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>>I'm pretty sure that they were over 9000.
I tried to get Gorteous' power levels on my scanner, but it experienced an overflow error...
DIMINISHEDANGEL
NEELD
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/07/2012 08:07 AM CDT
<<It's also worth highlighting that knowing how to be stealthy might not be as be-all-end-all in a 3.0 world.
About the only update I heard (third hand at that) from SimuCon was that stealth wasn't changing that much. Anyone that attended confirm?
Madigan
About the only update I heard (third hand at that) from SimuCon was that stealth wasn't changing that much. Anyone that attended confirm?
Madigan
PENDUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/07/2012 09:58 AM CDT
It's not, but what I think he meant is unless you grossly outclass someone/thing you won't be one shotting them anymore.
GORTEOUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/08/2012 01:49 PM CDT
>> I don't believe you were seeing a boost in dance performance, but a huge penalty to berserks. Berserks definitely start losing some strength once your mentals tick a little higher than your physicals (somewhere between 3-5 points is when I could first measure a difference with roundtimes). I honestly have no clue if said penalties have a ceiling, as the stats you posted are much higher in discrepancy than I ever had :).
This would imply that low-level berserks are stronger than high-level dances, and that berserks just get progressively worse up until they lag behind dances. This should be directly observable in my case - 89 physical av. str/stam/ref/agi vs 85 mental av. int/wis/disc - but it most certainly isn't.
>> I don't believe you were seeing a boost in dance performance, but a huge penalty to berserks. Berserks definitely start losing some strength once your mentals tick a little higher than your physicals (somewhere between 3-5 points is when I could first measure a difference with roundtimes). I honestly have no clue if said penalties have a ceiling, as the stats you posted are much higher in discrepancy than I ever had :).
What did compare Cobra against? You never mentioned what berserk. Also, you do realize that 5 points in Discipline is even less significant in this situation considering that Cobra has no stats boosts with it, right? It's not really a fair comparison considering all berserks give stat boosts. If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
>> This done not within itself say that discipline doesn't factor into a dance's buff "power," as damage values are a range like everything else. Additionally, 5 points of discipline may simply have not been enough to notice a statistically significant increase in power, especially at such lower ranks.
+2% at 228 is about 5 ranks. You really think you'd notice something like that? And look at everything else it boosts besides this - general magic/fear resistance, Shield, TM, primary factor in Hiding, Conc/Fatigue/Spirit... list goes on. Truly a combat-oriented stat if there ever was one. It's worth cranking above others, no question.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
This would imply that low-level berserks are stronger than high-level dances, and that berserks just get progressively worse up until they lag behind dances. This should be directly observable in my case - 89 physical av. str/stam/ref/agi vs 85 mental av. int/wis/disc - but it most certainly isn't.
>> I don't believe you were seeing a boost in dance performance, but a huge penalty to berserks. Berserks definitely start losing some strength once your mentals tick a little higher than your physicals (somewhere between 3-5 points is when I could first measure a difference with roundtimes). I honestly have no clue if said penalties have a ceiling, as the stats you posted are much higher in discrepancy than I ever had :).
What did compare Cobra against? You never mentioned what berserk. Also, you do realize that 5 points in Discipline is even less significant in this situation considering that Cobra has no stats boosts with it, right? It's not really a fair comparison considering all berserks give stat boosts. If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
>> This done not within itself say that discipline doesn't factor into a dance's buff "power," as damage values are a range like everything else. Additionally, 5 points of discipline may simply have not been enough to notice a statistically significant increase in power, especially at such lower ranks.
+2% at 228 is about 5 ranks. You really think you'd notice something like that? And look at everything else it boosts besides this - general magic/fear resistance, Shield, TM, primary factor in Hiding, Conc/Fatigue/Spirit... list goes on. Truly a combat-oriented stat if there ever was one. It's worth cranking above others, no question.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
BEYONDDISBELIEF
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/08/2012 03:50 PM CDT
>This would imply that low-level berserks are stronger than high-level dances, and that berserks just get progressively worse up until they lag behind dances.
This is true in my experience. My barb is only around 35th circle. Even disregarding the fact Berserk stone can bring my vitality from 10% or terribly wounded to being constant 100% invigorated, I see much less hits from mobs from the defense boosts and much faster kills. Granted, the last time my health ever dropped to 10% was beisswurms because I hadn't worked into my script to berserk back to back at that point in time, but since then the usual case for 50% vitality still gets rushed up to invigorated.
I did focus more on physicals, but I can maintain blood + stone back to back since low levels and and feel practically invincible.
So long as I had stone up I have never dropped below invigorated health while hunting appropriate levels. This is factual experience and zero poor memory unlike my discussion on roars in the other thread.
