So we have three paths we can choose; Horde, Flame, and Predator. Right now they do nothing. I've commented before that giving bonus slots in each tree is pointless as your slots are fungible. So I've been thinking...
We don't have any abilities that bonus any lore skills, especially crafting.
What if we got a 20% skill bonus by choosing a path (which is permanent) like this?
Horde Path: Forging and Tactics
Flame Path: Alchemy and Enchanting
Predator Path: Engineering and Outfitting
Thoughts?
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
RCHIGHT
LCAMP2
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 04:55 AM CDT
You're suggesting a permanent buff for a lore tertiary guild to 2 crafting skills that is twice the strength that you can obtain from any buffing ability.
GRIM45
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 06:02 AM CDT
>I've commented before that giving bonus slots in each tree is pointless as your slots are fungible. So I've been thinking...
I disagree with this statement. Unless you're arguing that crafting bonus techs for hobby/career are also pointless?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
I disagree with this statement. Unless you're arguing that crafting bonus techs for hobby/career are also pointless?
TG, TG, GL, et al.
"Disagreement with the fundamental plan at this point is akin to supporting Richard III vs the Tudors." -Raesh
SHADDARAK
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 06:27 AM CDT
Do any other guilds have a similar specializations/path? If so, what do those guilds gain when specializing?
SHIFT3
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 04:08 PM CDT
> You're suggesting a permanent buff for a lore tertiary guild to 2 crafting skills
Wasn't this the reason bards, as a lore prime, lost the two buffs with muse? It was deemed too powerful.
> that is twice the strength that you can obtain from any buffing ability.
I thought all craft buffs capped at 20% now?
> Do any other guilds have a similar specializations/path? If so, what do those guilds gain when specializing?
Moon mage sects. They get access to wearable fluff. A minor buff. A couple of fluffy cantrips, with some having practical effects such as no-stun katamba teleports or +10 in a random skill. They also get an affinity with a spell and can cast it with a little less mana.
Bardic houses were discussed (and planned?) but never implemented.
Warrior mages have elemental affinity, but that's not really the same. They can choose a domain for the room and align to a certain element. It gives them or takes from them secondary resource when they cast an opposing spell.
Warrior mages and bards have elemental transformations. It's basically a normal spell that's a little overslotted and they can only have one of the transformations up at a time.
Wasn't this the reason bards, as a lore prime, lost the two buffs with muse? It was deemed too powerful.
> that is twice the strength that you can obtain from any buffing ability.
I thought all craft buffs capped at 20% now?
> Do any other guilds have a similar specializations/path? If so, what do those guilds gain when specializing?
Moon mage sects. They get access to wearable fluff. A minor buff. A couple of fluffy cantrips, with some having practical effects such as no-stun katamba teleports or +10 in a random skill. They also get an affinity with a spell and can cast it with a little less mana.
Bardic houses were discussed (and planned?) but never implemented.
Warrior mages have elemental affinity, but that's not really the same. They can choose a domain for the room and align to a certain element. It gives them or takes from them secondary resource when they cast an opposing spell.
Warrior mages and bards have elemental transformations. It's basically a normal spell that's a little overslotted and they can only have one of the transformations up at a time.
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 09:29 PM CDT
>I've commented before that giving bonus slots in each tree is pointless as your slots are fungible. So I've been thinking...
>>I disagree with this statement. Unless you're arguing that crafting bonus techs for hobby/career are also pointless? - Grim45
So, here's the reason why it's pointless. If I get two extra slots in Flame by choosing the path, what's to keep me from unlearning (or not learning if you are younger) two slots from Flame and placing them elsewhere? Slots here equal ability points of course as all "slots" are open to every barb depending on how they want to spend their points. It's pointless to award additional points to a chosen path as one can just reallocate the learned points from circling and distribute them into other paths then take advantage of the Path selection points. I would end up with exactly the same abilities as I now have in the Flame path but have one or two additional abilities in other paths. Not a good "bonus" for choosing a path, as it means nothing about the chosen path. Pointless.
