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List is missing kithara, which should be between guti`adar and mandolin. It makes that jump a lot easier.
-Arcadion
ANDRIAB
IORUS
Re: Quick question on instrument options
11/19/2003 07:38 PM CST
Maybe someone could also tell us, or add to the list of instruments, what instrument is ideal at how many ranks. That would really be a lot of help!
Ioris
Ioris
METTEERJ
Re: Quick question on instrument options
11/20/2003 12:17 AM CST
Well, there's a fudgefactor. Someone's agility, and likely, musical theory for us.
You want to have that information added, likely a good idea to start tossing up some numbers.
-Natole
~The dance of death is a celebration of life to those who know the steps.
~I am Bard, hear me roar.
~"Amachi abulaes, lasablarger abulremer ia lyoalreidshabi erestaevan. Naenan ri gaena ri kweld."
You want to have that information added, likely a good idea to start tossing up some numbers.
-Natole
~The dance of death is a celebration of life to those who know the steps.
~I am Bard, hear me roar.
~"Amachi abulaes, lasablarger abulremer ia lyoalreidshabi erestaevan. Naenan ri gaena ri kweld."
LUCKYSEVENS
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 05:44 PM CST
So are we definitely moving away from a roundtime based system, towards a more enchante-like system?
This worries me very much, if so.
I'm afraid that the enchante-like system (I'll refer to it as continuous play) will make training instruments a MUCH longer process.
I rather like being able to sit down, play my drum for a few times until I lock, and move on. I don't like the idea of sitting down with my drum, starting a song that lasts 5 minutes but doesn't teach all that well.
Also, I think it would be counter-intuitive to allow us to continuous play while playing an enchante on the same instrument. Think of trying to mesh a slow waltz with Drums of the Snake.
Which makes me think of another concern/suggestion.
Currently, enchantes are time signature neutral, meaning they are based on BPM's. You can play a song at any tempi, so long as you know the time signature.
However, many of the play styles that have been suggested are based on dances, which in turn are based solely on time signatures and the articulation of specific beats within that time signature. For instance, a waltz is in triple meter with an articulation on the first beat.
Are we going to have both time signature-neutral and time signature-specific styles of play?
Although I suppose you could play something at 120 BPM at a tempo of adagio, and still play a waltz so long as you played the former in a triple-meter.
I'm probably over analyzing this cause I just realized I'm late for opera rehearsal!
GENT
This worries me very much, if so.
I'm afraid that the enchante-like system (I'll refer to it as continuous play) will make training instruments a MUCH longer process.
I rather like being able to sit down, play my drum for a few times until I lock, and move on. I don't like the idea of sitting down with my drum, starting a song that lasts 5 minutes but doesn't teach all that well.
Also, I think it would be counter-intuitive to allow us to continuous play while playing an enchante on the same instrument. Think of trying to mesh a slow waltz with Drums of the Snake.
Which makes me think of another concern/suggestion.
Currently, enchantes are time signature neutral, meaning they are based on BPM's. You can play a song at any tempi, so long as you know the time signature.
However, many of the play styles that have been suggested are based on dances, which in turn are based solely on time signatures and the articulation of specific beats within that time signature. For instance, a waltz is in triple meter with an articulation on the first beat.
Are we going to have both time signature-neutral and time signature-specific styles of play?
Although I suppose you could play something at 120 BPM at a tempo of adagio, and still play a waltz so long as you played the former in a triple-meter.
I'm probably over analyzing this cause I just realized I'm late for opera rehearsal!
GENT
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 06:01 PM CST
> I rather like being able to sit down, play my drum for a few times until I lock, and move on. I don't like the idea of sitting down with my drum, starting a song that lasts 5 minutes but doesn't teach all that well.
The learning rates over time will be staying the same, or as close to the same as I can manage. That is to say, if you are getting x bits per second under the current system, you should be able to get close to x bits per second under the new system. The learning rates aren't broken, so I don't see any reason to fix them, aside from bringing them back into sync for all Guilds. That may mean a slight change, but we'll see how it works out.
As far as playing an enchante on the instrument while playing the instrument normally at the same time goes, you can do that now. I can easily mesh a lullaby with Drums of Snakes under the current system, which likewise doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what to do about that in the rewrite. It's one of those areas that still has me debating alternatives.
Just for the record, Enchantes are NOT time signature neutral. Some are 4/4 time, some are 3/4 time. Yes, it does make a difference in existing Clash mechanics, if nothing else.
Ultimately, though, it just comes back down to playability. How far do we want to take realism if it means more pitfalls like Clash, Magic Resistance, and the like? I think we have more than enough things stacked against us without seeking out more.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
The learning rates over time will be staying the same, or as close to the same as I can manage. That is to say, if you are getting x bits per second under the current system, you should be able to get close to x bits per second under the new system. The learning rates aren't broken, so I don't see any reason to fix them, aside from bringing them back into sync for all Guilds. That may mean a slight change, but we'll see how it works out.
As far as playing an enchante on the instrument while playing the instrument normally at the same time goes, you can do that now. I can easily mesh a lullaby with Drums of Snakes under the current system, which likewise doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what to do about that in the rewrite. It's one of those areas that still has me debating alternatives.
Just for the record, Enchantes are NOT time signature neutral. Some are 4/4 time, some are 3/4 time. Yes, it does make a difference in existing Clash mechanics, if nothing else.
Ultimately, though, it just comes back down to playability. How far do we want to take realism if it means more pitfalls like Clash, Magic Resistance, and the like? I think we have more than enough things stacked against us without seeking out more.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
CYVIUSELORAXE
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 07:26 PM CST
We totally need to be able to play a one-handed percussion and a one-handed wind instrument at the same time. While, you know, you're looking at things and stuff
<_<
>_>
<_<
>_>
CONRADB
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 08:11 PM CST
Hiya All,
First post since I've been back! Just felt the need to jump in and agree that I love that we'll be able to play all the instruments again and learn decent experience...the ladder system is a good transition to keep our big bards learning, but some of the macho in Eades dies every time he plays a large harp <g>.
