I know this is very very low priority with the changes to combat 3.0 and magic 3.0 coming up, but are we still impossibly far away from being able to shift Race?
Obviously it would need to be purely cosmetic to prevent abuse with stat training, and I know that the last time I asked this question I was told that with the current system, its impossible to show one race, and be another.
I was wondering however, that with all the internal restructuring thats been going on, if theres a chance that in the realm of "soon" we might be able to shift races as an option?
THIFE
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 12:38 PM CDT
>>Thife: I know this is very very low priority with the changes to combat 3.0 and magic 3.0 coming up, but are we still impossibly far away from being able to shift Race? Obviously it would need to be purely cosmetic to prevent abuse with stat training
I hope not. The image of a Gnome with Gor'Tog stat bonuses and penalties is just too jarring.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
I hope not. The image of a Gnome with Gor'Tog stat bonuses and penalties is just too jarring.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
THIFE
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 12:42 PM CDT
Why? You'd have no idea looking at someone how much they pay for their tdps.
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 12:48 PM CDT
>>Thife: Why? You'd have no idea looking at someone how much they pay for their tdps.
Because it would result in this kind of stupidity: "I wanted to be a Gor'Tog Moon Mage for RP reasons, but I don't like their stats, so I rolled an Elothean Moon Mage and had my character's race shifted to Gor'Tog."
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
Because it would result in this kind of stupidity: "I wanted to be a Gor'Tog Moon Mage for RP reasons, but I don't like their stats, so I rolled an Elothean Moon Mage and had my character's race shifted to Gor'Tog."
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
DELVER
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 12:54 PM CDT
A visual change, not an actual change of race. It would have no effect on stats, similar to how age shift is now handled.
ROCKYWILLIAMS1479
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 12:55 PM CDT
Let me preface this by stating for various reasons, many mechanical, I doubt this will ever happen.
That said, I think that it could lead to bad RP, but could also add a bit of customization to your character. I look at it less as "I want to be a 'tog moon mage w/o the hindrance to my mental stats" and more "My 'tog is physically frail for his race, but has a natural bend towards intelligence".
Could this lead to stupid RP, yes. But, it could lead to more customization of characters too. It's a better alternative, I think, than allowing racial shifts to also change stat modifiers. Turn into a 'tog to train strength, then shift race to another to train agility...
Like I said though, I don't see it happening. Can't imagine it would be easy to code, and the potential for abuse / hassle just probably wouldn't be worth it in the GM's minds. That said, watch it get announced next week ;)
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
That said, I think that it could lead to bad RP, but could also add a bit of customization to your character. I look at it less as "I want to be a 'tog moon mage w/o the hindrance to my mental stats" and more "My 'tog is physically frail for his race, but has a natural bend towards intelligence".
Could this lead to stupid RP, yes. But, it could lead to more customization of characters too. It's a better alternative, I think, than allowing racial shifts to also change stat modifiers. Turn into a 'tog to train strength, then shift race to another to train agility...
Like I said though, I don't see it happening. Can't imagine it would be easy to code, and the potential for abuse / hassle just probably wouldn't be worth it in the GM's minds. That said, watch it get announced next week ;)
DRPrime - Celeres Turrance
DRPrime - NecroUnknown
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 01:15 PM CDT
>>Delver: A visual change, not an actual change of race. It would have no effect on stats, similar to how age shift is now handled.
I understand what Thife was suggesting. You would keep the stats of the race that you rolled but would get the RP benefits of being another race. (Essentially, you could make any race have the stats of any other race by rolling the race that has the desired stats and then shifting to the race that you actually want to be.)
Essentially, people would regard shift as an OOC way to get another race's stats. Being shifted from Human to S'Kra wouldn't really make you a S'Kra Mur, but players would pretend that their characters had always been S'Kra (much as they did when age shifts were broken and people used them as an OOC way to get a particular birthday).
>>Rockywilliams1479: That said, I think that it could lead to bad RP, but could also add a bit of customization to your character. I look at it less as "I want to be a 'tog moon mage w/o the hindrance to my mental stats" and more "My 'tog is physically frail for his race, but has a natural bend towards intelligence".
I can see how this might be desirable, but I think that the stat bonuses and penalties are there for a reason. Otherwise, every race would be stat-neutral, and it would be totally up to the player. (Actually, I think that the stat-neutral approach would be better than forcing players to retcon their race.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
I understand what Thife was suggesting. You would keep the stats of the race that you rolled but would get the RP benefits of being another race. (Essentially, you could make any race have the stats of any other race by rolling the race that has the desired stats and then shifting to the race that you actually want to be.)