I'm trying to generate conversation about what WOULD be a good bonus for choosing a path. I may have used Overton's Window a bit in my initial post but that generates discussion. Thanks all for your comments...but I haven't heard any counters, just reasons (not very convincing I might add) as to why my suggestion isn't "fair".
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
>>I disagree with this statement. Unless you're arguing that crafting bonus techs for hobby/career are also pointless? - Grim45
So, here's the reason why it's pointless. If I get two extra slots in Flame by choosing the path, what's to keep me from unlearning (or not learning if you are younger) two slots from Flame and placing them elsewhere? Slots here equal ability points of course as all "slots" are open to every barb depending on how they want to spend their points. It's pointless to award additional points to a chosen path as one can just reallocate the learned points from circling and distribute them into other paths then take advantage of the Path selection points. I would end up with exactly the same abilities as I now have in the Flame path but have one or two additional abilities in other paths. Not a good "bonus" for choosing a path, as it means nothing about the chosen path. Pointless.
I'm trying to generate conversation about what WOULD be a good bonus for choosing a path. I may have used Overton's Window a bit in my initial post but that generates discussion. Thanks all for your comments...but I haven't heard any counters, just reasons (not very convincing I might add) as to why my suggestion isn't "fair".
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/05/2019 09:40 PM CDT
>You're suggesting a permanent buff for a lore tertiary guild to 2 crafting skills that is twice the strength that you can obtain from any buffing ability. - LCAMP2
As stated 20% is the cap for buffing skills already. Also, we already have tertiary permanent buffs with our masteries. Whether they are 20% or not is unknown. I'll go with whatever the buff is to these masteries is what the buffs to my suggested lore skills should be.
Titan: Augmentation
Powermonger: Inner Fire
Tribalist: Debilitation
We are magic tert but we get permanent bonuses from learning these masteries. It's not unprecedented.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
As stated 20% is the cap for buffing skills already. Also, we already have tertiary permanent buffs with our masteries. Whether they are 20% or not is unknown. I'll go with whatever the buff is to these masteries is what the buffs to my suggested lore skills should be.
Titan: Augmentation
Powermonger: Inner Fire
Tribalist: Debilitation
We are magic tert but we get permanent bonuses from learning these masteries. It's not unprecedented.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
LCAMP2
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/06/2019 12:02 AM CDT
Magic skills make sense since they are what govern the use of the abilities within those paths and fits with the idea of specialization. I think you'd have far better success asking for a separate Forging buff meditation. It's not permanently on and isn't 2 crafting skills that are at best tangentially related to the specialization. I highly doubt Barbarians are going to ever be given 2 permanent boosts to crafting skills. Even Lore primes don't get that.
<<Wasn't this the reason bards, as a lore prime, lost the two buffs with muse? It was deemed too powerful.
Almost. The Bard spell buff whichever skill is the highest for the target, so buffing the 2 highest for each target on a standard spell was considered too powerful. If it had been limited to 2 specific skills regardless of relative skill it likely would have been approved.
<<They also get an affinity with a spell and can cast it with a little less mana.
There's no mana cost adjustment. For the spells with durations, the affinities change the duration of the spell from that of a standard spell to that a ritual spell. The 2 that don't have standard durations are a slight reduction in the moon power level needed for the tier boost to a moonblade and a slightly reduced chance of scroll destruction with Unleash. But, even counting that, Moon Mage sect choice is largely for roleplay. The benefits for the permanent choice are minor. Moon Mages have been advocating for being able to change sects, so maybe that is a suggestion you could make if you feel that Barbarian path specialization doesn't give enough benefit for being a permanent choice.
<<Wasn't this the reason bards, as a lore prime, lost the two buffs with muse? It was deemed too powerful.
Almost. The Bard spell buff whichever skill is the highest for the target, so buffing the 2 highest for each target on a standard spell was considered too powerful. If it had been limited to 2 specific skills regardless of relative skill it likely would have been approved.
<<They also get an affinity with a spell and can cast it with a little less mana.