I also share GENT's uncertainty about continuous play. I think the general training method is to play repeatedly until you lock, cyling through instruments (and other assorted skills). If PLAYs last as long as enchantes and teach the same EXP, its probable that most of us would have mindstate problems. If they any slower, our training will suffer.
I agree that the PLAY rewrite should include many more styles so that bards might actually be able to play something that suited them to RP (I would love to play a fierce battle song on my ox horn before the hunt), but also a "quiet mode" when you're just sitting in the guild or a safe spot, talking while you practice.
I'm not a musician IRL, so I don't know how everyone else feels, but to me music messaging translates very poorly to sounds in my head. I don't pay attention to the messaging since I've seen it all a billion times. The main bardic performance art enjoyable by humans playing the game in DR is singing, while music is just something we have to do to gain EXP. How many people would go to a concert of a bard sitting on stage playing an instrument no matter how wonderful the music messaging? You have to be a much more hardcore RPer than me to be able to enjoy that. Am I way out of line from the bardic mainsteam on this?
Bottom line is, I think there is "music for training" and "music for RP". The "music for RP" in my mind would be short bursts, things like playing arrival music when someone enters a room, playing an agressive hunt-song before battle, or playing a flashy, technical song on your oboe when you see a bunch of empaths practicing their whistles ::hum::. Maybe we could have continuous play for training and musical accompanyment to plays/songs, while developing a short, non-teaching "cantrip" style PLAY that would just let you blast out a short ditty for RP? A bard quest which would yield a custom sentence or two for the short "cantrip" messaging would be killer.
E
First post since I've been back! Just felt the need to jump in and agree that I love that we'll be able to play all the instruments again and learn decent experience...the ladder system is a good transition to keep our big bards learning, but some of the macho in Eades dies every time he plays a large harp <g>.
I also share GENT's uncertainty about continuous play. I think the general training method is to play repeatedly until you lock, cyling through instruments (and other assorted skills). If PLAYs last as long as enchantes and teach the same EXP, its probable that most of us would have mindstate problems. If they any slower, our training will suffer.
I agree that the PLAY rewrite should include many more styles so that bards might actually be able to play something that suited them to RP (I would love to play a fierce battle song on my ox horn before the hunt), but also a "quiet mode" when you're just sitting in the guild or a safe spot, talking while you practice.
I'm not a musician IRL, so I don't know how everyone else feels, but to me music messaging translates very poorly to sounds in my head. I don't pay attention to the messaging since I've seen it all a billion times. The main bardic performance art enjoyable by humans playing the game in DR is singing, while music is just something we have to do to gain EXP. How many people would go to a concert of a bard sitting on stage playing an instrument no matter how wonderful the music messaging? You have to be a much more hardcore RPer than me to be able to enjoy that. Am I way out of line from the bardic mainsteam on this?
Bottom line is, I think there is "music for training" and "music for RP". The "music for RP" in my mind would be short bursts, things like playing arrival music when someone enters a room, playing an agressive hunt-song before battle, or playing a flashy, technical song on your oboe when you see a bunch of empaths practicing their whistles ::hum::. Maybe we could have continuous play for training and musical accompanyment to plays/songs, while developing a short, non-teaching "cantrip" style PLAY that would just let you blast out a short ditty for RP? A bard quest which would yield a custom sentence or two for the short "cantrip" messaging would be killer.
E
BEVERAGEK
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 08:41 PM CST
Actually, playing as a whole as it stands is pretty useless(aside from aiding enchantes... but when one has so much more in Vocals, it sort of defeats the purpose).
One stepping stone at a time though is what they always say--I'm sure after Play is Rewritten, sometime in the future benefits to playing may be created.
Seriously, my instruments are approaching the 300-400 rank ranges, and I can just DREAM of what those ranks would equivilate to in the Trading skill. I would be set for life, for the great beyond, and for reincarnation.
Call me baby-face Lei.
One stepping stone at a time though is what they always say--I'm sure after Play is Rewritten, sometime in the future benefits to playing may be created.
Seriously, my instruments are approaching the 300-400 rank ranges, and I can just DREAM of what those ranks would equivilate to in the Trading skill. I would be set for life, for the great beyond, and for reincarnation.
Call me baby-face Lei.
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 08:48 PM CST
> I think the general training method is to play repeatedly until you lock, cyling through instruments (and other assorted skills). If PLAYs last as long as enchantes and teach the same EXP, its probable that most of us would have mindstate problems.
What I am aiming for is songs that last approx. 2 minutes or so. Every x seconds they'll quietly pulse, and you will get experience just as if you had an x second RT play under the current system. In other words, pretty much the same experience per period of time. Follow so far?
You can stop at any time (STOP PLAY), just like you can Enchantes, so mindstate shouldn't be any more of an issue than it is now.
About the only thing that will change is that you'll only have to start a new song once every 2 minutes, instead of once ever 6-15 seconds or so, and that song will only message the room every 30 seconds or so instead of twice every 10ish seconds like it does now. Well, that and you'll be able to do a few things you couldn't do before in RT, although some actions (climbing, swimming, etc) will still be restricted.
I repeat, your overall learning rate over a period of time should remain very close to the same, and you can stop at any time. I've toyed with giving a small bonus to those that actually finish a song completely as an incentive to do so, but we'll see on that. It partly depends on how much fudging I have to do to undo the "quick fix" experience changes that were done a couple years back, since they'll no longer really apply.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
What I am aiming for is songs that last approx. 2 minutes or so. Every x seconds they'll quietly pulse, and you will get experience just as if you had an x second RT play under the current system. In other words, pretty much the same experience per period of time. Follow so far?
