So, reading Wythor's post about Blackfire and his reference to Teleology made me wonder about Clerics. I mean... Moon Mages have the Children as an Anti-Guild, while Warrior Mages have whatever-Wythor-comes-up-with. And Clerics? The people with, quite possibly, the most obvious foil for a deep lore development? Necromancers.
For some reason, this strikes me as annoying.
Sure, this game has several GvG pairings: Thieves versus Traders; Thieves versus Paladins; hrm, that's it, isn't it? On top of that, we've constructed a Cleric versus Moon Mage development, with an amusingly high (I mean like... ten, maybe) moon mages declaring atheism of one brand or another in a world where such a belief really ought to be a form of insanity. C'est la vie.
Anyways, I find intra-guild conflict more interesting than inter-guild conflict. I think this is why I find the proposition of Clerics versus Necromancers annoying: it seems to have virtually no possibility of being done right, and my gut tells me that the reason they haven't been released yet is because none of the people working on it can figure out how to do it right.
That's all very good. I'm getting to the point.
So, what I'd propose is some internecine conflict. I'm going to hand-wave and call for four factions, and I'm going to challenge you, the player, to fit your character into one of them, and to understand that this is intentionally stereotypical, but hey, Red versus Blue, it's like politics! (Oh wait, that's what it is...)
Faction 1: Necrocidals. Priority one: kill the necromancy, anywhere and everywhere. You consider the living to be usually beneath your notice, worth dispatching mostly if they get in the way. When the new guild comes out, you're the rabid zealot who commandeers empaths and moon mages to give you an extra edge in hunting down teh ev1l. If a posse is formed to hunt down a necromancer, you're the priest at their head, chanting protective blessings and rousing the fire.
Faction 2: Unity of Guild. You're the teacher's pet. If Tallis, or Esuin, or any guild authority says something, it's gospel. You strictly adhere to the guild position of Immortals are the true religion, everyone else is a potential convert or a blasphemer. The fact that Mrod-worshippers are accepted by the guild is really an indulgence, unstamped because there are Dragon Priests sitting around to be slain. If Tallis ever reverses her position, who knows which way you'll jump? Burn the heathens.
Faction 3: Sweetness and Light. Guild politics are irrelevant to the day-to-day of your life. You clean altars because people need favor orbs. You sit in triage locations all day and raise people outside of the invasion time. You have a primary devotion to a Positive aspect, even Eylhaar, or to one of the kindlier Neutral aspects, like Hodierna. You will help anyone, even a Necromancer, and you don't really mind dying for it.
Faction 4: Darkness Incarnate. (Yes, the opposite of #3.) You serve the primacy of a Negative aspect. It may be a blood-soaked Trothfang following, or a far more subtle theft with a whispered dedication to Damaris, if not Dergati. Guild politics are a boorish exercise beneath your service to the Immortals, and you are indiscriminate with your ruthlessness for achieving what you want.
<rubs head> Okay, so Faction 4 is terribly written. I ran out of steam, okay? And yes, their positions are intentionally provocative of the whole.
The point is that I want to offer people leverage in building their characters. All of the stuff I've noted isn't new; I was tempted to simply call Faction 3 "Hodiernists", for instance, in dedication to Syralon. But I'm writing it all down so that people can look at it as a collection.
These are, of course, stereotypes, as I mentioned before. But the point is that your character only needs to invoke the stereotype so that others make false assumptions about you, and then you can struggle with clearing that up while recognizing that other people in the same stereotype have similar priorities and goals, and thus you may want to take the false assumptions as a trade-off for gaining allies.
So I'd challenge people, again, to try to fit their character to these and see what comes out. It's less organic than I'd like, but we do what we can with what we have, and what we don't have are iconic GMPCs to handhold our way through intraguild disagreements, so we'll have to make do with players.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
DEVAN
TELGER
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 10:35 AM CST
Part of the issue is that the guild is so universal that it can encompass the evil Aldauthan alongside the happy Hodiernist. Each guildleader also seems to be given a certain degree of autonomy in running their own guildhall, so there isn't an all-powerful council to fight against.