There's no mana cost adjustment. For the spells with durations, the affinities change the duration of the spell from that of a standard spell to that a ritual spell. The 2 that don't have standard durations are a slight reduction in the moon power level needed for the tier boost to a moonblade and a slightly reduced chance of scroll destruction with Unleash. But, even counting that, Moon Mage sect choice is largely for roleplay. The benefits for the permanent choice are minor. Moon Mages have been advocating for being able to change sects, so maybe that is a suggestion you could make if you feel that Barbarian path specialization doesn't give enough benefit for being a permanent choice.
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/06/2019 09:04 PM CDT
>>I think you'd have far better success asking for a separate Forging buff meditation.
But not all of us barbs are weapon forgers (though I am a blacksmith myself) and nae should we be.
>>Magic skills make sense since they are what govern the use of the abilities within those paths and fits with the idea of specialization. I think you'd have far better success asking for a separate Forging buff meditation. It's not permanently on and isn't 2 crafting skills that are at best tangentially related to the specialization. I highly doubt Barbarians are going to ever be given 2 permanent boosts to crafting skills. Even Lore primes don't get that.
Okay, that's a good argument ;-) So what if by choosing the path you get to choose, also, for a specific lore skill you can boost (from my list) with the meditation (lets say MEDITATE PATH). I'll even throw in that it's a 10% bonus instead of 20% for arguments sake.
Example:
>Choose path horde
>Which skill would you like to boost within your chosen path: Forging or Tactics
>Choose path horde forging
>You have chosen the horde path of forging.
MEDITATE PATH then gives some boost to forging.
Discuss.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
But not all of us barbs are weapon forgers (though I am a blacksmith myself) and nae should we be.
>>Magic skills make sense since they are what govern the use of the abilities within those paths and fits with the idea of specialization. I think you'd have far better success asking for a separate Forging buff meditation. It's not permanently on and isn't 2 crafting skills that are at best tangentially related to the specialization. I highly doubt Barbarians are going to ever be given 2 permanent boosts to crafting skills. Even Lore primes don't get that.
Okay, that's a good argument ;-) So what if by choosing the path you get to choose, also, for a specific lore skill you can boost (from my list) with the meditation (lets say MEDITATE PATH). I'll even throw in that it's a 10% bonus instead of 20% for arguments sake.
Example:
>Choose path horde
>Which skill would you like to boost within your chosen path: Forging or Tactics
>Choose path horde forging
>You have chosen the horde path of forging.
MEDITATE PATH then gives some boost to forging.
Discuss.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/06/2019 09:51 PM CDT
Horde Path: Forging and Tactics
Flame Path: Alchemy and Enchanting
Predator Path: Engineering and Outfitting
Let me go into detail a bit more of why I chose the skills I did, and how they are related to specializations for barbs...
Horde = melee/strength attack path. Forging is used to make weapons/armor/tools related to melee (in general) attacks. Tactics is all about melee attacks/defense.
Flame = anti-magic/magic (I hate that word for barbs but go with me here) path. Alchemy is about self healing instead of using Empaths magic tough. Enchanting is about making enchanted weapons/stuff without the use of finger waggling.
Predator: stealthy/light/stalking path. Engineering is used to make ranged weapons (in general, though stone/bone is used for melee too). Outfitting is used to make light armor with low stealth hindrance.
This is how I came up with the groupings I posit as they make sense to me from a specialization standpoint. I'm open to suggestions as to why/why not these would make sense for a path selection bonus.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Flame Path: Alchemy and Enchanting
Predator Path: Engineering and Outfitting
Let me go into detail a bit more of why I chose the skills I did, and how they are related to specializations for barbs...
Horde = melee/strength attack path. Forging is used to make weapons/armor/tools related to melee (in general) attacks. Tactics is all about melee attacks/defense.
Flame = anti-magic/magic (I hate that word for barbs but go with me here) path. Alchemy is about self healing instead of using Empaths magic tough. Enchanting is about making enchanted weapons/stuff without the use of finger waggling.
