Due to the way the new experience system works, all it really does is show us how pathetic our systems have always been.
I keep begging for a boost to our empathy experience across the board as a bandaid, but who knows when it'll get done.
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
IDONS-BUDDY
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:45 PM CDT
<<Fran is my main character, and I am already disheartened at how hard it is to learn empathy now-a-days, but with the new system in place Fran might as well just be listening to carrot planting classes all day.
The changes to EXP did nothing to make you learn less. The same actions you did prior to the change provide the same experience post-change. There are two changes that change the perception of experience earned, however.
The first difference is in the relative level of how full your experience pool. Since pool sizes are now effectively tripled, you will effectively end up at approximately 1/3 of the relative amount under the new system as compared to the old system (see part 2 below.) The number of bits of experience earned is still identical under both systems given the same actions performed. Using your example, that 3% of a rank you earned is what you would have earned under the old system for doing the exact same thing.
The second change is in the increased speed with which the bits get converted into actual ranks. All this affects is the rate at which it happens. This is why it can be hard to achieve higher mindstates in some skills; your mindstate drops relatively more per pulse under the new system than it did the old.
In summary, its not harder or slower to earn empathy experience. In fact it is identically easy/hard under both systems. It is harder to achieve higher mindstates under the new system, however, which can lead to a perception of slower learning. Given the second part above, you are actually earning the same amount of experience faster than you were before. Hope this clarifies this for you.
Disclaimer: this of course all assumes there were no bugs introduced into empathy experience in relation to the new system.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
The changes to EXP did nothing to make you learn less. The same actions you did prior to the change provide the same experience post-change. There are two changes that change the perception of experience earned, however.
The first difference is in the relative level of how full your experience pool. Since pool sizes are now effectively tripled, you will effectively end up at approximately 1/3 of the relative amount under the new system as compared to the old system (see part 2 below.) The number of bits of experience earned is still identical under both systems given the same actions performed. Using your example, that 3% of a rank you earned is what you would have earned under the old system for doing the exact same thing.
The second change is in the increased speed with which the bits get converted into actual ranks. All this affects is the rate at which it happens. This is why it can be hard to achieve higher mindstates in some skills; your mindstate drops relatively more per pulse under the new system than it did the old.
In summary, its not harder or slower to earn empathy experience. In fact it is identically easy/hard under both systems. It is harder to achieve higher mindstates under the new system, however, which can lead to a perception of slower learning. Given the second part above, you are actually earning the same amount of experience faster than you were before. Hope this clarifies this for you.
Disclaimer: this of course all assumes there were no bugs introduced into empathy experience in relation to the new system.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:46 PM CDT
<<Due to the way the new experience system works, all it really does is show us how pathetic our systems have always been.
Sorry for the double post, but this in a nut-shell. ^^^^ Its not the new experience system that is the problem.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
Sorry for the double post, but this in a nut-shell. ^^^^ Its not the new experience system that is the problem.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:47 PM CDT
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if there is a bug, but that's also to do with how bad our systems are in general.
Something that gets me locked or close to locking under the old system gets me to 5/34 now. That seems... odd.
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
Something that gets me locked or close to locking under the old system gets me to 5/34 now. That seems... odd.
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:50 PM CDT
<<Something that gets me locked or close to locking under the old system gets me to 5/34 now. That seems... odd.
Its possible of course, but under the new system the old mindlock is approx 11/34. 5/34 is not that much of a stretch given the faster drain rate, especially for tasks that take a bit of time to do.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
Its possible of course, but under the new system the old mindlock is approx 11/34. 5/34 is not that much of a stretch given the faster drain rate, especially for tasks that take a bit of time to do.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:52 PM CDT
Healing someone from super wounded to nothing takes me less than a minute.
I don't know what kind of terribad empath you play, but the speed of experience gain is not the problem.
The other problem is what Pendus mentioned in the other folder; once I'm wounded, that's it. I can't keep gaining experience until infinity because I have to take time to heal down.
pls fix
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
I don't know what kind of terribad empath you play, but the speed of experience gain is not the problem.
The other problem is what Pendus mentioned in the other folder; once I'm wounded, that's it. I can't keep gaining experience until infinity because I have to take time to heal down.
pls fix
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 10:58 PM CDT
<<Healing someone from super wounded to nothing takes me less than a minute.
<<I don't know what kind of terribad empath you play, but the speed of experience gain is not the problem.
I was thinking more of perceive health walking when referring to tasks that take time, but thanks for the snark. Backatcha.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
<<I don't know what kind of terribad empath you play, but the speed of experience gain is not the problem.
