As I'm writing antinomic corruption, one of my goals is to not hamper Theurgy learning.
I notice Theurgy brought up somewhat often as a frustrating skill to train. Is it because of the timers, difficulties with gaining devotion, or the experience awards themselves? I may not be able to prioritize Theurgy touch-ups very high right now, but I can try and avoid exacerbating its issues within new systems.
GM Grejuva
DR-GREJUVA
TOTLIIO
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 07:10 PM CST
>> As I'm writing antinomic corruption, one of my goals is to not hamper Theurgy learning.
>>I notice Theurgy brought up somewhat often as a frustrating skill to train. Is it because of the timers, difficulties with gaining devotion, or the experience awards themselves? I may not be able to prioritize Theurgy touch-ups very high right now, but I can try and avoid exacerbating its issues within new systems.
I can tell you that I simply stopped training Theurgy its such a pain to train. My cleric is in the 150's and every other skill has him in the 170's except for Theurgy as its gotten frustrating to train. Really at higher levels it only moves with meraud (or eluned with dirt, which cant be foraged in some hunting areas which is a pain). The problem with this is a few things...
Eluned really doesnt teach that well. Its ok, but not that great. Just a small bump in learning.
Meraud teaches great. What is annoying is that It's on a long recast to learn again from it. Whats even more annoying is that frequently even when the timer is up, the first Meraud commune in your room hasnt expired. This means you now have to start searching for other rooms to commune Meraud. If you are hunting, this means you are running around messing with the mana of other rooms (usually for the better, but sometimes for the worse in the case of a necro, and even though we are mortal enemies I dont want to go around ruining peoples hunting experience).
I assume you are referring to the thread about the bead carving teaching Theurgy and I know from talking to a few other cleric friends they are excited as well. I think the timers are what really kills it (and it would be great if meraud commune could just be overwritten if you try to consecrate the area again with another commune instead of getting the message that its already consecrated). I mean, Communes are already gated behind devotion so its not as if you can spam the communes for learning, why have a timer behind it as well? it just seems overly punishing. Thats why I personally am very happy with the proposed solution for bead carving.
I hope that offers some perspective from one cleric!
Thanks.
SLEE1
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 07:45 PM CST
Think my two biggest qualms with theurgy training is A) Constant upkeep of reagents and B) Just training it for training's sake.
To do all communes it requires: holy water, holy oil, incense, flint/lighter, dirt, jalbreth balm, fish guts (for balm), dracon powder, stick, jar, rose petals, rue, rose, and applicable offering aka beads, primers, or similar.
And for all devotional rites: Wine, beads, incense, holy water, an instrument, skin/hide/part of undead, money for tithing, sirese seed, 2 parts chamomile, sage, or lavender, lanahh pao, dream candle, tarts, ebon jackal's heart pearl, blood, anloral pin, and prayer badge.
Granted you don't need all these things. Biggest culprits would be water, incense and beads (for me) due to the majority of theurgy training being done with Meraud and Truffenyi.
This is taken from the aspect of training in combat since I hardly ever train it while not hunting.
Devotional side I don't have a problem. Between last rites, praying, reciting, and prayer badge/anloral pin usage its not hard to keep the same level (or gain) of devotion while hunting. Unless I accidentally soul attrition something I shouldn't or killed somebody on holy ground I've never dropped down below 10/16 devotion and usually hover around 12-14.
It is somewhat annoying to train before 20th circle but after that the use of Meraud commune makes it very easy. Only commune you really need to use until you need to supplement it with Truffenyi commune due to the length of the effect of Meraud if you're hunting for a long period of time.
Meraud must be used to do last rites, reciting, and dancing due to needing a consecrated room or a prayer rug of some kind. Though the extra mana is decent I only use this so I can gain devotion to do it again ad nauseam.
Truffenyi is used in conjuction to boost theurgy exp while unable to redo Meraud do to the length of the timer and not moving to a new room. Getting favor orbs on command is a nice perk, though the majority of them usually end up broken on the ground.
TLDR:
Past 20th its not hard to train. Just feels like a bland skill that doesn't give anything in return regardless of how much you have in it.
