I don't think shock has anything to do with an Empath's soul, and I don't think there's really much in the way of lore for Empaths dealing with the soul. I could be wrong though.

So, it sounds like this spell basically reduces shock effects temporarily, which to me, sort of eliminates the purpose of shock for Empaths. Other tools could be better suited for maybe dealing with shock, like GoL. Also, I'm not sure at all how the light source is going to be useful.

For what it's worth, I've had a plan for a "temp remove shock at the cost of unavoidable shock afterward" spell for quite awhile now, though with a much different lore wrapper. Just a matter of finding the bandwidth to formally propose and pursue it.

-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino

> For what it's worth, I've had a plan for a "temp remove shock at the cost of unavoidable shock afterward" spell for quite awhile now, though with a much different lore wrapper. Just a matter of finding the bandwidth to formally propose and pursue it.

That's exciting. Are you bribable? Cookies. Coffee? What's your vice?

<< plan for a "temp remove shock at the cost of unavoidable shock afterward" spell...Convincing myself and others it's a good idea.>>

Hmm, I'm not so sure it is a good idea, personally. Shock is supposed to be a big deal, and I think we might already be getting too far into the realm of trivializing it as it is. I don't mind making it an actual playable state and having some tools available for those who would pursue it, but there is such a thing as making it too user friendly. If anything, I'd say we need some incentives to avoid Shock rather than ways to mitigate it. With as scarce as healing opportunities are (and have been for a very long time), Empathy isn't really doing much in the first place to make people think twice about sacrificing it. It would be cool to have some sort of spell or something that's only available with no or very minimal Shock, but alas I can't think of what it might do at the moment.

Thanks,
-Life Weaver Karthor

> I don't mind making it an actual playable state and having some tools available for those who would pursue it, but there is such a thing as making it too user friendly.

I get the pull from the purist. You've played an empath for decades with these restrictions, and you personally don't like them pulled now, even if other restrictions made it an uncommon appearance. I too love the idea of the empath. I like the playability. I like utility. I like the lore. I like the "hero moments." We just have to admit that the game has changed and is changing. More options are needed in a way that doesn't mean you effectively have to pick another class. Sitting around all day for a few people to stagger into the infirmary while a half-dozen empaths fight over them isn't as appealing as it once was.

Then you also have DR being what it always was. DR is combat. Combat is not an ancillary part of DR, it is the central part of the mechanics and play of the game. It drives loot, treasure, TDPs, quests, invasions, and even the special/paid events. That's before we even touch that almost every support system in the game is built to eventually drive to or assist combat, or that it's the one-stop-shop for ending CvC problems (shouldn't be, but is). We're beyond the point where we should limit ourselves to sub-par abilities or as glorified commoners.

Let's put this into perspective:
- Imagine if a moon mage that killed something now lost the ability to gate, RS, or otherwise use their confound?
- Imagine if a trader that killed something lost the ability to sell pouches, sell bundles, or run trader shops?
- Imagine if a cleric that killed something now lost the ability to res or tend to the dead or use their rituals?
- Imagine if a bard that killed something now lost access to all utility based cyclics or instrument playing.
- Imagine if a paladin killed something and they lost the ability to cast any divine spells.

And the list goes on. In modern DR, this binary option is too punitive.

I'm not asking for empaths to be uber killers. They aren't. They wouldn't be. I'm willing to acknowledge that there are restrictions to self-healing/utility while you have offensive stance enabled, and there are ways to quickly toggle to a healing stance (even if it meant you couldn't quick toggle back). That's fine. It's flavor, and it's a choice.

> With as scarce as healing opportunities are (and have been for a very long time),

That's kind of the point. The game is centered around combat. Many players, unfortunately, have their own empaths or ways to work around them entirely. I can't even tell you how many times I've been yelled at for actually healing people who are standing around wounded. Why? Because their pet empath/friend now has less experience. It's a ridiculous state of the game, but it is the game.

> Empathy isn't really doing much in the first place to make people think twice about sacrificing it.

If the skill has no value then we should have ways to turn it off without great sacrifice. I think it still does have value, but it's intermittent. I think permanently penalizing yourself for wanting to help other players is also unreasonable in the current state of DR.