That being said, I think there's room for a sorcerous anti-guild cult like the Blackfire Cabal or the Children of Kalestraum, and the Srithin event touched on this. It's just a pity it had to end when Srithin used undead, but it seems the guild's (or maybe just the gods') position on undead has been clarified somewhat to allow the use of noncorporeal undead. Perhaps a group can form that thinks the council is too smothering in its wide embrace and rebels. Maybe they think the council is too dominated by worshipers of the Light gods. Part of this rebellion can be dabbling in Domination Sorcery, which is a mixture of Holy & Lunar and focuses on compulsion & demonic control (which is actually evocation, but that's another issue). I think that's what will be the basis for Clerical sorcery, but last I've heard that's still a long way off.
As for the four groups, my cleric is #4 with elements of 1 & 2 (namely burn the undead, necros & heathens).
~Thilan
That being said, I think there's room for a sorcerous anti-guild cult like the Blackfire Cabal or the Children of Kalestraum, and the Srithin event touched on this. It's just a pity it had to end when Srithin used undead, but it seems the guild's (or maybe just the gods') position on undead has been clarified somewhat to allow the use of noncorporeal undead. Perhaps a group can form that thinks the council is too smothering in its wide embrace and rebels. Maybe they think the council is too dominated by worshipers of the Light gods. Part of this rebellion can be dabbling in Domination Sorcery, which is a mixture of Holy & Lunar and focuses on compulsion & demonic control (which is actually evocation, but that's another issue). I think that's what will be the basis for Clerical sorcery, but last I've heard that's still a long way off.
As for the four groups, my cleric is #4 with elements of 1 & 2 (namely burn the undead, necros & heathens).
~Thilan
ALDEN
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 10:46 AM CST
"So I'd challenge people, again, to try to fit their character to these and see what comes out."
Devan- of course my initial reaction is to reject this out of hand...but thinking about it more, you do bring an interesting challenge to players of clerics. Yes, I don't see Flavius as fitting in with any of your stereotypes completely, I see the value in identifying your characters inclinations and thinking about how your character would act accordingly.
I just went through and looked at your factions again, and Flavius is closest to #2, with a little bit of #1 and #3 thrown in. Flavius is guild-centric most assuredly, though more in a guild unity aspect than our guild leaders are unfallable.
But thinking about some of my favorite players, I think you left out a faction that is less of a faction than a subgroup- the Deist- the cleric who focuses their role based on their perception of a chosen god- my favorite of these was Cadderly with Phelim. Of your 4 factions, he would have been most closely aligned with #1, but in reality he cared less about those than being an arm for Phelim.
I understand how this could lead to high drama. I actually enjoyed the bit with Luceano because his extremism was a welcome opportunity for Flavius to defend the 'true' gods.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
Devan- of course my initial reaction is to reject this out of hand...but thinking about it more, you do bring an interesting challenge to players of clerics. Yes, I don't see Flavius as fitting in with any of your stereotypes completely, I see the value in identifying your characters inclinations and thinking about how your character would act accordingly.
I just went through and looked at your factions again, and Flavius is closest to #2, with a little bit of #1 and #3 thrown in. Flavius is guild-centric most assuredly, though more in a guild unity aspect than our guild leaders are unfallable.
But thinking about some of my favorite players, I think you left out a faction that is less of a faction than a subgroup- the Deist- the cleric who focuses their role based on their perception of a chosen god- my favorite of these was Cadderly with Phelim. Of your 4 factions, he would have been most closely aligned with #1, but in reality he cared less about those than being an arm for Phelim.
I understand how this could lead to high drama. I actually enjoyed the bit with Luceano because his extremism was a welcome opportunity for Flavius to defend the 'true' gods.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
TERRA
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 10:52 AM CST
I was always interested in seeing groups of worshippers. Like a player run Cult of Dergati. Of course, it would be so much cooler to know if there already was one, and I just didn't know about it.