WILTONQU
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 07:47 PM CST
Clerics kind of get a double dip on timers. there is timers on regaining devotion and rites and then there is timers on communes depending on the commune used. The check on communes is regaining the devotion to power them. Why put another set of timers on them? I am really hoping for bead carving too. It is not as people dependent as teaching used to be but you can still make a few blocks and socialize a bit while actively working Theurgy.
Cadderrly the feeble old swamp shaman
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 07:50 PM CST
I agree that the main issue is that Theurgy training is gated in the first place. If you compare it to Astrology, Thanatology and Trading (the other skills some of my characters train), the problem is very apparent. Astrology is limited only by your ability to fill a prediction pool (which at higher levels is gated only by time). As long as you keep killing and don't want to skin any corpses you can train Thanatology ad nauseaum. Trading is gated behind the number of work orders you can finish, gem pouches you can sell or contracts you can run. Essentially if you want to lock any of those skills you just need to invest the time. Most of the remaining guild skills follow some variation of this model.
Theurgy is different. First, you need to build up a devotion pool using rituals that have a cool down. My 70th cleric probably couldn't fill his devotion pool even if he completed every ritual available (unless dark incense is really good; I haven't figured out how to make it yet). At that point you haven't learned much Theurgy (or any at higher levels) and need to use a commune, which drains your limited pool. The communes that work well at my clerics level (Meraud and Truffenyi) drain quite a bit of devotion and have a long cool down.
I think the solution is more than just removing cool downs on communes because I think we will probably still be gated by devotion as well.
Theurgy is different. First, you need to build up a devotion pool using rituals that have a cool down. My 70th cleric probably couldn't fill his devotion pool even if he completed every ritual available (unless dark incense is really good; I haven't figured out how to make it yet). At that point you haven't learned much Theurgy (or any at higher levels) and need to use a commune, which drains your limited pool. The communes that work well at my clerics level (Meraud and Truffenyi) drain quite a bit of devotion and have a long cool down.
I think the solution is more than just removing cool downs on communes because I think we will probably still be gated by devotion as well.
TOTLIIO
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 07:53 PM CST
>>I think the solution is more than just removing cool downs on communes because I think we will probably still be gated by devotion as well.
I Agree, which is why im excited at the prospect of learning from bead carving.
LIURIDR
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 09:30 PM CST
I'd say I pretty well concur with the established points that have been brought up so far in this thread, especially those mentioned by Totilio and Slee. A pox on timers (and reagents!)
(Also yay antinomic corruption and not furthering hindering Theurgy gains!)
SLEE1
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 09:36 PM CST
>Also yay antinomic corruption and not furthering hindering Theurgy gains!
Yes very eager to find out what sort of grey areas of religion we can fiddle with.
SHIFT3
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 09:40 PM CST
Theurgy sucks for four reasons.
- Using the abilities requires juggling material components, some of which aren't available in the places you need to be.
- The abilities have timers on themselves, the objects or rooms they're cast on, and on all thuergy skills.
- In addition to the timers and components, the skills still require a certain devotion level that has to be managed.
- the experience gain is terrible at the upper end, and even then it's tied directly to using the abilities rather than raising devotion.
It's a terribly designed skill. It's like someone asked themselves how many resources could be fed into a learning vehicle to annoy players, and then decided to throw on a few more penalties for the fun of it. I'd be surprised if anyone actually used the abilities for the benefits rather than for the TDPs and circles.
SHIFT3
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 09:45 PM CST
Sorry for the double post, but I'd add a suggestion on fixing this skill.
First, drop the reagents, or at least give them infinite uses. Maybe they last for 30 RL days rather than a few uses.
Move the experience to gaining devotion rather than spending it. Let the abilities be used for their own sake.
Drop the timers either on the ability or the devotion gain. If I want to dance until the gods love me then let me. If that's not an option then let me store up a massive amount of devotion to pour down when I'm ready.
GNICKIA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/22/2016 10:17 PM CST
I'd sure love a way to learn Theurgy decently other than Meraud's Commune.
