As an explanation to the Lorekeeper idea...I'm imagining them something like the Lorethew, only on a grander scale that all races/governments recognize.

From the book 'Elothean Studies'...

Lorethew are revered among the Elothean people as scholars, sages, and wisemen and -women. They are given special treatment and often handed over free food, lodging, and the use of anything within the power of the Elothean who are within earshot of the Lorethew. Lorethew, when they become one of that Life Path, cease to be part of any House. Often asked for help in the judgment of a criminal or a civil dispute, Lorethew are both cursed and blessed with no attachments to anybody but themselves and other Lorethew.

Background

---

So I read the log of the meeting as well as what has been posted on the boards. There is a real quandry about how to make a lorekeeper pathway viable.

I dove back into some of the guild history and notes that are available to us. Then I used that along with what has been posted to brainstorm for a bit. I intentionally stayed away from the divisions mentioned in The Bardic Life. That book should probably be re-written.

I'm not going to post the entire thing but give a basic thought process to it. Issus, I love how you tied The Enchante Journals into your ideas. That was beautiful.

Raesh's Pathways:
- Songsworn
- Lorekeeper
- Performer

Issus' Pathways added:
- Magician - Order of Kalodi
- The Hidden Path - The Silent Song - Spies
- The Non-Path

The Non-Path
Raesh, I think yours would have the non-path in it as well as just a mechanic for those who don't choose a path to still advance along the paths. I might be wrong in that though.

The Hidden Path - The Silent Song - Spies
This path absolutely should exist based on guild history and I think I can make suggestions that allow it to exist without stepping on anyone's toes. So bear with me a bit.

Magician - Order of Kalodi
The Kalodi were actually a lore group - based in archeology, exploration, and gathering of artifacts for study. While I understand the desire for a magician pathway I think it can be handled in a different way that enhances the three paths that Raesh listed. There would not be a need for a magician pathway then.

Brainstorm

---

I started with the following:

>Raesh says, "I feel like I have a good idea of what a Lorekeeper "does" in the sense of the lore."

>Raesh asks, "What does a Lorekeeper do as a player?"

The Lorekeeper is the scholar, the teacher, the historian, the archeologist, the enchante researcher, the technician, the crafter, the scribe, the diplomat or ambassador and often, not always, the administrator. He has a good overall picture of the guild's status and goals. He may have been the Songsworn or the Performer previously or maybe not.

The problem is that lorekeeper is a conceptual path not supported by game mechanics due in part to the irrelevance of lore skills in general.

So how can it be relevant? I know it's relevant!

Mechanically, this is what we do.

- We still work combat and music skills. You can't be a bard without doing that.
- Our performances tend to be stories and songs meant to teach, tell history, share cultures, or memorialize.
- We learn all the scroll songs as "standard teaching songs" for the history and culture in them.
- We spend time in libraries reading just to read and learn.
- We'll get a bug to just go somewhere and wander while using recall and perceive history to find out anything we can.
- We'll also wander just to meet people and learn their cultures.
- We make an effort to keep lore skills moving hoping for them to be improved and made relevant.
- We study magic and enchantes.

Then I started thinking about magic and wondered if it really divided along pathway expertise. Because we all do magic and research magic. I could actually divide the enchantes along conceptual lines that fit with the various pathways. I won't bother this post with the division which is a little fuzzy but it divided out to roughly 9 for each path and went like this.

- Songsworns use enchantes and magic that have a direct affect on enemies in combat.
- Performers use enchantes and magic that uses sound or performance abilities to influence others. (Some of these work in combat situations.)
- Lorekeepers use enchantes and magic that enhance lores and magic, or manipulates elements directly to some desired effect. (Some of these work in combat situations.)

With magic sort of divided that way and everyone having a magical niche, there's no need for a magician's pathway and the lorekeeper's pathway is enhanced to be a bit more appealing. Besides, the division makes sense to me.

What about crafting? Well, crafting is another of those things that will be handled well through the mech split that is still being written. However, I easily see this as something that can split along pathways too. Forging and various weapon making skills would be along the songsworn path. Enchanting, scribing scrolls and books, alchemy would be along the lorekeeper path. Instrument making would be along the performer path. An enchante that enhances crafting would be lorekeeper though.