Essentially, people would regard shift as an OOC way to get another race's stats. Being shifted from Human to S'Kra wouldn't really make you a S'Kra Mur, but players would pretend that their characters had always been S'Kra (much as they did when age shifts were broken and people used them as an OOC way to get a particular birthday).
>>Rockywilliams1479: That said, I think that it could lead to bad RP, but could also add a bit of customization to your character. I look at it less as "I want to be a 'tog moon mage w/o the hindrance to my mental stats" and more "My 'tog is physically frail for his race, but has a natural bend towards intelligence".
I can see how this might be desirable, but I think that the stat bonuses and penalties are there for a reason. Otherwise, every race would be stat-neutral, and it would be totally up to the player. (Actually, I think that the stat-neutral approach would be better than forcing players to retcon their race.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
DELVER
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 01:52 PM CDT
>You would keep the stats of the race that you rolled but would get the RP benefits of being another race. (Essentially, you could make any race have the stats of any other race by rolling the race that has the desired stats and then shifting to the race that you actually want to be.)
Those two are not the same. You maintain your original racial stat make-up. RP has nothing to do with racial stats.
OOC the game still sees you as a Gnome even though the others see you as a Gor'Tog.
I can shift someone to look the maximum racial age but the game still sees their original birth year.
We've already been told a flat out no to race shift that would change stat make-up. It would have to be strictly a visual change if it was even worth coding.
Those two are not the same. You maintain your original racial stat make-up. RP has nothing to do with racial stats.
OOC the game still sees you as a Gnome even though the others see you as a Gor'Tog.
I can shift someone to look the maximum racial age but the game still sees their original birth year.
We've already been told a flat out no to race shift that would change stat make-up. It would have to be strictly a visual change if it was even worth coding.
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 01:56 PM CDT
>>Delver: You maintain your original racial stat make-up. RP has nothing to do with racial stats. OOC the game still sees you as a Gnome even though the others see you as a Gor'Tog.
I don't think you understand my objection. I get that Thife's proposed race shift would be purely cosmetic and would have no effect on stats. What I am saying is that players would abuse this as a way to create characters with another race's stat bonuses and penalties.
In your example, the person could role-play as a Gor'Tog but be treated mechanically like a Gnome. (Or you could roll a Human and then be shifted to a Gnome to have a Gnome character with Human stat neutrality.)
>>Delver: I can shift someone to look the maximum racial age but the game still sees their original birth year.
Age shifts used to work by altering the date of birth. (There were even month and day shifts that people used just to get a different birthday.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
I don't think you understand my objection. I get that Thife's proposed race shift would be purely cosmetic and would have no effect on stats. What I am saying is that players would abuse this as a way to create characters with another race's stat bonuses and penalties.
In your example, the person could role-play as a Gor'Tog but be treated mechanically like a Gnome. (Or you could roll a Human and then be shifted to a Gnome to have a Gnome character with Human stat neutrality.)
>>Delver: I can shift someone to look the maximum racial age but the game still sees their original birth year.
Age shifts used to work by altering the date of birth. (There were even month and day shifts that people used just to get a different birthday.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
THIFE
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 02:58 PM CDT
I don't think that sounds unreasonable. If I want to make the strongest moon mage I can, and for my playstyle that requires I play an elothean, I don't think that me wanting to RP as another race is unreasonable. If I like the lore and culture of a particular race, why shouldn't I be able to RP with it, while mechanically choosing the race with the statistical acumen I prefer?
DR-RAESH
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 03:06 PM CDT
>>If I like the lore and culture of a particular guild, why shouldn't I be able to RP with it, while mechanically choosing the guild with the abilities I prefer?
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DELVER
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 03:58 PM CDT
>I don't think you understand my objection. I get that Thife's proposed race shift would be purely cosmetic and would have no effect on stats. What I am saying is that players would abuse this as a way to create characters with another race's stat bonuses and penalties.
I understand your objection. However, you were mixing RPing a different race with shifting to get another races stats. I also know how age shift used to work, used to being the operative wording.
If it doesn't affect the mechanical aspects why is it so wrong to play yourself off as another race? Think of it like a glamour, disguise or misdirection aspect through shifting.
I understand your objection. However, you were mixing RPing a different race with shifting to get another races stats. I also know how age shift used to work, used to being the operative wording.