I was thinking more of perceive health walking when referring to tasks that take time, but thanks for the snark. Backatcha.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
IDONS-BUDDY
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 11:01 PM CDT
We're talking about healing not perceive health.
I understand if the thread started with "my health walk routine doesn't teach me!" but we're both talking about how much healing teaches us.
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
I understand if the thread started with "my health walk routine doesn't teach me!" but we're both talking about how much healing teaches us.
Rev. Reene
Kssarh says, "At least I have not had another Guildleader complain about you in a while."
>
Kssarh says, "Which is rather disappointing. You have a reputation to uphold."
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 11:05 PM CDT
But the OP specifically mentions powerwalking...
The similar thread you started in a different folder is about healing specifically. Kindly keep your crusades contained. (joke)
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
The similar thread you started in a different folder is about healing specifically. Kindly keep your crusades contained. (joke)
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/13/2009 11:06 PM CDT
Terribad Empath Szrael just arrived.
I like it.
In other news, I, too, am underwhelmed by the EXP gained from actually healing. Szrael is still under 50th circle, and has to heal herself almost to death in order to outpace the drain.
-- Player of Szrael --
I like it.
In other news, I, too, am underwhelmed by the EXP gained from actually healing. Szrael is still under 50th circle, and has to heal herself almost to death in order to outpace the drain.
-- Player of Szrael --
MOD-TNEGAD
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 01:49 AM CDT
Please keep posts away from personal attacks :). Thank you!
Board Monitor Tnegad
Please email questions or comments to MOD-Tnegad@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Annwyl at DR-Annwyl@play.net, or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@play.net. Thank you.
Board Monitor Tnegad
Please email questions or comments to MOD-Tnegad@play.net, Senior Board Monitor Annwyl at DR-Annwyl@play.net, or Board Supervisor Cecco at DR-Cecco@play.net. Thank you.
LAMBL
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 06:05 AM CDT
A couple weeks ago in Test, before all this went live in Prime, I arranged to heal a disintegrated Moon Mage to see how Empathy did. I blasted through his injuries in maybe a minute (probably less), and Empathy got up to about 23/34 with...probably around 612 ranks or so. That's pretty decent, I thought, but it's also an extreme case. Maybe someone will run across that situation soon in Prime to see if it still works that well (please don't go asking people to blow themselves up though, that's terribly jarring).
On a more amusing note, the fatigue pool changes over there caused this to take my fatigue-o-meter down from 100% to like 97%, which is a rather stark contrast from having to sit at 0% for like five minutes with Refresh and Zephyr and Lilt and a Glyph of Ease or two before going positive again. Not that this really means anything, I just found it funny.
Thanks,
-Death's Nemesis Karthor
On a more amusing note, the fatigue pool changes over there caused this to take my fatigue-o-meter down from 100% to like 97%, which is a rather stark contrast from having to sit at 0% for like five minutes with Refresh and Zephyr and Lilt and a Glyph of Ease or two before going positive again. Not that this really means anything, I just found it funny.
Thanks,
-Death's Nemesis Karthor
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 07:19 AM CDT
>>That's pretty decent, I thought, but it's also an extreme case.
Yes, I'm not sure that disintegration is what we really want to use as a measuring stick.
My Empath could heal random people for an hour and not get that many wounds, and clearly not get them that quickly (even if I dropped the Union RP and just had her heal every single person who came in the door).
I think the only way she could even hope to get somewhere in that vicinity is by going to hunting areas and just healing people without permission. Even the Crossing Empath guild can't generate wounds that quickly.
And that of course, is still way, way less efficient than perc healthing, and requires her to stop and heal herself for 10 or 20 minutes, or longer. She used to be able to go to Willow Walk or the Vela'tohr (or various places in other provinces) to speed the healing time up, as many Empaths could, but that is also no longer possible. The mana changes made healing other people for Empathy yet more inefficient, which is a huge step in the wrong direction, I think.
-- Player of Szrael --
Yes, I'm not sure that disintegration is what we really want to use as a measuring stick.
My Empath could heal random people for an hour and not get that many wounds, and clearly not get them that quickly (even if I dropped the Union RP and just had her heal every single person who came in the door).
I think the only way she could even hope to get somewhere in that vicinity is by going to hunting areas and just healing people without permission. Even the Crossing Empath guild can't generate wounds that quickly.
And that of course, is still way, way less efficient than perc healthing, and requires her to stop and heal herself for 10 or 20 minutes, or longer. She used to be able to go to Willow Walk or the Vela'tohr (or various places in other provinces) to speed the healing time up, as many Empaths could, but that is also no longer possible. The mana changes made healing other people for Empathy yet more inefficient, which is a huge step in the wrong direction, I think.