I thought something like the Sisters of Albreda would be nice. My character is a Warrior/Scholar of Albreda, and I thought about starting a small faction but thought maybe it would just end up being too many gigglepuffs signing up because they have nothing else to do. Or a more general group, focusing on Tamsine/Albreda/Harawep.
Thoughts?
~ Terra
I thought something like the Sisters of Albreda would be nice. My character is a Warrior/Scholar of Albreda, and I thought about starting a small faction but thought maybe it would just end up being too many gigglepuffs signing up because they have nothing else to do. Or a more general group, focusing on Tamsine/Albreda/Harawep.
Thoughts?
~ Terra
MACCABEE1
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 11:36 AM CST
the "atheism" expressed by some MM in a way stems from the top - if you ask Kssarh what he thinks abuot various guildleaders, take a look at what he says regarding Esuin.
However, that being said, my cleric is sceptical about how far that "atheism" is really carried out -- every time I see a corpse dragged into the guild, it has favors... at least for the most part.
I don't really see my character fitting neatly into any of the 4 groups you type-cast: I'd suppose somewhat of a mixture of #1 & #4: he's a Damaris cleric and has open ties to known thieves....but just as Damaris, has the care of the young in mind, and will fight against the undead, etc.
He didn't go along with the "crusade" led by Tallis against the DragonPriests mainly because of he knows the limits of his own strength - however, if Tallis had led one against the Gorbesh, he woulda been gung-ho into the fray...he still is haunted by the destruction of the first crossing Temple.
However, that being said, my cleric is sceptical about how far that "atheism" is really carried out -- every time I see a corpse dragged into the guild, it has favors... at least for the most part.
I don't really see my character fitting neatly into any of the 4 groups you type-cast: I'd suppose somewhat of a mixture of #1 & #4: he's a Damaris cleric and has open ties to known thieves....but just as Damaris, has the care of the young in mind, and will fight against the undead, etc.
He didn't go along with the "crusade" led by Tallis against the DragonPriests mainly because of he knows the limits of his own strength - however, if Tallis had led one against the Gorbesh, he woulda been gung-ho into the fray...he still is haunted by the destruction of the first crossing Temple.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 01:24 PM CST
>>On top of that, we've constructed a Cleric versus Moon Mage development, with an amusingly high (I mean like... ten, maybe) moon mages declaring atheism of one brand or another in a world where such a belief really ought to be a form of insanity.
Properly, Moon Mages aren't as inclined to atheism as anyone. Caelumia was noteworthy for pointing out on the forums that, yes, it is a kind of madness. However, there is still meant to be a tension there. I do mean them to step on each other's toes a little socially and express wildly different ideas of how the greater universe is constructed.
The extreme Moon Mage stance would be that certainly the gods exist. They're just...not all that important, really.
>>It's just a pity it had to end when Srithin used undead, but it seems the guild's (or maybe just the gods') position on undead has been clarified somewhat to allow the use of noncorporeal undead.
There's been some confusion about this, but here's the stance we're currently taking.
The gods do not, unqualifiably, "hate the undead." We have gods that make active use of the undead (hi2u Asketi). If the gods want to curse a soul to forever be denied their final reward, that's their business and who are we to judge?
The gods hate people creating the undead. The more Cleric-friendly stance is that the Necromancers use genuine, Maelshyve-style evil to do the deed, a power from another realm that is antithetical to the continued spiritual and physical survival of life on the Plane of Abiding.
The more Necromancer-friendly stance is that the Necromancers are Promethean figures, who have dared to steal an arbitrary "divine providence" and taken it as the right of mankind.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
Properly, Moon Mages aren't as inclined to atheism as anyone. Caelumia was noteworthy for pointing out on the forums that, yes, it is a kind of madness. However, there is still meant to be a tension there. I do mean them to step on each other's toes a little socially and express wildly different ideas of how the greater universe is constructed.