The Hidden Path would then draw on whatever talents it needed from the other paths to fill their rolls. The secret nature of that path would make it not violate any particular aversion one pathway might have for you to choose another after being initiated. This could make it a later pathway, by invitation only, when you reach a certain level along one pathway or a combination of levels along all three.

The desired skills would be in all three paths with the addition of stealth skills. Stealing would not be included since the sudden absence of an item can give away the fact that you were or are there. And while it would include assassins the skills used to assassinate would not be poison but would rely more on combat and bardic magic. This would distinguish it from anyone the thieves' guild might employ.

I would not call the bardic warrior path songsworn because to me Songsworn is a hard-earned title and I wouldn't want someone low on that path to be able to call themselves that.

Conclusion

---

I'm only going to dive into detail on the Lorekeeper pathway since that was the problem child.

Pathways
- Bardic Warrior (This can lead to the Songsworn title)
- Lorekeeper
- Performer
- The Hidden Path of the Silent Song (Add stealth enhancing feats to this)

For Lorekeeper:

Kalodi and the Order of Kalodi. Kalodi was a scholar, archeologist and historian whose pursuit of knowledge through the exploration of ancient ruins and ancient artifacts resulted in her loss of life. Joining could result in discovering a unique artifact from a dig. You would join in Crossing where there is a renown local academy and an archeological dig available. Initiation would be in the dig.

Feats could include:
- more extensive recalls and perceive histories
- an extra buff from Faenella's Grace and Aura of Tongues
- a boost to arcana that enables the study and use of scrolls or patterns for crafting and origami earlier
- attunement to enchantes that utilize manipulation of elements would enable the use of non-bardic elemental spells making them less likely to backfire (These are the scholars who work in conjunction with our sister warrior mage guild so their skills along these lines are enhanced.)
- ability to scribe scrolls, write books
- ability to handle bardic enchantment i.e. instrument sentience or imbueing bardic elemental magic into items
- a library of sound effects based in manipulation of the elements that would enhance story telling, especially historical story telling
- lower cost charisma, never saw a politician/diplomat who did not possess a commanding charismatic character

I realize these are things that may not be possible but it makes the lorekeeper pathway a bit more on par with the other pathways and may stimulate other ideas.

---

~Faih

While there have been some really good suggestions so far... I feel the need to reiterate once again:

When brain storming things feats could do they are mostly going to make you better at doing something you already can do, NOT let you do something you could note do at all before.

This is not to say the suggestions for new abilities, perks etc are not good - but would be more fitting for Bardic abilities as a whole.

Feats make the taco taste better. They don't make the taco.

-Raesh

>Are you saying spells like Frost Scythe and Fire Shard? They don't backfire because they are also elemental. At least it has never happened to me and I use them a lot.

>- Terra

I'd be the first to admit that I don't have a lot of experience with this. However, I also remember something I read with magic 3.0 about scrolls that do not belong to your guild being problematic even if it's the same mana type. I could be wrong though.

---

~Faih

It's not quite that clear cut.

Again - keep in mind all of this is in super early stages - the main reason we're having these discussions is to help a form cohesive plan.

Generally speaking - Moon Mage sects are a fairly good example of what I'm talking about when I say "Cosmetic bonuses". They have a few non cosmetic perks - and I'm not going to open the can of worms of trying to directly compare potency between those and bardic feats.

Lore wise - the two concepts (Sects and uh... pathways or whatever we end up calling them) are fairly different.

As for feats - let me try and take a slightly different approach, and use some examples from earlier in the thread (Without even attempting to judge them for actual balance, just conceptually.

Better fitting for Bards in general:
- more extensive recalls and perceive histories
- ability to handle bardic enchantment i.e. instrument sentience or imbueing bardic elemental magic into items

Outside of the scope of feats:
- access to ALL restricted areas
- a boost to arcana that enables the study and use of scrolls or patterns for crafting and origami earlier
- ability to scribe scrolls, write books
- lower cost charisma

About right:
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=20&category=21&topic=3&message=10952
(Without getting into the technical issues that might arise from some of those)
- better playact, better voice throws, better bluffs.
- an extra buff from Faenella's Grace and Aura of Tongues

-Raesh

Warrior*/*Songsworn*/*Dervish*/*Whatever
-Penalty for playing an instrument with armor on is reduced.
-Voice recovery time for screams reduced.
-Ability to SCREAM CONCUSSIVE <body part>
-Slight reflex bonus with BLUFF DODGE.
-Slight bonus to overcoming room resistance.