If it doesn't affect the mechanical aspects why is it so wrong to play yourself off as another race? Think of it like a glamour, disguise or misdirection aspect through shifting.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 04:05 PM CDT
>>If it doesn't affect the mechanical aspects why is it so wrong to play yourself off as another race?
What you're essentially advocating is that instead of choosing a race and having a set of bonuses and penalties that go along with the culture, stigma, etc of that race, you would like to let all players be any race for the culture/stigma/etc, and then choose from a list of sets of bonuses and penalties.
As an example, let's say I want to play a barbarian, and decide that I want to play a halfling barbarian. Under your model, I would roll up as Gor'Tog and then get shifted to be Halfling, giving the outward perception that I'm a halfling but allowing me very cheap strength and stamina training.
This is essentially letting you arbitrarily pair the RP aspects of any race with the stat bonuses of any other race.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
What you're essentially advocating is that instead of choosing a race and having a set of bonuses and penalties that go along with the culture, stigma, etc of that race, you would like to let all players be any race for the culture/stigma/etc, and then choose from a list of sets of bonuses and penalties.
As an example, let's say I want to play a barbarian, and decide that I want to play a halfling barbarian. Under your model, I would roll up as Gor'Tog and then get shifted to be Halfling, giving the outward perception that I'm a halfling but allowing me very cheap strength and stamina training.
This is essentially letting you arbitrarily pair the RP aspects of any race with the stat bonuses of any other race.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
DELVER
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 04:12 PM CDT
I see your point Socharis. I'm looking more at it approaching shape shifting, which is in the lore.
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 04:34 PM CDT
>>Thife: If I like the lore and culture of a particular race, why shouldn't I be able to RP with it, while mechanically choosing the race with the statistical acumen I prefer?
Because the lore and culture of a race includes its physiology and mental makeup. If you want to be dramatically stronger or smarter than other members of your race, it should require more work (which is reflected by the number of TDPs that it costs to train stats).
If you're going to give people the ability to mix and match races and stat bonuses, you might as well make every race stat-neutral (like Humans). I think that would be preferable to the awkward fiction of the "Elothean trapped in a Gor'Tog's body." However, I still prefer the current system, which forces players to work within some constraints for the races that they choose.
>>Delver: If it doesn't affect the mechanical aspects why is it so wrong to play yourself off as another race? Think of it like a glamour, disguise or misdirection aspect through shifting.
There is a difference between disguising yourself (the character is an Elothean who is trying to pass himself off as a Gor'Tog) and retconning your race (the character is a Gor'Tog; you want other players to ignore the fact that he was rolled as an Elothean). The latter is the sort of idiocy that I'd prefer not to introduce.
If there is some system to disguise your race, it should be skill-based (with a chance of being seen through) instead of the 100% auto-success of race shifting. It should also be exceedingly difficult to pass yourself off as a member of a race that looks much different from your own.
Lore-wise, it would be possible for someone with godlike empathy to shift a person's race, but due to the potential for abuse that GM Socharis and I have explained, I don't think that this ability should be given to PC Empaths.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
Because the lore and culture of a race includes its physiology and mental makeup. If you want to be dramatically stronger or smarter than other members of your race, it should require more work (which is reflected by the number of TDPs that it costs to train stats).
If you're going to give people the ability to mix and match races and stat bonuses, you might as well make every race stat-neutral (like Humans). I think that would be preferable to the awkward fiction of the "Elothean trapped in a Gor'Tog's body." However, I still prefer the current system, which forces players to work within some constraints for the races that they choose.
>>Delver: If it doesn't affect the mechanical aspects why is it so wrong to play yourself off as another race? Think of it like a glamour, disguise or misdirection aspect through shifting.
There is a difference between disguising yourself (the character is an Elothean who is trying to pass himself off as a Gor'Tog) and retconning your race (the character is a Gor'Tog; you want other players to ignore the fact that he was rolled as an Elothean). The latter is the sort of idiocy that I'd prefer not to introduce.
If there is some system to disguise your race, it should be skill-based (with a chance of being seen through) instead of the 100% auto-success of race shifting. It should also be exceedingly difficult to pass yourself off as a member of a race that looks much different from your own.
Lore-wise, it would be possible for someone with godlike empathy to shift a person's race, but due to the potential for abuse that GM Socharis and I have explained, I don't think that this ability should be given to PC Empaths.
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
DRTYPRIOR
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 04:39 PM CDT
>> I see your point Socharis. I'm looking more at it approaching shape shifting, which is in the lore.