> If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
Low levels don't have access to those dances; We're talking about a general consensus that Berserks are more effective than dances at low levels. Everytime I felt adventurous and wanted to try out cobra, swan, and badger at vines ended up in failed experiments and the conclusion that 30's in circle still wasn't quite the time to move to dances.
This is true in my experience. My barb is only around 35th circle. Even disregarding the fact Berserk stone can bring my vitality from 10% or terribly wounded to being constant 100% invigorated, I see much less hits from mobs from the defense boosts and much faster kills. Granted, the last time my health ever dropped to 10% was beisswurms because I hadn't worked into my script to berserk back to back at that point in time, but since then the usual case for 50% vitality still gets rushed up to invigorated.
I did focus more on physicals, but I can maintain blood + stone back to back since low levels and and feel practically invincible.
So long as I had stone up I have never dropped below invigorated health while hunting appropriate levels. This is factual experience and zero poor memory unlike my discussion on roars in the other thread.
> If you're going to compare, compare it with Wolverine/Dragon.
Low levels don't have access to those dances; We're talking about a general consensus that Berserks are more effective than dances at low levels. Everytime I felt adventurous and wanted to try out cobra, swan, and badger at vines ended up in failed experiments and the conclusion that 30's in circle still wasn't quite the time to move to dances.
VEE-REX
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/08/2012 04:02 PM CDT
Berserks at lower-levels are not more powerful than dances at higher-levels. Not at all.
Discipline affects BMR equally to the other mentals, as I'm pretty sure all mentals affect BMR the same. All physical stats help, though not as much as WIS/DISC/CHAR/INT.
I'm also pretty sure dances can be quite effective at low levels depending on how you train your stats. Better than berserks? Depending on how you train your stats. But I do believe if your dances are better than berserks at lower levels it's a direct result of you killing your berserk power with much higher discipline than physicals.
But still, it's entirely subjective. There is no way to boost a ranged weapon with berserks. There is no way to boost hiding with berserks. It really depends on the individual character and how they are trained and what they intend to do with all that training.
Personally, I'd prefer to go the dancing route even at early circles. But that's now, back then I was actually a berserker.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
Discipline affects BMR equally to the other mentals, as I'm pretty sure all mentals affect BMR the same. All physical stats help, though not as much as WIS/DISC/CHAR/INT.
I'm also pretty sure dances can be quite effective at low levels depending on how you train your stats. Better than berserks? Depending on how you train your stats. But I do believe if your dances are better than berserks at lower levels it's a direct result of you killing your berserk power with much higher discipline than physicals.
But still, it's entirely subjective. There is no way to boost a ranged weapon with berserks. There is no way to boost hiding with berserks. It really depends on the individual character and how they are trained and what they intend to do with all that training.
Personally, I'd prefer to go the dancing route even at early circles. But that's now, back then I was actually a berserker.
Individuals, families, countries, continents are destroyed at the heavy hand of Vinjince.
-GM Abasha
MARTINCOTY77
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/08/2012 05:10 PM CDT
We could just say, with relatively equal stats, berserks are better than dances in most PVE combat situations.
Some exception as Vinjince brought up, nothing beats Eagle dance for ranged. For hiding, obviously panther is the only buff we have, not sure how great it is cause I have always had high hiding for the opponents I faced.
Gorteous, your stat stack at 67th is quite easily going to make dances better for you. 67th isn't exactly a super low circle so your example really isn't a great one. I think I switched over to dances somewhere in the 70's and all my stats were completely even give or take a few points. I think I heard recommendations of 60's or so to switch alot.
For me, the blood+stone berserk always outshined the dances in melee combat until I obviously switched which I backed up with testing. I didn't just switch at a set circle\rank\stat. I tested (and posted about it somewhere way back when) every few circles to determine if I should switch or not which I would encourage anyone questioning to do too because it does depend on your setup.
If I remember correctly my tests were blood+stone against cobra, wolverine or badger.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
Some exception as Vinjince brought up, nothing beats Eagle dance for ranged. For hiding, obviously panther is the only buff we have, not sure how great it is cause I have always had high hiding for the opponents I faced.
Gorteous, your stat stack at 67th is quite easily going to make dances better for you. 67th isn't exactly a super low circle so your example really isn't a great one. I think I switched over to dances somewhere in the 70's and all my stats were completely even give or take a few points. I think I heard recommendations of 60's or so to switch alot.
For me, the blood+stone berserk always outshined the dances in melee combat until I obviously switched which I backed up with testing. I didn't just switch at a set circle\rank\stat. I tested (and posted about it somewhere way back when) every few circles to determine if I should switch or not which I would encourage anyone questioning to do too because it does depend on your setup.
If I remember correctly my tests were blood+stone against cobra, wolverine or badger.
Codiax.
