There is a persistent myth among a few vocal players that the Empath spell Awaken is needed to save the life of a patient who is "in shock and dying," even if an Empath completely heals his wounds and restores his vitality.
For example, tonight a person was attacked until he went into shock. Although Empaths could have saved him, they did not intervene, probably to avoid granting consent. (If you intervene by healing during ongoing PvP, you grant consent to your patient's opponent.) Two minutes later, the person bled to death.
Immediately, members of the peanut gallery started berating the Empaths for not having cast Awaken to prevent the person from dying. Although it seems obvious that the person died of vitality loss, the critics claim to have seen many cases where a perfectly healthy patient died for no obvious reason despite Empathic intervention due to not receiving Awaken.
I'm not sure when or how this myth began, but my understanding is that the Awaken spell should have no effect on the mortality of patients. Could a GM please confirm once and for all whether Awaken plays any role in saving patients (without lethal wounds or 0% vitality) from death during shock or unconsciousness?
If not, are there any other issues that could cause an apparently healthy person to die? (I have not seen this happen, but some people claim it does.)
Thanks!
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
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SARKRANIS
ABSOLON
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/10/2015 07:12 AM CST
All Awaken does is remove stuns and the 'sleeping' condition which is sometimes indicated by the word 'unconcious.' It does nothing for the 'dying' state despite it also sometimes being referred to by the word 'unconcious.' I.e. Trying to wake someone up who is bleeding out on the operating table isn't going to do much to prevent them from bleeding out.
I suspect the myth is fueled in part by the use of that word in the spell description (as well as on Elanthipedia) to describe the effect.
AFAIK, the only thing can prevent death once the 'dying' state is reached is having your bleeding wounds and vitality healed within a certain time frame. How I understand it works, which may have inaccuracies:
-The dying state occurs at very low vitality levels.
-If during the dying state enough vitality loss occurs to drop you to zero then you die. This is what immediately healing any bleeding wounds prevents.
-If enough time passes without being restored from the dying state then you die, even if you didn't take a vitality hit large enough to drop you to zero. This is in part to make the dying state a fleeting one just to give people a fighting chance, and in part to prevent being griefed (by player or NPC) with extended periods of dying. I suspect this time is extended by having more Stamina, but that part is just speculation.
-To restore someone from the dying state they need to be healed to a certain point. Vitality out of the danger zone for sure, and bleeding wounds gone as well. Beyond that I am unsure how fully a person needs to be healed to stabilize them.
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I suspect the myth is fueled in part by the use of that word in the spell description (as well as on Elanthipedia) to describe the effect.
AFAIK, the only thing can prevent death once the 'dying' state is reached is having your bleeding wounds and vitality healed within a certain time frame. How I understand it works, which may have inaccuracies:
-The dying state occurs at very low vitality levels.
-If during the dying state enough vitality loss occurs to drop you to zero then you die. This is what immediately healing any bleeding wounds prevents.
-If enough time passes without being restored from the dying state then you die, even if you didn't take a vitality hit large enough to drop you to zero. This is in part to make the dying state a fleeting one just to give people a fighting chance, and in part to prevent being griefed (by player or NPC) with extended periods of dying. I suspect this time is extended by having more Stamina, but that part is just speculation.
-To restore someone from the dying state they need to be healed to a certain point. Vitality out of the danger zone for sure, and bleeding wounds gone as well. Beyond that I am unsure how fully a person needs to be healed to stabilize them.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
LAMBL
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/10/2015 08:43 AM CST
My understanding of they dying state is as follows:
-If your vitality hits zero (or below), you go into a dying state instead of becoming dead (assuming you haven't recently been dying).
-Upon entering a dying state, you get a "loan" of extra vitality to keep you alive. If the vitality hit that "killed" you drops you further into the negative than this loan can cover, you flat-out die. The state lasts for some time, but if your vitality drops back to zero before the time is up you'll die anyway.
-Once the time is up, you have to pay back the "loan" (with interest, I think). This is why people suddenly lose a chunk of vitality upon leaving the dying state, even if they have no injuries. I think there might be a pulsing vitality hit just for being in the dying state, as well. This may be what sometimes causes people to perish despite having been fully healed. Just filling the victim's vitality once at the beginning won't necessarily be sufficient.
-Awaken just removes the unconsciousness of the dying state. All the other stuff still happens, and awake-but-dying people still show up as having a tenuous grasp on life via PERCEIVE HEALTH. It's basically just for keeping people from having to lay there forever waiting to recover.
Probably the most obvious way to debunk this myth, though, is simply to recognize that the Dying state has existed longer than the Awaken spell. It was survivable before Awaken was released, and it's exceedingly unlikely that they'd go back and intentionally modify the Dying state to be an automatic death sentence without that one spell.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
-If your vitality hits zero (or below), you go into a dying state instead of becoming dead (assuming you haven't recently been dying).