Performance
-Non magical songs which are PLAYed last for 2 more song pulses. (this feat can be taken up to 3 times)
-Receive a bonus to Musical Theory when PLAYing a non magical song.
-Enchantes loop once more before ending.
-Penalty for playing an instrument while it is dirty and/or damaged is reduced.
-Reduced RT for repairing and cleaning instruments.
-Charisma bonus for BLUFF AMAZE increased slightly and Discipline debuff reduced.
-PRACTICE BREATH/STRETCH duration is reduced.

Loremaster
-Enchante mana caps raised by 5 across the board.
-A message prompt 5ish minutes before bad weather comes so as to prevent instrument damage.
-RT for recalls are reduced.
-Slight skill bonus for whatever subject you're RECALLing. Ex: RECALLing a weapon would grant a slight skill bonus to whatever weapon skill that weapon is.
-Enchantes linger for a bit longer than usual.

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

Hey, not a bard player, but something that I've always felt was really missing from RECALL functionality for bards was the ability to get more information on RECALL (item). With the path thing being looked at now, maybe this is something that could be a Lorekeeper ability.

I know GMs have said in the past that there have been all sorts of unique/special items released, especially through random treasure drops, that have been junked because nobody ever picked them up at all. I think a large part of that is due to the relative inability of a player to quickly and reliably know when you've found the moth eaten green socks of goblin summoning and not just trash.

In addition to any neat history/lore attached to an item that the GMs have thrown on it, I've always thought it would be really great for bardic recalls to allow the bard to see any magic/enhanced/special properties an item has.

Any magic user can FOCUS on an item and see if it has an active spell pattern in it. That's great and all, but what about items with passive boosts? What about those invasion summoning items? Any special properties not covered under FOCUS, APPRAISE or STUDY could be revealed through RECALL. Maybe the app, study, focus, and additional history/properties even could all be bundled into the RECALL and save the RT for each assessment.

I'm trying to keep these suggestions tame but I fear that creativity is getting the better of me :(

Performance
-Additional minor slips.
**I don't see why Bards who specialize in stealth couldn't spend survival points in the Performance path to learn some of the other minor slips that Thieves know. Just extra fun slips on top of the ones we already have.
-Bonus to PLEADing INNOCENT.
-Substitutes the start-up messaging of our enchante with a generic enchante messaging
**This would allow us to keep the element of surprise.
-Bonus to disguising voice throws.

Warrior(Whoever mentioned they don't like Songsworn as the path name, I agree and would much rather it be a title linked to some kind of quest)
-Starting pulse mana for enchantes is reduced.
**This would make switching enchantes on the fly which usually happens in combat much more plausible. Actually, I would much rather prefer a verb that lets us segue into another enchante without having to STOP SING;SING <enchante>
-Whenever a lodged weapon returns to the Bard's hand via Resonance the wound of the victim is aggrivated.
-Bonus to fear affliction when performing fear inflicting enchantes.
-Stance point additions awarded at lower circle intervals similar to Warrior Mages.
-HUNT room distance increased by one.
-Access to the Songsworn quest/title.

Loremaster
-Subject and Teacher's learning rates act as if they are a member of the same guild.
-Subject and Teacher's learning rates act as if they are a of the same race.
-Albreda's Balm blankets the entire room in calm similar to Banner of Truce as long as the song remains in effect.
-Bonus Scholarship experience from STUDYing, RECALLing and READing(library books or otherwise which grant Scholarship exp).
-Spell scrolls not lost when you depart--only when you accidentally drop below your mana threshold.
**It's quite unfortunate when you can be the most responsible person in maintaining your required mana level in order to keep a spell scroll, but can be so easily insta-killed in combat by a critical strike.
-Roundtime associated with cambrinth reduced by a small amount.
-Roundtime associated with runestones reduced by a small amount.
-Backfire potential of spells of a non-elemental origin reduced slightly.


