I'm sure this has been hashed over, but I was talking to a coworker about the ethics behind Guardian Spirit, or to a lesser degree, Manipulating a critter to kill another critter.
How does this jive RP wise?
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
FEIGERZ
LUTHAIS
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:02 PM CDT
Heh, was just talking about this over in the General folder... probably should have posted here instead.
My strictly pacifist Empath has MAJOR problems with using Manipulate and GS to hurt things. Although she can manipulate and knows GS (at least until the 6 month timer in Throne resets), she avoids using them because she does not want to cause harm even indirectly... she is still a combat Empath, but she uses only defensive skills/abilities that in no way effect her opponent.
In the end... up to you I'd say! As has been pointed out quite clearly, the notion that Empaths must be pacifists is long dead and buried, and some wish to take it to an opposite extreme I'm sure. Pick a stance on it and have fun!
Murithi
My strictly pacifist Empath has MAJOR problems with using Manipulate and GS to hurt things. Although she can manipulate and knows GS (at least until the 6 month timer in Throne resets), she avoids using them because she does not want to cause harm even indirectly... she is still a combat Empath, but she uses only defensive skills/abilities that in no way effect her opponent.
In the end... up to you I'd say! As has been pointed out quite clearly, the notion that Empaths must be pacifists is long dead and buried, and some wish to take it to an opposite extreme I'm sure. Pick a stance on it and have fun!
Murithi
THESAGEONE
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:04 PM CDT
My thought behind the matter was something along the lines of bodyguards.
Along the lines of what I've been able to perceive of the empath guild was that they seem to be like bodyguards. You summon the guardian and the guardian agrees to defend you for a given amount of time. Samething with manipulate, sort of charming a creature into a temporary alliance in which they defend you.
I've never used these abilities, so I could be off. But I think it's more along the lines brokering a mutual agreement for a short time rather than the Empath ordering something to its death.
~The player of Khorgar, Dwarven Barbarian~
IM: KhorgarDR
Along the lines of what I've been able to perceive of the empath guild was that they seem to be like bodyguards. You summon the guardian and the guardian agrees to defend you for a given amount of time. Samething with manipulate, sort of charming a creature into a temporary alliance in which they defend you.
I've never used these abilities, so I could be off. But I think it's more along the lines brokering a mutual agreement for a short time rather than the Empath ordering something to its death.
~The player of Khorgar, Dwarven Barbarian~
IM: KhorgarDR
SCHULTZS3
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:11 PM CDT
Probably something like this: The fae (GS) have a bunch of different temperaments. Most want to just defend without getting directly in harm's way, but one little bunch (avengers) feel it's better to kill the problem dead and solve it that way.
Manipulating is a whole 'nother thing. Here, you're altering the emotional perception of a critter to regard you as a friend.
In both cases, they're technically independent creatures (particularly the manipulatee), and as you're not exerting direct mental control (You! Kill that! NOW!!!), it doesn't cause shock.
The same way that I wince a little inside every time I have a duel or something happen right in front of me. We're not to be blamed for others' actions.
Manipulating is a whole 'nother thing. Here, you're altering the emotional perception of a critter to regard you as a friend.
In both cases, they're technically independent creatures (particularly the manipulatee), and as you're not exerting direct mental control (You! Kill that! NOW!!!), it doesn't cause shock.
The same way that I wince a little inside every time I have a duel or something happen right in front of me. We're not to be blamed for others' actions.
LUTHAIS
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:23 PM CDT
<< The same way that I wince a little inside every time I have a duel or something happen right in front of me. We're not to be blamed for others' actions.
I dunno... if you know, for a fact, that the consequences of your actions will produce a violent result, then you are partly responsible. If I give a gun to someone I know wants to go on a shooting rampage, and they act on that desire, I should still take a good part of the blame for those actions even though I did not perform or even encourage them. I, as an enabler, contributed to it willingly and helped bring it about knowing the consequences.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with choosing to take the stance that sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Just take responsibility for it and don't hide behind the notion that it was not your doing. Of course, you could always choose to play an Empath that is in complete self-denial about their actions... could be fun too!
