This is intended. It's part of the recent updates to Teaching. This is the relevant change:

>>Teaching in Combat has been overhauled. Anyone can now teach the following skills in combat: All weapon skills, all armor skills, targetted magic, debilitation, warding, evasion, and tactics. In addition Barbarians, Paladins and Thieves can teach their respective guild skills in combat. The rate of learning will depend on the lore skill set placement of the teacher (ie: Empaths/Traders/Bards can teach in combat far better than Barbarians and Rangers).

Is this a nerf for Bards (And other guilds to some degree)? Yes. Combat is already by far the most efficient source of training per unit of time. Stacking additional skills into is is not something we want to encourage, but we also desired not remove combat teaching entirely and to modernize the skill list available which was, frankly, rather random and hadn't been updated since pre 3.0.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

> Stacking additional skills into is is not something we want to encourage

So I suppose we aren't going to get a meta spell for FAE allowing us to teach non-combat skills in combat again?

Do the gm's take into account the countless hours and even YEARS we spend building these characters. How is it reasonable that some of us have spent YEARS and countless dollars to build characters that can "do something" to have it stripped away on the whim of a gm who does not like it. What is next? Tomorrow barbs can't forge? It would be nice to know that the core mechanics of what we build in a character, stay there. This change absolutely destroys bards.

The change was intended.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

>So I suppose we aren't going to get a meta spell for FAE allowing us to teach non-combat skills in combat again?

That would be a cool add back and a neat consideration to take into account for combat cyclic choice!

>Kind of unrelated, but this is one of the reasons I don't want bards to become the "we buff other people" guild. When there are nerfs across the board, bards lose out twice. First the direct and then the indirect.

Eh, I disagree - encouraging more people to hunt in groups is a good thing, I feel. Making it easier to do so, and incentivizing doing so is a good thing. I'm not sure what the best way of going about it is, however, because most of the time people just hunt in something that's safe, and they need to spend dozens of hours to be able to move up to the next critter. Exp drain is the bottleneck.

> Eh, I disagree - encouraging more people to hunt in groups is a good thing, I feel. Making it easier to do so, and incentivizing doing so is a good thing. I'm not sure what the best way of going about it is, however, because most of the time people just hunt in something that's safe, and they need to spend dozens of hours to be able to move up to the next critter. Exp drain is the bottleneck.

Let's speak practically for a second. Group hunting has never really worked on this game. It's a scrollish mess, makes things more difficult to target skills, and puts the weaker of the two at risk, and limits training of the higher of the two. Then you have the social problems such as who gets the boxes, who gets the rare treasures, and what's the protocol for mass murdering mobs (maybe someone wanted to work defenses).

Great idea on paper, but bad idea in practice.

The real danger comes in things like this. Group hunting with a bard had a perk. It boosted learning (primarily for the non-bard) due to the bard ability. The bard perk was heavily nerfed to indirectly nerf non-bards.

I want to make my life easier and give me the option of making other's lives easier. If my option is to primarily improve the QOL of others then I'm going to be nerfed when THEY have things too easily. That's not a good position to be in.

>>I don't think you should, but I'm still annoyed at losing one of our few perks.

And that's understandable and a reasonable point of view.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

While its an ugly truth for some to realize...

What portion of the PAID accounts are used to support mule characters. I'll keep my pure speculative guess to myself. However, many people have spent years building these mule characters due to the active player base, or lack thereof. I'm all for the recent changes that promote growth and more players back to the game. But taking away an ability from a guild that already has so little just to nerf some mules is beyond reasonable.

I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning behind removing this ability. And the only thing I have seen that even comes close to an answer is that we learn too much in combat already.
Was it absolutely imperative that this ability be removed to implement the new teaching system changes? Because it sure doesn't feel like it.

So it would be ok to...

Remove Moon Gate for Moon Mages because too many people have Moon Mage mules to gate to the islands to circumvent public and or private travel when available.
Remove Thieves ability to pick boxes well because too many people have Thief mules to pick their boxes.
Remove Traders ability to have shops because too many people have Trader mules to sell pouches, bundles, and take up all the good shops in the crossing market but never log in.
Remove Clerics ability to Raise since too many people have Cleric mules to raise their toons.
and the best yet...
Remove Empaths ability to Heal since too many people have Empath mules to heal their toons....



