I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about? By 'right hand side' do you mean 'right of the / mark'? I thought that was just showing where our passive IF recovery point was?

That's what I thought you meant - if I'm not using berserks, I notice IF filling past the passive point frequently. I presumed that's what Roars and Berserks were for consuming? Though I agree, it would be neat if there was more interplay with IF!

I'll have to do some testing, but the last time I had a full bar... I don't remember. I think I was severely backtraining and using hardly any abilities, but it still took quite a bit of time to fill. I know the theoretical concept behind it, but it just is cumbersome, because it drains back to the passive point. Hypothetical scenario: you decide to go to the Wyvern trials one night. Before you go, you spend a significant amount of time filling your IF bar up. By the time you get to your fight, that excess is not going to be there to tap into.

At this point, I get how this existing system works... all the way. I haven't commented much on it, because I knew we were not in your sights for that time being. Now that we're on the horizon, I wanted to get a dialogue going, because in the meantime, the majority of us are just making the current system work until something more exciting/dynamic is released.

>>Do you just not have enough abilities that would support such a tactic?

In my opinion, barbs are lacking oomph. I know I am not the only one who shares this opinion, but I guess the others will have to speak up if they want to be represented. This is not a series of complaints, but rather a desire for some more enhancements. Some things we are sorely lacking are:

*DFA type of attacks. Other guilds have this... with their weapons even, yet we do not. That seems rather odd for the weapons primary guild. It's pretty hard to be balanced when you don't even have a critical attack option that other guilds have.

*More advanced maneuvers with weapons than other guilds can get. We need something to make up for our lack of actual magic to balance out things. A couple ideas:

*An IF battery: you fill portions of your IF bar beyond the passive regen cap and can store them until you hit a "full point." Once full, you can activate the battery (whenever you want) and fill your IF to 100% and then it behaves as normal, with standard drain rate. This could come in handy in a pinch. I have no idea how the favor orb system is written, but I can imagine this being similar in concept. "Rub" it until it is full, then cash it in when you want.

*More potent maneuvers that are barbarian-specific and DFA. Maybe one that skips shield and one that skips evasion. Made up examples: maneuver penetrate (ignores shield), maneuver dominate (ignores evasion). Give them the appropriate cooldowns.

*Something that puts us to melee instantly.

*In general: put an end to teleporting to missile.

*Having to complete analyzed expertise combos is okay for PvE, but much too cumbersome for PvP. We need things that are more instantaneous.

Further thoughts:

It would also be nice to be awarded IF for actually causing damage, not just killing. If our system is so heavily hinged on inflicting damage to our enemies, it would be nice to have a little more in ways of options to do so.

Perhaps expertise can be expanded to fuel the DFA maneuvers, etc. Just some thoughts.

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

>>In my opinion, barbs are lacking oomph.

I really have no part in the IF discussion, but I did want to comment on this. I do agree that Barbs lack some oomph. They are not weak by any means, and seem to have a good selection of abilities, but it just seems they lack that combo of abilities that can turn a fight in their direction.

I know when it comes to PvP I won't bat my eye at taking on a Barb, and probably wouldn't even take my time to fully buff and prepare myself if I know they don't grossly outclass me. On the other hand I would think twice about attacking a Cleric or War Mage, and definitely take my time to prepare. Maybe this is because those guilds (including Thieves) have some over powered combos/abilities, or maybe it's because Barbs lack them. The funny thing is I would rather PvP Clerics/Warmies because those scary abilities makes it much more interesting than just who can chop who the fastest.

I'm not really sure what would help Barbs be more potent in PvP, but I just wanted to give an outside perspective on it.

Just for the record, damage fuels IF in PvP. Kills fuel IF in PvE. I made that change a while back to help with some of the complaints folks were having. So shooting a thief in the eyeball with an arrow, would give you some IF back :P

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>First, you'd have to find them in hiding. Second, you'd have to shoot them before they ambush/snipe you.



