>>One of the questions which should be at the core of this discussion in my opinion is, "What is Empathy?"
>>
>>What is Empathy? What does it allow an Empath to do? Certainly at its most basic function it allows an Empath to create a metabolic link with another living being which allows for the >>transference of matter and cellular composition. Can it do anything else?
>>
>>Since Empathy allows you to create a link with another living being in order to transfer and exchange matter, it could be argued that Empathy should also allow you to transfer and exchange >>other chemical sensations such as hearing, taste, touch, smell, etc. If this Empathic link could also be maintained without physical contact I think that opens up a lot of doors as to what >>all might be possible.
>>
>>I know Empaths have a strong dislike against causing additional wounds to living beings; however, if no new wounds are formed and instead the Empath merely gives their own wounds to another >>individual, would that hold the same implications which cause shock?
>>
>>Basically I am imagining an Empath establishing an Empath link with a raging Barbarian as the Barbarian closes to melee range. The Barbarian slices a deep gash in the Empath's right leg and >>almost immediately the Empath transfers that wound back to the Barbarian. The Empath doesn't inflict any additional wounds which weren't already there in this scenario and is merely "sharing >>the pain".
>>
>>~Leilond
Leilond - I copied your whole post not to respond to it all but rather to get it into the new thread because it looks prettier in thread view, I'm told. I left it in the healing systems folder, however because although it could be a general discussion, it is relevant to the discussions being had here.
Empathy is more than just the transference of matter and cellular composition, so I wanted to add to what you had up there.
Empathy is not just transferring matter and cellular composition, but their control as well. Hence the shifting ability.
We can also, in a sense, manipulate emotional states, hence our ability to manipulate critters into thinking we are friends. I'm not sure this is so much the transfer of one though rather than manipulation, but there is some precedent in the lore for influencing the emotions of others (perhaps giving a lore basis for the idea that we should be able to "force" empathy on others?)
Empathy also allows us to perceive the "auras" to to speak, of others, using perceive health. We can see dark streaks about their aura, and how their life essence is doing, for example. So this not only let's us transfer matter and cellular composition, but detect it's state as well. It doesn't require a metabolic link, either, since we can do it without touching and from rooms away (granted, this is both Emapthy and Power Perception combined, but still).
Perceiving health doesn't just relate to physical health and well-being detection either. I don't know exactly which critters do it, but I know if I'm in the basement Dunshade Manor, I believe it is, when I detect critters there's a screeching at the edge of my awareness that makes me open my eyes, or something to that effect. This isn't detection of physical wellbeing but...evilness? I'm not sure how to characterize it, but it does seem to indicate that this skill is not merely related to the physical health of a being.
I am sure I am missing things as well, but at the very least, Empathy includes all of the above.
~Player of ChelmorAes
DYMPHNA
KHELEK00
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/20/2011 03:28 PM CDT
This is probably going to be a long post so here goes. First of all, I agree with the above posters for what Empathy is, at least for the most part.
I view empathy as a combination of two main elements. First, matter transference/manipulation. In my mind, when an Empath draws wounds from another person, they're exchanging the cellular structure of their body part with their patients. Deeper than that, they convert the cellular structure into a magical energy and then back into matter on their own bodies while doing the same in reverse for the patient. Shifting and manipulation both work under this assumption. Shifting is, instead of transferring the energy to and from the Empath and the patient, just gently converts the cellular structure into energy then back into the new shape. Manipulation is achieved through the manipulation of the matter in the brain of or manipulation of the magic energy that controls hostile emotions of the targeted creature.
Along with the transference/manipulation aspect, Empathy also includes a heightened sensitivity to the emotional state (which again can fall under a broad, magical energy term) of the being. If you read the one good source we have about ancient Empaths (http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/First_Empaths), they say 'we can hardly tolerate being around each other anymore'. To me, this means that that sensitivity became so great one of two things happened. Either a) they began being able to sense every little thought and feeling any being with a certain level of consciousness had. (I make that small side note because I doubt they'd be able to feel what trees feel yet sentient was too specific of a term.) Or b) they began to feel pain at a cellular level. The death of cells because something these first Empaths could feel and if you think about it, that would quickly drive a person insane. The latter of these two theories is only plausible if Empaths only sense pain of others and not just a broader 'emotions'. However, it's possible that it was some combination of the two.
Look at when Trylaine (http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Trylaine) appeared and taught someone the manipulate ability. He was "a very old and insanely skilled Empath who spoke to some distant beings" and could change "race, age, and sex several times without effort, healed all wounds instantly with a touch". "He eventually had to leave as he stated his time was up and he had to move on to other duties elsewhere, ascending into the heavens and leaving us all in awe and wonder. " To me, this speaks of an amount of skill with matter/energy transference/manipulation completely off the charts compared to any other NPC and definitely an PC Empath to date. The ability to change one's own state of being into energy and back into matter at will (and who knows what else).