You are one voice. Put yourself in the designer/developer's shoes for a minute, and start to analyze how this might affect the entire player-base.
You are one voice. Put yourself in the designer/developer's shoes for a minute, and start to analyze how this might affect the entire player-base.
DR-MELETE
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/13/2011 09:54 PM CDT
>>This is essentially letting you arbitrarily pair the RP aspects of any race with the stat bonuses of any other race.
To me, this would be rather jarring RP-wise. I know it might be possible lore-wise, but I really want shift to be an IC thing, and not a pseudo-IC thing like it has often been in the past. Allowing more features to be available in the CM was a great first step, but this might be a a bit of a step back, as I agree that many players would be unable to resist the temptation of pretending to have always been a {race} instead of owning to having been shifted to look like one.
I'm not ruling this out, but even if the Powers That Be gave it the okay (and who knows if that would happen) I'm still not really enamored of the likely consequences of such a change.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
To me, this would be rather jarring RP-wise. I know it might be possible lore-wise, but I really want shift to be an IC thing, and not a pseudo-IC thing like it has often been in the past. Allowing more features to be available in the CM was a great first step, but this might be a a bit of a step back, as I agree that many players would be unable to resist the temptation of pretending to have always been a {race} instead of owning to having been shifted to look like one.
I'm not ruling this out, but even if the Powers That Be gave it the okay (and who knows if that would happen) I'm still not really enamored of the likely consequences of such a change.
Melete
[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face
DELVER
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/14/2011 08:11 PM CDT
Would the concept be workable if:
~ it was limited in duration?
~ restricted to the race of the shifter?
~ resulted in both social and divine outrage to both the shifter and shiftee?
~ was detectable?
Yes, I'm just one voice trying to further explore another person's idea. I hold no other illusions beyond that.
Would a mask changing one's features when worn be more acceptable?
~ it was limited in duration?
~ restricted to the race of the shifter?
~ resulted in both social and divine outrage to both the shifter and shiftee?
~ was detectable?
Yes, I'm just one voice trying to further explore another person's idea. I hold no other illusions beyond that.
Would a mask changing one's features when worn be more acceptable?
THIFE
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/15/2011 01:09 AM CDT
While I agree that it would be pretty lame RP wise to say you have always been a gor'tog when people widely knew you as a gnome, I don't think thats all that different from say, telling people you've always been a female after a gender shift, which is allowable in the current system. Is it pretty lame? yes. Will people see through it? yes.
As far as the rest, I really see it as two seperate issues. I really see tdp modifiers as a very OOC thing, and I think most of the community feels the same way. I'm sure plenty of gor'togs who play the big dumb angle have excellent mentals...
I guess you could call me a min/maxer, but I enjoy both the RP element of DR, and the leveling aspect, and I tend to lean more towards the latter on decisions like race. I don't feel like its overpowered to be able to RP a different race. In fact the very idea of any aspect of RP being overpowered seems kind of laughable. But I also recognize that its not up to me, so I'll crawl back into my hole now. (Love the empath devs always!)
As far as the rest, I really see it as two seperate issues. I really see tdp modifiers as a very OOC thing, and I think most of the community feels the same way. I'm sure plenty of gor'togs who play the big dumb angle have excellent mentals...
I guess you could call me a min/maxer, but I enjoy both the RP element of DR, and the leveling aspect, and I tend to lean more towards the latter on decisions like race. I don't feel like its overpowered to be able to RP a different race. In fact the very idea of any aspect of RP being overpowered seems kind of laughable. But I also recognize that its not up to me, so I'll crawl back into my hole now. (Love the empath devs always!)
SARKRANIS
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/15/2011 03:14 AM CDT
>>Thife: While I agree that it would be pretty lame RP wise to say you have always been a gor'tog when people widely knew you as a gnome, I don't think thats all that different from say, telling people you've always been a female after a gender shift, which is allowable in the current system. Is it pretty lame? yes. Will people see through it? yes.
The difference between retconning your gender and retconning your race is that your gender doesn't have any effect on stats and doesn't create something that is both man and woman at the same time. A man-turned-woman is, for all intents and purposes, a woman. (The few systems that consider gender don't keep calling the shifted character a man.) Your proposal, on the other hand, creates a mechanical anomaly: something that is one species on the outside and another on the inside.
>>Thife: As far as the rest, I really see it as two seperate issues. I really see tdp modifiers as a very OOC thing, and I think most of the community feels the same way. I'm sure plenty of gor'togs who play the big dumb angle have excellent mentals...