__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

Ok, finally back at home and able to group my thoughts together. The impression I'm getting of the non-cosmetic aspects of the paths reminds me of the skill trees in the game Borderlands: non of the perks you unlock are actually new abilities, they just enhance aspects of what you can do. I kind of kept those sorts of perks in mind when thinking up my suggestions/opinion, whatever. Also, there are some other ideas people have posted that I thought were really good ideas so I included them with this post :)

I'm going to use numbers that seem reasonable to me, but all told they're pretty arbitrary since I don't have as good a grasp on mechanics/plans/intentions as the GMs do. I avoided things that deal with mana and such because eventually everyone gets to a point where mana isn't much of an issue, and I'd rather not purchase something that eventually becomes useless.

---

The Warrior Path

Mojo Recovery Perk:
-There are five tiers of this perk. To gain maximum benefit, you would need to spend 5 points in this perk. Upon purchasing Tier 1, you would begin to gain mojo after ever solid+ hit. You would get .1% of the overall pool restored per hit. Purchasing additional points in this perk would raise that percentage to .2%, .3%, .4%, and a maximum of .5%

Mojo Maintenance Perk:
-There are five tiers to this perk. Each tier would cut down on how much mojo screams (and only sceams) drain per use. The discount would be 10-50% depending on how many points you've purchased. Since this would allow you, at maximum, to use 10 screams as opposed to the current 5 before running out of mojo, I think it'd be both useful and not OP.

Enchante Perks:
-Pyre gains impact damage in addition to the straight fire damage it currently deals.
-Higher chance of the Madmen "pink dragon" effect (note, this one would necessitate that particular effect being turned back on during the Magic 3.0 efforts. Here's hoping!)
-Bonus to the WvW contest of Aether Wolves
-Resonance does extra damage when lodged weapons return and also ditches the "must be second weapon in ranks" rule.
-Bonus to the WvW contest of Resolve.

Combat Perks:
-Boost to likelihood of Scream Defiance overcoming a stun.
-Boost to accuracy of thrown naphtha
-Stance point additions awarded at lower circle intervals similar to Warrior Mages.
-Targetable Scream Concussion
-Damage boost fighting anything flagged as a Dragon Priest (dunno if it's possible, but it'd be neat)

---

The Performer Path

Not being much of a performer IG, this path is a bit harder for me to think of things for. However, Raesh mentioned aiming them in more of a survival direction, so I built on that.

Mojo Recovery Perk:
-There are five tiers of this perk. Playing instruments or using practice (option) would grant more mojo than normal depending on how much of this perk you've purchased. You would get 10% of the overall pool restored per playthrough/practice. Purchasing additional points in this perk would raise that percentage to 20%, 30%, 40%, and a maximum of 50%

Mojo Maintenance Perk:
-Like the Warrior one, but applies to bluffs and whistle piercing instead
-Playact mojo drain could be worked down to zero using a tier system of 20%, 40%, etc. up to 100%. If someone is putting that many points in playact, I don't see why it shouldn't be a mojo-free ability. It is, after all, an RP tool and gives no mechanical advantage in the first place.

Enchante Perks:
-Something with Misdirection, but not lowering the threshold of remaining in hidden while singing (eventually, you'd get enough ranks of hiding anyway and those points will have been wasted.)
-Extended linger time for Drums of the Snake
-Ability to autoloop most enchantes (Really, everything aside from Resolve)

Other Perks:
-Other PCs that fail the charisma contest of Bluff Dead are unable to attack the bard when the bard is still in the pretend dead state, just like critters.
-Whistle Piercing has a chance to make critters leave the room
-A five tier perk that gradually gives the bard access to the 5 thief voice throws
-Bonus to pleading innocent to a crime
-Bonus to shop discounts

---

The Loremaster Path

Mojo Recovery Perk:
-Multiple tiers: Teaching a class restores Mojo over time, Listening to a class restores Mojo over time, Reading a book/compendium/spellbook restores some mojo on each study, appraising artwork or items restores some mojo (not creatures, though)

Mojo Level Boost:
-Overall mojo pool size can be increased by a factor of 5% up to a maximum of 25%

Enchante Perks:
-More effective Faenellas Grace
-Aura of Tongues allows for one to speak different languages temporarily
-Caress of the Sun can activate pyramids to dry herbs
-Damaris' Lullaby able to be sung