You can stop at any time (STOP PLAY), just like you can Enchantes, so mindstate shouldn't be any more of an issue than it is now.
About the only thing that will change is that you'll only have to start a new song once every 2 minutes, instead of once ever 6-15 seconds or so, and that song will only message the room every 30 seconds or so instead of twice every 10ish seconds like it does now. Well, that and you'll be able to do a few things you couldn't do before in RT, although some actions (climbing, swimming, etc) will still be restricted.
I repeat, your overall learning rate over a period of time should remain very close to the same, and you can stop at any time. I've toyed with giving a small bonus to those that actually finish a song completely as an incentive to do so, but we'll see on that. It partly depends on how much fudging I have to do to undo the "quick fix" experience changes that were done a couple years back, since they'll no longer really apply.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 08:57 PM CST
> One stepping stone at a time though is what they always say--I'm sure after Play is Rewritten, sometime in the future benefits to playing may be created.
I've got some stuff in mind to make Play at least a little more worthwhile. That's part of why I'm looking at a model closer to enchantes - if we give instrumental music itself perks, you aren't going to be able to take much advantage of them if you are stuck in Roundtime the entire time. It also gives us a way to check and see if someone is actively playing, and interact with it that way. It opens the doors to a lot of possibilties, including but certainly not limited to the idea of "Dueling Banjos" somebody suggested a few posts back. And that leads to the possibility of, say, musicians to use their songs to directly counter sound-based attacks. Dueling banjos to the next level!
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
I've got some stuff in mind to make Play at least a little more worthwhile. That's part of why I'm looking at a model closer to enchantes - if we give instrumental music itself perks, you aren't going to be able to take much advantage of them if you are stuck in Roundtime the entire time. It also gives us a way to check and see if someone is actively playing, and interact with it that way. It opens the doors to a lot of possibilties, including but certainly not limited to the idea of "Dueling Banjos" somebody suggested a few posts back. And that leads to the possibility of, say, musicians to use their songs to directly counter sound-based attacks. Dueling banjos to the next level!
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
CONRADB
Re: RT Play v. Continuous Play
03/08/2006 09:01 PM CST
I convert, I'm sold!
Oh, Lawful Evil Dwarf Fighter Bard, by the way. And I didn't take that test as "Eades".
E
Oh, Lawful Evil Dwarf Fighter Bard, by the way. And I didn't take that test as "Eades".
E
LUCKYSEVENS
Re: Time Signatures
03/08/2006 09:30 PM CST
I'm sold as well. As long as time v. benefit stays the same, I'm happy.
As for time signatures could we get this information put into the GL's blurbs on the enchantes? They currently only tell you what the BPMs are, which at certain numbers could go either duple or triple meter. I hope to god we don't have 5/4 or anything ridiculous like that. Heh.
I agree that making things too complex won't make it fun. Being a musician, it can sometimes be hard to PAFO when things don't make sense musically.
GENT
As for time signatures could we get this information put into the GL's blurbs on the enchantes? They currently only tell you what the BPMs are, which at certain numbers could go either duple or triple meter. I hope to god we don't have 5/4 or anything ridiculous like that. Heh.
I agree that making things too complex won't make it fun. Being a musician, it can sometimes be hard to PAFO when things don't make sense musically.
GENT
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Time Signatures
03/08/2006 09:40 PM CST
I can certainly see about getting the Guildleaders to talk about the time signature, but it probably won't be a high priority thing at the moment. After beating my head against the desk trying to figure out why Macfrae still thinks he's a she, I'm terrified of Guildleader code.
Well, it's not quite that bad, but still...
For now, all enchantes are limited to 3/4 and 4/4. I'm perfectly happy with that. I don't really see any overwhelming need to add 2/4, 6/8, and all those other fun ones, at least not for now. If a good reason comes along that won't bog things down for the average player, I might look at it again.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
Well, it's not quite that bad, but still...
For now, all enchantes are limited to 3/4 and 4/4. I'm perfectly happy with that. I don't really see any overwhelming need to add 2/4, 6/8, and all those other fun ones, at least not for now. If a good reason comes along that won't bog things down for the average player, I might look at it again.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
KAJAGOOGOO
Re: Time Signatures
03/08/2006 10:07 PM CST
Id like to see a one-person-band instrument, that someone could play that would just slightly work every type of instrument skill, all at one time, perhaps limit it to play only certain Play types and it never really sound good.
Got Body Parts?
Got Body Parts?
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Time Signatures
03/08/2006 10:13 PM CST
Bert's One Man Band set-up from Mary Poppins was indeed discussed at Vegascon, but we didn't think it would be wise to unleash that accent on the unsuspecting population of Elanthia....
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
KAJAGOOGOO
Re: Time Signatures
03/08/2006 10:16 PM CST
you shoulda drank more rum... it would be finished already.
Got Body Parts?
Got Body Parts?
HULDAHS-PAL
Re: Time Signatures
03/09/2006 08:50 AM CST
Dart said:
It's entirely too late for that.
_____________________________________
Huldah just arrived.
>report Hi, I hate the name Huldah. Can you yank this idiot? Huldah reminds me of a smelly cheese and I shouldn't have to be subjected to cheese when I play.
AIM: Huldahs Pal
| but we didn't think it would be wise to unleash that accent on the unsuspecting population of Elanthia.... |
It's entirely too late for that.
_____________________________________
Huldah just arrived.
>report Hi, I hate the name Huldah. Can you yank this idiot? Huldah reminds me of a smelly cheese and I shouldn't have to be subjected to cheese when I play.