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 02:43 AM CST
Thanks everyone.
It does look like the common complaint is the experience timer. The original intent behind it was to encourage people to use different communes, rather than to limit experience -- which, as you all note, is done by devotion itself. We can reconsider the timer. That said... I don't know if this was ever communicated, but commune experience is directly proportional to the devotion spent. Regardless of skill level, the Meraud commune isn't more efficient than the others; it's just bigger. If you've been avoiding the other communes so as not to waste experience, you shouldn't!
>>(unless dark incense is really good; I haven't figured out how to make it yet)
It's been long enough that we can disclose this. You hold it in your bleeding hand during the Blood Offering ritual.
>>Yes very eager to find out what sort of grey areas of religion we can fiddle with.
>prep all
You muddle through the incongruity that is the [censored] spell, vaguely alarmed by a hole in the pattern.
GM Grejuva
It does look like the common complaint is the experience timer. The original intent behind it was to encourage people to use different communes, rather than to limit experience -- which, as you all note, is done by devotion itself. We can reconsider the timer. That said... I don't know if this was ever communicated, but commune experience is directly proportional to the devotion spent. Regardless of skill level, the Meraud commune isn't more efficient than the others; it's just bigger. If you've been avoiding the other communes so as not to waste experience, you shouldn't!
>>(unless dark incense is really good; I haven't figured out how to make it yet)
It's been long enough that we can disclose this. You hold it in your bleeding hand during the Blood Offering ritual.
>>Yes very eager to find out what sort of grey areas of religion we can fiddle with.
>prep all
You muddle through the incongruity that is the [censored] spell, vaguely alarmed by a hole in the pattern.
GM Grejuva
GNIKOLEYCHUK
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 02:50 AM CST
>>> It's been long enough that we can disclose this. You hold it in your bleeding hand during the Blood Offering ritual.
Bah. I was so close. I am pretty sure I held it in my right hand with a wounded left hand. Thanks for clarifying that.
Bah. I was so close. I am pretty sure I held it in my right hand with a wounded left hand. Thanks for clarifying that.
ASHBOMB
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 03:06 AM CST
>>It does look like the common complaint is the experience timer. The original intent behind it was to encourage people to use different communes, rather than to limit experience -- which, as you all note, is done by devotion itself. We can reconsider the timer. That said... I don't know if this was ever communicated, but commune experience is directly proportional to the devotion spent. Regardless of skill level, the Meraud commune isn't more efficient than the others; it's just bigger. If you've been avoiding the other communes so as not to waste experience, you shouldn't!
I would disagree, and think the common complaint is the experience method. Build devotion to spend devotion for experience ad nauseum. It's my understanding the shift of game development thought has been to get away from things that feel like work.
If the timer is the only means to change this, then the last rites timer should just go away.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
I would disagree, and think the common complaint is the experience method. Build devotion to spend devotion for experience ad nauseum. It's my understanding the shift of game development thought has been to get away from things that feel like work.
If the timer is the only means to change this, then the last rites timer should just go away.
"Game balance is sobbing over in the corner as it considers the ramifications of AoE Blufmor Garaen. Your spell slots send their condolences." - GM Raesh
SHIFT3
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 07:06 AM CST
> I would disagree, and think the common complaint is the experience method. Build devotion to spend devotion for experience ad nauseum. It's my understanding the shift of game development thought has been to get away from things that feel like work.
I would agree with this. Play any other class and then play a cleric.
- Astrology: limited by constellation view timer and time of day/year (which you can work around, especially with Braun's conjecture).
- Summoning: limited by a 20 second summon admittance.
- Expertise: limited by kill rate, which only requires 3/minute.
- Screams: limited by performance playing, trivial to maintain.
- Beseeches: limited by spirit health (seriously, why didn't clerics get the same resource?)
- Shift: limited by charisma.
- Thanatology, Asceticism: limited by dev time.
- Markets: limited by space.
- Devotion: limited by ritual timers, re-use timers, skill lockout timers, reagents, devotion level, and physical proximity to holy ground.
One of these things isn't like the others. One of these things doesn't belong.
