely in the ways people do in DR and certainly not for the length of time they do. Heh not to mention they are like steel ovens.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
So to sum up thats why I said barely move... sure you can move, but not even remotely in the ways people do in DR and certainly not for the length of time they do. Heh not to mention they are like steel ovens.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 01:52 PM CDT
Weren't you just saying that lamellar armor is fairly flexible?
I might have missed a post, but it seems you went from saying that lighter plates are reasonable to dance around in, to plate armor is akin to wearing a diving bell.
I might have missed a post, but it seems you went from saying that lighter plates are reasonable to dance around in, to plate armor is akin to wearing a diving bell.
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 02:04 PM CDT
lamellar armor isn't really plate.
If my understanding is correct he's trainign "Light Plate" the skill because in 3.0 it would be converted to Brigandine armor, because real "light plate" doesn't really deserve its own category, which is probably why he wasn't interested in the new-forged "light full plate" armor that I was offering (which actually trains Heavy Plate the skill).
Brigandine and Lamellar armor are more like studded segmented plates sewn together, rather than the large coverage wrought-iron of platemail.
If my understanding is correct he's trainign "Light Plate" the skill because in 3.0 it would be converted to Brigandine armor, because real "light plate" doesn't really deserve its own category, which is probably why he wasn't interested in the new-forged "light full plate" armor that I was offering (which actually trains Heavy Plate the skill).
Brigandine and Lamellar armor are more like studded segmented plates sewn together, rather than the large coverage wrought-iron of platemail.
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 02:04 PM CDT
Heh correct. I was responding to a couple posts up on jousting/knight plate (ie Heavy Plate) the lamellar and brigandine stuff is actually quite nice. Still not compared to say leather or cloth armors but we did have a couple guys that ran around in lamellar suits doing some of the more classic looking sword fighting (Im certain it wasnt as flashy in real life but the crowds love the showy stuff). The jousting and traditional knight heavy suits are diving bells for sure. Hence why (and I think someone said this earlier) enemies would try to trip them in battle... once you hit the ground its over unless you can manage to hang onto your sword and take out an ankle or two. The times I fell you barely feel the fall cause of the padding but it takes a good deal of effort to make it to your feet again without help.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 02:06 PM CDT
>>Brigandine and Lamellar armor are more like studded segmented plates sewn together, rather than the large coverage wrought-iron of platemail.
Exactly. Its more akin to say chainmail just with plating rather than chain links
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Exactly. Its more akin to say chainmail just with plating rather than chain links
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
RAIST
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 04:14 PM CDT
>My statement on this comes from working at a renaissance festival for several years. That heavy clunky jousting armor is just that... and trust me even when youre in shape after a few hours in it youre exhausted. Thats why we would take breaks between the jousting and knight based demonstrations. We had to get the armor off. Keep in mind the suits we made were using standard period methods of forging so Im sure someone could most likely make a lighter suit using newer methods. But in those suits... you have no dexterity, no precision (I did try to use a bow since we thought it would be fun for the crowd and Im normally a pretty good shot and I could barely aim much less pull back in a full suit), and it will sap stamina.
Jousting plate is plate, but not all plate is jousting plate. It's like saying "Damn, couldn't make those turns in my pickup, all cars suck." Jousting plate is a specialized form of plate designed for a specific activity, and tends to be much heavier and less maneuverable.
As someone who fought wearing period forged plate (if you want I could go dig up the era and location it emulated), it's entirely possible. It was damn heavy, but if it's fitted to you right, you can move with amazing freedom. Freely enough I could do a cartwheel or handstand (most of the time). Admittedly, I never tried to fire a bow, but then again, I wouldn't have hit anything even without the armor.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
Jousting plate is plate, but not all plate is jousting plate. It's like saying "Damn, couldn't make those turns in my pickup, all cars suck." Jousting plate is a specialized form of plate designed for a specific activity, and tends to be much heavier and less maneuverable.
As someone who fought wearing period forged plate (if you want I could go dig up the era and location it emulated), it's entirely possible. It was damn heavy, but if it's fitted to you right, you can move with amazing freedom. Freely enough I could do a cartwheel or handstand (most of the time). Admittedly, I never tried to fire a bow, but then again, I wouldn't have hit anything even without the armor.
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 05:41 PM CDT
Its very true I cant claim supreme knowledge. Ive only worn four armor sets that could be placed in the "plate" category (jousting plate, gothic style, lamellar, and a chest piece setup) so I cant comment that all plate is such a way. I know in the jousting plate and in the gothic style ( which was what I was speaking of and what I normally refer to as knight plate) I couldnt even raise my arms above my head due to the way the plates fit together much less do a cartwheel or handstand, heh especially so due to the weight. The lamellar I certainly had a far broader range of movement and obviously even more so with the chest piece since really all that was composed of was chainmail with plating for added protection (by far my favorite for looks and comfort). Ill be honest though I was normally so hot in those that I never went out of my way to exert effort to try tumbling in them.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
RAIST
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 05:49 PM CDT
>in the gothic style ( which was what I was speaking of and what I normally refer to as knight plate) I couldnt even raise my arms above my head due to the way the plates fit together much less do a cartwheel or handstand, heh especially so due to the weight.
That surprises me, excluding the weight, Gothic plate was still fairly mobile as far as I know. Was the armor a generic set for multiple performers or specifically fitted to you?
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
That surprises me, excluding the weight, Gothic plate was still fairly mobile as far as I know. Was the armor a generic set for multiple performers or specifically fitted to you?
Weapons for Sale:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Caraamon#Wares
Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Combat Balance List:
http://tinyurl.com/DRBalance
DARKANGEL23
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 06:27 PM CDT
For the most part fitted. The suit I used was sort of a medieval refurb. We pulled parts from an old suit that was in disrepair to save money, but all the used pieces had to be fitted to me since I was a good deal larger then the previous owner. I know we used parts of the greaves and the sabatons and faulds. The pauldron areas along with the main curiass were custom made for me though, and those are the parts I speak of that restricted movement. To get the sword over my head for a high downswing took practice to move just right. Otherwise the pauldrons just catch and restrict. I suppose if you removed those and added extra joints you might increase movement range but youd be opening gaps in the defense.
Again though those are the only suits I have experience in, its highly possible and most likely probable that there were/are full plate suits that are easy to move in. Mine sadly were not.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
Again though those are the only suits I have experience in, its highly possible and most likely probable that there were/are full plate suits that are easy to move in. Mine sadly were not.
~Tezirite Renzar Lorrani
"Power is merely a stepping stone to more power."
SCHULTZS3
Re: Combat Advice
07/25/2012 09:53 PM CDT
>Brigandine and Lamellar armor are more like studded segmented plates sewn together, rather than the large coverage wrought-iron of platemail.
Correct.
>Jousting plate is plate, but not all plate is jousting plate. It's like saying "Damn, couldn't make those turns in my pickup, all cars suck." Jousting plate is a specialized form of plate designed for a specific activity, and tends to be much heavier and less maneuverable.
This. Plate armor for use by mounted infantry (mounted infantry does not mean calvary) of the early and mid-period is light and maneuverable, because it had to be for a guy on the ground. Jousting armor is heavy and protective, because it had to be, and maneverability is optional. Combat-suited calvary armor would be somewhere in the middle (probably leaning towards jousting armor).
All are suits of plate armor. But their purpose differs, leading to design and material differences, but they're still the same thing fundamentally. It'd be like calling someone "Asian" without clarifying if they're Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese, or whatever.
>Freely enough I could do a cartwheel or handstand (most of the time). Admittedly, I never tried to fire a bow, but then again, I wouldn't have hit anything even without the armor.
I wouldn't have expected you to be able to. The first draft of my first post I did mention the drawbacks of drawing and aiming a bow with armor. Aside from considerations such as drawing the arm back at an acute angle (just going through the motion at my desk, it looks like my elbow makes a 25-30 degree angle when my fist is anchored on my cheek) with multiple layers of material, some of which being rigid metal plate, one would have trouble getting consistent anchoring when drawing a bow for consistent aim because it just wouldn't feel right compared to anchoring unarmored. It wouldn't be a problem with massed volleys in warfare, but would impede marksmanship.
Or heck, maybe they did practice archery while wearing armor. Suppose I can look that up, never occurred to me if they did or didn't, I just assumed that medieval people would practice shooting unarmored.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
Correct.
>Jousting plate is plate, but not all plate is jousting plate. It's like saying "Damn, couldn't make those turns in my pickup, all cars suck." Jousting plate is a specialized form of plate designed for a specific activity, and tends to be much heavier and less maneuverable.
