There you go Annael, I told you Raudhan started it all, now you have the proof from her own lips. my sting operation worked


Souv

You sense (N, S) from your current position:
A relatively healthy presence nearby.
Roundtime: 6 seconds

Ok, so I am now eligible to learn manipulation, woot!!

I'm currently in Haven. Anyone out there willing to help me learn to manipulate? Would be greatly appreciated.

Am willing to go to Theren or Crossing if needed!

Thanks much,

Toccacura

Ok, so I'm a ninny and forgot that I need 100 in empathy as well as being 20th....so will have to gain 9 more ranks.

OOPS! Thanks for the offers of help though!

>>Ok, so I'm a ninny and forgot that I need 100 in empathy as well as being 20th....so will have to gain 9 more ranks.

OOPS! Thanks for the offers of help though!<<

LOL, right behind me then, except I'm holding off circling to 20 until I havce the 100 empathy ranks.

PoKaeta Airtag

I'm never in the same place more than a week, I'm in crossing now


Souv

You sense (N, S) from your current position:
A relatively healthy presence nearby.
Roundtime: 6 seconds

<<It's really quite underpowered in comparison to Innocence, which can be rather frustrating when defending against creatures calling for use of the Aesandry Darlaeth spell.>>

Innocence is a spell and Manipulate is an ability. One has a very specific thing it does, makes the critters go away, the other gives a change of the critter attacking other players or critters in the room. I have no idea what AD has to do with anything regarding Innocence of Manipulate.

<<Assuming that the stats taken into account for both the user and the target do not vary from Innocence to Manipulate, this seems way out of whack to me.>>

While the stats that are taking into account may be the same, in the way they are caculated is probably very diffrent. You also have to remember what Innocence is, a spell vs stat spell. As long as you can win the stat challenge and resistance your spell will go off. Manipulate doesn't work exactly the same way. Nor do I see a reason for it to.

Other then the fact both spell and ability can turn a critter from a room they are very diffrent and not what I'd use to compare power.

Now, that all said, I'd love to see manipulate boosted up. Either via a spell or something that makes it easier to manipulate and reduices the needed concentration across the board. I'd also love if manipulate friendship gave a bit of a boost to the critter. A stat or skill mod based on our own skills and stats. At least that way we wouldn't deal with the scuff-to-death show quite so much.

<<Oh, and insert the obligatory request to add a way to break manipulation links here.>>

This I fully second.

~Nexty

<<The function of both Manipulate and Innocence is to prevent one or more attackers from attacking the user.>>

Yes that is true, but Manipulate also has a secondary function. That secondary function may very well make the ability less flexable then a spell that only has one. That whole game balance thing.

<<With AD up, casting Innocence is a pain due to the whole held mana thing.

Isn't that the point of held mana spells though? You gain a bonus but lose the ability to cast any other spell while retaining the spell's bonus.

<<Manipulate then becomes the logical choice to try and keep the additional attacker away,>>

Yes, Manipulate would then be the next logical choice. But there are other things you can do when manipulate fails. You could toss out a general innocence, and get everything off of you for a bit, then cast a few aimed innocence spells to get rid of the things that you need to get rid of, then cast AD again and re-engaged the critters.

<<Even if you do win the stat contest, that doesn't necessarily mean the critter will go "away". If you succeed only by a small margin, it will simply disengage you and remain in the room. Therefore, it seems off to me that I can succeed by a sufficiently large margin with such a relatively little amount of mana using Innocence but have a 0% chance of success with Manipulate despite having greater skill.>>

The thing about spell vs stat spells is mana can really help boost the spell up as long as you pass the check. At least if I understand spell vs stat spells correctly and I'm willing to be disproven on this point. But, a 20 mana cast might be just enough to push the spell into the "Critter Gone" zone.

Your example of being able to cast the spell at 40 mana is meaningless as far as getting the spell to get critters gone goes. It just shows you have the magic skill to cast the spell at that amount of mana. Actually effecting critters also takes the stat contest into play as well. It just might be easier to get spell vs will spells off then it is to manipulate.

Also, we really don't know what exactly is taken into account when we manipulate on the critters side. It might be the same stats as a Will contest, but the actual caculation may be very diffrent. There may be a hidden stat that effects manipulate that is based on some factor from the critter. It may also just be harder to manipulate some types of life. Human-like things may be easier then say an insect.

I'm also willing to accept that there is a horrable bug with the manipulate system and for some critters it is far harder then it should be to manipulate them.

This is the problem we players run into with PAFO systems. It's hard to suggest changes when we can't be sure if things are even working the way they should or if there is something we are doing wrong that could be changed. Even if we didn't know what that change needs to be, just knowing that if we changed something we'd be better off.

All this aside, I still agree that the ability should get a boost. I just don't agree with your sited reasons.