The extreme Moon Mage stance would be that certainly the gods exist. They're just...not all that important, really.
>>It's just a pity it had to end when Srithin used undead, but it seems the guild's (or maybe just the gods') position on undead has been clarified somewhat to allow the use of noncorporeal undead.
There's been some confusion about this, but here's the stance we're currently taking.
The gods do not, unqualifiably, "hate the undead." We have gods that make active use of the undead (hi2u Asketi). If the gods want to curse a soul to forever be denied their final reward, that's their business and who are we to judge?
The gods hate people creating the undead. The more Cleric-friendly stance is that the Necromancers use genuine, Maelshyve-style evil to do the deed, a power from another realm that is antithetical to the continued spiritual and physical survival of life on the Plane of Abiding.
The more Necromancer-friendly stance is that the Necromancers are Promethean figures, who have dared to steal an arbitrary "divine providence" and taken it as the right of mankind.
-Armifer
"...everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms-- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
-Viktor Frankl
TELGER
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 01:55 PM CST
>>The gods do not, unqualifiably, "hate the undead." We have gods that make active use of the undead (hi2u Asketi). If the gods want to curse a soul to forever be denied their final reward, that's their business and who are we to judge?
Interesting. I had thought that pretty much all of the dark gods' minions were considered cursed rather than undead. I guess it's tough for us to tell since they both seem to have cursed souls when appraising and both have the same end result for our spells' purposes, but thanks for clarifying the stance.
So in your opinion would it be possible for a cleric who worships the dark gods/gods who make use of the undead to also be committed to the undead's eradication? For example, is an Asketian going to be hunting the creatures around Asketi's Mount?
~Thilan
Interesting. I had thought that pretty much all of the dark gods' minions were considered cursed rather than undead. I guess it's tough for us to tell since they both seem to have cursed souls when appraising and both have the same end result for our spells' purposes, but thanks for clarifying the stance.
So in your opinion would it be possible for a cleric who worships the dark gods/gods who make use of the undead to also be committed to the undead's eradication? For example, is an Asketian going to be hunting the creatures around Asketi's Mount?
~Thilan
DEVAN
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 05:33 PM CST
>>Devan- of course my initial reaction is to reject this out of hand...but thinking about it more, you do bring an interesting challenge to players of clerics. Yes, I don't see Flavius as fitting in with any of your stereotypes completely, I see the value in identifying your characters inclinations and thinking about how your character would act accordingly.
Well, I didn't say it on the first round, but the real challenge isn't fitting the character to stereotypes, but asking how you would react to epitomes of the other stereotypes.
Diarik, for instance, is utterly #3. He understands, discourages, and denounces heresy and necromancy, and even makes some effort towards fighting them (when Veyne showed up, for instance, he was struggling to get people to determine whether the Xala'shar were undead, and then to search the area for a lair), but he doesn't really care.
Faced with someone who represents Faction #1 or #4, he'd probably wonder why people are so hell-bent on destruction. Specifically to #1, he'd be more likely to wonder about a Necromancer's capacity for rehabilitation than how best to turn him into a pyre; destruction for its own sake doesn't make sense to him, especially when their knowledge could help him on his lifequest.
Faced with someone from Faction #2, his first response would probably be a caustic remark on what great progress we've made, followed by an argument on pragmatism, an ad misericordiam on the fact that these religions came with refugees, and an appeal to emotion that they've unquestionably done us some good. If pressed, he'd probably follow that up with a pointer to the mindless arrogance implied by the supposed complete knowledge we have of a supposedly incomprehensible set of beings.
And he'd be wrong, or at least, he wouldn't be right. He'd merely be convincing, at best, and a dismissable windbag at worst.
>>But thinking about some of my favorite players, I think you left out a faction that is less of a faction than a subgroup- the Deist- the cleric who focuses their role based on their perception of a chosen god- my favorite of these was Cadderly with Phelim. Of your 4 factions, he would have been most closely aligned with #1, but in reality he cared less about those than being an arm for Phelim.
