I'm very interested in seeing this thread develop.

I personally have always seen the standard and guild accepted religion as the 13 and their aspects. However it has irked me that we have written documentation of other religions yet not mechanics for players to potentially RP being a part of those religions. Thats part of my goal and vision to open up those other religions in one form or fashion to allow more diversity in the RP environment.

I won't interject too much as I really do want others opinions.


GM Lirrak
Cleric Liaison

Actually all you've got is "the standard religion as dictated by in game mechanics," becuase of the favor system. From an IG perspective there's no debate as to the existence and impact of the 13, which leaves little room to consider any other possiblities.


-/\/\
Moon mage Daellid

I would say the 13/39 as gods is the standard.

From there, the non-13 gods and World dragon worshippers (RP as DP) would be next most 'common'.

I meat about as many people really playing that the 13 are 'mages' or whatever not gods as I do DP I'd say.

There's the all-father (schitzophrenic god) theory.

I'd say roughly 95% of the population is straight no-thought 13-est. 8% favors the non-13 gods, and the remainder is just craz..er, unique.

Currently, mechanics force at least lip-service devotion to the 13, and no matter your RP you can't 'really' believe in the others strongly enough to not die.

>>1) Mo..as in one of the Barbarian guild leaders? (honest confusion)

Sorry, the Togger's one of my favorite guild leaders. Though I believe him worthy of worship, I meant Mrod.

>>2) How are you defining 'standard' favor system? I believe by and large, you can find a favor for most (all?) aspects now; it might be hard to find, and even more difficult to figure out what to offer, but I think that is fair, and good. Pilgrimage if you will.

e.g. Crossing favor. This system I am dubbing 'standard' only allows representation by the 13 neutral aspects.

I enjoy the fact that favors are available for many of the light/dark aspects. However, in the way I am picturing the deity-alignment system (as in choosing one deity) making a pilgrimage every time I needed fresh favors would really be a pain in the arse.

For clarification let me outline what I consider to be near the "ideal favor" system that includes support for Clerics (or anyone) to choose a primary god and somehow mechanically make it official.

A) Crossing-style favor system opened to all aspects, both light and dark and neutral, once certain conditions are met.

B) Mechanics are developed to allow anyone, Clerics especially, to choose a primary God. The pilgrimage comes in here. In order to declare my God, I have to visit their specific shrine (as in example, for Kuniyo I'd have to go up near blood wolves in Theren), perhaps given a mini-quest to visit a couple other altars like the Eyes of the Thirteen in Crossing and then the Light Aspect shrine in Shard. Afterwards, Kuniyo becomes my 'official' God, and I can now restock on Kuniyo favors a la Crossing-style at any primary altar.

C) Small benefits added for roleplaying a devout follower of one God. Off the top of my head, new colors or designs for SOL, Halo, Bless, HE, HH like the WM pattern hues cantrip, only deity-based.

---

System Announcement: As our gift to you, the players, items deposited in a trash receptacle will be placed into a random player's inventory. Please do not assist to thank us if you are suddenly overburdened with 400 globs of blocil pulp.

World Dragon" (just for Gonif) are all examples of "non-standard".

I would like to state for the record that that only applies to my s'kra cleric in TF.
My dwarven cleric in prime is a loyal follower of Damaris. :-)



"Word on the street is, ya been lookin' out for the best interests of the Guild."

>>Actually all you've got is "the standard religion as dictated by in game mechanics," becuase of the favor system.

The favor system is more an indicator of what gods actually exist than a mainstream religion. Let me explain:

Let's say that you can only get favors from one god. In fact, favors don't have the names of deities attached to them; they're just favors.

What does this say about the mainstream religion? Absolutely nothing. It does not mean I can't worship the World Dragon. It does not mean that everyone worships the World Dragon. They could. They'd just likely be wrong, because they're not getting Dragon favors.

Further, adventurers are not the mainstream. Despite what everyone thinks, the average person does not buy sword, pack, and shield and go goblin hunting. Not even Thief contacts can be considered average people; those who work in or with organizations like guilds are already above average, in my opinion. It's the faceless scenery, the crowds that you read about in the room descriptions, who are truly average, who make up the vast majority of the Elanthian population.