AIM: Huldahs Pal
DAERLYNN
Re: Time Signatures
03/09/2006 11:03 AM CST
This is just a rehash of a post I had posted before, but maybe some of it makes sense:
A long while ago, there were discussions about expanding the range of our enchantes. Part of it was making them directed at targets, at self, at room, etc by perhaps varying the volume.
Now that our enchantes also have keys, is there any thought to using that fact? Enchantes played in the same or related keys go better together or enhance each other better, and vice versa.
Also, is there perhaps thought to varying enchantes by letting a bard with enough music skill modulate enchantes into other keys? These could perhaps strengthen some effects of an enchante whilst perhaps weakening other parts? For example, perhaps Drums of the Snake would work as it does in the current key - if we could modulate it up one key, it could enhance picking, or some other combination of skills. It still does basically the same thing, but is more like a theme and variations on an enchante.
Perhaps some keys would overcome MR easier. For example, if Dflat Major was strong against BMR, things like Sanctuary or Aura may have that key be the default key, Lilt's key would be close, but perhaps Abandoned Heart's default key would be far from that one.
Each key could perhaps have an effect like that, a 'color' so to speak. Musicians, at least some, do believe that certain keys have different colors, or characteristics, no matter how unscientific and/or illogical that sounds. I know that I believe it - certain keys on the piano just have a richness of tone that others do not.
So E Major could be a bright, blaring key. Not a good key for Lilt, so there is no Lilt variation in it. Great for Rage, it just generally makes Rage better. For Eye, perhaps it dulls some parts of the Enchante, but it makes it even better for finding people in hiding. Misdirection may actually be worse if tried in this key.
I guess some of the above may be 'too much', but perhaps some of it could work. I would love to find a use for modulating our enchantes into other keys, and this would give us another benefit for our music skills.
Daerlynn
A long while ago, there were discussions about expanding the range of our enchantes. Part of it was making them directed at targets, at self, at room, etc by perhaps varying the volume.
Now that our enchantes also have keys, is there any thought to using that fact? Enchantes played in the same or related keys go better together or enhance each other better, and vice versa.
Also, is there perhaps thought to varying enchantes by letting a bard with enough music skill modulate enchantes into other keys? These could perhaps strengthen some effects of an enchante whilst perhaps weakening other parts? For example, perhaps Drums of the Snake would work as it does in the current key - if we could modulate it up one key, it could enhance picking, or some other combination of skills. It still does basically the same thing, but is more like a theme and variations on an enchante.
Perhaps some keys would overcome MR easier. For example, if Dflat Major was strong against BMR, things like Sanctuary or Aura may have that key be the default key, Lilt's key would be close, but perhaps Abandoned Heart's default key would be far from that one.
Each key could perhaps have an effect like that, a 'color' so to speak. Musicians, at least some, do believe that certain keys have different colors, or characteristics, no matter how unscientific and/or illogical that sounds. I know that I believe it - certain keys on the piano just have a richness of tone that others do not.
So E Major could be a bright, blaring key. Not a good key for Lilt, so there is no Lilt variation in it. Great for Rage, it just generally makes Rage better. For Eye, perhaps it dulls some parts of the Enchante, but it makes it even better for finding people in hiding. Misdirection may actually be worse if tried in this key.
I guess some of the above may be 'too much', but perhaps some of it could work. I would love to find a use for modulating our enchantes into other keys, and this would give us another benefit for our music skills.
Daerlynn
JOEBUDNA
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 06:10 AM CST
Dart - I've been reading everything, and I think you made a few oblique references to this, but just to clarify and settle my stomach - will we be able to increase the difficulty of PLAY through the new parameters? My current problem is that I need to learn lots of percussion, but can't given the cap on the instrument. I need to be able to use the same instrument to attempt some difficult stunts, or something, and get my rates back up. Right now they are pitiful.
It makes all kinds of sense to shift the difficulty away from the instrument and into the PLAY verb. I just want to hear you tell me that I'll be able to learn again.
- Nervous Useff
Kleis asks you, "any chance you'd be willing to shoot me with your crossbow?"
It makes all kinds of sense to shift the difficulty away from the instrument and into the PLAY verb. I just want to hear you tell me that I'll be able to learn again.
- Nervous Useff
Kleis asks you, "any chance you'd be willing to shoot me with your crossbow?"
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 12:57 PM CST
> but just to clarify and settle my stomach - will we be able to increase the difficulty of PLAY through the new parameters?
Absolutely.
The current target is a bare minimum of 1000 ranks. How far we go past that with the initial release will depend on how many different song types we ultimately settle on. I'm building in a few options that should make expanding past caps much easier. One such option will be the ability to play song scrolls. It's far easier to come up with a new song out of a virtually limitless pool than a new remotely in-genre instrument class out of an ever-dwindling pool.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
Absolutely.
The current target is a bare minimum of 1000 ranks. How far we go past that with the initial release will depend on how many different song types we ultimately settle on. I'm building in a few options that should make expanding past caps much easier. One such option will be the ability to play song scrolls. It's far easier to come up with a new song out of a virtually limitless pool than a new remotely in-genre instrument class out of an ever-dwindling pool.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
BEVERAGEK
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 04:00 PM CST
>>Absolutely.<<
Does that mean lighter instruments will be able to learn as well as heavier instruments? What about one handed versus two handed? Will absolutely every instrument teach the same?(of course this is all speculation, but I'm sure you have a good general idea by now)
Call me baby-face Lei.
Does that mean lighter instruments will be able to learn as well as heavier instruments? What about one handed versus two handed? Will absolutely every instrument teach the same?(of course this is all speculation, but I'm sure you have a good general idea by now)
Call me baby-face Lei.
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 05:39 PM CST
> Does that mean lighter instruments will be able to learn as well as heavier instruments? What about one handed versus two handed? Will absolutely every instrument teach the same?