Yeah yeah.. dramatic, over emotional drama queen? I got it. We lost a 20 year guild ability to slow down exp gain.....

Let me be clear:

Mules had nothing to do with this decisions. None. Nadda. Zip. Zero. Zilch.

Do I regret that this change inconvenienced mules? Not even a little bit.

-Raesh

"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose

Flat out...


What was the reasoning and criteria behind removing a Bards unique ability to teach a vast array of skills during combat?

> What was the reasoning and criteria behind removing a Bards unique ability to teach a vast array of skills during combat?

A combination of wanting to even out the teaching bonus between lore prime guilds and wanting to make combat less of a gold mine for all things experience.

If all mules close thier accounts tomorrow. The lights go out. Maybe you need to be a bit more considerate.

That is a great idea. If a bard has 300 in a skill and maybe 600 scholar, he can teach it in combat. I will agree that working for it isnt a problem. It also sort of grandfathers those that spend thousands of hours (and dollare) raising their bards to do this. This idea that some characters are less valued by simu management than others, is quite frightening. It really is unfortunate.

Heya. Lilwea here.
I main a bard. No game, pen and paper or otherwise did Bards as well as Dragon Realms.

My wanting to play a bard goes back to the Lloyd Alexander Prydain books. In those books, Bards were the greatest teachers and repositories of knowedge in the land. I really thought DragonRealms nailed it when they gave them the ability to teach... Pretty much with armaggeddon going on. In the midst of combat, there is a bard, singing and teaching and throwing down.

I am sure there were alt accounts that used bards as 'mules'. You pay to play right? It's potentially a pretty big advantage to have someone training you in combat.

As a 22 year veteran of the Armed Forces. I promise you. Combat is where you learn the MOST.

Sorry I am all over the place in this post. I will get to the gyst of it.

This isn't going to be the hill I die on. Am I going to feel the nerf? Probably. By nature Bards tend to be social animals. And while we can throw cool buffs... the way I always saw it.. you don't take a Bard into combat just for the buffs with your party. They provide a valuable mechanic to keep skills rolling that otherwise would not.

This is a big thing to lose. I am not going to quit over it. I doubt you even lose a single high circle bard over it. But for some, it's definitely another nail, you know what I am saying? And I make no judgements or personal attacks, but the tone of the argument for removing this ability SOUNDS draconian. Especially after the Game Leadership conceded it was a nerf.

I hope it comes back. because honestly, as a platinum subscriber, this kind of hit me as a blind side. I am not the highest circle bard in the game. But I know Lilwea is up there. And today was the first time I heard of a change to a bards core abilties.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

I was a sad little grey gnome before the change, by the way. Thats why you call me Harlequin Lilwea.

If I listed which of my abilities I liked the most, number one would have been that I could give a class on basket weaving while fighting off a wave of dragon priests from burning the bard guild hall down. Teaching anything in any situation was not an overpowered ability in my opinion. It just made sense, at least to me, for the class as it's 'big thing' mechanic.

I am glad I rolled a bard. Its what I wanted to play. But there are people probably asking now what makes us special. I firmly believe that in a role playing game.... every class needs one thing that sets them apart. I feel like this was our thing. I pay to play. And I don't think it is unreasonable to ask 'okay. you took what I am not alone in thinking was our 'bard' thing. What are we getting to replace it? We can't rezz. We can't take wounds. We can't backstab, we can't snipe or fast travel. I am not trolling. I would just be very interested in hearing what 'our bard thing' is going to be now.

And again.

I main a bard. I am not a mule.

Lilwea

No sarcasm. It was my favorite thing about the class. I am not alone in liking it. Just.. the friendships that have sprouted up between interactions from a bard entering a hunting area and teaching in a room full of people are enough to give me a big warm and fuzzy. I thought it was a cool ability for a class that traces it roots back to the father of Merlin in Arthurian legends. While we are musical jedi, what makes a jedi cool isn't throughing the force around. Its the fact they were the guardians and protectors of a more civlized age. I main a bard mate. I didn't roll one because I wanted to throw down with my wicked guitar skills on a kobold. I rolled them because they were basically the greatest teachers.