-Upon entering a dying state, you get a "loan" of extra vitality to keep you alive. If the vitality hit that "killed" you drops you further into the negative than this loan can cover, you flat-out die. The state lasts for some time, but if your vitality drops back to zero before the time is up you'll die anyway.
-Once the time is up, you have to pay back the "loan" (with interest, I think). This is why people suddenly lose a chunk of vitality upon leaving the dying state, even if they have no injuries. I think there might be a pulsing vitality hit just for being in the dying state, as well. This may be what sometimes causes people to perish despite having been fully healed. Just filling the victim's vitality once at the beginning won't necessarily be sufficient.
-Awaken just removes the unconsciousness of the dying state. All the other stuff still happens, and awake-but-dying people still show up as having a tenuous grasp on life via PERCEIVE HEALTH. It's basically just for keeping people from having to lay there forever waiting to recover.
Probably the most obvious way to debunk this myth, though, is simply to recognize that the Dying state has existed longer than the Awaken spell. It was survivable before Awaken was released, and it's exceedingly unlikely that they'd go back and intentionally modify the Dying state to be an automatic death sentence without that one spell.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
GAMERGIRL151
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/10/2015 10:22 AM CST
All good points here, I just wanted to add that casting awaken can actually be harmful on people who are "dying" because they sometimes choose to stand back up. If you're covered in bleeding wounds and low vitality, this is the opposite of a good idea.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
GAMERGIRL151
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/10/2015 10:50 AM CST
Also because this discussion needs more logs:
Bob is "in shock and dying" here.
>Bob is suffering from what should be a deadly loss of vitality (-102%).
I healed and gave Bob vitality, I did not use awaken.
>Bob has normal vitality.
>He is somewhat fatigued.
>You sense that Bob's grasp on life is tenuous.
After about 2 minutes (it's hard to tell from logs) Bob no longer showed as tenuous and did not die.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Bob is "in shock and dying" here.
>Bob is suffering from what should be a deadly loss of vitality (-102%).
I healed and gave Bob vitality, I did not use awaken.
>Bob has normal vitality.
>He is somewhat fatigued.
>You sense that Bob's grasp on life is tenuous.
After about 2 minutes (it's hard to tell from logs) Bob no longer showed as tenuous and did not die.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
DRSCOTT
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/11/2015 01:59 PM CST
In addition to casting awaken, patients should be fed lavender to restore vitality. /s
DR-NAOHHI
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/11/2015 09:28 PM CST
While I sometimes enjoy reading the stupid that sprouts up..
Awaken
*Attempts to cure the states known as Unconscious and Stunned.
*Does nothing to the state known as Dying state that may also be referred to as Pre Death Shock, not to be confused with Empathic Shock.
Using Awaken on someone in the dying state is as useless as offering lavender to Meraud. Meaning, you can do it, but those of us that know better are just laughing at you while you make yourself look silly.
---
NaOH+HI
Awaken
*Attempts to cure the states known as Unconscious and Stunned.
*Does nothing to the state known as Dying state that may also be referred to as Pre Death Shock, not to be confused with Empathic Shock.
Using Awaken on someone in the dying state is as useless as offering lavender to Meraud. Meaning, you can do it, but those of us that know better are just laughing at you while you make yourself look silly.
---
NaOH+HI
SARKRANIS
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/11/2015 09:32 PM CST
>>DR-Naohhi: Using Awaken on someone in the dying state is as useless as offering lavender to Meraud. Meaning, you can do it, but those of us that know better are just laughing at you while you make yourself look silly.
Thanks!
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
Thanks!
"Empathy doesn't make people nice." --GM Armifer
Vote for DragonRealms on Top MUD Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/vote-DragonRealms.html
ABSOLON
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/12/2015 01:26 AM CST
<<While I sometimes enjoy reading the stupid that sprouts up..
I sense a dig at the Sprout spell in there somewhere.
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Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
I sense a dig at the Sprout spell in there somewhere.
Elanthipedia - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
Epedia Admins - https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elanthipedia:Administrators
SCHULTZS3
Re: Awaken and the Dying State
01/21/2015 10:13 AM CST
A while back, I went Dying from severely bad bleeds from a sorcery backlash (losing limbs giving like 4 'very bad' bleeds). I was on Mer'kresh and I managed to have another character of mine come and tend so that I had no bleeds.
I got back to about 20% vitality and then I just died, honestly I was shocked.
Would be interesting to try testing to see how much % it takes to live.
Also, you don't have to be conscious to keep a moongate running. Which is a little wierd. Although it runs till it sucks up all your attunement and you can't release it I don't think.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
I got back to about 20% vitality and then I just died, honestly I was shocked.
Would be interesting to try testing to see how much % it takes to live.
Also, you don't have to be conscious to keep a moongate running. Which is a little wierd. Although it runs till it sucks up all your attunement and you can't release it I don't think.
Kaeta Airtag
"I have faith in the current crop of GMs to not screw people over"
>>Actually an opinion cannot be changed or corrected. Nice try back of line.-VERATHOR
>>But it can be wrong.-Starlear