These points also can lead to why an Empath can (could) redirect wounds, they've simply become good enough at the matter/energy transference that they can concentrate enough to pick where they transfer their own cellular structure from. They aren't so focused on the act of transferring that it no longer defaults to 'wounds on hands become my wounds on my hands.' I think wound redirection would make sense that, the more skilled at empathy you are, the farther away from the original wound you're able to move the transfer. So a moderately skilled Empath might be able to take hand wounds and turn them into arm wounds or chest wounds into abdomen wounds. A very skilled Empath might be able to take chest wounds and move them to their arms or legs but not yet to their hands. An extremely skilled Empath could take head wounds and move that transference all the way down to their legs.
One last thing as a side note and I don't think lore behind the Necro guild is all secret so I think I'm safe to say this: I believe the final destination of an Empath is what the Necros are trying to achieve. Unending life and absolute control over it. The differences being the Necros seek to gain control over the life force of others, while Empaths gain control over their own. This is also why I think (IC wise) that a Necromancer and an Empath share a common goal (loosely) but only an Empath has a chance to actually achieve it in the end. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about the similarities to Necromancy and Empathy, I just wanted to add that point.
Tl;dr Empathy = MC^2
I view empathy as a combination of two main elements. First, matter transference/manipulation. In my mind, when an Empath draws wounds from another person, they're exchanging the cellular structure of their body part with their patients. Deeper than that, they convert the cellular structure into a magical energy and then back into matter on their own bodies while doing the same in reverse for the patient. Shifting and manipulation both work under this assumption. Shifting is, instead of transferring the energy to and from the Empath and the patient, just gently converts the cellular structure into energy then back into the new shape. Manipulation is achieved through the manipulation of the matter in the brain of or manipulation of the magic energy that controls hostile emotions of the targeted creature.
Along with the transference/manipulation aspect, Empathy also includes a heightened sensitivity to the emotional state (which again can fall under a broad, magical energy term) of the being. If you read the one good source we have about ancient Empaths (http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/First_Empaths), they say 'we can hardly tolerate being around each other anymore'. To me, this means that that sensitivity became so great one of two things happened. Either a) they began being able to sense every little thought and feeling any being with a certain level of consciousness had. (I make that small side note because I doubt they'd be able to feel what trees feel yet sentient was too specific of a term.) Or b) they began to feel pain at a cellular level. The death of cells because something these first Empaths could feel and if you think about it, that would quickly drive a person insane. The latter of these two theories is only plausible if Empaths only sense pain of others and not just a broader 'emotions'. However, it's possible that it was some combination of the two.
Look at when Trylaine (http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Trylaine) appeared and taught someone the manipulate ability. He was "a very old and insanely skilled Empath who spoke to some distant beings" and could change "race, age, and sex several times without effort, healed all wounds instantly with a touch". "He eventually had to leave as he stated his time was up and he had to move on to other duties elsewhere, ascending into the heavens and leaving us all in awe and wonder. " To me, this speaks of an amount of skill with matter/energy transference/manipulation completely off the charts compared to any other NPC and definitely an PC Empath to date. The ability to change one's own state of being into energy and back into matter at will (and who knows what else).
These points also can lead to why an Empath can (could) redirect wounds, they've simply become good enough at the matter/energy transference that they can concentrate enough to pick where they transfer their own cellular structure from. They aren't so focused on the act of transferring that it no longer defaults to 'wounds on hands become my wounds on my hands.' I think wound redirection would make sense that, the more skilled at empathy you are, the farther away from the original wound you're able to move the transfer. So a moderately skilled Empath might be able to take hand wounds and turn them into arm wounds or chest wounds into abdomen wounds. A very skilled Empath might be able to take chest wounds and move them to their arms or legs but not yet to their hands. An extremely skilled Empath could take head wounds and move that transference all the way down to their legs.
One last thing as a side note and I don't think lore behind the Necro guild is all secret so I think I'm safe to say this: I believe the final destination of an Empath is what the Necros are trying to achieve. Unending life and absolute control over it. The differences being the Necros seek to gain control over the life force of others, while Empaths gain control over their own. This is also why I think (IC wise) that a Necromancer and an Empath share a common goal (loosely) but only an Empath has a chance to actually achieve it in the end. I don't want to turn this into a discussion about the similarities to Necromancy and Empathy, I just wanted to add that point.
Tl;dr Empathy = MC^2
DR-ARMIFER
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/20/2011 05:24 PM CDT
>>I believe the final destination of an Empath is what the Necros are trying to achieve. Unending life and absolute control over it. The differences being the Necros seek to gain control over the life force of others, while Empaths gain control over their own.
There's also some philosophical baggage and assumptions that the Necromancers make that might be amusing to ponder in context of the First Empaths.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
There's also some philosophical baggage and assumptions that the Necromancers make that might be amusing to ponder in context of the First Empaths.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
TEVESHSZAT
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/20/2011 08:00 PM CDT
>>There's also some philosophical baggage and assumptions that the Necromancers make that might be amusing to ponder in context of the First Empaths.
I've always loved that, and the fact that some Empaths who end up flying too close to the sun (as it were) "just disappear".
I've always loved that, and the fact that some Empaths who end up flying too close to the sun (as it were) "just disappear".
ALEPH-ONE
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/21/2011 04:12 AM CDT
>>What is Empathy?
I think so far we've been focused on the end result of Empathy, not what it IS.