Murithi
I dunno... if you know, for a fact, that the consequences of your actions will produce a violent result, then you are partly responsible. If I give a gun to someone I know wants to go on a shooting rampage, and they act on that desire, I should still take a good part of the blame for those actions even though I did not perform or even encourage them. I, as an enabler, contributed to it willingly and helped bring it about knowing the consequences.
With that said, there is nothing wrong with choosing to take the stance that sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Just take responsibility for it and don't hide behind the notion that it was not your doing. Of course, you could always choose to play an Empath that is in complete self-denial about their actions... could be fun too!
Murithi
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:28 PM CDT
>>I dunno... if you know, for a fact, that the consequences of your actions will produce a violent result, then you are partly responsible.
At least with manipulate, the creatures don't always seem to attack others. Sometimes they just wander off. Like Shalswar, for instance. Every damn time. Damnit. I want them to buck off their riders and then kill them. But nooo. I have never gotten a Shaswar to attack another shalswar.
Alfar also only attack creatures that are facing the Empath. If the creature retreats or starts attacking the Alfar, the Alfar stops attacking the creature. The creature seals its own fate by persisting in its attack against the Empath.
So there's a little leeway in there for pacifist Empaths.
-- Player of Szrael --
"The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck." (Armifer)
At least with manipulate, the creatures don't always seem to attack others. Sometimes they just wander off. Like Shalswar, for instance. Every damn time. Damnit. I want them to buck off their riders and then kill them. But nooo. I have never gotten a Shaswar to attack another shalswar.
Alfar also only attack creatures that are facing the Empath. If the creature retreats or starts attacking the Alfar, the Alfar stops attacking the creature. The creature seals its own fate by persisting in its attack against the Empath.
So there's a little leeway in there for pacifist Empaths.
-- Player of Szrael --
"The Empath spellbook is a riddle trapped in an enigma hidden inside a lot of suck." (Armifer)
FEIGERZ
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:36 PM CDT
To preface, I fully realize this is merely opinion of lore, so shouldn't have any bearing on in game actualities. Just you know, conversation about something in game.
My understanding of how we heal is that we are so Empathic, so understanding of our patients, that we literally take their pain from them. Empathic shock occurs when our actions cause pain in others, which runs so 180degrees against what we know and believe in, that our empathy is damaged.
I understand that we can filter this a bit, so sitting in the same room as someone killing a critter shouldn't cause our heads to explode, but it should, IMO, cause us to wince and feel discomfort. Just from the empathy side of things. Now, of course if someone we care for is being attacked, we can execute defensive measures, like blocking incoming attacks or avoiding them all together. But I would imagine that a violent action to prevent further action would still cause us problems. The experience of violence would bother us.
Now understand, I fully plan on having my empath learn GS and killing things. He's a salty, angry, spiteful healer. Maybe the notion of touching a patient to form the connection is key. So long as I haven't touched something (or bashed with a weapon [ranged weapons being an extension of action]), it's death shouldn't bother me too much. But I dunno.
Just thinking outloud.
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
My understanding of how we heal is that we are so Empathic, so understanding of our patients, that we literally take their pain from them. Empathic shock occurs when our actions cause pain in others, which runs so 180degrees against what we know and believe in, that our empathy is damaged.
I understand that we can filter this a bit, so sitting in the same room as someone killing a critter shouldn't cause our heads to explode, but it should, IMO, cause us to wince and feel discomfort. Just from the empathy side of things. Now, of course if someone we care for is being attacked, we can execute defensive measures, like blocking incoming attacks or avoiding them all together. But I would imagine that a violent action to prevent further action would still cause us problems. The experience of violence would bother us.
Now understand, I fully plan on having my empath learn GS and killing things. He's a salty, angry, spiteful healer. Maybe the notion of touching a patient to form the connection is key. So long as I haven't touched something (or bashed with a weapon [ranged weapons being an extension of action]), it's death shouldn't bother me too much. But I dunno.
