>>The idea of a Transcendent Empath healing a totally obliterated person and having only small scratches and the odd twitching is attractive, but I don't want to do that at the expense of any sort of challenge for high level empaths.

One way to cull this seemingly 'invincible' state is to scale the amount of wound transference reduction based on something like concentration and have healing over time drain it. So healing one person at 100% concentration yields hardly any wounds and takes you down to 90%. Healing a second person gives you slightly more wounds than the first and takes you down to 80%. Now that your concentration is at 80% your transference reduction isn't as potent as it was and it keeps getting worse the lower in concentration you go, until you're back at a 1:1 ratio at maybe 50% concentration?

Anyway, just an idea. I have no idea if healing people drains concentration to begin with :P

~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

Honestly I'm on the fance about wound reduction. It's been on the wish list for years and it has awesome potential if it's done right. What 'right' would be, I'm not certain.

Bottom line wound reduction would just make the amount of wounds until critical on a body part go up at a rate dependant upon how small they can be made onto that part. I can see this being a problem in triage where basically the large empaths can just wick away wounds and the younger empaths are just left twiddling their thumbs. In a normal healing situation, it'd just be worse to the point that you will have to add something to allow young empaths to learn healing. Or to make reduction teach so much older empaths will not need to heal patient after patient to train.

Is this planned to be a feat or just a skill any empath can do once they have the skill? For example would like the transfer: TAKE person WOUND small fast part? With danger of it going rogue, of course, when they're first learning it. Or would you have to take a quest or something before you could use the ability? I can see it both ways and I'm not sure which I prefer. It makes sense to be just a natural extension...but then it also might potentially have ties to shift, so it'd make sense as a quest.

I'm already worried with the new combat that big wounds will be going away for the most part, so wound reduction on top of it has me more than a bit concerned. I'm hoping there is some thought going on for the overall system to make sure there are still ways to learn by healing for all empaths and not forcing most of the empaths into power walking just to level again. Basically this is what I'm on the fence about... Just because it's been on the list for years and is a obvious ability for transferance.... Will the system support it, however?

That's great to hear! I really am excited about the potential in the new systems and am very glad you're coming to us for feedback so we love the system coming out rather than immediately reject it because it is a view most of us don't want. Thank you!

>>Is wound redirection (the ability to transfer the patient's wound to a different part of the Empath's body) still planned for Healing 2.0?

Yes, it is. Wound redirection will be an empathy feat. The syntax nightmare is avoided by a REDIRECT verb. It's something the empath has to concentrate on, so you get a finite number of redirects. The ultimate redirect will be to redirect ALL wounds to one body part. So wound reduction factors in here, too. If I make the wound reduction too awesome, then an uber empath could theoretically redirect an entire disintegrated moon mage to their left hand, heal it, and be ready to go again. (That won't be possible, in reality, but it illustrates how the two might be used together.)

Redirecting wounds does teach more than a typical transfer does.

Melete

---

[Turmis] I'm about to shoot beards in the face

I'll agree with many of the people so far and say I'm not sure how I feel. I like the idea that there is something for higher empathy ranks to actually do instead of it feeling like it caps so low (with exception to getting new shifts). But at the same time I can see how this would make it much harder for lower empaths to actually get patients and that reducing it when you don't want to (trying to get a bleeder) would be disadvantageous.


>>If wound reduction were something I had to activate, or do intentionally, I'd fall off the fence and land slightly on the "pro" side of this. I'm not sure, however, how it would be an "empathy feat" at this point though, versus a spell. Perhaps through using syntax like "transfer wound reduce" and having a limited number of them that I can do at once? When I was a young empath, I could only maintain one empathic link at a time. Now I haven't been able to find enough people to test on to see what my limit is (I know it's greater than 9 as I have gone on quests as the only empath and linked with every member of my quest group at once to check their wounds). Perhaps there are a limited number of wounds (total, on a single patient, etc) that you can reduce at once, thus giving high level empaths not only something more to do, but something to strive for (it takes that transcendent empath to do it for a pulpy moon mage).

Perhaps something like Speculate Finesse with the traders? An ability that we can activate that lasts a certain period of time and has a cooldown that are based off empathy ranks. This way I can activate it when I really want/need it but it isn't necessarily something I would or could always use. It would make my empathy ranks help but not in a flat all the time way.

I really like the idea transferred wound reduction. It appears to be a great middle ground between getting rid of overhealing and provides upper-level uses for empathy without removing all of the risk.



Nikpack

>>Lambl: I don't feel it should be an activated ability, but rather an always-on sort of thing that just simply happens with skill.

I'd prefer alternate syntax, such as what Dymphna posted, so that high-level Empaths would still have the option of taking the wound without reducing the severity.