I left out certain types of clerics on purpose, because their position seemed to have a harder time relating to the guild as a whole. Clerics like Cadderly would not be, as you say, interested in guild politics. And that's fine. My Moon Mage is utterly disinterested in the fight between Taramaine and Karosti: his interest is in physical and mental perfection and expressing it with simplicity.
If you asked him what his position in guild politics was, he'd sip his tea and ask if it really mattered.
Because the big problem is that people don't care about the guild as a political entity. It's a non-thing. It's not there. The guild, for people, is that place you go where you die, or where you hang out when scripting or looking for a class. That needs to change.
It needs to change for the Cleric guild, and it needs to change for virtually every guild we have. But the Cleric guild is ripe for this. It has been for a long time.
>>I understand how this could lead to high drama. I actually enjoyed the bit with Luceano because his extremism was a welcome opportunity for Flavius to defend the 'true' gods.
Heresy of this brand is... interesting. Terra and I brought it up tangentially over in Lore -> Scholarship. It's a good thing to happen: it certainly provides variety, and in Luceano and Mvorn's case, what I'm about to say doesn't apply. But you need to know the rules before you may break them.
But as you say, it provides the exact opportunity for someone like Flavius to play his hand. It's the exact kind of antagonism that people say is requisite for proper heroics.
>>my cleric is #4 with elements of 1 & 2
>>Flavius is closest to #2, with a little bit of #1 and #3 thrown in
>>I'd suppose somewhat of a mixture of #1 & #4
You guys really don't understand what a stereotype, do you? =P The point isn't that your character doesn't fit: they're not supposed to fit. Your character, with any remote development, is going to be a square peg being jammed into a round hole.
Fail. Intentionally and spectacularly. You're a 1 AND a 4? Okay, have your character hypothetically meet a 4 who thinks you're a 1. And then have them meet a 1 who thinks you're a 4. How do they deal with that?
You're mainly 3 with bits of 2 and 4? Then meet someone who's a hardcore 4 who excoriates you for selling out and doing what the guild wants you to do, rather than ganging your own gait. Meet a 3 who asks why you bother with something as base and crude as political bickering about "unity". Meet a 2 who demands to know why you ask questions before burning heathens at the stake. What do you say to that?
>>So in your opinion would it be possible for a cleric who worships the dark gods/gods who make use of the undead to also be committed to the undead's eradication? For example, is an Asketian going to be hunting the creatures around Asketi's Mount?
That would rock. Controlling noncorp undead makes utter sense. Or building a theory for the basis that differentiates noncorp and corp and then letting clerics get a sorcery built from the basis that favors noncorp and leave the corp to the necros.
But we've been over this and no GM has even acknowledged it, to my knowledge, beyond Armifer saying he's not against it.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
Well, I didn't say it on the first round, but the real challenge isn't fitting the character to stereotypes, but asking how you would react to epitomes of the other stereotypes.
Diarik, for instance, is utterly #3. He understands, discourages, and denounces heresy and necromancy, and even makes some effort towards fighting them (when Veyne showed up, for instance, he was struggling to get people to determine whether the Xala'shar were undead, and then to search the area for a lair), but he doesn't really care.
Faced with someone who represents Faction #1 or #4, he'd probably wonder why people are so hell-bent on destruction. Specifically to #1, he'd be more likely to wonder about a Necromancer's capacity for rehabilitation than how best to turn him into a pyre; destruction for its own sake doesn't make sense to him, especially when their knowledge could help him on his lifequest.
Faced with someone from Faction #2, his first response would probably be a caustic remark on what great progress we've made, followed by an argument on pragmatism, an ad misericordiam on the fact that these religions came with refugees, and an appeal to emotion that they've unquestionably done us some good. If pressed, he'd probably follow that up with a pointer to the mindless arrogance implied by the supposed complete knowledge we have of a supposedly incomprehensible set of beings.