Just thinking outloud.
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 05:51 PM CDT
http://elanthipedia.com/wiki/Empathic_shock
Rev. Reene
"Down there are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity...They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
Rev. Reene
"Down there are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity...They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 06:27 PM CDT
Murder them all, all of them, genocide with the power of pacifism.
-Joshua, player of Malkien
-Joshua, player of Malkien
DELVER
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 08:26 PM CDT
>Alfar also only attack creatures that are facing the Empath. If the creature retreats or starts attacking the Alfar, the Alfar stops attacking the creature. The creature seals its own fate by persisting in its attack against the Empath.
With all due respect Lorz that's a bit oversimplified. With a single creature if the creature backs away from the Empath the Avenger will continue to advance it until the creature leaves or turns on the Avenger.
When it becomes a multi situation even if the first creature has turned on the Avenger if another creature advances or attacks the Empath the Avenger will attack the first creature even though it is not threatening the Empath.
You can summon a GS and remain the pacifist by not calling an Avenger. You as the Empath make that conscious choice of what is called.
Take it a step further in thought. A pacifist calls a non-aggressive GS that is then killed by an attacking creature. You the pacifist have caused the death of the GS. Your direct actions produced a violent result.
So are you better off never calling a GS? Use Innocence when confronted? Flee immediately? Hide and slink away? Should you just avoid any possibility of confrontation and never see the world at large?
Asbhuan
With all due respect Lorz that's a bit oversimplified. With a single creature if the creature backs away from the Empath the Avenger will continue to advance it until the creature leaves or turns on the Avenger.
When it becomes a multi situation even if the first creature has turned on the Avenger if another creature advances or attacks the Empath the Avenger will attack the first creature even though it is not threatening the Empath.
You can summon a GS and remain the pacifist by not calling an Avenger. You as the Empath make that conscious choice of what is called.
Take it a step further in thought. A pacifist calls a non-aggressive GS that is then killed by an attacking creature. You the pacifist have caused the death of the GS. Your direct actions produced a violent result.
So are you better off never calling a GS? Use Innocence when confronted? Flee immediately? Hide and slink away? Should you just avoid any possibility of confrontation and never see the world at large?
Asbhuan
FEIGERZ
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/17/2009 11:52 PM CDT
The notion of intent seems to be clutch, but also heavily tied to actual damage. It's hard to maintain a moral high ground by summoning an avenger and looking for a fight, and similarly difficult to defend causing injury to another even if they are causing injury to you.
I've an image of a healer able to dodge and avoid contact like the finest of Tai Chi masters, but wincing in agony every time their assailant trips, or pulls a muscle reaching for a target that won't stay put.
And manipulating a creature to attack another? I fail to see how that avoids intent of aggression.
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
I've an image of a healer able to dodge and avoid contact like the finest of Tai Chi masters, but wincing in agony every time their assailant trips, or pulls a muscle reaching for a target that won't stay put.
And manipulating a creature to attack another? I fail to see how that avoids intent of aggression.
I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/18/2009 12:03 AM CDT
If your Empath has a personal, IC problem with causing harm, then these things may be an issue and you should RP appropriately. It would be impossible to come up with an all-encompassing viewpoint that accounted for every possible character quirk.
If they do not have a problem with the notion of causing harm in any respect, then this is a moot point, since Empathy and Empathic Shock have nothing to do with either morals or divine edict.
Rev. Reene
"Down there are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity...They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
If they do not have a problem with the notion of causing harm in any respect, then this is a moot point, since Empathy and Empathic Shock have nothing to do with either morals or divine edict.
Rev. Reene
"Down there are people who will follow any dragon, worship any god, ignore any inequity...They accept evil not because they say yes, but because they don't say no."
LOFTONM1
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/18/2009 03:59 PM CDT
>>And manipulating a creature to attack another? I fail to see how that avoids intent of aggression.