---

"PHA = Healer Union. They charge for healing based on your injuries. We will now pause while everyone gives their opinion on this." -- Teilan

>>However, I do think it would be nice that the more advanced you get, you have a natural ability to extend the time it takes you to get to that overheal, as in the above example. I think it >>is safe to say that while overhealing should still be something each empath should be aware of, as you get more advanced you should also be able to push your body to do more for you (in this >>case, take more wounds safely). It fits into my understanding of our (current) Empathy skill at least.

I thought more stamina did this already (and therefore by extension, Gift of Life)?

~Player of ChelmorAes

>>The idea of a Transcendent Empath healing a totally obliterated person and having only small scratches and the odd twitching is attractive, but I don't want to do that at the expense of any sort of challenge for high level empaths.

You're right, this is exactly the problem with this kind of feat.

What I suggest is upping the "reward" for high Empathy but also upping the risk. That is to say, higher Empathy should unlock the ability to try riskier moves that also have high reward (transferred wound reduction).

Just how to implement said risk, well, I have no idea. It could be something like backfiring, where there's a chance of failure that could explode multiple body parts. Or maybe the wounds seep back in later at random times. Or maybe you have to perform just the right sequence of events (unique to the patient) or risk making things worse.

You might also want to consider having a bit of both -- they naturally get (a little) better at wound reduction with Empathy, but they have the potential to be really good if they accept the risky option.

In any case, yeah. Some kind of risk always makes things interesting.


-- Player of Eyuve

>>It's always worse to be more injured as opposed to less injured (because injuries are bad for you), so there's really no reason to want to let yourself get more injured when you could >>otherwise be less injured. This is really a no brainer to me; any part of the game that encourages a player to want to be more injured (most likely First Aid experience gain) should be >>considered horribly broken beyond all recognition and in need of serious revision.

This ^^ is an opinion.


Let me give you some reasons (not an all inclusive list) why it is BETTER to be more injured than not for some folks:

1) RP - Some Empaths, me at times, take pride in their injured status. If we could heal someone completely and not SHOW a single injury, that would take away from this opportunity.
2) First Aid - the system of first aid is not broken simply because it's better to be bleeding than not to learn first aid. Let's think of real life. Sure, you can go to medical school and learn all the things you need to "know" about healing, first aid, etc. But until you get into the field and practice it for yourself, you're not a doctor, you're a wanna be. That's why we have rotations in our medical school system (and many countries do as well). Even after that, you're not considered the expert on First Aid. You need to go out and have more wounded people to heal and fix and practice on. You need the hand's on. Learning from a book (in DR's case, a compendium) should never be nearly as good as learning from actually attending to wounds. And for those who don't want to sit around waiting for someone else to show up with a bleeder for them to work on, having one of your own is "better."
3) Make other tasks harder - Sometimes having an injury helps you with learning other things because it makes them more difficult. For example, I don't do a lot of my own hunting, so I rely on my lockpicking and disarming learning to come from those boxes that folks give me. My IG sister gets lots of dusk ogre boxes and brings them to me. They are below my skill level, but if I do them with injured hands, I can learn more from them because I've made my task harder. Again, a time when more injured is better than less injured.
4) Magic training - I've seen a lot of complaints about folks who say they can't train their magic while healing. I've honestly not encountered this problem yet. If I take a full set of injuries from someone and then heal myself up location by location, I get my magic moving just as nicely as when I sit and run my magic script casting a useless spell over and over again. I also get the fun RP of being an empath and getting to heal myself up. Sure, I could cast FOC, but why? And there are times when I just don't want to be falling down stunned but don't mind using my magic to heal myself up.
5) The fun of testing thresholds - Yep, that's right, sometimes, I want to see exactly how hurt I can get before I fall down. It would take that much longer if I had to find even more patients to run this test (I already cannot do it on most single patients). How injured can I be and still braid grass? How do the different levels of hand injuries affect my smelting? Do I have to fully heal to be able to do these things or can some injuries remain?


~Player of ChelmorAes

>>I don't want to go too far off on this tangent, so I'll just remind you that we're talking about injuries here. Wounds. Physical bodily damage. Pain. Suffering. Misery.

Injury does not equal pain. Pain is not objective. Pain does not necessitate suffering or misery. It's fine not to go off on the tangent, but if you are going to remind me of things, they should be true things.

>>A believable character does not want to be in this state, nor does s/he enjoy it

Perhaps you don't know the same empaths I know. Or maybe you just don't believe in them. We could get into a detailed discussion of the human state, psychology, and injury (including disability) but it would take us off topic. Ultimately your logic doesn't negate the general point, the system is as it is and it makes sense for empaths to want wounds. I think we should move to a "is the first aid system broken" sort of topic if you're interested in going farther on this.