Other Perks:
-Teaching perks: Racial penalty removed for teaching/listening, Guild penalty removed for teaching/listening, Racial bonus given for teaching/listening, guild bonus given for teaching/listening
-Reduction in mana reserve restriction of scrolls, no auto-forgetting scrolls on depart
-Reduction in failure rates when performing crafting actions. This would be another 5 tier perk, but I can't really speculate on it too much since the new crafting system is still a mystery to me.
-Something something recalls



Like I said, I tried to avoid anything that eventually becomes a moot point (mana issues, needing more Arcana to read scrolls or more scholarship to perc history successfully). I really like the idea of having many, many perks that add up with dedication and focus. I think plenty of Bards can agree that having nothing more to work towards due to the limited number of enchantes sucks, so having a lot of perks to allow for a long span where you have the next goal in sight is a good thing.

I'm sure I had some other thoughts that I left out, so I'll post those if they return to me, but that's the gist.

-=Issu=-

Hmmm... I don't really know where you're getting 20,000. At .5% per solid+ hit, two hits would restore a sum of 1% of the total. So, 200 hits total to get back to 100% from complete depletion. Since Screams seem to use about 20% of our mojo currently, that'd be about 40 solid+ hits to recover from a scream. I figured that'd be enough where we could actually use screams and recover them in combat in a reasonable amount of time, and even quicker if you put points into the mojo cost reduction for screams.


-=Issus=-

Gotcha. Thanks for the added input, Raesh! I'll keep the feat limit and avoidance of enchantes in mind should I come up with more thoughts to post. We really appreciate the feedback! :D


-=Issus=-

I think we should have a Prankster Path. I also like the other paths I've seen and I believe we should have 6 or more paths to provide unique versitality to the guild.

Merriment and laughter is the goal of those who follow this path, bringing fun and cheer in the form of entertainment is the ultimate goal of bards who follow this path.

The path is maintained by a loose association of bards, many of them are Inn Keepers, Tavern Keepers or halflings. No greater reward is but a smile and laugh but touched the lips of one who has been cheered by this path.

<b>Smile Tipping</b>
People who are genuinely cheered may tip smile to bard. This gives those following the Prankster Path a quick, small charge to mojo, which is the essential base of their strength.

Pranksters are given a unique silent ability to collect smile tips from specific audience members, that are enjoying the performance.

<b>More Bluffs</b>
A bard may bluff, but a Prankster does it best.
Bluff Diplomacy Aggresive - enables a prankster to terrify creatures with at least 10 charisma points lower than her into fleeing combat. Pretty much it forces all critters to appraise the bard, based on charisma determine she is a terrifying opponent and that they want to flee.
Bluff Diplomacy Ally - Targetted at a specific creature, convinces that creature it is an ally.

Bluff Leadership (self/group) - You shout words over combat calling upon Nissa and Lanival for the their blessing. Officially this ability does nothing. However if party members believe your bluff, you inspire them and their own guild-specific abilities become maximized. A paladin's soul becomes pristine, an empath is able to ignore her injuries and heal others, a barbarian's fire is restored to full, a thief's khri is restored to full, Ranger's fully regain their nature ability.


<b>Guild Bluffs</b>
Bluff Guild Barbarian - Done specifically, for a brief moment you mimic the lowest Barbarian dance start precisely.
Bluff Guild Cleric - Done specifically, for a brief moment you mimic the cleric spell prep.
Bluff Guild Empath - Done specifically, for a brief moment you breath in and out like an empath.
Bluff Guild Thief - Done specifically, for a brief moment you appear to be repairing a lockpick.
Bluff Guild Moon - Done specifically, for a brief moment you raise your arms skyward chanting.
Bluff Guild Necromancer - Done specifically, you cut your hand. This could be dangerous, if done around other players you may be accused of necromancy!
But what better cover for a bard than to be thought something else entirely?
Bluff Guild Trader - Done in the trader stalls, allows you to rent a caravan of your own and lead it around.
Bluff Guild Novice - Done in the guildhall of any of the guilds you appear to be a simple novice in dress and appearance. Your normal clothing is hidden.
Bluff Guild Commoner - You appear to be an unguilded commoner. You have a simple pack and a few noob items by appearance.