Forged Weapons:
http://www.elanthipedia.org/wiki/User:Codiax#Codiax-Forged-Weapons
GORTEOUS
Re: looking for some stat advice-barbarian
08/08/2012 07:53 PM CDT
>> Gorteous, your stat stack at 67th is quite easily going to make dances better for you. 67th isn't exactly a super low circle so your example really isn't a great one. I think I switched over to dances somewhere in the 70's and all my stats were completely even give or take a few points. I think I heard recommendations of 60's or so to switch alot.
G had those mentals from about 52nd - started working physicals after that. Keep in mind, he's Rakash(+2 +1 -1 OUCH!) and that those stats are pre exp-change - an average Barb of today would have 1.5x as many TDPs earned at that circle.
I ran a test on my 53rd barb - blood + stone vs badger.
blood + stone:
171 blocks
20 evades
24 hits
badger:
230 blocks
153 evade
6 hits
Didn't time them. Just stood there with a rapier in hand - dodge position, no attacking. Stance was the same for both - critters were the same for both(3 bandits, 1 long-fanged warcat). No burden. Did berserk first, so any scuffing obtained from doing that would have affected the results of badger(and probably did). So except for health, all the variables were identical.
stanc
You are currently using 100% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 85% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 0% of your weapon parry skill.
You are attacking with 100% of your offensive skill.
Last Combat Maneuver: Dodge
>
Name: xxx Race: Human Guild: Barbarian
Gender: Male Age: 64 Circle: 53
You were born on the 8th day of the 10th month of Nissa the Maiden in the year of the Emerald Dolphin, 341 years after the victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Your birthday is more than 7 months away.
Strength : 30 Reflex : 37
Agility : 31 Charisma : 15
Discipline : 37 Wisdom : 29
Intelligence : 29 Stamina : 34
Concentration : 188 Max : 188
enc
Encumbrance : None
Shield Usage: 242 64% mind lock (34/34) Leather Armor: 253 46% mind lock (34/34)
Light Chain: 191 35% mind lock (34/34) Heavy Chain: 141 59% examining (13/34)
Parry Ability: 276 76% very engaged (23/34) Multi Opponent: 277 40% mind lock (34/34)
Evasion: 264 93% nearly locked (33/34) First Aid: 297 66% learning (3/34)
inv armor
All of your armor:
some perfect azure-scaled leathers
a lightened chain balaclava
some tempered mail gloves
a crocodile-skin buckler
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
I could probably circle him some in the next week or two and raise his physicals, but I'm seriously doubting that's the issue.
Yea, not sure where people got the idea that berserks are better. I'd say badger whooped zerking pretty handily.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
G had those mentals from about 52nd - started working physicals after that. Keep in mind, he's Rakash(+2 +1 -1 OUCH!) and that those stats are pre exp-change - an average Barb of today would have 1.5x as many TDPs earned at that circle.
I ran a test on my 53rd barb - blood + stone vs badger.
blood + stone:
171 blocks
20 evades
24 hits
badger:
230 blocks
153 evade
6 hits
Didn't time them. Just stood there with a rapier in hand - dodge position, no attacking. Stance was the same for both - critters were the same for both(3 bandits, 1 long-fanged warcat). No burden. Did berserk first, so any scuffing obtained from doing that would have affected the results of badger(and probably did). So except for health, all the variables were identical.
stanc
You are currently using 100% of your evasion skill.
You are currently using 85% of your shield block skill.
You are currently using 0% of your weapon parry skill.
You are attacking with 100% of your offensive skill.
Last Combat Maneuver: Dodge
>
Name: xxx Race: Human Guild: Barbarian
Gender: Male Age: 64 Circle: 53
You were born on the 8th day of the 10th month of Nissa the Maiden in the year of the Emerald Dolphin, 341 years after the victory of Lanival the Redeemer.
Your birthday is more than 7 months away.
Strength : 30 Reflex : 37
Agility : 31 Charisma : 15
Discipline : 37 Wisdom : 29
Intelligence : 29 Stamina : 34
Concentration : 188 Max : 188
enc
Encumbrance : None
Shield Usage: 242 64% mind lock (34/34) Leather Armor: 253 46% mind lock (34/34)
Light Chain: 191 35% mind lock (34/34) Heavy Chain: 141 59% examining (13/34)
Parry Ability: 276 76% very engaged (23/34) Multi Opponent: 277 40% mind lock (34/34)
Evasion: 264 93% nearly locked (33/34) First Aid: 297 66% learning (3/34)
inv armor
All of your armor:
some perfect azure-scaled leathers
a lightened chain balaclava
some tempered mail gloves
a crocodile-skin buckler
[Type INVENTORY HELP for more options]
I could probably circle him some in the next week or two and raise his physicals, but I'm seriously doubting that's the issue.
Yea, not sure where people got the idea that berserks are better. I'd say badger whooped zerking pretty handily.
IM: Dannyboy00001111
"Fool proof system do not take into account the ingenuity of fools, nor the power of numbers."