The numerical nature of stats is OOC knowledge. Stats (and the TDPs required to raise them) are just a model of your character. The stat bonuses and penalties are a reflection of each race's natural strengths and weaknesses. Can a Gor'Tog be as smart as an Elothean? Yes, but he'll have to work harder (spend more TDPs) than the Elothean, because Gor'Togs are not naturally intellectual.
>>Thife: I guess you could call me a min/maxer, but I enjoy both the RP element of DR, and the leveling aspect, and I tend to lean more towards the latter on decisions like race. I don't feel like its overpowered to be able to RP a different race.
The objection to your proposed system to mix and match races and stat bonuses is not that it's "overpowered" but that it's unbelievable and jarring. (See Socharis's example of a Halfling Barbarian who can increase his strength and stamina as easily as a Gor'Tog.)
I don't think it's possible to separate role-playing a race from the physical and mental traits of that race (which, again, are reflected mechanically). Part of the commitment to role-playing is accepting the rules of the universe that your character lives in -- and those rules include the strengths and limitations of each race.
When you ask that you be able to create a Halfling with the stat bonuses of a Gor'Tog, you are asking to create a chimera that doesn't exist in Elanthia.* You are saying, "I know that Halflings are normally weak and that they have to work really hard (compared to other races) if they want to be physically powerful, but my Halfling shouldn't be constrained by these limitations."
>*In theory it might be possible for someone with godlike empathy to make a Gor'Tog look like a Halfling while retaining the physical and mental qualities of a Gor'Tog, but in practice, no PC Empath has anything near the level of skill that would be required. Even if some phenomenal Empath did manage to achieve this incredible feat, the Khalo would be quick to suppress what they saw as another Jomay on their hands. (We're talking about a guild that views empathically changing someone's hair color as a hideously forbidden act.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
The difference between retconning your gender and retconning your race is that your gender doesn't have any effect on stats and doesn't create something that is both man and woman at the same time. A man-turned-woman is, for all intents and purposes, a woman. (The few systems that consider gender don't keep calling the shifted character a man.) Your proposal, on the other hand, creates a mechanical anomaly: something that is one species on the outside and another on the inside.
>>Thife: As far as the rest, I really see it as two seperate issues. I really see tdp modifiers as a very OOC thing, and I think most of the community feels the same way. I'm sure plenty of gor'togs who play the big dumb angle have excellent mentals...
The numerical nature of stats is OOC knowledge. Stats (and the TDPs required to raise them) are just a model of your character. The stat bonuses and penalties are a reflection of each race's natural strengths and weaknesses. Can a Gor'Tog be as smart as an Elothean? Yes, but he'll have to work harder (spend more TDPs) than the Elothean, because Gor'Togs are not naturally intellectual.
>>Thife: I guess you could call me a min/maxer, but I enjoy both the RP element of DR, and the leveling aspect, and I tend to lean more towards the latter on decisions like race. I don't feel like its overpowered to be able to RP a different race.
The objection to your proposed system to mix and match races and stat bonuses is not that it's "overpowered" but that it's unbelievable and jarring. (See Socharis's example of a Halfling Barbarian who can increase his strength and stamina as easily as a Gor'Tog.)
I don't think it's possible to separate role-playing a race from the physical and mental traits of that race (which, again, are reflected mechanically). Part of the commitment to role-playing is accepting the rules of the universe that your character lives in -- and those rules include the strengths and limitations of each race.
When you ask that you be able to create a Halfling with the stat bonuses of a Gor'Tog, you are asking to create a chimera that doesn't exist in Elanthia.* You are saying, "I know that Halflings are normally weak and that they have to work really hard (compared to other races) if they want to be physically powerful, but my Halfling shouldn't be constrained by these limitations."
>*In theory it might be possible for someone with godlike empathy to make a Gor'Tog look like a Halfling while retaining the physical and mental qualities of a Gor'Tog, but in practice, no PC Empath has anything near the level of skill that would be required. Even if some phenomenal Empath did manage to achieve this incredible feat, the Khalo would be quick to suppress what they saw as another Jomay on their hands. (We're talking about a guild that views empathically changing someone's hair color as a hideously forbidden act.)
"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan
ZENOOKIE
Re: Cosmetic Race Changes!
04/15/2011 06:42 AM CDT
<SARKRANIS' post.>
I concur.
~Sunshine and Daisies
I concur.
~Sunshine and Daisies