It all boils down to choice. As the manipulating empath, you can set up conditions that steer the situation to a particular resolution, but ultimately the critter is the one that makes the choice. Therefore, intent doesn't at all apply.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
It all boils down to choice. As the manipulating empath, you can set up conditions that steer the situation to a particular resolution, but ultimately the critter is the one that makes the choice. Therefore, intent doesn't at all apply.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/18/2009 04:00 PM CDT
Intent kind of still applies since you know what will happen, even though you cannot actually manipulate a creature into directly attacking another.
Rev. Reene
You hear the voice of Tachid exclaim, "Furries aren't supposed to be living!"
Rev. Reene
You hear the voice of Tachid exclaim, "Furries aren't supposed to be living!"
BLUTURTL1428
Re: Probably already answered, but:
04/18/2009 04:46 PM CDT
i have manipulated creatures and then just look at me and walk out of the room. it seems, they get to pick how good of a friend they are to you.
HLENDA123
Re: Probably already answered, but:
05/01/2009 10:18 PM CDT
>I'm sure this has been hashed over, but I was talking to a coworker about the ethics behind Guardian Spirit, or to a lesser degree, Manipulating a critter to kill another critter.
>How does this jive RP wise?
Think of empathy as a hyper-awareness of life forces; the more empathy you have, the more aware of life forces you are. By the physics of Elanthia, inflicting harm on things dulls awareness of life forces, so as an empath you generally want to avoid that (because it's that awareness that lets you do most of the things that only you can do). This doesn't make you a pacifist, it just disinclines you to directly cause harm to things.
Using a Guardian Spirit and manipulation to indirectly cause harm to things doesn't impact your sense of life forces (again, this is just the physics of Elanthia), so there's no disincentive to use them. Why is it that causing something else to kill someone, and casting a spell to kill someone are different? Who knows! That's just the way it is in Elanthia.
>How does this jive RP wise?
Think of empathy as a hyper-awareness of life forces; the more empathy you have, the more aware of life forces you are. By the physics of Elanthia, inflicting harm on things dulls awareness of life forces, so as an empath you generally want to avoid that (because it's that awareness that lets you do most of the things that only you can do). This doesn't make you a pacifist, it just disinclines you to directly cause harm to things.
Using a Guardian Spirit and manipulation to indirectly cause harm to things doesn't impact your sense of life forces (again, this is just the physics of Elanthia), so there's no disincentive to use them. Why is it that causing something else to kill someone, and casting a spell to kill someone are different? Who knows! That's just the way it is in Elanthia.
BALLD1
Re: Probably already answered, but:
05/01/2009 11:59 PM CDT
The way I look at it observing an avenger or another critter inflict harm on another creature or person, enhances empathy, as an empath observes and vicariously shares their pain. Squiff views it as an essential part of his quest to improve his empathy, and actively seeks out situations where he can observe pain, whether it be in triage or in the field. The more he sees, the better his understanding.
SQUIFF
Not circling, SHIFTING!
SQUIFF
Not circling, SHIFTING!
LEGERES
Re: Probably already answered, but:
05/02/2009 04:31 AM CDT
another way to look at is:
manipulating:
we aren't manipulating them to go all out and kill stuff, we are just manipulating them to stop attacking us, to see us as a friend
if they choose to attack other things then it's their prerogative
guardian spirits:
i still hold that we don't control these either, what they do is by there choice, sure we can ask them to do things and more likely they will but they can still refuse
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
manipulating:
we aren't manipulating them to go all out and kill stuff, we are just manipulating them to stop attacking us, to see us as a friend
if they choose to attack other things then it's their prerogative
guardian spirits:
i still hold that we don't control these either, what they do is by there choice, sure we can ask them to do things and more likely they will but they can still refuse
--
If life doesn't need intelligence,
Then why should intelligence need life?
--
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Legeres
http://www.myspace.com/ledge_ear_us
http://legeres.deviantart.com
SCHULTZS3
Re: Probably already answered, but:
05/02/2009 09:16 PM CDT
>>i still hold that we don't control these either, what they do is by there choice, sure we can ask them to do things and more likely they will but they can still refuse<<
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html