First, you'd have to find them in hiding. Second, you'd have to aim to actually use your bow well enou.. oh silence pulsed. Second you have to search again. Third you'd have to roar at them to hold them still a mi.. damn that barrier. Wait, where did they go? Fourth you have to search again. Oh, I see them, I can point in three, two... dagger through the spleen. All I have to say is thank god for famine and tenacity.

Barbs don't have that one or two things that really hurts... tm is king right now. Weapons are blah. It will all swing around as these things do.


We definitely have a nice toolset but in pvp we are lacking a little.

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Berserks should hurt more, IMO.

>>The only way things can possibly be brought into line, here, is to give us a cyclic style berserk as a damage source, like was proposed to begin with, or to make targetted magic work as weapon maneuvers. You attack or do anything roundtime-binding while targetting, and it's going to break your target process. Even then, cyclic TM would still be an overwhelming combination with weapons and the use of disablers, which don't need to be targetted.

Well I am banned from making abilities that do damage unless it checks TM skill. And rewriting TM to do what you ask is probably outside of my skill level with magic even if we wanted to :chuckle:

Would a damaging berserk even matter? Would you stay at melee long enough for it to pulse?

Roars (with their instant-activation) were supposed to help even the field. Why are they not useful in these situations? Are BSs always stunning you, thus preventing you from roaring the thief immobilized at melee for you to impale him? You mentioned a barrier, is the thief capable of resisting roars 100% of the time? If they do resist, is the barrier not weakened? At the expense of voice pool can you not break it down?

If you put up Swan + Serenity how is magic still an issue? Is Serenity undesirable because of the roar blocking? What if I made it just use more voice pool or give more RT instead?

Why can you not hide to break target?

Why can you not use Slash the Shadows to unhide the hiders?

It isn't like you don't have abilities. The abilities are working as well as global caps in the core mechanics will allow. The idea is that since every Guild uses the same mechanics, it should be difficult for one to get overpowered. I realize some abilities maybe be unique and overpowered, but those should be exceptions to the rule...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>Well I am banned from making abilities that do damage unless it checks TM skill. And rewriting TM to do what you ask is probably outside of my skill level with magic even if we wanted to :chuckle:

Why not have it check weapon skill?

>Would a damaging berserk even matter? Would you stay at melee long enough for it to pulse?

Rimefang and RoS are used by Warmies, right?

>If you put up Swan + Serenity how is magic still an issue? Is Serenity undesirable because of the roar blocking? What if I made it just use more voice pool or give more RT instead?

I don't think people are doing a lot of non-capped spellcasting at the range people are discussing, and Serenity, being a meditation, means it's not particularly useful to most in PvP situations where they aren't the aggressor, and it means no roaring. Similarly, I can't imagine using Dispel for anything - it'd be

I also have rarely had my roars affect people at level, and when it does, they shake it off pretty quick.

Gonna take this a step at a time, but it's honestly so much more than I could cover in one post, or even cover myself.

>>Well I am banned from making abilities that do damage unless it checks TM skill.

I thought the paradigm was that you could not deal damage with a skill trained with zero risk, IE something that could be trained out of combat. Why could the berserk not call on expertise and the related weapon skill, both combat skills, even the weapon skillset?

>>Would a damaging berserk even matter? Would you stay at melee long enough for it to pulse?

This is a two-parter, here. Lets mention bow combat, first. If I dont advance and keep pressing to melee range, they just leave the room when I aim (or, pulsing inviso just wrecks aim faster than you can get a shot off), prep a disabler, and blow me up when I move to follow. Aimed weapon combat is a joke in PVP right now, unless someone just stands there and lets you hit them, it's worthless for us. This is partially because of an issue with roars which I will bring up again later (and was even quantified by other GMs the last time this was brought up).

So yes, even with bow, I am required to keep advancing, and push for melee.

>>Roars (with their instant-activation) were supposed to help even the field.