> Making shock something that can be reversed entirely in a single spell seems to be minimizing the purpose of it too much imo.

You're ignoring the additional penalties on the spell that would prevent you from taking more aggressive action for a while, but still... The empaths who don't like it or are overly masochistic can continue to do everything just as they do today. There's no downside except from the purists who argue that empaths should be forever neutered.

>I get the pull from the purist.

I don't think you're understanding the point, because the point is DISTINCTLY not 'Empaths shouldn't participate in combat'. The point is distinctly that 'Empathic combat is a choice around whether to engage in Shock, and that choice has consequence'. The capacity to ignore that consequence is what's being discussed. And, no disrespect meant, but I had to convince you after great many a discussion to engage in Empathic combat yourself :)

>Let's put this into perspective:

None of those things relate at all to the lore or history of the guilds you outlined.

> I'm willing to acknowledge that there are restrictions to self-healing/utility while you have offensive stance enabled, and there are ways to quickly toggle to a healing stance (even if it meant you couldn't quick toggle back). That's fine. It's flavor, and it's a choice.

Yes, but the choice is 'Do I engage in combat behavior that leads to shock and deal with the consequences, or, do I engage in combat behavior that does NOT lead to shock?'. When you take away that choice, you've effectively made it a non-choice.

>Why? Because their pet empath/friend now has less experience. It's a ridiculous state of the game, but it is the game.

Again, ignore those players, and it's A ) their loss for not knowing how to play Empaths, and B ) not much skin off your back because you can always go hunt.

>We're beyond the point where we should limit ourselves to sub-par abilities or as glorified commoners.

I don't know how you remotely reached this conclusion, because I think it's woefully inaccurate.

> I don't know how you remotely reached this conclusion, because I think it's woefully inaccurate.

For what it's worth, we've gone around and around on this. You've showed me your strategy. I've used it. GS is functional. Link is function. They're a major pain to deal with, and they're just too slow.

Pointing a GS at something, maybe casting vigor on it, and weaving and bobbing and casting a lethargy here or there is just not cutting it. Parring doesn't train well. It still takes forever to kill something at level, and it's a complete nightmare to try to direct an army in this game. Even 1 on 1, there's a reason empaths weren't doing so well in the duskruin arena, and it's not because they need to learn how to play.

My question to all of the detractors is this. Why do you care if it won't change the way you play the game or impact you in any negative way? We're not talking about toggling the moons on and off. We're not talking about forcing empaths into combat. We're talking about using burins and spellbooks to store sigils or introducing sorcery spells. It has it's own pros and cons. Options are good.

> I suppose heres a counter point example that may explain my voews on this - what if pathways didnt drain charge? What if using trans spells or raising zombies didnt cause do?

This is apples and oranges. A better comparison would be to say that by using a pathway you could no longer cast spells from the opposing domain, and you can't use a familiar until you do a quest to turn that part of your class back on or if you wait some number of real life days based on how long you kept the pathway up.

> If the only downside of building shock was you had to cast a ritual to turn shock off when you wanted to heal people, then being shocked isnt really a bad thing.

This is a penalty. You now have to use spell slots to overcome shock, and there are ways to balance it. Maybe have it reduce a certain percentage of shock up to 80% cap. This would still give non-shocked empaths a bonus to spell casting or even more spells to use.

> Options ARE good, but so are choices.

What choice do you have now? You can either avoid shock or remove both your social skills and your ability to circle in the guild you chose.

> Warmies dont have to use elemental weapons, butthey do need to train summonong.

And empaths don't have to shock themselves, but they could. I want to point something out. Shocked empaths can not learn empathy. According to elanthipedia, that means classes, manipulation, or healing. They just can't. Shocking your empath means you are stuck in your guild. You will not and cannot progress any higher than this skill (the highest single skill requirement in the game, tied with traders) will allow.

So more "I want to become fully shocked, but don't want to be stunned over and over while punching a rat in order to get there, so have me pay for it later"?

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Uzmam! The Chairman will NOT be pleased to know you're trying to build outside of approved zones. I'd hate for you to be charged the taxes needed to have this place re-zoned. Head for the manor if you're feeling creative.

> The idea I'm contemplating wasn't just "shut off shock," it was "shut off shock temporarily, take a guaranteed large Shock hit when its non-refreshable duration expires."

That's unfortunate. So the idea is that you have some small amount of time to hunt, and then you get a huge burst of shock, and then you sit around twiddling your thumbs while it drains?

> I don't see us removing too many more of shock's teeth. We've gone about as far down that path as we should, I think. That's not to say I don't think we should ever further explore the shocked state, but that it is indeed, a choice. Apple or orange, but not both.

Disappointing, but thanks for the response.

> I do like Armifer's notional spell, where you're not actually avoiding the consequences of your actions, but instead sort-of-kind-of delaying them with a guaranteed consequence for doing so.

It's interesting, and I wouldn't say no to more spell dev. I don't see the use case other than impromptu PvP though.

>This is apples and oranges. A better comparison would be to say that by using a pathway you could no longer cast spells from the opposing domain, and you can't use a familiar until you do a quest to turn that part of your class back on or if you wait some number of real life days based on how long you kept the pathway up.

I don't think it is apples to oranges, but fine, using your example, sure, your spell proposal sounds like saying 'what if youre aligned fire, and water spells didn't diminish your charge?'. The point is that charge is SUPPOSED to build when you cast what you're aligned to and diminish when you cast whatever the opposite is (or have set as your opposite). That's a choice.

>This is a penalty. You now have to use spell slots to overcome shock, and there are ways to balance it. Maybe have it reduce a certain percentage of shock up to 80% cap. This would still give non-shocked empaths a bonus to spell casting or even more spells to use.

Again, this spell would only be useful to Empaths who are shocked, and there are already tools in place for those Empaths, and for those Empaths to mitigate shock. I'm not against the idea a spell that as Armifer put it, delays your shock, but I find the notion of a spell that temporarily turns off your shock to be 'going about it the wrong way'.

>What choice do you have now? You can either avoid shock or remove both your social skills and your ability to circle in the guild you chose.

You have the choice to avoid shock or not avoid shock. If you choose to not avoid shock, there are consequences. If you choose to avoid shock, there are consequences. I think the problem you're having is that you don't like either of those consequences, which frankly, is why I think the advice to try a different guild is apropos. Many guilds have this sort of choice that is made pertaining to characters, though it is perhaps most evident in Empaths, Necromancers, and Moonies. Not surprisingly, all three guilds have tools available for dealing with those choices, but none of them have options to completely ignore the consequences of those choices.

> Shocked empaths can not learn empathy.

Fully insensitive Empaths cannot learn Empathy (state of shock is not a binary). That is intentional. Maybe you should take a moment to ask yourself what Shock is, and what Empathy is? And, I feel I should remind you, there are (or were at least) a number of Empaths in years past who had decided they were going to forego circling for very long periods of time whilst completely insensitive. Maybe you could look at it as part of your characters RP.

> I don't see the use case other than impromptu PvP though.

Why? In PvP as an Empath, you'd be a fool to use your weapons unless it wasn't a challenge in the first place, so the only thing this will give you is unfettered access to TM damage dealing, for which using Paralyze is still an option.

I'm all about adding PvP utility to Empathy or maybe spells that reduce the stuns (but not the shock) from shock causing actions, even if it results in a bigger shock hit later. Maybe making Armifers proposed spell a mid range Empathy ability - MANIPULATE SELF SENSIBILITIES or something, which reduces or eliminates stuns from shocks, and stores all shock build over a short window, say, 5-10m, and gradually applies it over the course of the follow hour?

>>Delver: Fully insensitive Empaths can learn Empathy through anatomy charts, although that is not efficient in the least, and the last I checked, through teaching since you no longer need to make an Empathic link to be taught Empathy.

Even though empathy classes no longer require an empathic link, a completely insensitive Empath can't teach or listen to empathy. (With the exception of the paltry amount of empathy experience from anatomy charts, being completely insensitive effectively locks you out of empathy training.)

https://elanthipedia.play.net/Empathic_shock#Consequences_of_Shock

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"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer

Empath new player guide: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_new_player_guide

Empath hunting ladder: https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Empath_hunting_ladder