The system itself should be updated to scale with PCs. As we get stronger we should be able to train down the concentration it takes to manipulate. It shouldn't be the same to manipulate a snowbeast for the 100th circle Empath as it is the 20th circle Empath. That alone might actually fix the problem you are currently having.

~Nexty

To teach somebody:

manip friend somebody

manip friend creature

Poof.

---
-Clemency
---
"Put your head up to my heart, hear me live and follow suit, this will all be over soon, it's gonna hurt a little." -Emberghost

>the reqs are 20th circle and 100 ranks of empathy

Oh, and maybe this is common knowledge for most already but I didn't know this would work. Someone came to me to learn manipulate with just 96 ranks of empathy. Just for grins I had her try linking empathy. Once she did, I could get her attention and I was able to teach her. Nifty!

~ Gwynfydedig

A pure white alfar avenger whispers, "Heyas! The name's Fred. Nice to meet ya, Gwynfydedig!"

Want to know more about the Battle Empath Council? Visit: http://www.geocities.com/saerhyn/ESC/BattleEmpath.html

Clever, I never thought about trying that. Sure would make the wall from 99 to 100 less climatic.

And can you really fit a cue ball in your mouth? I saw a guy do it once...then swallow it...then regurgitate it :O

---
-Clemency
---
"Put your head up to my heart, hear me live and follow suit, this will all be over soon, it's gonna hurt a little." -Emberghost

<<Yep, 100 effective ranks of empathy and 20th circle are the reqs. Effective ranks meaning you can link, use a CJ, etc.>>

I was looking for information on guardian spirits and I found this thread, thought I would respond. I learned manipulation at 17th (or just barely 18th) circle and 100 flat ranks. All mentals above 20 if that matters (except charisma which was at 10)

The "What matters more is that the teacher must be circle 40 or above, even if they meet the empathy req." is incorrect. I personally taught 2 different empaths to manipulate when I was under 40th. One when I was 38th, with enough empathy for 41st, and one when I was 39th with enough empathy for 43rd.

Dapackrick
~Player of Aleerayn~

Er learned manipulate, sorry. It's been a REALLY long day =(


~Arwinia

It's mind over matter. I don't mind, because you don't matter.

>>is this because bloodvines are too easy for me

yes

~Arwinia

Thieves will continue to be dominated by the awesome power of the perceive health ability - that which causes rivers to dry up, babies to cry, and the earth to shake.
Stand back mortal, lest ye health be perceived.
-Ssra

Neat idea but I shudder to consider the possible effect on Concentration in a really crowded room.

~ Player of Farman et al.

http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Main_Page

This has been brought up in the past, but I want to bring it up again, because well... I think it needs to be changed. Just a warning for those of you who may not want to read rehashed suggestions.

Recently, I've been venturing into hunting areas more frequently than I have in the past. So I've been playing with manipulate more and more. While manipulate is great for getting a critter on your side solo, its pretty much useless when I want to hunt with friends.

I want to propose that someone seriously consider making the Empath's group immune to hostility from a manipulated critter. If I wanted to get a creature off me, I'd just cast innocence, but manipulate is sort of my 'attack' and right now its akin to essentially attacking a party member.

Not only is it annoying that my manipulated creature attacks my hunting companions, I also don't really kill anything. In practice, I've found that people sorta just take the loot from the creatures they've personally killed when they hunt together. This leaves me without a claim to any loot because technically, I didn't kill anything. Now, I've been in situations where this wasn't the case, but still, I feel left like I wasn't contributing much.

Also... can we look into decreasing the chance that a manipulated critter will just wander away instead of engaging? I know that in theory, we're not forcing them to attack for us, but that is ever so annoying. Nine seconds of RT... and they leave while I'm still stuck without helping at all. Then I sit around waiting for a second creature to wander in to help me out.

Any thoughts on this from others?

Shaunn

>>I want to propose that someone seriously consider making the Empath's group immune to hostility from a manipulated critter.

Unsolicited opinion ahead ->

I can see this as a skill-based feat; when you want to manipulate normally, you're just sending a very simple communication: "I'm not the droid you're looking for."

However, if you want it to include your buds in that category, you've got to let it know that they aren't, as well. Requisite skill proportionate to size of group.

Unless I'm mistaken about the IC theory behind manipulate...

>>I want to propose that someone seriously consider making the Empath's group immune to hostility from a manipulated critter.<<

As a hunter who often hunts with an empath, I personally would hate that. Manipulate works great for the empath I hunt with as well as me by allowing her to send a critter off her and over to me, especially when in a slow area or when she has 3 on her and none on me. But that is just my 2 coppers.


~Eoworfinia~
Dartenian fades into view.
A horde of Lawrence Welk fans decend on the area.
Dartenian whimpers softly.