I cannot harp on this enough, but my point just fails to be seen. Every caster that tries to PVP caps out their mentals, asap, because of the TM and Debilitation power granted by them (disc, int and wisdom), the disabler defenses, the learning advantages. Our one means of disabling is lobbed against what is the highest statwall in the general PVP community, and outside it. Every other guild has multiple contests as ways for a workaround here, we do not. Hell, earthquake STILL doesnt work in pvp. Every time it is brought up, there is a back and forth 'Yes it does' 'No it doesn't' then people actually test, realize it doesn't, still, and it slips into obscurity again. As per disabling goes, we're damn near traders with a coin flip.

In addition to that, our voice pool diminishing reduces the strength, meaning even if we can get one or two off in the beginning of a fight, that ability is even going to decrease in potency, seemingly quite a bit. We have no staying power in the new combat system which prompts much longer fights.

>> Are BSs always stunning you, thus preventing you from roaring the thief immobilized at melee for you to impale him?

No, but the combination of dirt (random up to 5 second RTs, when it lands) slash, clout, and pulsing invis giving no contest stealth and forcing a 3 second search, plus point in most cases to be able to interact, leaves you disabled and stabbed again before you can react. Not to mention their AOE pulsing disabler, something persistant akin to clerics with hydrahex (which is nasty), is a double dip for them. It penalizes evasion, which is the only defense contested on a successful stab.

>> You mentioned a barrier, is the thief capable of resisting roars 100% of the time? If they do resist, is the barrier not weakened? At the expense of voice pool can you not break it down?


To answer these as simply as possible, first: Yes. No. No. Concentration is a much more forgiving buff source than fire, recovers faster, and especially at top end, unless they really, really overdo it they are rarely (see: never in my experience) left empty and buffless the way we are eventually. Even if they get low, they have Khri's that guarantee escape, move a few rooms, sit invisible for 30 seconds to gain back a lot of concentration. Even reactivating the roar blocking khri while invisible.

On top of this, the thief in question, with substantially less utility than my warding, is easily able to shut down spells without sacrificing the use of other abilities. They have no drawback. But, when I throw up a bear boosted turtle, from a point of 100 base ranks higher before the warding bonus is even applied, the spells not only fly right through, but near max success. She resists completely from a lower point, with an ability with no drawbacks, but I get floored with considerably more skill and totaled, a bit higher mentals (in situations where willpower was the contest).

>>If you put up Swan + Serenity how is magic still an issue? Is Serenity undesirable because of the roar blocking? What if I made it just use more voice pool or give more RT instead?

Roar blocking? I could be on outdated information, but last time I roared with Serenity, the roar shattered serenity dropping it completely. Is this no longer the case? That coupled with the still decent fire hits EVERY time a spell hits us is just overwhelming. In a fight just last night, someone spammed a macro, snapcasting divine radiance multiple times a second. Probably 30 or so casts in 5 seconds. This would just wipe out fire completely, and honestly feels like something being exploited, and
needs to be looked at.

>>Why can you not hide to break target?

In the system as it stands? Even barbs that have exceptional stealth claim this is an inefficient strategy. Versus everyone and their mother having a perception buff, watch, being secondary, not having a passive stealth hindrance reduction like survival primes (in most cases)... Hell, even versus Limani, a thief with circles on me, but around the same combats, I auto point her hide attempts. It's the no contest invis that gets me.

>>Why can you not use Slash the Shadows to unhide the hiders?

Because one can only go so deep in so many trees and still grab at least the necessary masteries to reduce fire consumption. At this point, you're telling me I HAVE to have serenity, HAVE to have slash, you're dictating exactly what needs to be done, again, having to invest to the top of the trees. We are forced to pick and choose, but with these statements, you're saying we dont have a choice.

>>It isn't like you don't have abilities.

Not damage producing ones, like every other guild (Except traders and thieves, really, but thieves have a very effective, nearly cleric like toolbox to offset this, at least by top end). Again, having multiple sources of damage generation available simultaneously is much more important than you seem to think.

>> I realize some abilities maybe be unique and overpowered, but those should be exceptions to the rule...