This. Plate armor for use by mounted infantry (mounted infantry does not mean calvary) of the early and mid-period is light and maneuverable, because it had to be for a guy on the ground. Jousting armor is heavy and protective, because it had to be, and maneverability is optional. Combat-suited calvary armor would be somewhere in the middle (probably leaning towards jousting armor).
All are suits of plate armor. But their purpose differs, leading to design and material differences, but they're still the same thing fundamentally. It'd be like calling someone "Asian" without clarifying if they're Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese, or whatever.
>Freely enough I could do a cartwheel or handstand (most of the time). Admittedly, I never tried to fire a bow, but then again, I wouldn't have hit anything even without the armor.
I wouldn't have expected you to be able to. The first draft of my first post I did mention the drawbacks of drawing and aiming a bow with armor. Aside from considerations such as drawing the arm back at an acute angle (just going through the motion at my desk, it looks like my elbow makes a 25-30 degree angle when my fist is anchored on my cheek) with multiple layers of material, some of which being rigid metal plate, one would have trouble getting consistent anchoring when drawing a bow for consistent aim because it just wouldn't feel right compared to anchoring unarmored. It wouldn't be a problem with massed volleys in warfare, but would impede marksmanship.
Or heck, maybe they did practice archery while wearing armor. Suppose I can look that up, never occurred to me if they did or didn't, I just assumed that medieval people would practice shooting unarmored.
Lyzalian Farscribe
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Combat Advice
07/26/2012 10:38 AM CDT
>>So to sum up thats why I said barely move... sure you can move, but not even remotely in the ways people do in DR and certainly not for the length of time they do. Heh not to mention they are like steel ovens.
Everything you said is rather true, and while we have the benefit of a much broader understanding of nutrition and such, we have also lost about 40% of our bone density since the industrial revolution. Medieval man was a stouter creature, if shorter.
Everything you said is rather true, and while we have the benefit of a much broader understanding of nutrition and such, we have also lost about 40% of our bone density since the industrial revolution. Medieval man was a stouter creature, if shorter.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Combat Advice
07/26/2012 02:39 PM CDT
>Everything you said is rather true, and while we have the benefit of a much broader understanding of nutrition and such, we have also lost about 40% of our bone density since the industrial revolution. Medieval man was a stouter creature, if shorter.
wut?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7621340
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11336928
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.870/abstract
I'm not seeing anything about overall, +40% bone density.
wut?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7621340
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11336928
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.870/abstract
I'm not seeing anything about overall, +40% bone density.
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat Advice
07/27/2012 11:11 PM CDT
>>Never heard the stake bit, but I thought that the number of stillettos and other needle-point daggers exploded due to a similar technique, where a large number of peasants would surround a plate armor wearing knight, get him grounded and helpless, and simply stab him through the gaps till he bled to death, even if they couldn't do more than scratches.
From what I know, the explosion of dagger and staff type weapons happened not for this reasons but because of weapon laws. Daggers were easily concealed and a staff could be said to be a walking cane so they were generally weapons that could be taken without drawing much attention.
This is the main reason many dagger/knife techniques still remain from the olden days while many sword techniques were forgotten to time.
As far as the stake part, I can't say but I do know that many war axes and hammers were fitted with a spike on the reverse side of the weapon so that one could incapacitate the target then flip the weapon over and deliver the killing blow once other enemies were dealt with.
As to another conversation on here dealing with armor. Knight armor wasn't Foot Soldier armor. Most Knights were high ranking officials and were worth a good bit of coin to the duchy/kingdom/whatever they belonged to. This meant that they were often kept alive rather than killed on the battle field and most of their armor was highly ornamental and restrictive vs the armor of a grunt soldier. Enemy officers were often kept for ransom, its was just bad business to kill the guy in a big flashy suit of armor.
The above statement however may be different depending on what you consider a "knight".
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
From what I know, the explosion of dagger and staff type weapons happened not for this reasons but because of weapon laws. Daggers were easily concealed and a staff could be said to be a walking cane so they were generally weapons that could be taken without drawing much attention.
This is the main reason many dagger/knife techniques still remain from the olden days while many sword techniques were forgotten to time.
As far as the stake part, I can't say but I do know that many war axes and hammers were fitted with a spike on the reverse side of the weapon so that one could incapacitate the target then flip the weapon over and deliver the killing blow once other enemies were dealt with.