And he'd be wrong, or at least, he wouldn't be right. He'd merely be convincing, at best, and a dismissable windbag at worst.
>>But thinking about some of my favorite players, I think you left out a faction that is less of a faction than a subgroup- the Deist- the cleric who focuses their role based on their perception of a chosen god- my favorite of these was Cadderly with Phelim. Of your 4 factions, he would have been most closely aligned with #1, but in reality he cared less about those than being an arm for Phelim.
I left out certain types of clerics on purpose, because their position seemed to have a harder time relating to the guild as a whole. Clerics like Cadderly would not be, as you say, interested in guild politics. And that's fine. My Moon Mage is utterly disinterested in the fight between Taramaine and Karosti: his interest is in physical and mental perfection and expressing it with simplicity.
If you asked him what his position in guild politics was, he'd sip his tea and ask if it really mattered.
Because the big problem is that people don't care about the guild as a political entity. It's a non-thing. It's not there. The guild, for people, is that place you go where you die, or where you hang out when scripting or looking for a class. That needs to change.
It needs to change for the Cleric guild, and it needs to change for virtually every guild we have. But the Cleric guild is ripe for this. It has been for a long time.
>>I understand how this could lead to high drama. I actually enjoyed the bit with Luceano because his extremism was a welcome opportunity for Flavius to defend the 'true' gods.
Heresy of this brand is... interesting. Terra and I brought it up tangentially over in Lore -> Scholarship. It's a good thing to happen: it certainly provides variety, and in Luceano and Mvorn's case, what I'm about to say doesn't apply. But you need to know the rules before you may break them.
But as you say, it provides the exact opportunity for someone like Flavius to play his hand. It's the exact kind of antagonism that people say is requisite for proper heroics.
>>my cleric is #4 with elements of 1 & 2
>>Flavius is closest to #2, with a little bit of #1 and #3 thrown in
>>I'd suppose somewhat of a mixture of #1 & #4
You guys really don't understand what a stereotype, do you? =P The point isn't that your character doesn't fit: they're not supposed to fit. Your character, with any remote development, is going to be a square peg being jammed into a round hole.
Fail. Intentionally and spectacularly. You're a 1 AND a 4? Okay, have your character hypothetically meet a 4 who thinks you're a 1. And then have them meet a 1 who thinks you're a 4. How do they deal with that?
You're mainly 3 with bits of 2 and 4? Then meet someone who's a hardcore 4 who excoriates you for selling out and doing what the guild wants you to do, rather than ganging your own gait. Meet a 3 who asks why you bother with something as base and crude as political bickering about "unity". Meet a 2 who demands to know why you ask questions before burning heathens at the stake. What do you say to that?
>>So in your opinion would it be possible for a cleric who worships the dark gods/gods who make use of the undead to also be committed to the undead's eradication? For example, is an Asketian going to be hunting the creatures around Asketi's Mount?
That would rock. Controlling noncorp undead makes utter sense. Or building a theory for the basis that differentiates noncorp and corp and then letting clerics get a sorcery built from the basis that favors noncorp and leave the corp to the necros.
But we've been over this and no GM has even acknowledged it, to my knowledge, beyond Armifer saying he's not against it.
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
NJP
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 05:58 PM CST
This is a bit of a non sequitur to the discussion at hand, but the discussion has raised a point of curiosity for me.
What are folks' (particularly clerics and their players) opinions about non-clerics entering into the spiritual leadership role? I ask because, this being a class-based game/world, there's a sort of tendency among my own characters to give a certain degree of deference to cleric guild members when they wax preachy, versus someone of a different guild attempting to do the same.
Speaking personally as a player, I don't have a problem with cults being formed or led by non-clerics, but I'm curious about whether that opinion is in a relative minority or majority.
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
What are folks' (particularly clerics and their players) opinions about non-clerics entering into the spiritual leadership role? I ask because, this being a class-based game/world, there's a sort of tendency among my own characters to give a certain degree of deference to cleric guild members when they wax preachy, versus someone of a different guild attempting to do the same.
Speaking personally as a player, I don't have a problem with cults being formed or led by non-clerics, but I'm curious about whether that opinion is in a relative minority or majority.
Denstimar Dustyfoot
Idon Raider - www.idonraiders.com
"It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo because the status is not quo." - Dr. Horrible
ALDEN
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 06:50 PM CST
Oh and Devan- I like where you are going with this.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
ALDEN
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 06:52 PM CST
As a player, I have no problem with non-clerics preaching about the gods. Flavius would only take umbrage in the case of someone like Luceano making claims that he felt were patently false about the gods, and supporting actions. In general more folks discussing the gods is good.
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
"militantly enforcing the overly rigid standards of you and your small collection of friends"
MACCABEE1
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/26/2009 06:57 PM CST
when my cleric steals, my thief considers him to be an amateur.
If my thief were to preach about Damaris, my cleric would consider my thief to be an amateur.
In both instances they aren't against the deed in question, they just question the quality of its performance.
If my thief were to preach about Damaris, my cleric would consider my thief to be an amateur.
In both instances they aren't against the deed in question, they just question the quality of its performance.
ENOTS
None-clerical preachers (was Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments)
01/26/2009 08:11 PM CST
>>What are folks' (particularly clerics and their players) opinions about non-clerics entering into the spiritual leadership role? I ask because, this being a class-based game/world, there's a sort of tendency among my own characters to give a certain degree of deference to cleric guild members when they wax preachy, versus someone of a different guild attempting to do the same.
For the most part, Ryeka's actually pretty much neutral. She has seen a few barbarians for instance who were actually very spiritual people. And a few clerics who've pretty solidly shown that they don't know what they're talking about. Just make sure your doctrine is actually sound if you want to preach to her: Some months ago, a guy tried to push a bunch of tripe onto her and a friend, and she took her friend where this guy couldn't follow.
Player of...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
For the most part, Ryeka's actually pretty much neutral. She has seen a few barbarians for instance who were actually very spiritual people. And a few clerics who've pretty solidly shown that they don't know what they're talking about. Just make sure your doctrine is actually sound if you want to preach to her: Some months ago, a guy tried to push a bunch of tripe onto her and a friend, and she took her friend where this guy couldn't follow.
Player of...
Sometimes the key to happiness is not assuming it is locked in the first place- Ziggy
A journey of a thousand SMILES begins with a single step- Ziggy
DEVAN
Re: None-clerical preachers (was Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments)
01/26/2009 08:33 PM CST
I'd enjoy it if non-clerics took up spiritual leadership. Clerics sure aren't. =P
>>In general more folks discussing the gods is good.
I'd suggest looking into the gray areas of lore. Stuff that hasn't been explicitly declared anywhere, or is interpretable. Stake a claim on the truth or falsity about something (protip: claiming truth is easier to preach than claiming something is false) and tell everyone it's true.
Make sure it's not directly connected to any mechanics (or make sure those mechanics are obscure enough that 99% of the people you talk to aren't going to have heard about it). That eliminates verifiability.
Add some charisma (the real kind, not that dinky numerical garbage), a bit of leadership savvy and presto! Instant cult.
Good luck? =P
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
>>In general more folks discussing the gods is good.
I'd suggest looking into the gray areas of lore. Stuff that hasn't been explicitly declared anywhere, or is interpretable. Stake a claim on the truth or falsity about something (protip: claiming truth is easier to preach than claiming something is false) and tell everyone it's true.
Make sure it's not directly connected to any mechanics (or make sure those mechanics are obscure enough that 99% of the people you talk to aren't going to have heard about it). That eliminates verifiability.
Add some charisma (the real kind, not that dinky numerical garbage), a bit of leadership savvy and presto! Instant cult.