Anyway. Sad Grey Gnome is tired. have a good night.

Lilwea

This is all a bit much right? I mean the Bard guild is by far the most under-rated guild for everything. They can put out an enormous amount of damage from multiple sources all at once. They have arguably the best crafting buff, while also having some of the best crafting perks (Lore prime). They are the easiest, and most fun, magic using guild I have played in 3.1, too. I don't get the "Bards have nothing" posts at all. Bards are one of the most OP guilds after Clerics, the old players just haven't figured this out yet.

>>What exactly is OP about the bard? I'm genuinely curious.

Combat: They can use Pyre, BoS, and weapons at the same time. Noopin is a good example of the damage/debilitation a Bard can put out. I don't know how many ranks my Thief outranks him, but it's by a few hundred. Last time we sparred (been awhile) all I could do was just laugh as he disabled and destroyed my character. His use of Pyre/BoS with LX/LT in offhand with debilitations is ridiculous, and very hard to overcome.

Bard's have a spell/tool to deal with just about every situation, and can deal so many different damage types it's not funny (multiple elemental and physical types + spirit damage).

Crafting: As I said, best crafting buff + best skillset placement to learn and get the most techs in multiple disciplines (2 careers, 1 hobby)

Magic: I have played at least all the MU guilds to circle 10 in 3.1, and I've enjoyed training/playing the Bard the most because of how easy it is for them to train effectively. There is a cyclic + single cast for just about every spell type. You have cyclic and single cast TM, debil, warding, and all their combat buffs are single cast so you don't have to make choices about what to buff because it is a cyclic spell. On top of that the spells do a variety of different things at once.


I realize players find different things interesting about the game, and personally I like combat/PvP and crafting. This guild has all that, and does it better than most other guilds. Clerics are called OP because of their combat heavy, and very useful utility, spellbook makes them powerhouses in PvP, but in my experience aren't that fun to play day to day. On the other hand I find Bards to have a strong advantage in all areas of the game, not just PvP, and are actually fun to play. I don't see how losing the ability to teach a handful of skills in certain situations is such a loss to the guild to make them useless.

> They can use Pyre, BoS, and weapons at the same time.

Cleric: Soul Attrition + chill spirit + horn + weapons + halo charge. Oh, and add a +damage taken debuff.

Warrior Mage: Rain of fire + ignited weapons + BG + wide variety of single target spells for every situation.

Moon Mages: TKS + TKT or Burn (DFA) + cyclic of choice (SLS or pulsing invis) + weapons.

Necro: Solvent + Magical snipe + weapons. Oh, and add another +damage taken debuff + pet attacks.

> Crafting: As I said, best crafting buff + best skillset placement to learn and get the most techs in multiple disciplines (2 careers, 1 hobby)

Muse is equally castable by warrior mages due to being non-signature, is not limited to just the bard, and won't affect cross discipline abilities. (All of your careers and hobby had better be in the same skillset or you're not buffing them without sorcery).

> His use of Pyre/BoS with LX/LT in offhand with debilitations is ridiculous, and very hard to overcome.

Couldn't you just hide on him? It's not like his tertiary perception should be much of a match against your primary hiding + evasion + backstab + disablers of your own.

> I've enjoyed training/playing the Bard the most because of how easy it is for them to train effectively

I disagree. Symbiosis is how I train augmentation and warding while a cyclic is running. Other magic guilds can do the same, with more mana due to buffs and feats (better learning), and with a much stronger ability to stack buffs.

> On top of that the spells do a variety of different things at once.

That was severely nerfed. Now spells do only 2-3 things each, and most can't be stacked.

> I find Bards to have a strong advantage in all areas of the game, not just PvP, and are actually fun to play.

I don't think you can say they're overpowered because you personally enjoy them.

> I don't see how losing the ability to teach a handful of skills in certain situations is such a loss to the guild to make them useless.

Okay. That's not really what we're talking about though, and I don't think anyone even hinted that this made them "useless".

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Don't get me wrong. I like the guild. I like the strong points. I like the combination. I like the features, but I do not see how you can call them over powered.