As to another conversation on here dealing with armor. Knight armor wasn't Foot Soldier armor. Most Knights were high ranking officials and were worth a good bit of coin to the duchy/kingdom/whatever they belonged to. This meant that they were often kept alive rather than killed on the battle field and most of their armor was highly ornamental and restrictive vs the armor of a grunt soldier. Enemy officers were often kept for ransom, its was just bad business to kill the guy in a big flashy suit of armor.
The above statement however may be different depending on what you consider a "knight".
_______________________
It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
BADGOPHER
Re: Combat Advice
07/28/2012 08:10 AM CDT
>This is the main reason many dagger/knife techniques still remain from the olden days while many sword techniques were forgotten to time.
I was honestly unaware that this happened in the West. I didn't know peasents were ever given enough freedom or cash to own/learn swords. I also had assumed it had something to do with the overabundance of iron, the continual armor revolutions and weapon revolutions, plus the fact that the vast majority of 'soldiers' were just given swords and told 'pointy end goes in other people', no real training. I thought european wars were simply massive collisions of human meat grinders, and whichever side had the better gear, tactics, and consistent supply lines etc. won, with training being a non-factor.
I didn't even know there were 'western' knife/dagger styles. I'm only really familiar with the rapier/epee/saber fighting, the irish stick style whatever it is, and germanic broadsword stuff. Though if anyone knows of a way to find anyone teaching any western combat styles I'd be interested in learning. I've wanted to somewhat learn something like that for a while, and all the google searches I do only turn up places that are 'we will teach you a system to break both legs and kill a man with a ball point pen' jersey shore extras who look like they were too stupid to make it in MMA as a punching bag.
I was honestly unaware that this happened in the West. I didn't know peasents were ever given enough freedom or cash to own/learn swords. I also had assumed it had something to do with the overabundance of iron, the continual armor revolutions and weapon revolutions, plus the fact that the vast majority of 'soldiers' were just given swords and told 'pointy end goes in other people', no real training. I thought european wars were simply massive collisions of human meat grinders, and whichever side had the better gear, tactics, and consistent supply lines etc. won, with training being a non-factor.
I didn't even know there were 'western' knife/dagger styles. I'm only really familiar with the rapier/epee/saber fighting, the irish stick style whatever it is, and germanic broadsword stuff. Though if anyone knows of a way to find anyone teaching any western combat styles I'd be interested in learning. I've wanted to somewhat learn something like that for a while, and all the google searches I do only turn up places that are 'we will teach you a system to break both legs and kill a man with a ball point pen' jersey shore extras who look like they were too stupid to make it in MMA as a punching bag.
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: Combat Advice
07/28/2012 11:11 AM CDT
I'm not familiar with this area of history but my guess is fallenshadows is likely talking about the end of medieval period and beginnings of renaissance period where there's much more emphasis on urban life than serfdom and where prototype of the middle-class may have began.
Regardless of time though I don't think the right to bear arms was at all a "freedom" issue until later and later as they became more "civilized". Back then I would venture to guess that its much plain common sense that your serfs would and should have their own arms to fend themselves because it's not like they had robust police systems with telephones and abundance of patrol vehicles for rapid response times to a crime. Town guards would be in the city (What is a "city" like during medieval times anyway? was it just the area around the keep within the walls?) and patrols were scarce at best.
Which reminds me of the "Cinquedea" which I read on wiki recently while looking up weapons in Crafting books (google wasn't turning up anything for me for the way it is spelled in the books, though). It's described as a "civilian" short sword, but judging from the size and design I'd have to wager that's a middle-class thing. But having no real edge and designed for thrusting I can imagine its probably the biggest "Street-legal" weapon of the renaissance period for people's own protection.
I never had a reference for weapon prices but I'd venture to guess that unlike in.. every game ever existed (even D&D when you start slapping on enhancements), a dagger or even a short sword is far more affordable for even a peasant compared to the effort, material, and time it would take to create an armor. After all, bandits were just peasants who felt their life was so deep in the gutters that they'd better off pick up something pointy and rob.
A history professor I've had mentioned that a suit of armor relative to the wealth levels of the past comes out to roughly the value of a car. And with the horrid wealth distribution of the past you'd probably see very few "Honda Accords" but many "used Fords" "shared buses" and the plate-clad "Mercedes" up top
Regardless of time though I don't think the right to bear arms was at all a "freedom" issue until later and later as they became more "civilized". Back then I would venture to guess that its much plain common sense that your serfs would and should have their own arms to fend themselves because it's not like they had robust police systems with telephones and abundance of patrol vehicles for rapid response times to a crime. Town guards would be in the city (What is a "city" like during medieval times anyway? was it just the area around the keep within the walls?) and patrols were scarce at best.