I think Empathy is becoming the same.
Allow me to elaborate with an anecdote. I once performed an experiment wherein I invited people to put their hand into a large box. They could then peek into the box through a small window on the side -- but, to their surprise, the box was rigged with a mirror so that it looked exactly as though, in place of their own hand, was a rubber hand. It was quite obvious to everyone that this hand was fake, but of course the mirror made it look as though it was in the exact location their real hand should be.
What I would then do is pick up a paint brush and lightly run it over the rubber hand. At the same time, I would do the exact same motions on their real hand. So what they were seeing on the rubber hand was happening to their own, real hand.
This produces an effect we call the Rubber Hand Illusion (yes, I'm serious). What it means is that people start to report that they "feel like" the rubber hand is their own.
What I did next was, after they had started to feel like the hand was "theirs," I picked up a needle and said I was going to poke the (rubber) hand with it (though I didn't actually do it as this seemed too cruel). I had people hooked up to record their galvanic skin response (like a lie detector). What I found was that, naturally, some people responded more strongly than others (some very strongly).
To make a long story short, the way I thought of it, people were incorporating the fake hand into their own body schema. They were empathizing. They were becoming the same being, anticipating pain.
Needless to say, the concept of Empathy in game has held much fascination for me. And I think that there is a LOT that could be done with it.
I'll probably ruminate some more and see if I can come up with a few more ideas.
-- Player of Eyuve
I think so far we've been focused on the end result of Empathy, not what it IS.
I think Empathy is becoming the same.
Allow me to elaborate with an anecdote. I once performed an experiment wherein I invited people to put their hand into a large box. They could then peek into the box through a small window on the side -- but, to their surprise, the box was rigged with a mirror so that it looked exactly as though, in place of their own hand, was a rubber hand. It was quite obvious to everyone that this hand was fake, but of course the mirror made it look as though it was in the exact location their real hand should be.
What I would then do is pick up a paint brush and lightly run it over the rubber hand. At the same time, I would do the exact same motions on their real hand. So what they were seeing on the rubber hand was happening to their own, real hand.
This produces an effect we call the Rubber Hand Illusion (yes, I'm serious). What it means is that people start to report that they "feel like" the rubber hand is their own.
What I did next was, after they had started to feel like the hand was "theirs," I picked up a needle and said I was going to poke the (rubber) hand with it (though I didn't actually do it as this seemed too cruel). I had people hooked up to record their galvanic skin response (like a lie detector). What I found was that, naturally, some people responded more strongly than others (some very strongly).
To make a long story short, the way I thought of it, people were incorporating the fake hand into their own body schema. They were empathizing. They were becoming the same being, anticipating pain.
Needless to say, the concept of Empathy in game has held much fascination for me. And I think that there is a LOT that could be done with it.
I'll probably ruminate some more and see if I can come up with a few more ideas.
-- Player of Eyuve
LAMBL
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/21/2011 05:42 AM CDT
I think using so many words might be more limiting than beneficial in this case. Simply put, Empathy is empathy taken to a literal, supernatural extreme. That's why it's called 'Empathy' in the first place, and why this is called the Empath guild. Armifer one time described it as a "life-affirming connectivity to others", which I thought was a pretty nice summary.
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
Thanks,
-Life Sustainer Karthor
DR-ARMIFER
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/21/2011 06:42 PM CDT
If we want to play with the real-world etymology, empathy originates from the German Einfühlung, "feeling into" or "feeling your way in." In the original, it's better thought of as a verb than a noun. It's not some quality you possess, it's an act you perform with another person, inextricably bound to social interaction. The English definition, as English definitions usually do, has wandered a bit.
Empathy-with-a-big-E in the Elanthia sense is not the same thing as empathy-with-a-little-E. There's a conceptual correlation between them, but it does not take an Empath to express psychological empathy, nor is it particularly guaranteed an Empath is going to maintain an empathic personality (though they probably started with one, elsewise the whole Empathy gig would be hard to swallow).
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
ALEPH-ONE
Re: What IS Empathy?
09/21/2011 07:18 PM CDT
>>Empathy-with-a-big-E in the Elanthia sense is not the same thing as empathy-with-a-little-E. ... it does not take an Empath to express psychological empathy.
This is certainly not where I was going with my anecdote, so thank you for clarifying.
Rather, I just wanted to get across the sense that empathy (in real life) may be about feeling as if someone else were a part of yourself. Empathy (in DR) may have some similarities to this, with the obvious fantasy extension that your body is literally taking on the form of someone else's.
The idea is that maybe we can brainstorm around becoming like others, and literally becoming others (e.g., using their senses, feeling what they are feeling).
-- Player of Eyuve
This is certainly not where I was going with my anecdote, so thank you for clarifying.
Rather, I just wanted to get across the sense that empathy (in real life) may be about feeling as if someone else were a part of yourself. Empathy (in DR) may have some similarities to this, with the obvious fantasy extension that your body is literally taking on the form of someone else's.
The idea is that maybe we can brainstorm around becoming like others, and literally becoming others (e.g., using their senses, feeling what they are feeling).
-- Player of Eyuve