-- Player of Szrael --
SCHULTZS3
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 10:20 AM CDT
>>The mana changes made healing other people for Empathy yet more inefficient, which is a huge step in the wrong direction, I think.<<
Yes, I'm frustrated that I can't find anything better than lambent.
I'm power walking until I find shining or better.
Yes, I'm frustrated that I can't find anything better than lambent.
I'm power walking until I find shining or better.
ANNEGRAY
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 01:42 PM CDT
Mook1
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the information you have provided as it relates to empathy. Prior to the new exp. system being put into place, my normal mode of play would gain me at least a rank or most of a rank of empathy in four hours of play. I could count on this and knew when I had to work harder to get over the bump so as to be able to circle. Even the dreaded wall ranks would not have me wanting to pull my hair out in frustration, or complaining to my boy friend every time I talk with him (sorry love). When the new experience system when online, I was looking at 204 in empathy and was at 43% towards the next rank. Since the change I have been in game about 12 hours, and have earned less then 10% towards the next rank of empathy, so I have moved up to 204 with 51% towards my next rank. All of the other skills I work on a regular basis have earned ranks, and I have earned about 50 TDP's which is my norm for 12 hours of play. Based on what you stated, I should be learning empathy faster, and should be well ahead of my norm for the time invested.
Just to be clear I wasn't just talking about powerwalking, I have never relied on powerwalking to learn ranks. I work all in combination. This way I make sure the skills I have been learning remain constant, and not drain completely away from my comfortable learning zone. I believe what I mentioned was I had healed a dead person, a box blower, and perceived health, I also studied my compendium, all of which should have at least gained me (based on the old model) somewhere near a rank of empathy instead of less than what was about 4%. I was in game for a few hours last night, not more than 4, but not less than 3, just for clarification purposes.
As Reene pointed it out, it seems very odd that something that would get me locked before, (See above description of a normal 4 hour period of play for me) will only get my skill to show empathy as 1/34, which quickly drains, (as I work healing myself to move on to the next patient, or wait for the time to be able to perc health again (while hunting) or even the time to be able to work my compendium) and is once again at clear so I am not learning a single thing.
I believe Szrael puts it best, we do seem to have taken a step backwards. I can only hope someone figures out how to correct what I perceive as a major issue with playing an empath. I love some of the new changes which seem to be coming down the pipeline, am reluctant about others, I can only hope this issue will shine a light on the difficulties empaths have in learning the skill they most need, to make the guild something interesting and fun again. I don't want to have to chase moonmages with a bucket to have to learn the skill I need to grow in the guild. But if any moonmages want to make themselves in to moonmage goo for Fran, she is in Shard, and will gladly remix you into a solid bit of moonmage again while this whole situation is being looked into (I hope).
Sincerely,
Player of Francelia (the lost empath)
P.S sorry about the long post.
______________________________________
Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong. ~Terry Prachett~
I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the information you have provided as it relates to empathy. Prior to the new exp. system being put into place, my normal mode of play would gain me at least a rank or most of a rank of empathy in four hours of play. I could count on this and knew when I had to work harder to get over the bump so as to be able to circle. Even the dreaded wall ranks would not have me wanting to pull my hair out in frustration, or complaining to my boy friend every time I talk with him (sorry love). When the new experience system when online, I was looking at 204 in empathy and was at 43% towards the next rank. Since the change I have been in game about 12 hours, and have earned less then 10% towards the next rank of empathy, so I have moved up to 204 with 51% towards my next rank. All of the other skills I work on a regular basis have earned ranks, and I have earned about 50 TDP's which is my norm for 12 hours of play. Based on what you stated, I should be learning empathy faster, and should be well ahead of my norm for the time invested.
Just to be clear I wasn't just talking about powerwalking, I have never relied on powerwalking to learn ranks. I work all in combination. This way I make sure the skills I have been learning remain constant, and not drain completely away from my comfortable learning zone. I believe what I mentioned was I had healed a dead person, a box blower, and perceived health, I also studied my compendium, all of which should have at least gained me (based on the old model) somewhere near a rank of empathy instead of less than what was about 4%. I was in game for a few hours last night, not more than 4, but not less than 3, just for clarification purposes.
As Reene pointed it out, it seems very odd that something that would get me locked before, (See above description of a normal 4 hour period of play for me) will only get my skill to show empathy as 1/34, which quickly drains, (as I work healing myself to move on to the next patient, or wait for the time to be able to perc health again (while hunting) or even the time to be able to work my compendium) and is once again at clear so I am not learning a single thing.