Things like weight, number of hands, and tools required have absolutely no bearing on how well you learn instruments now, nor will they in the future. Each instrument type has been assigned an associated complexity. That is what defines how easy/hard it is to play, and your level of success (or failure) determines how much you learn.
This will not be changing at all in the PLAY rewrite. I am not about to rewrite something that was just recently, which is the case with instruments. We need to move forward, not keep going in circles. That doesn't mean I won't fix a few issues, but we need to look ahead, not back.
Will all instruments teach the same under the new PLAY? No. The same complexity scale will exist. What will change is that you'll have a lot of options to increase or decrease the overall difficulty of what you are trying to do. You will still need a minimum amount of skill to even try tackling a new instrument, and eventually you are going to have to be playing more and more complex songs if you want to keep learning on the same old instrument, or move up to a more complex instrument if you want to keep playing the same easy songs.
To put it as simply as possible, you'll have two complexity scales instead of one - instruments and songs. This will give musicians a much wider range of options; they can stick with their favorite instrument and work on progressively difficult songs, or they can stick with their favorite styles of music and work on progressively difficult instruments.
My main goal, though, is to make the songs themselves the driving force in training, not the instruments. To use the Barbarian analogy, the instrument is just our weapon. The song is the critter we are trying to defeat. Barbarians don't move up a weapon progression when training, they move up a hunting ladder. That's more or less what I'm aiming for here. The only difference is that there will be some minimal skills required for each instrument type if you want to sound good on them, and the more skill it takes to use the instrument, the farther you'll be able to push the limits of your current "hunting spot".
Make sense?
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
Things like weight, number of hands, and tools required have absolutely no bearing on how well you learn instruments now, nor will they in the future. Each instrument type has been assigned an associated complexity. That is what defines how easy/hard it is to play, and your level of success (or failure) determines how much you learn.
This will not be changing at all in the PLAY rewrite. I am not about to rewrite something that was just recently, which is the case with instruments. We need to move forward, not keep going in circles. That doesn't mean I won't fix a few issues, but we need to look ahead, not back.
Will all instruments teach the same under the new PLAY? No. The same complexity scale will exist. What will change is that you'll have a lot of options to increase or decrease the overall difficulty of what you are trying to do. You will still need a minimum amount of skill to even try tackling a new instrument, and eventually you are going to have to be playing more and more complex songs if you want to keep learning on the same old instrument, or move up to a more complex instrument if you want to keep playing the same easy songs.
To put it as simply as possible, you'll have two complexity scales instead of one - instruments and songs. This will give musicians a much wider range of options; they can stick with their favorite instrument and work on progressively difficult songs, or they can stick with their favorite styles of music and work on progressively difficult instruments.
My main goal, though, is to make the songs themselves the driving force in training, not the instruments. To use the Barbarian analogy, the instrument is just our weapon. The song is the critter we are trying to defeat. Barbarians don't move up a weapon progression when training, they move up a hunting ladder. That's more or less what I'm aiming for here. The only difference is that there will be some minimal skills required for each instrument type if you want to sound good on them, and the more skill it takes to use the instrument, the farther you'll be able to push the limits of your current "hunting spot".
Make sense?
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
CYVIUSELORAXE
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 06:00 PM CST
>number of hands
I want an enchante that makes me grow extra sets of arms...
I want an enchante that makes me grow extra sets of arms...
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/10/2006 06:08 PM CST
Opus to an Octopus?
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
BEVERAGEK
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/11/2006 03:57 AM CST
>>Make sense?<<
Bye bye didjeridu, hello txistu.
Call me baby-face Lei.
Bye bye didjeridu, hello txistu.
Call me baby-face Lei.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Instrument Difficulty
03/11/2006 03:59 AM CST
>>Opus to an Octopus?<<
If naga's can exist purely of sound, can't other physical(more or less) aspects exist from mere sound as well?
Or is that stretching the imagination a bit?
Call me baby-face Lei.
If naga's can exist purely of sound, can't other physical(more or less) aspects exist from mere sound as well?
Or is that stretching the imagination a bit?
Call me baby-face Lei.
HARTRB
Re: Experiment Results (Final)
08/16/2006 10:15 PM CDT
I will be posting the relative difficulty of each mood within each song in the next week or so, depending on how much time I have to mess with the now completed spreadsheet. The source Excel file is available for other math/numbers geeks but the raw log files are now hidden in the depths of my archive, never to be found.
NOTES (Repeated):
[Above], I am listing the relative difficulty of each of the [wind] instruments I possessed, along with those instruments listed in a compilation of difficulties based on Olwydd.Org and Dewsong's listing. The value is composed of adding all play values (1-6) for each song type in each mood.
Of the above instruments, some I did not possess at the time I went through all of them. I did not wish to haphazardly add them in later when my relevant skills had increased and thus skew the results. Some I still do not possess. If anyone wished to make available instruments for testing at some point or have simple ones I might purchas cheaply, I would be interested in the following (mentioned in the above listings or that I have seen IG).
STRINGED: Kithara, Sra'ajhh, Angle Harp (that is neither a Child's nor Large), Rebec, Cistre, Lyra Viol, Treble Viol, Violin, Cittern, Bandoura, Psaltery, Zither, Py'a-py'a (Pyi-pya)
PERCUSSION: Doumbec, Castanets, Damaru, Naqqara, Shaman's Drum, Ritual Drum, Maracas
WIND: Clarin, Hichiriki, Syrinx, Hunting Horn, Cornet, Carnyx, Ram's Horn, Coral Shintu
The following are noted in my songbook's listings but I do not know if they actually exist. If they do, I would like to both confirm that and perhaps acquire or borrow them as well.