And so I ask you: What do they believe in?

>>I'd say roughly 95% of the population is straight no-thought 13-est. 8% favors the non-13 gods, and the remainder is just craz..er, unique.

Any particular reason why? (Also, I love how there's a "remainder" out of roughly 103%. =P)

>>Currently, mechanics force at least lip-service devotion to the 13, and no matter your RP you can't 'really' believe in the others strongly enough to not die.

I very much hope to see that change. Insofar as I recall, every piece of the death-related messaging, minus the Resurrection messaging, is religion-neutral. The Starry Road is fairly indisputed (stars in the sky), and the "Starry Host" is non-indicative of what the host actually consists of. So there'd be no need for Lirrak to go and mess around with that (though I think it'd be cool if he did; it'd be one grandiose stroke seen by the entire population (after we kill them)).

>>I would like to state for the record that that only applies to my s'kra cleric in TF.

You were the only one I noticed ask for it. =D Dragonlover.


-- Holy Scholar Diarik Erasto, Arcane Researcher, in search of spiritweaving.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pensive-spirit/

Holiness of soul lies within integrity. - Book of Eluned, Magica Bona

I believe Maelshyve counts as a "non-standard religious sect" as well, considering she has worshippers, an army, and there was a whole church erected over her abyssal prison.

>> From an IG perspective there's no debate as to the existence and impact of the 13, which leaves little room to consider any other possiblities.

I have argued against this in the past. :)

The biggest proof anyone points at outside of direct Clericdom is the existence of favors. But it could easily be claimed that favors and resurrection aren't divine intervention at all - in fact, calling them favors is a misnomer period, simply based on what's happened in-game.

Look at it this way. If a 'favor' did no more than represent the actual favor of a god that you earned, a favor that you could trade in return for a new lease on life, would certain poisons be able to drain them from someone and prevent their resurrection? If it was truly divine, would the gods not be able to intervene and stop someone's death regardless of what mortals did to prevent it? The fact that it's also possible to magically transfer favors and that sort of thing also support this point to an extent.

To this end I would posit that favors are not the 'favor' of a god at all, but are physical and perhaps magical enchantments which leave traces on someone's spirit. They act as a magical anchor between the flesh, the spirit, and the soul, and work to put them back together and plop them down at the nearest place that has been enchanted to work with favors i.e. altars. You'll also notice that in many areas this is not restricted to the altars of the thirteen - in Ilithi, for example, it's possible to depart to an altar to the World Dragon.

A worshipper of the thirteen could accept this about favors as being true and still say that favors are divinely inspired or that favor altars and whatnot themselves aren't possible without the divine touch of the gods. A skeptic (like my main character) could say that these things really aren't necessary, but are observed out of superstition, tradition or even genuine belief that the gods are necessary to perform a genuine resurrection of the body, spirit, and soul.

Even accepting the latter point doesn't mean that the thirteen can't exist - it just means that some might cast doubt on whether or not the immortals are 'truly' divine and 'worthy' of worship or simply very powerful beings with a god complex.

---

Rev. Reene

"Who provides the opportunity to cultivate patience? Not our friends. Our enemies give us the most crucial chances to grow."
- Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

>> That's an interesting theory, but I wouldn't tend to agree based on the fact that the only ones who can 'transfer' favors are Clerics.

Paladins have a spell for it.

---

Rev. Reene

"Who provides the opportunity to cultivate patience? Not our friends. Our enemies give us the most crucial chances to grow."
- Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

>>That's an interesting theory, but I wouldn't tend to agree based on the fact that the only ones who can 'transfer' favors are Clerics.

Actually, my first thought was Paladins. The spell is Alamhif's Gift, IIRC. It's supposedly easier to cast if you have clerics joined with you. I've never seen it in action, personally, nor do I know anyone who has it.


-- Holy Scholar Diarik Erasto, Arcane Researcher, in search of spiritweaving.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pensive-spirit/

Holiness of soul lies within integrity. - Book of Eluned, Magica Bona

That's what I get for responding slow. Geez.


-- Holy Scholar Diarik Erasto, Arcane Researcher, in search of spiritweaving.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pensive-spirit/

Holiness of soul lies within integrity. - Book of Eluned, Magica Bona

>I personally have always seen the standard and guild accepted religion as the 13 and their aspects. However it has irked me that we have written documentation of other religions yet not mechanics for players to potentially RP being a part of those religions.

Huh? I have no problems RPing outside of the generally accepted "13 religion". In fact, I revel in being able to take artistic license with it.


Bambina

it used to be significantly easier to RP this when a certain favor-granting altar on aesry wasn't attached to any of the 39. now that altar is attached to murrala <or however you spell it>, so that can't be rp'ed out any more. there used to be a tog that got favors there that claimed that altar to belong to the one true god of elanthea that created the togs <as none of the 13 were designated as the tog-god>, he had a whole system thought out on it.


"Word on the street is, ya been lookin' out for the best interests of the Guild."

>> Which is why the 'favors are part of a system of complex enchantments designed to keep the soul magically anchored to the body and aren't divine at all' explanation is helpful. ;)

It is, and I like it! Don't get me wrong on that. It's just going to be tough to explain to those that can't get their mind wrapped around the idea.


-/\/\
Moon mage Daellid

It doesn't really matter who's right: the very fact that there's a disagreement, a second perspective, is already a good thing. As long as you can't shoot down one perspective, I want it around even if I think it's stupid, even anti-Clerical.

I think a lot of players would like that notion, though. It'd be worth spreading around, if only to give us a good reason to burn them for being sacrilegious, or however you spell it.


-- Holy Scholar Diarik Erasto, Arcane Researcher, in search of spiritweaving.
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/User:Diarik
http://www.livejournal.com/users/pensive-spirit/

Holiness of soul lies within integrity. - Book of Eluned, Magica Bona

>>I'm surprised more Clerics aren't inclined to do this to my character to be honest.

I can just punch you while sparring.

In all seriousness, I appreciate the people willing to put forth the effort to roleplay alternative religious beliefs simply because it takes more thought than going along with the standard 39 bit.


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
<Conskill> You're like an Empath, but with a drug dependancy.

Working on it. And have been for the past five hours.

It's a doozy.

---

Rev. Reene

Ring the bells that can still ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.

-- Leonard Cohen

<<I can guarantee right now that at no point did Tallis or anyone associated with the guild make any statement that clerics would be hanged for practicing the non-standard religion. Nor in fact did she EVER make any mention that any action of any kind would be taken against those not following the standard or recognized religion.

Actually, Tallis did say just that. But when she said it, I am pretty sure she was being sarcastic and not actually endorsing it.

Or a Bard had lots of fun and no one noticed.

>>edited because I can't spell.

Reene,

Can you also forward a copy to my play.net address if you get a chance? Cael recently heard about this conversation and it was quite shocking to her. She's currently seeking out other members of the guild who can confirm and clarify the conversation.

Thanks


-Player of "One of the Caels" and a Bard

Bromus asks Kobmand, "Hey, so I got a few plats on me now, you think ya can set me up with some samatak-addicted sheep like ya said last time?"

<<When would the guild take issue against another religion? When that group becomes violent, i.e. the Dragon Priests. >>

sometimes not even then....

my dragonpriestess has absolutely no problem praising the world dragon at any of the standard altars, and of course at the altar of the world dragon in Muspar'I.

<chirr>






<<If nothing else, maybe some Magic Using guilds will now feel the joys of "You cannot steal here.", at least for a while.--Solomon>>

Phyneas asks Tallis, "How will prevention of worship be accomplished?"

Fintrial softly says, "I have a guild accepted god. But the limitation to

who we should worship within these walls is nonsense."

Tallis says, "We will hunt you down and hang you up infront of the guild for

all to see."

Tallis chuckles.

Kloegar says, "Dunno how one could worship the Western Gods and be a cleric

to pray, quest, and worship the 13 at the same time."

Phyneas nods.

While the chuckle afterwards makes me think it was meant as a joke - I can see how some people's characters wouldn't have taken it as such.

___________________________
What happens in Elanthia, stays in Elanthia*
*...unless you accidentally gweth something really naughty, in which case it will be posted and archived on unofficial websites forever and ever.