I believe Szrael puts it best, we do seem to have taken a step backwards. I can only hope someone figures out how to correct what I perceive as a major issue with playing an empath. I love some of the new changes which seem to be coming down the pipeline, am reluctant about others, I can only hope this issue will shine a light on the difficulties empaths have in learning the skill they most need, to make the guild something interesting and fun again. I don't want to have to chase moonmages with a bucket to have to learn the skill I need to grow in the guild. But if any moonmages want to make themselves in to moonmage goo for Fran, she is in Shard, and will gladly remix you into a solid bit of moonmage again while this whole situation is being looked into (I hope).
Sincerely,
Player of Francelia (the lost empath)
P.S sorry about the long post.
______________________________________
Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong. ~Terry Prachett~
LORZELOPHIA
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 02:14 PM CDT
>>chase moonmages with a bucket
tee hee
-- Player of Szrael --
tee hee
-- Player of Szrael --
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 02:43 PM CDT
>>Yes, I'm frustrated that I can't find anything better than lambent. I'm power walking until I find shining or better.
When comparing the two PP systems, do not rely on the messaging. The power scale is entirely different, both in adjectives and in how it's weighted. Compare prep tests or actual spellcasting results.
At Lambent you are already seeing mana greater than any room can provide (Your room value + PP bouns = greater than room value limit). Depending on your skills, you may simply not be capable of seeing anything greater for now.
While mana growth is not linear (you gain more, faster, at lower ranks of PP), the mana scale was weighted to take into account 2000 ranks worth of PP growth and access to mana boosters beside. Do not expect to sit at the top of the scale casually, nor anticipate that you need to do so to cast effectively.
-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.
When comparing the two PP systems, do not rely on the messaging. The power scale is entirely different, both in adjectives and in how it's weighted. Compare prep tests or actual spellcasting results.
At Lambent you are already seeing mana greater than any room can provide (Your room value + PP bouns = greater than room value limit). Depending on your skills, you may simply not be capable of seeing anything greater for now.
While mana growth is not linear (you gain more, faster, at lower ranks of PP), the mana scale was weighted to take into account 2000 ranks worth of PP growth and access to mana boosters beside. Do not expect to sit at the top of the scale casually, nor anticipate that you need to do so to cast effectively.
-Armifer
<Kvlt> Step 1: Want stuff! Step 2: Be ambitious! Step 3: Believe in the ability of your fellow man to carry you to heights you are too incompetent to reach alone.
MOOK1
Re: Experience System Changes.
07/14/2009 09:10 PM CDT
<<Sincerely,
<<Player of Francelia (the lost empath)
<<Just to be clear I wasn't just talking about powerwalking, I have never relied on powerwalking to learn ranks. I work all in combination.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying you were only powerwalking. Just that it factored into your experience and the discussion in this thread was about more than just healing experience.
As for the rest of your post... Read the disclaimer in my post. Everything I stated about how the experience system works now is correct. Your post indicates one of two possible things to me. Either there is a bug with empathy experience gained or since you are basing it on 'typical' actions rather than actual tests your observations are subjective. Well, there's a third possibility...
<<I believe what I mentioned was I had healed a dead person, a box blower, and perceived health, I also studied my compendium, all of which should have at least gained me (based on the old model) somewhere near a rank of empathy instead of less than what was about 4%. I was in game for a few hours last night, not more than 4, but not less than 3, just for clarification purposes.
Was this the first time you played after the changes? There's some wonkiness until you completely drain a skill if it had experience in it already or until you type EXP FIXWALL. Although I don't think it would have affected your situation, it might explain why you learned so little.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
<<Player of Francelia (the lost empath)
<<Just to be clear I wasn't just talking about powerwalking, I have never relied on powerwalking to learn ranks. I work all in combination.
Just to be clear, I wasn't saying you were only powerwalking. Just that it factored into your experience and the discussion in this thread was about more than just healing experience.
As for the rest of your post... Read the disclaimer in my post. Everything I stated about how the experience system works now is correct. Your post indicates one of two possible things to me. Either there is a bug with empathy experience gained or since you are basing it on 'typical' actions rather than actual tests your observations are subjective. Well, there's a third possibility...
<<I believe what I mentioned was I had healed a dead person, a box blower, and perceived health, I also studied my compendium, all of which should have at least gained me (based on the old model) somewhere near a rank of empathy instead of less than what was about 4%. I was in game for a few hours last night, not more than 4, but not less than 3, just for clarification purposes.
Was this the first time you played after the changes? There's some wonkiness until you completely drain a skill if it had experience in it already or until you type EXP FIXWALL. Although I don't think it would have affected your situation, it might explain why you learned so little.
-Evran
Crackling with unspent rage since 386A.V.