Another idea... can we get a cleric version of Braun's Conjecture/moonblade and read the ripples/words of wisdom? The first allows us to summon any reagent we need. Make it a cantrip and let it use spirit health/devotion, or make it a full spell and let it just be skill based. The second provides a passive devotion gain and pulses to clear out all timers.
LIURIDR
TOTLIIO
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 08:40 AM CST
>>I feel like Shift3 makes an excellent point.
Yes, I can confirm this as well. Id much rather have a constant way to train my theurgy with less mindstates that I Earn per whatever (ritual, commune, carving bead, whatever) than have to deal with all the pitfalls of training Theurgy. Its just not.. fun. I know a lot of skills arent "Fun" to train but this one is particularly taxing.
RY4NPW
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/23/2016 08:50 AM CST
Personally, the commune timers are pretty long. As it stands the best I manage (without hunting) is to keep a trickle of Theurgy coming in, but it is almost never locked.
COMMUNE ELUNED to create holy water.
COMMUNE (Tamsine) immediately to gain a bonus against undead.
wait for the timer and while theurgy drains to about 10/34, then
COMMUNE MERAUD to lock Theurgy
At this point, there's very little you can do to maintain your Theurgy learning. Most of what is left are situational:
*COMMUNE TRUFFENYI to create a favor orb, but the last thing you want to do is dump all your Theurgy you worked to gain into a favor.
*COMMUNE (Kertigen) only needs to be done once to a weapon. I could do it more often, but
*COMMUNE GLYTHTIDE is very situational.
*COMMUNE HODIERNA requires a bleeder, which I was never fond of injuring myself intentionally.
*COMMUNE (Eluned 2) boosts athletics. Admittedly I don't do this as much because of the need to create Jalbreth balm. Speaking of which, we may need changes to the preparation of Jalbreth balm with Mechanical Lore going away.
COMMUNE ELUNED to create holy water.
COMMUNE (Tamsine) immediately to gain a bonus against undead.
wait for the timer and while theurgy drains to about 10/34, then
COMMUNE MERAUD to lock Theurgy
At this point, there's very little you can do to maintain your Theurgy learning. Most of what is left are situational:
*COMMUNE TRUFFENYI to create a favor orb, but the last thing you want to do is dump all your Theurgy you worked to gain into a favor.
*COMMUNE (Kertigen) only needs to be done once to a weapon. I could do it more often, but
*COMMUNE GLYTHTIDE is very situational.
*COMMUNE HODIERNA requires a bleeder, which I was never fond of injuring myself intentionally.
*COMMUNE (Eluned 2) boosts athletics. Admittedly I don't do this as much because of the need to create Jalbreth balm. Speaking of which, we may need changes to the preparation of Jalbreth balm with Mechanical Lore going away.
GABELA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/24/2016 09:54 AM CST
>As I'm writing antinomic corruption, one of my goals is to not hamper Theurgy learning.
>GM Grejuva
Does this mean we might actually see this in 2017? Any chance we could have an update?
Heh.....I need to know if I need to start saving spell slots.
~Gab
>GM Grejuva
Does this mean we might actually see this in 2017? Any chance we could have an update?
Heh.....I need to know if I need to start saving spell slots.
~Gab
MOTHRA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/24/2016 06:14 PM CST
What if you expanded Commune (Immortal) that would train a large chunk of (or mindlock if you had PCs in the room to witness it) Theurgy and grant Devotion when used during that Immortal's holy week/holiday once per real life hour during the holiday? Shosandu for example? Commune Tamsine through the holiday, Commune Peri'el near the end of the holiday would also work and Commune Asketi throughout the holiday for half/quarter credit.
And use the component bag idea for rituals and communes requiring component ingredients? Although I'd just say give it 500 uses of X quality and it would draw out whatever item and message whatever you wanted the lore to say for any commune/ritual requiring a component. Sell 1000 use X+ quality component bags at festivals and found as incidental loot on quests and eventually craftable as extra uses or extra quality down the road. Differing qualities leave you room to give users a larger bump on devotion later on.