Which reminds me of the "Cinquedea" which I read on wiki recently while looking up weapons in Crafting books (google wasn't turning up anything for me for the way it is spelled in the books, though). It's described as a "civilian" short sword, but judging from the size and design I'd have to wager that's a middle-class thing. But having no real edge and designed for thrusting I can imagine its probably the biggest "Street-legal" weapon of the renaissance period for people's own protection.
I never had a reference for weapon prices but I'd venture to guess that unlike in.. every game ever existed (even D&D when you start slapping on enhancements), a dagger or even a short sword is far more affordable for even a peasant compared to the effort, material, and time it would take to create an armor. After all, bandits were just peasants who felt their life was so deep in the gutters that they'd better off pick up something pointy and rob.
A history professor I've had mentioned that a suit of armor relative to the wealth levels of the past comes out to roughly the value of a car. And with the horrid wealth distribution of the past you'd probably see very few "Honda Accords" but many "used Fords" "shared buses" and the plate-clad "Mercedes" up top
FALLENSHADOWS
Re: Combat Advice
07/30/2012 11:48 PM CDT
>>I'm not familiar with this area of history but my guess is fallenshadows is likely talking about the end of medieval period and beginnings of renaissance period where there's much more emphasis on urban life than serfdom and where prototype of the middle-class may have began.
This is more or less what I was referencing, I wasn't mentioning a specific time period as much of an evolution over time.
>>I was honestly unaware that this happened in the West. I didn't know peasents were ever given enough freedom or cash to own/learn swords. I also had assumed it had something to do with the overabundance of iron, the continual armor revolutions and weapon revolutions, plus the fact that the vast majority of 'soldiers' were just given swords and told 'pointy end goes in other people', no real training. I thought european wars were simply massive collisions of human meat grinders, and whichever side had the better gear, tactics, and consistent supply lines etc. won, with training being a non-factor.
>>I didn't even know there were 'western' knife/dagger styles. I'm only really familiar with the rapier/epee/saber fighting, the irish stick style whatever it is, and germanic broadsword stuff. Though if anyone knows of a way to find anyone teaching any western combat styles I'd be interested in learning. I've wanted to somewhat learn something like that for a while, and all the google searches I do only turn up places that are 'we will teach you a system to break both legs and kill a man with a ball point pen' jersey shore extras who look like they were too stupid to make it in MMA as a punching bag.
Ehh, half truth. The kingdoms had standing armies and knights were trained in weapons from an early age they were more or less born and bred soldiers. Though it had a slightly different meaning then. If you research it there are many groups that still offer European sword training but these were more or less lost to time and these groups had started from piecing together old books that show some basics but the more complicated stuff is pretty much lost at this point.
People in the standing army were very well versed in combat and it wasn't anything like "pointy end goes in other people". However, peasant militia which would take part in battles often were simply like you think it is. But don't be fooled these weren't soldiers and shouldn't be treated as such. The Crusades did a number on the history of European sword fighting since it basically was, fight for god, pointy thing goes into badguy.
That being said in medieval times most peasants actually owned swords and had some basic training with them. The same way that in certain parts of the US(particularly desolate areas with lots of coyotes) most people own guns and are taught by their parents from a young age how to shoot with them.
Western knife styles aren't really called that, so it might be hard to look for them. Theres also no real teachers for it, you find it in many european CQC military training. If you research into that you'll find some of the CQC knife maneuvers have been around since early Medieval times and have evolved over time.
Best thing to do is find the group of people that are trying to revive the old european styles for show and read up on them. European sword fighting techniques(not the fencing kind) were very advanced at least as advanced as Eastern techniques, but like I said forgotten to time for the most part. Kingdom of Heaven the movie shows abit of this as the main characters father shows him how to use the Falcon Stance and at one point bashes him in the face with the pummel of his sword after parrying an attack, another common technique. Every part of the weapon was used from the flat side of the blade to the pommel.
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It is impossible to strive for the heroic life. The title of hero is bestowed by the survivors upon the fallen, who themselves know nothing of heroism.
-Johan Huizinga
The Light is Crimson through the Darkness.