~Player of ChelmorAes

>>unless you're pointedly playing a character with a particular lack of sanity or something

This is why my Empath is a follower of Be'Ort. Gotta be at least a little crazy to even consider taking wounds all the time.

Really, I just wanted to throw my vote into the 'keep overhealing' party. It's a fun challenge and like most of the others who have posted here, I feel like I'm at my best when I'm in triage with 7 bodies and 2 about-to-be-bodies and trying to heal myself enough to keep someone alive.

Wound reduction would be nice but what I would like to see it implemented as is another modifier like quick/slow/half/most. Let it be a tech; it should be one available early in an Empath's career, maybe 20th circle and should give reduced experience but to offset that a bit, could give a small bit of xp in primary magic. This way, people can use it as they please and a younger empath can use it to help out in a triage situation a bit more.




Player of Nithhogr

>I'd have to summarize a pain an analgesia course to fully explain it, but if you want some information on it, visit boards on folks who suffer from chronic disabilities and how much actual suffering they experienced at first versus how much those who have had the condition for years experience.

As someone who is constantly in severe pain, I agree with Karthor.

You learn to tolerate pain, but it never gets better. There's an incredibly huge difference. Paper cuts still bother me, stubbing my toe still bothers me, despite the much more severe and constant elsewhere.

All successful animals learn to avoid pain and work towards reducing it. It's innate and one of the most basic drives.

---

Hunta Talna Kortok, built by Gor'Togs, for Gor'Togs
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/caraamon/home.html
Weapons for Sale:
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Combat Balance List:
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>>As someone who is constantly in severe pain, I agree with Karthor.

It is a distinct possibility that I and my friends are freaks. I am not in constant pain, however, I am in a constant state of injury. I don't notice the pain unless I think about the injury and focus on whether or not it hurts (typically only when the doctor wants to assess where the pain is, if it's gotten better, etc). It's not constant suffering, or even constant pain in the subjective sense. It is, however, constant injury. That is the distinction I was making. If you are constantly experiencing PAIN, yea, you're probably not happy about it. But if you are injured but not experiencing pain, then it's not suffering and misery at that point. (the friends I refer to include one with fibromayalgia and a partially quadriplegic friend. Both are in constant states of what could be considered injury, neither are in constant pain. Then there's the one I call a freak to her face, she went through the entirety of childbirth without experiencing pain once despite no drugs. That's superhuman in my mind). PS - I'm sorry you are in constant pain. I hope it has a prospect of getting better.

>>If you want to RP that you like to carry wounds and bleeders and live with the pain, etc. Go ahead. But you're in the minority, and my character would scoff at such nonsense and silliness.

I'm cool with that. It's clear I'm in the minority, both with my RP and with my division between injury and pain. I've been scoffed for worse things.


~Player of ChelmorAes

>>I think, when you consider the extremes of damage that empaths go through on a regular basis, this is probably not applicable. You're talking about variable location, variable intensity >>pains, which would prevent the body from tuning it out.

The original discussion wasn't about the act of healing something new, it was about having a pet bleeder and the fact that one should never want to do that because it would equate to constant pain and suffering, so it would be the sort that would be a constant state of injury but not necessarily have to be a constant state of pain.

~Player of ChelmorAes

>>but from a pure RP standpoint, it's indefensible for the vast majority of people.<<

^This.

________________________________________________________________________________

We've decided that instead of spells Paladins will be a new arm of the Bard guild utilizing interpretive dance moves.

~GM Zeyurn

I hope you don't think empathy should only do something at extremely high levels. we have TWO abilities. count em. TWO. manipulate and shift. and they are both within the first 30 circles. what drive do new players have to keep playing empaths as their main? from 30th circle, there is absolutely nothing to look forward to for the next 120 circles, with the exception of spells (which run out at 60th) and possibly faster transfer (as well as benefits every person gets for circling). I'd like to see empathy (and the guild in general) have abilities and benefits spread across all circles and not have those reserved for the uber high skill/circles.

depends on what you mean when you say high circle. 75+? 100+? 150? I have a 77th empath.

Oh I completely agree that there needs to be 100+ abilities. But I was also stating that lower circle empaths really don't have anything much to look forward to either. the difference between a 20th circle empath and a 100th circle empath are a handful of shifts and healing a bit (not a lot) faster. My friend is 24th circle, and with both of us using crutch, there is very little noticible difference in speed. You bring up that lower levels can look forward to a higher variety of shifts. My point was that shifts are very seldomly used, especially with the upgraded creation options in character creation. We have an ability that needs to be marketed OOC on webpages or boards in order to not get shunned in game. I understand that it is guild lore, but people hide behind lore for justification that it is a subpar ability.

My point was all empaths should feel the love, not just limit it to the super elite of the 100+