STRINGED: Ramkie, Folk Lute, Tallharpa, Cruth, Mayuri, Balalaika, Kelsa
PERCUSSION: Gourd Rattle, Wooden Scraper
WIND: Clay Whistle, Candy Whistle, Side-blown Flute, Cornu
-r
| Val | WIND | Val | STRINGS | Val | PERCUSSION |
| 2755 | Txistu | 2725 | Lyre | 2815 | Guiro |
| 2755 | Mirliton | 2778 | Guti'adar | 3084 | Bones |
| 3059 | Shakuhachi | 2998 | Child's Harp | 3117 | Zills |
| 3060 | Fife | Kithara | 3162 | Spoons | |
| Clarin | Sra'ajhh | 3162 | Tambourine | ||
| 3061 | Minjayrah | Angle Harp | 3162 | Darje | |
| 3208 | Whistle | 3037 | Pi Tambura | Doumbec | |
| 3213 | Flute | 3181 | Faenellica | Bodhran | |
| 3213 | Ocarina | 3193 | Mandolin | Castanets | |
| 3214 | Recorder | 3287 | Lap Harp | Damaru | |
| Hichiriki | 3302 | Lute | Naqqara | ||
| Syrinx | Rebec | Shaman's Drum | |||
| 3339 | Gemshorn | Sarangi | 3472 | Tabla | |
| 3339 | Ox Horn | Cistre | Temple Drum | ||
| 3415 | Yarghul | Lyra Viol | Tapani | ||
| 3415 | Zurna | 3302 | Pi Sitar | Gansa-gabang | |
| 3415 | Mitbiq | 3403 | Gittern | ||
| 3600 | Shawm | Treble Viol | |||
| Hunting Horn | Fiddle | ||||
| Cornet | Violin | ||||
| Carnyx | Large Harp | ||||
| 3607 | Oboe | Cittern | |||
| 3625 | Physalis | Bandoura | |||
| 3642 | Didjeridu | Psaltery | |||
| Zither |
NOTES (Repeated):
[Above], I am listing the relative difficulty of each of the [wind] instruments I possessed, along with those instruments listed in a compilation of difficulties based on Olwydd.Org and Dewsong's listing. The value is composed of adding all play values (1-6) for each song type in each mood.
Of the above instruments, some I did not possess at the time I went through all of them. I did not wish to haphazardly add them in later when my relevant skills had increased and thus skew the results. Some I still do not possess. If anyone wished to make available instruments for testing at some point or have simple ones I might purchas cheaply, I would be interested in the following (mentioned in the above listings or that I have seen IG).
STRINGED: Kithara, Sra'ajhh, Angle Harp (that is neither a Child's nor Large), Rebec, Cistre, Lyra Viol, Treble Viol, Violin, Cittern, Bandoura, Psaltery, Zither, Py'a-py'a (Pyi-pya)
PERCUSSION: Doumbec, Castanets, Damaru, Naqqara, Shaman's Drum, Ritual Drum, Maracas
WIND: Clarin, Hichiriki, Syrinx, Hunting Horn, Cornet, Carnyx, Ram's Horn, Coral Shintu
The following are noted in my songbook's listings but I do not know if they actually exist. If they do, I would like to both confirm that and perhaps acquire or borrow them as well.
STRINGED: Ramkie, Folk Lute, Tallharpa, Cruth, Mayuri, Balalaika, Kelsa
PERCUSSION: Gourd Rattle, Wooden Scraper
WIND: Clay Whistle, Candy Whistle, Side-blown Flute, Cornu
-r
HULDAHS-PAL
Re: Experiment Results (Final)
08/16/2006 10:19 PM CDT
I think those are the new ones Dart was talking about.
___________________________
Huldah: *hums the tune to 'Final Countdown'. Me: Stop that! Huldah: What? Me: STOP HUMMING THAT! Huldah: I don't know what you're talking about. Are you hearing things? (humming). Me: Only 32 more days of this? Right?!
| STRINGED: Ramkie, Folk Lute, Tallharpa, Cruth, Mayuri, Balalaika, Kelsa |
| PERCUSSION: Gourd Rattle, Wooden Scraper |
| WIND: Clay Whistle, Candy Whistle, Side-blown Flute, Cornu |
___________________________
Huldah: *hums the tune to 'Final Countdown'. Me: Stop that! Huldah: What? Me: STOP HUMMING THAT! Huldah: I don't know what you're talking about. Are you hearing things? (humming). Me: Only 32 more days of this? Right?!
TERAZI
Re: Experiment Results (Final)
08/16/2006 10:25 PM CDT
>PERCUSSION: Gourd Rattle, Wooden Scraper
These are, I believe, maracas and guiros respectively.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
These are, I believe, maracas and guiros respectively.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
DR-DARTENIAN
Re: Experiment Results (Final)
08/16/2006 11:00 PM CDT
Nah, those aren't necessarily new. There's no record of what all has been released, so if I wasn't 100% sure, I erred on the side of caution and let it go to the books.
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
- GM Dartenian
"You ain't seen nothin' yet!" - Al Jolson
LiveJournal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/dartenian/
CHAOS
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 06:49 AM CDT
>Clay Whistle, Candy Whistle
I know these both exist or have at one point in time. There's the spun-sugar whistle from the Wren Fest back when, and there've beeen a number of clay type whistles about at fests I believe.
Danner
I know these both exist or have at one point in time. There's the spun-sugar whistle from the Wren Fest back when, and there've beeen a number of clay type whistles about at fests I believe.
Danner
KINGC20
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 07:03 AM CDT
I can't guess at how many hours you spent doing this, but thank you for all of your hard work.
Kleis
Kleis
HARTRB
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 07:20 AM CDT
Thanks for that update, Danner. On a related note, I tested the Keyed Flute and the Turtle-Shaped Ocarina from Leth against their more typical counterparts, due to the description given in the catalog down there. They are actually the same difficulty to play despite the blurb. I am thinking the Cane Flute from Horse Clan will be the same when I get a chance to run a round of testing on it against a new Flute baseline.
Awww, thank you as well, Kleis. I actually cheated a bit... I compiled a script to put myself to sleep and run through all 558 possible song-mood combinations for each instrument and then let it run over a couple of nights. No experience being gained so no huhu about that, hide out somewhere where it will disturb no one and all is good.
Now... I just need other, more skilled victims to run that script and send me the results for finer differentiation... -g-
-r
Awww, thank you as well, Kleis. I actually cheated a bit... I compiled a script to put myself to sleep and run through all 558 possible song-mood combinations for each instrument and then let it run over a couple of nights. No experience being gained so no huhu about that, hide out somewhere where it will disturb no one and all is good.
Now... I just need other, more skilled victims to run that script and send me the results for finer differentiation... -g-
-r
TERAZI
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 08:28 AM CDT
>I am thinking the Cane Flute from Horse Clan will be the same when I get a chance to run a round of testing on it against a new Flute baseline.
The cane flute from horse clan is harder than other flutes. It falls just below the didjerido in difficulty. I played it for a little while right after they were first released because I had capped out my previous wind instrument but couldn't quite play the didjerido yet.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
The cane flute from horse clan is harder than other flutes. It falls just below the didjerido in difficulty. I played it for a little while right after they were first released because I had capped out my previous wind instrument but couldn't quite play the didjerido yet.
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
CONRADB
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 10:47 AM CDT
Hey Alexayn,
When I messed around with the modifiers to playing, it seemed to me that the modifiers could flex the difficulty of each song type well above and below into the difficulties that were in the range of other song types. Do you see that too?
I guess what I'm saying is, if I was giving a novice advice I wouldnt tell him to play scales in the difficulty order that you listed, then appeggio in the difficulty order you listed, then ditty in the difficulty order you listed, because it seems like they overlap by a bit - once you can play masterful scales, you're ready for something more than an offkey appeggio.
Ok, to put this in ugly graphical terms:
[The way that I don't think it is (the song type determines the difficulty and the modifiers flex it slightly]
[
scales
]
[
appeggio
]
[
ditty
]
[and so on]
[They way I think it is (the song type determines the base difficulty and the modfiers flex it well into the ranges of others]
[
scales
]
[
appeggio
]
[
ditty
]
Does this make any sense to anyone? Do you all take this to be obvious? Just want to see if what I think is true without doing all the work myself :)
E
When I messed around with the modifiers to playing, it seemed to me that the modifiers could flex the difficulty of each song type well above and below into the difficulties that were in the range of other song types. Do you see that too?
I guess what I'm saying is, if I was giving a novice advice I wouldnt tell him to play scales in the difficulty order that you listed, then appeggio in the difficulty order you listed, then ditty in the difficulty order you listed, because it seems like they overlap by a bit - once you can play masterful scales, you're ready for something more than an offkey appeggio.
Ok, to put this in ugly graphical terms:
[The way that I don't think it is (the song type determines the difficulty and the modifiers flex it slightly]
[
scales
]
[
appeggio
]
[
ditty
]
[and so on]
[They way I think it is (the song type determines the base difficulty and the modfiers flex it well into the ranges of others]
[
scales
]
[
appeggio
]
[
ditty
]
Does this make any sense to anyone? Do you all take this to be obvious? Just want to see if what I think is true without doing all the work myself :)
E
TERAZI
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 12:21 PM CDT
From what I've seen (both from myself playing and from helping others) the difficulty modifiers can put a song well up the range for some of the song types in either direction.
So playing a masterful scales could well be more difficult than a playful ditty, for example.
Something to play with, though I haven't had the ambition to do so yet :)
And for what it's worth... Azi was well on her way to capping out the gansa-gambang, didjerido and zither. Yet she fumbles when trying to play many of the harder styles for the more difficult song types, even on her easiest instruments (lyre, guiro, mirliton).
So lots of room for growth and experimentation there :)
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
So playing a masterful scales could well be more difficult than a playful ditty, for example.
Something to play with, though I haven't had the ambition to do so yet :)
And for what it's worth... Azi was well on her way to capping out the gansa-gambang, didjerido and zither. Yet she fumbles when trying to play many of the harder styles for the more difficult song types, even on her easiest instruments (lyre, guiro, mirliton).
So lots of room for growth and experimentation there :)
~Azimee
~~~
If you find yourself confronted by a group of armed guards, be warned that they will attack you in mass. No matter what you have been told by other sources, rest assured that they will not line up to attack you one by one. ~Handbook of Practical Heroics
CONRADB
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 12:49 PM CDT
Oh my god, formatting. Thanks Azimee, I think thats confirmation of what I was asking. So it looks like the next thing to do is arrange the data so that we have a listing of each song type + play style combination in absolute order of difficulty, rather than in relative order for that song type. ::nudge Alexayn:: pleasy?
Repost of first post with less insane formatting:
When I messed around with the modifiers to playing, it seemed to me that the modifiers could flex the difficulty of each song type well above and below into the difficulties that were in the range of other song types. Do you see that too?
I guess what I'm saying is, if I was giving a novice advice I wouldnt tell him to play scales in the difficulty order that you listed, then appeggio in the difficulty order you listed, then ditty in the difficulty order you listed, because it seems like they overlap by a bit - once you can play masterful scales, you're ready for something more than an offkey appeggio.
Ok, to put this in ugly graphical terms:
The way that I don't think it is (the song type determines the difficulty and the modifiers flex it slightly):
I..............scales...............I
++++++++++++++++++++++I...............appeggio.............I
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I..........ditty...........I
They way I think it is (the song type determines the base difficulty and the modfiers flex it well into the ranges of others:
I........................scales...............................I
++++++++I..........................appeggio.........................I
++++++++++++++++I........................ditty.............................I
Does this make any sense to anyone? Do you all take this to be obvious? Just want to see if what I think is true without doing all the work myself :)
E
Repost of first post with less insane formatting:
When I messed around with the modifiers to playing, it seemed to me that the modifiers could flex the difficulty of each song type well above and below into the difficulties that were in the range of other song types. Do you see that too?
I guess what I'm saying is, if I was giving a novice advice I wouldnt tell him to play scales in the difficulty order that you listed, then appeggio in the difficulty order you listed, then ditty in the difficulty order you listed, because it seems like they overlap by a bit - once you can play masterful scales, you're ready for something more than an offkey appeggio.
Ok, to put this in ugly graphical terms:
The way that I don't think it is (the song type determines the difficulty and the modifiers flex it slightly):
I..............scales...............I
++++++++++++++++++++++I...............appeggio.............I
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I..........ditty...........I
They way I think it is (the song type determines the base difficulty and the modfiers flex it well into the ranges of others:
I........................scales...............................I
++++++++I..........................appeggio.........................I
++++++++++++++++I........................ditty.............................I
Does this make any sense to anyone? Do you all take this to be obvious? Just want to see if what I think is true without doing all the work myself :)
E
MICHKAZ
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 01:03 PM CDT
I'm pretty certain you're correct Eades. I'm still working on some absolute numbers for that, and should have a pretty good idea in a week or so. I'm not going to do the whole range by any means: just enough to make sure I have an idea of what's going on.
~Micka
~Micka
HARTRB
Re: Experiment Results (Relative Mood Difficulties and Odd Song-Mood Combination
08/17/2006 02:32 PM CDT
You are quite correct. That is a result of there being only six results and loooooots of combinations. As far as the ranges... It would be a simple matter now that I have all of the results in my spreadsheet but there is no real usage since with only six results, there is no fine differentiation available and most of it would be really close. As well, by necessity, you would have to do it by instrument type (WIND, STRING, PERC). It is actually possible, due to varying song-mood combined difficulty, for a mood in one song to be harder than the same mood on a more difficult song (Try out... let me see... there is one. Lullaby is easier than March. However, a Wistful-Lullaby is actually HARDER than a Wistful-March).
In shorter terms, I have no intention of doing such a breakdown until I achieve enough data points for aboslute differentiation of relative difficulty. In other words... likely never. -g- Heck, I still cannot play anything harder than a Minuet on any instrument in any mood and not struggle. If anyone actually wants to do Eades' request, they are more than welcome to play with my compiled data file, however. -snicker-
-r
In shorter terms, I have no intention of doing such a breakdown until I achieve enough data points for aboslute differentiation of relative difficulty. In other words... likely never. -g- Heck, I still cannot play anything harder than a Minuet on any instrument in any mood and not struggle. If anyone actually wants to do Eades' request, they are more than welcome to play with my compiled data file, however. -snicker-
-r
HARTRB
Suggested Playing Advancement (Re: Experiment Results)
08/17/2006 02:47 PM CDT
Something that came up with Eades' question... what does that information mean? I actually considered it very obvious. -sheep- Base songs have an absolute difficulty. Scales are easier than Arpeggios are easier than Ditties are... etc. The difficulty ranges overlap due to the plus or minus forty (40) percent difficulty adjustment due to moods, however. The usefulness of the relative difficulties I posted is not a simple advancement. What it is, however, is the demonstration of a logical progression.
.
[...Scales...][...Arpeggios...][...Ditty...]
.
[...Scales with Moods...]
........[...Arpeggios with Moods...]
.....................[...Ditty with Moods...]
.
.
For instance, you are playing at a funeral or just in a sad mood and want to play a Lament. You begin "play lament solemn" but you find that it is too difficult for the results you want. You still want to play a Lament, however so you look at the relative difficulty and change to "play lament mournful", a song-mood combinaion in the next easier grouping. If it is still not what you want, you can try others in the same difficulty grouping, hoping for finer differentiation or go on down to Wistful.
LAMENT (Off Hal Wi [-- Sl Qt Pl Mo Ha Ro] [Lo Qk Fl So Ch] [Fi Ex Con] Mas)
.
.
As another example, you are training. It is the same thing. Personally, I do a cycle of four songs for my training regimen, starting with the hardest song where I can achieve a "slight difficulty" result without going to either Off-Key or Halting moods. (I haaate playing those two moods as a bard. -g-) Just shift up and down the relative difficulties until you find what you are looking for.
-r
.
[...Scales...][...Arpeggios...][...Ditty...]
.
[...Scales with Moods...]
........[...Arpeggios with Moods...]
.....................[...Ditty with Moods...]
.
.
For instance, you are playing at a funeral or just in a sad mood and want to play a Lament. You begin "play lament solemn" but you find that it is too difficult for the results you want. You still want to play a Lament, however so you look at the relative difficulty and change to "play lament mournful", a song-mood combinaion in the next easier grouping. If it is still not what you want, you can try others in the same difficulty grouping, hoping for finer differentiation or go on down to Wistful.
LAMENT (Off Hal Wi [-- Sl Qt Pl Mo Ha Ro] [Lo Qk Fl So Ch] [Fi Ex Con] Mas)
.
.
As another example, you are training. It is the same thing. Personally, I do a cycle of four songs for my training regimen, starting with the hardest song where I can achieve a "slight difficulty" result without going to either Off-Key or Halting moods. (I haaate playing those two moods as a bard. -g-) Just shift up and down the relative difficulties until you find what you are looking for.
-r