Now obviously it would be more believable if you were able to dress the part, dressing up is up to the individual bard.

All of the Guild Bluffs will temporarily remove your title and replace it with a title from the guild your mimicing, Prankster Sircha would suddenly become Empath Sircha, or Moon Mage Sircha when walking around. This allows you to do any number of things with the roleplaying tools you already have.

<b>Pranking</b>
Any good prankster can pull off a good prank, with a little assistance.

Once you think of your prank, go to a private room with no one around. Assist Request Prank to talk to a GM. You may only use this unique ability once a month. If you've already used yours for the month, you'll be told not to bother GM's about non-serious matters. Prank requests are always put at the end of all Assist Request Ques.

GM's may use their own powers to Refill Prank <player> <message> Which is a single use message, that goes to the entire room the Prankster is in. The Prankster may use that message that day or hold onto it until they want to use it.

Once a message is used it is gone, and the timer resets only each time a message is refilled. The higher the bard's circle, the more Prank messages they can gain each month for a maximum of ten.

A Prankster may check their stored messages by using the verb Prank check, which lists their stored prank messages 1-10. To use a prank message, they choose Prank message #

<b>Prankster's Trunk of Tricks</b>
A Prankster's trunk is stored in an extradimensional space that is always accessable to the bard that uses it. It only requires the bard cast a aether rift between worlds to store his/her props in. All Pranksters have access to the same rift, but each prankster is only able to use the trunk with his or her name on it and pull that item out through the rift.
The trunk does have some serious limitations. Bard

Props placed within the trunk may not weigh more than 10 stones each. Additional restrictions: may not be designated as herb, instrument, skins, pelts, weapons, drinks, food, may not be designated as graverobbed. Bags placed within the Trunk of Tricks must be emptied first.

Things you MAY include: Beards, small trinkets (baubles, trinkets, pins, anything worn EXCEPT bundles, worn containers, jewelry, clothing (if it has pockets it must be empty), bags (they must be emptied first!), tannery-made items including (empty) bags, pouches, belts, as long as they arn't weapon sheathes, harnesses, or straps, dolls, perfume, cosmetics, hair-worn items, such as hair beads, feathers, mirrors, boots, shoes, journals (empty), erasers, inkwells, quills.

A trunk may carry as many as 1,000 props for a bard in prime, with 500 extra if they are premium and 2,000 if they are in plat.

If possible I would suggest the file holding the trunks be something that saves and closes after the aether rift is closed, and is not counted again until it is re-opened by the bard.


This makes it easier for a bard to maintain a healthy inventory, while not being overwhelmed by carrying around 200 props, necessary to pull a really good prank.

I <3 Bleach. ~Sircha

>>which are the three paths: Song Sworn, Tale Weaver and Lore Keeper.

- Terra

> and entertainers just seem to be the major things that bards do.

hmm, I did sort of think while I was writing it up that maybe Prankster stuff belonged in Performance path, however from what I've seen so far, the Heritage paths seem to be very limited in scope.

Smile Tipping, Bluff Leadership, The trunk and guild bluffs could certainly be tossed in as good performance path feats.


I <3 Bleach. ~Sircha

>>Voice rewrite

?

__
~Leilond
http://www.elanthipedia.com/wiki/Leilond
http://soundsoftime.bravehost.com

I could be wrong, but I think you're right Ysselt.


- Terra

Could someone recap the ideas that this rewrite on vocals (I am assuming this is different then the music skill is coming back, at least I thought all the instruments were getting lumped together).


_____________________________________
Victory Over Lyras, on the 397th year and 156 days since the Victory of Lanival the Redeemer.

GENT is correct.

The only place vocals skill enters into it is as a control for how much the Bard can flex their voice into different ranges.

-Raesh

Hmm, let's see which path will I take?

Oh Performance, of course! grins

Just a suggestion: perhaps the amount of time spent on a stage can accrue some type of skill learning, such as vocals.

My Players work hard every month on the performances and while they do get tips every so often, to be able to increase a skill such as Vocals for their efforts would be much appreciated!

XXXXXX: gosh the world is about to end....two of you at once?

XXXXXX:

* Court Playwright Chabelle D'Jhue joins the adventure.
>
* Court Playwright Chabelle D'Jhue joins the adventure.