Jalbreth balm in particular is problematic for more reasons than requiring mech lore. I'm pretty sure it's still very picky about where you buy your shop purchased alchemical ingredients (most of them across the game don't work with it).
And use the component bag idea for rituals and communes requiring component ingredients? Although I'd just say give it 500 uses of X quality and it would draw out whatever item and message whatever you wanted the lore to say for any commune/ritual requiring a component. Sell 1000 use X+ quality component bags at festivals and found as incidental loot on quests and eventually craftable as extra uses or extra quality down the road. Differing qualities leave you room to give users a larger bump on devotion later on.
Jalbreth balm in particular is problematic for more reasons than requiring mech lore. I'm pretty sure it's still very picky about where you buy your shop purchased alchemical ingredients (most of them across the game don't work with it).
DR-GREJUVA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/25/2016 03:49 AM CST
>>Does this mean we might actually see this in 2017? Any chance we could have an update?
No ETA but I can outline what we've been up to. Our designs for Antinomic Sorcery have come a long way since we posted its initial tidbit. There are three approved spells, all conceived by Raesh. The first one is more or less done, but needs to be hooked into several Cleric systems.
Antinomic corruption will be...different from the other two sorcerous corruptions. Whereas the others can be said to be byproducts, antinomic corruption is the reason these spells work at all. It will have some (subjectively) beneficial effects, and a serious sorcerer will want to keep it from decaying.
Unorthodox religions are still a theme, and there is a new, much more cohesive one that directs this magic. You'll learn about it as you learn the first spell. Which brings me to...
I'm also working on an alternative way for learning high sorcery spells. The plan is to release it along with one spell for each of the three guilds; we'll see if that pans out. Relevant to the thread, this may even introduce a supplement to training Theurgy (and Summoning and Astrology).
GM Grejuva
No ETA but I can outline what we've been up to. Our designs for Antinomic Sorcery have come a long way since we posted its initial tidbit. There are three approved spells, all conceived by Raesh. The first one is more or less done, but needs to be hooked into several Cleric systems.
Antinomic corruption will be...different from the other two sorcerous corruptions. Whereas the others can be said to be byproducts, antinomic corruption is the reason these spells work at all. It will have some (subjectively) beneficial effects, and a serious sorcerer will want to keep it from decaying.
Unorthodox religions are still a theme, and there is a new, much more cohesive one that directs this magic. You'll learn about it as you learn the first spell. Which brings me to...
I'm also working on an alternative way for learning high sorcery spells. The plan is to release it along with one spell for each of the three guilds; we'll see if that pans out. Relevant to the thread, this may even introduce a supplement to training Theurgy (and Summoning and Astrology).
GM Grejuva
SHIFT3
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/25/2016 07:26 AM CST
This all sounds very interesting. Can you post a basic overview for the three new spells, and will backlash still be a thing with high sorcery spells?
SLEE1
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/25/2016 07:29 AM CST
>I'm also working on an alternative way for learning high sorcery spells.
A new cleric suicide mission quest?
Kidding aside I'm definitely intrigued and looking forward to what this might entail. Between this and enchanting I'm hoping next year will bring two of the things I've wanted to see for years.
MOTHRA
Re: Theurgy Learning
12/25/2016 10:20 AM CST
>will backlash still be a thing with high sorcery spells?
If antinomic sorcery is similar to teleologic (as far as backlash chance is concerned) sorcery you'll probably see approximately half as much chance for backlash than if you were casting a lunar or elemental spell sorcerously.
High sorcery doesn't mean it's safe or rational to cast. Antinomic sorcery is a corruption of universal laws. When you mix mana frequencies you risk backlash. It almost sounds like ideally you'll be risking backlash more to keep your corruption high.
If antinomic sorcery is similar to teleologic (as far as backlash chance is concerned) sorcery you'll probably see approximately half as much chance for backlash than if you were casting a lunar or elemental spell sorcerously.
High sorcery doesn't mean it's safe or rational to cast. Antinomic sorcery is a corruption of universal laws. When you mix mana frequencies you risk backlash. It almost sounds like ideally you'll be risking backlash more to keep your corruption high.