This. Oh god this. The problem is, there are so many exceptions. Halo. Zero diminishing return knockback and stun with what seems to be a ridiculously easy contest even at lower mana, in extensive testing done by myself and others. Bard songs. Their CC also has zero diminishing returns. I spent a 5 minute fight not long ago on my back 80+% of the time because theyre nearly impossible to resist, both because of stat assignment and the design themselves, it appears. I've watched Noopin (RIP my little gnomefriend) lock down people 30+ circles over him the same way. There are so many 'exceptions'. So many gimmicks that bridge the gap for so many guilds, and our tools feel like they fall flat.

Again, in the cleric fight last night, I started with bow, and he just started moving around, prepping disablers, running, casting, not allowing an aim. So, being the moderately rounded barbarian I am, pulled out my throwing weapon in place of the bow. Thats when he hit me with CoZ. Welding that axe to my hand forcing me to engage him at melee. While engaging, he hits me with sick. screwing balance, dropping me to my knees. I expected it, and hit flashflood prior to keep me defending myself on my feet, but those balance hits hurt. Then, with a rotation of sick, refreshing CoZ, and attacking, he continued to wail away on me while forced to melee with my thrown weapon, definitely not my first choice. Even used soul bond at a point to lock me at pole range so I could neither leave nor advance. Some guilds have a toolbox diverse and powerful enough to take away every option until you completely outclass them and resist entirely.

Nice post, Kmorse.

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"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade

What are the win buttons for other guilds? I'm not asking because I don't believe you, I'm just curious what everyone thinks they are.

For Clerics, I was under the impression it was SA, but I've also heard contrary reports. For Bards, ABAN and maybe AEWO?

>>I don't think people are doing a lot of non-capped spellcasting at the range people are discussing,

Possibly a failing of Magic 3.0 if unlimited capped-spell casting can be done without spending time harnessing, using cambrinth, etc. I'm not sure this can be fixed with a stronger magic barrier. Otherwise we're just back to old BMR.

Still, I'd want some confirmation this is what is happening. Leading with a capped spell is acceptable. Blasting you with 10 of them, is not. How many spell hits is it taking to kill you? With vitality being so much higher I'd think it at least 6-7 casts?

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

At end game they can blast away at cap. I'll try to grab erixx and die a few times today :-(

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>>aim and TM are both under the same influence with that. Get used to how long things take and either run away and come back, or hunt them down when they move.

Sorry for the quick follow up post, but I want to amend this. Seems bow was "fixed", you can no longer aim and leave a room and come back with aim still held. With TM you can. That's borked. Pick one paradigm and stick with it.

So it sounds like making Roars use a more diverse set of contests would help considerably.

There may be a way to make Screech more powerful, thereby reducing the stat-point disparity folks are noticing at the higher circles in exchange for less overall roaring during a fight.

As I mentioned in the other thread, we know barriers have some issues that are complicating factors. Walking into a room and unloading a 6-shot fully-targeted capped pre-cast TM spell at someone is not desirable, and breaks abilities like Serenity that are intended to pulse per spell... Likewise, pulsing spells break barriers like Serenity because it isn't capable of permanently disrupting the pulsing spell.

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes

>>Yeah, was about to reply with something about this, myself. In fact, if you target with TM, and the target hides post target and stays in the room, can't you also still cast? This is another HUGE difference.

Yes and no. This is a bit of a sore spot to me and usually the reason why I lose a fight against a thief because I'm losing a fight against syntax.

If a thief hides on me and I see them (survival tert lol), I can still cast.

If a thief hides on me and I do NOT see them, then no I cannot cast. If I cast, it gives me messaging that I still have a spell prepared but that I've lost my target. If I point them out and target them it says that I do not have a spell prepared. Or sometimes it will say that I'm already targeting an area pattern (The spell was AE.. area pattern????) If I then prepare a spell it says I already have a spell prepared.

...

So I have to release the spell, reprep the spell, retarget the spell. That's a lot of time doing all that when the game is giving me contradictory information.. and often why I'm just standing there playing a guessing game of "What does syntax want me to do next?" while getting smacked around by a thief.

Two things are guaranteed in a thief fight.. death and syntax.

Well I can see about looking into the syntactical inconsistencies with ranged combat and stealth. It isn't really my area, but I'll poke...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes