"This Bard is wise in the way of battle. Many people believe that Bards know nothing about fighting and such, but little do they know that all Bards have a bit of the Warrior in them. Fraught with a violent history, Bards have learned the ways of weapons in order to save themselves from persecution; the Warrior Bard takes this a step further and thrives on it. When she does stop hunting long enough for an ale and a song or two, her music is ripe with tales of battle, and the heroes that war has made."
From the Bardic Life, by Tanella BrandiWillow.
I was reading through some of the in-game Bard lore as part of my preparation for the third incarnation of Lupdels, and I often start back at the Bardic Life for grounding some of the common Elanthian views of Bards. This passage rubbed me the wrong way given how much the Bard Guild has changed prior to me leaving back in 2012, and the direction it seems to be going. I don't usually like to complain, but just wanted to throw this out there.
This passage makes it seem that Bardic skills in fighting may take some people by surprise, and has to justify why Bards have focused on combat skills. But a glance at the Guild's circle requirements and abilities clearly shows that Bards are a combat guild. It's hard to isolate "pure" non-magical, non-supernatural fighting abilities, and I am not meaning to spark a guild versus guild discussion, but my general glance at the Guilds puts Bards 4th or 5th when it comes to "normal," unassisted combat.
Instead of being the "jack of all trades" image I've sometimes seen Bards portrayed as, we seem like a "lore-primary combat Guild," for lack of a better, catchier phrase. If the Trader magic system ever comes live, Traders seem more like "jack of all trades."*
Anyone have a better phrase than "lore-primary combat Guild?"
The most challenging area for Bards, an area that hasn't been developed and explore, is that aside from Tactics (which I'm still very thankful for) there's little overlap between being lore-primary and being a combat Guild. In spirit, half the Guild is about fighting. The other half is about lore. Magic is in there too of course. It's a lot of overlapping Venn diagrams, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees.
*But maybe it's all relative. Bards are "jack of all trades" compared to more specialized, less sword and shield non-combat Guilds like Empaths and Moon Mages, and more generalists than the generally non-magical (but at times supernatural) Barbarians and Thieves.
~~
Lupdels
"Bards are widely regarded as excellent storytellers, but terrible cosmologists." - Armifer
LHFERREE1
BLAYD
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 12:45 AM CST
I like to think of my Bard as a fighting support role. We have combat skills, and also many spells that help ourselves and others with boosts. For me training a lot of weapons is fun, and fits with my "dagger in every boot" kind of character.
ELRIIC
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 06:43 AM CST
Bards are interesting... When you compare it to Warrior mages for example, you guys actually aren't very far off.
Warrior Mages are magic prime, weapons/lore secondary, armor/survivals (@#$#@$#@$#@$@$) tert whereas you guys are the same, with lore and magic flipped. You're still weapons secondary and magic secondary with a lot of really good support spells. Both of my scroll slots are currently filled with bard spells as an example of how I feel about bard magic.
I wouldn't say you have to be pigeon-holed into a support role. I WILL SAY, trade mercilessly on the fact that you use Elemental mana and get yourself some of our TM spells. If you do that, you'll find yourselves in a very enviable position combat wise.
*Background note for the recently returned guy: Bards cast elemental magic spells memorized from scrolls as if they were native spells, not as sorcery.
Warrior Mages are magic prime, weapons/lore secondary, armor/survivals (@#$#@$#@$#@$@$) tert whereas you guys are the same, with lore and magic flipped. You're still weapons secondary and magic secondary with a lot of really good support spells. Both of my scroll slots are currently filled with bard spells as an example of how I feel about bard magic.
I wouldn't say you have to be pigeon-holed into a support role. I WILL SAY, trade mercilessly on the fact that you use Elemental mana and get yourself some of our TM spells. If you do that, you'll find yourselves in a very enviable position combat wise.
*Background note for the recently returned guy: Bards cast elemental magic spells memorized from scrolls as if they were native spells, not as sorcery.
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 08:35 AM CST
>Both of my scroll slots are currently filled with bard spells as an example of how I feel about bard magic.
Which ones have you picked up?
~~
Lupdels
"Bards are widely regarded as excellent storytellers, but terrible cosmologists." - Armifer
Which ones have you picked up?
~~
Lupdels
"Bards are widely regarded as excellent storytellers, but terrible cosmologists." - Armifer
ILLIENA
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 10:24 AM CST
>Both of my scroll slots are currently filled with bard spells as an example of how I feel about bard magic.
This would be an interesting thing to survey. As a bard, both of mine are filled with cleric spells (MPP and Bless).
This would be an interesting thing to survey. As a bard, both of mine are filled with cleric spells (MPP and Bless).
ABSOLON
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 11:41 AM CST
<<This would be an interesting thing to survey. As a bard, both of mine are filled with cleric spells (MPP and Bless).
tl;dr version: I currently use MaF and Instinct in my two scroll slots.
long version:
(This is from a Moon Mage perspective, so much of the reasoning doesn't apply to other guilds due to the abilities we get.)
I choose to forgo permanently memorizing Analogous Patterns spells and use one of my slots exclusively for them in order to save some spell slots because Moon Mages have more stuff to buy than they have slots. This works because of Unleash and the fact that AP spell scrolls are cheap. I primarily keep MaF temporarily memorized, but since AP scrolls are cheap to buy I switch it out when I need to make realtively extended use of a different one like Lay Ward for example. Or I just Unleash an AP scroll if I only need a cast or two every so often like with GaF or Seal.