Good luck? =P
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
TERRA
Re: None-clerical preachers (was Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments)
01/26/2009 08:51 PM CST
I'm going to be starting something like this, seek me out in game for more info
~ Terra
~ Terra
LOFTONM1
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/28/2009 07:20 PM CST
>>What are folks' (particularly clerics and their players) opinions about non-clerics entering into the spiritual leadership role?
Barring special dispensation (possession, The Chosen One, whatever) by the true master(s), as long as they recognize they are still at the kiddie table I have no problems with them taking on a leadership role. The ideal situation for us as clerics is that so many people take heed of our message that we just physically cannot attend to our duties to everyone and so will need help.
Not everything we're supposed to be doing as leaders of the flock necessarily involves invocation of our special connection to the gods. Sometimes it's stuff that just anyone can do.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
Barring special dispensation (possession, The Chosen One, whatever) by the true master(s), as long as they recognize they are still at the kiddie table I have no problems with them taking on a leadership role. The ideal situation for us as clerics is that so many people take heed of our message that we just physically cannot attend to our duties to everyone and so will need help.
Not everything we're supposed to be doing as leaders of the flock necessarily involves invocation of our special connection to the gods. Sometimes it's stuff that just anyone can do.
DISCLAIMER: THIS POSTER IS NOT A MEMBER OF STAFF AND HIS INFORMATION IS/MIGHT BE WRONG.
DEVAN
Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments
01/28/2009 08:04 PM CST
>>Barring special dispensation (possession, The Chosen One, whatever) by the true master(s), as long as they recognize they are still at the kiddie table I have no problems with them taking on a leadership role. The ideal situation for us as clerics is that so many people take heed of our message that we just physically cannot attend to our duties to everyone and so will need help.
>>Not everything we're supposed to be doing as leaders of the flock necessarily involves invocation of our special connection to the gods. Sometimes it's stuff that just anyone can do.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik/Proposal_for_Worship
<whistles>
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
>>Not everything we're supposed to be doing as leaders of the flock necessarily involves invocation of our special connection to the gods. Sometimes it's stuff that just anyone can do.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik/Proposal_for_Worship
<whistles>
---
"Close your eyes -
For your eyes will only tell the truth..
And the truth isn't what you want to see.
In the dark, it is easy to pretend
That the truth is what it ought to be." - Erik Claudin
GAUDIOR73
Re: None-clerical preachers (was Re: Anti-Guild Sentiments)
02/28/2009 09:46 AM CST
A little (ok, a LOT) late, but I wanted to comment on this.
>I'd enjoy it if non-clerics took up spiritual leadership. Clerics sure aren't. =P
There is nothing wrong with non-clerics preaching in the name of the god(s) as long as they aren't spreading mis-information.
I have always tried my hardest to be a spiritual leader, so much so that I was asked by Alexii on numerous occasions to become high priestess of his pack.
Unfortunately my time in DR is coming close to an end. However, I hope in some small way the time I have spent trying to be a spiritual leader to all Rakash I have come across in my years of playing have touched the hearts and souls of the Rakash peoples as a whole. If I have done my clerical job correctly, I have indoctrinated at least a handful of people in the ways of the East.
May Enelne bless and keep you, today and always!
Bambina
>I'd enjoy it if non-clerics took up spiritual leadership. Clerics sure aren't. =P
There is nothing wrong with non-clerics preaching in the name of the god(s) as long as they aren't spreading mis-information.
I have always tried my hardest to be a spiritual leader, so much so that I was asked by Alexii on numerous occasions to become high priestess of his pack.
Unfortunately my time in DR is coming close to an end. However, I hope in some small way the time I have spent trying to be a spiritual leader to all Rakash I have come across in my years of playing have touched the hearts and souls of the Rakash peoples as a whole. If I have done my clerical job correctly, I have indoctrinated at least a handful of people in the ways of the East.
May Enelne bless and keep you, today and always!
Bambina