I currently reserve the second slot for a Sorcery training spell. I don't bother with caring about the effect or which spell specifically, since specific spells are a pain to locate and they'll eventually be lost anyway. Caring about the actual spell in that slot is just setting myself up for disappointment when it goes poof. Currently I have Instinct memorized, which is completely pointless effect-wise because I can get the same buff with greater effect using a native spell. I am using it because I happened to have one and it has a relatively low backlash rate despite being middle of the road difficulty with respect to mana-type due to it being Intro.
I'm also seriously considering using the second slot as another dedicated AP spell slot or even dropping the second slot entirely to save yet another spell slot or two on the Magical Theorist and/or Improved Memory feats and just using my currently permanently memorized Tezirah's Veil in combat to train sorcery instead. The only thing stopping that from happening right now is teleologic corruption, and even then it's only not knowing if the corruption affects prediction tool bonding rates or not. If it doesn't then I would drop the second scroll slot and both of the spell slots spent on it in a heartbeat.
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tl;dr version: I currently use MaF and Instinct in my two scroll slots.
long version:
(This is from a Moon Mage perspective, so much of the reasoning doesn't apply to other guilds due to the abilities we get.)
I choose to forgo permanently memorizing Analogous Patterns spells and use one of my slots exclusively for them in order to save some spell slots because Moon Mages have more stuff to buy than they have slots. This works because of Unleash and the fact that AP spell scrolls are cheap. I primarily keep MaF temporarily memorized, but since AP scrolls are cheap to buy I switch it out when I need to make realtively extended use of a different one like Lay Ward for example. Or I just Unleash an AP scroll if I only need a cast or two every so often like with GaF or Seal.
I currently reserve the second slot for a Sorcery training spell. I don't bother with caring about the effect or which spell specifically, since specific spells are a pain to locate and they'll eventually be lost anyway. Caring about the actual spell in that slot is just setting myself up for disappointment when it goes poof. Currently I have Instinct memorized, which is completely pointless effect-wise because I can get the same buff with greater effect using a native spell. I am using it because I happened to have one and it has a relatively low backlash rate despite being middle of the road difficulty with respect to mana-type due to it being Intro.
I'm also seriously considering using the second slot as another dedicated AP spell slot or even dropping the second slot entirely to save yet another spell slot or two on the Magical Theorist and/or Improved Memory feats and just using my currently permanently memorized Tezirah's Veil in combat to train sorcery instead. The only thing stopping that from happening right now is teleologic corruption, and even then it's only not knowing if the corruption affects prediction tool bonding rates or not. If it doesn't then I would drop the second scroll slot and both of the spell slots spent on it in a heartbeat.
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ELRIIC
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 08:10 PM CST
I use Echoes of Aether and Whispers of the Muse. When I next lose WoTM, I'll probably switch to RAGE. I stock all 3 extensively.
LHFERREE1
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 08:43 PM CST
>I currently reserve the second slot for a Sorcery training spell. I don't bother with caring about the effect or which spell specifically, since specific spells are a pain to locate and they'll eventually be lost anyway. Caring about the actual spell in that slot is just setting myself up for disappointment when it goes poof. Currently I have Instinct memorized, which is completely pointless effect-wise because I can get the same buff with greater effect using a native spell. I am using it because I happened to have one and it has a relatively low backlash rate despite being middle of the road difficulty with respect to mana-type due to it being Intro.
What's your strategy for training Sorcery? Do you focus only on the spells within the mana realm with the lowest backlash rate, or do you find that you need to train some of the more dangerous spells at lower levels of mana prep in order to keep Sorcery moving?
~~
Lupdels
"Bards are widely regarded as excellent storytellers, but terrible cosmologists." - Armifer
What's your strategy for training Sorcery? Do you focus only on the spells within the mana realm with the lowest backlash rate, or do you find that you need to train some of the more dangerous spells at lower levels of mana prep in order to keep Sorcery moving?
~~
Lupdels
"Bards are widely regarded as excellent storytellers, but terrible cosmologists." - Armifer
ABSOLON
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 09:13 PM CST
I don't really have or need a strategy yet, because I've been lax about training Sorcery and it is far behind my other magics. (Not in game at the moment to get exact numbers but Primary Magic is ~580 and Sorcery is ~240.) I'm not having any issues locking in about 450 seconds casting Instinct near my personal cap which is only adding 5 mana through cambrinth and 8 through held over the min prep. I typically get about 1 or 2 minor backlashes (at most a single limb destroyed, usually the skills debuff) in that time. My personal cap is about 5 mana higher, but I cast a bit lower to account for the almost inevitable skill debuff.
That said, I have noticed that whether a spell is basic, advanced, or esoteric plays a large role in the severity and frequency of backfiring so I do prefer basic/intro spells if I have a choice. Mana type doesn't seem to be as big a concern, but that's just subjective observation not empirical. Once I get more ranks I'll probably need to start using more difficult spells but at 240 ranks an intro spell works fine.
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That said, I have noticed that whether a spell is basic, advanced, or esoteric plays a large role in the severity and frequency of backfiring so I do prefer basic/intro spells if I have a choice. Mana type doesn't seem to be as big a concern, but that's just subjective observation not empirical. Once I get more ranks I'll probably need to start using more difficult spells but at 240 ranks an intro spell works fine.
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ABSOLON
Re: Lore-Primary Combat Guild
12/29/2014 09:40 PM CST
Oh, and before you ask (or worse assume incorrectly)... the amount of mana put into a spell doesn't affect backfire rates, just the spell tier amd mana type. And maybe specific spell modifiers if those happen to exist. I.e. always cast sorcery spells near cap to maximize learning because it doesn't impact the backlash chance at all.
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