Predator: stealthy/light/stalking path. Engineering is used to make ranged weapons (in general, though stone/bone is used for melee too). Outfitting is used to make light armor with low stealth hindrance.
This is how I came up with the groupings I posit as they make sense to me from a specialization standpoint. I'm open to suggestions as to why/why not these would make sense for a path selection bonus.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
SHADDARAK
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/07/2019 08:54 AM CDT
I oppose enchanting and enchanted weapons for my barbarian so I don't think enchanting should be on the table. Doesn't the Flame path contain bonuses for destroying enchanted devices (runestones)?
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/07/2019 02:36 PM CDT
>>Doesn't the Flame path contain bonuses for destroying enchanted devices (runestones)?
Yes, the Flame path has the Templar mastery which allows the destruction of runestones (MED RUNESTONE <action>) to gain Inner Fire though there is a chance of injury still with EAT and SLAM. With one aspect of enchanting, a barbarian could make their own runestones which they could then use to regenerate inner fire if needed.
>>I oppose enchanting and enchanted weapons for my barbarian so I don't think enchanting should be on the table.
If the game allows for barbarians to do something then it becomes a RP decision to not do it, like you express. Just because your character is opposed to it doesn't mean the guild, in general, is. Enchanting falls very nicely into the Flame path IMO. Would I choose it? Most likely not as I agree with you on principle. But that's my RP position, and I wouldn't feel it's right to push my opinion on what crafting a Barbarian can and cannot do.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Yes, the Flame path has the Templar mastery which allows the destruction of runestones (MED RUNESTONE <action>) to gain Inner Fire though there is a chance of injury still with EAT and SLAM. With one aspect of enchanting, a barbarian could make their own runestones which they could then use to regenerate inner fire if needed.
>>I oppose enchanting and enchanted weapons for my barbarian so I don't think enchanting should be on the table.
If the game allows for barbarians to do something then it becomes a RP decision to not do it, like you express. Just because your character is opposed to it doesn't mean the guild, in general, is. Enchanting falls very nicely into the Flame path IMO. Would I choose it? Most likely not as I agree with you on principle. But that's my RP position, and I wouldn't feel it's right to push my opinion on what crafting a Barbarian can and cannot do.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
SHIFT3
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/07/2019 06:58 PM CDT
> There's no mana cost adjustment.
Yeah, it looks like I was mixing this up with the elemental bonus. https://elanthipedia.play.net/Sect_spell_affinity
> so maybe that is a suggestion you could make if you feel that Barbarian path specialization doesn't give enough benefit for being a permanent choice.
Maybe, but is the path mostly an RP choice as well?
Yeah, it looks like I was mixing this up with the elemental bonus. https://elanthipedia.play.net/Sect_spell_affinity
> so maybe that is a suggestion you could make if you feel that Barbarian path specialization doesn't give enough benefit for being a permanent choice.
Maybe, but is the path mostly an RP choice as well?
FATBOY30269
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/10/2019 11:19 AM CDT
Honestly, if you want the paths to mean anything, I would say have them allow for an extra Berserk, Form or Meditation to be active depending on the path chosen.
Lets be honest with ourselves though, with half our Masteries doing nothing/costing way too much/being useless, spells slots being bad compared to other guilds, no real offensive ability, fricken face paint, maybe getting warstomp back one day?, the path system seems pretty low on the totem pole.
The guild is one bad barrier review away from being in an even worse spot. Which is why I think so many of the large barbs have either sold or left. There is nothing that we excel at outside of learning weapons faster that other guilds can't or don't do better.
Lets be honest with ourselves though, with half our Masteries doing nothing/costing way too much/being useless, spells slots being bad compared to other guilds, no real offensive ability, fricken face paint, maybe getting warstomp back one day?, the path system seems pretty low on the totem pole.
The guild is one bad barrier review away from being in an even worse spot. Which is why I think so many of the large barbs have either sold or left. There is nothing that we excel at outside of learning weapons faster that other guilds can't or don't do better.
RCHIGHT
Re: The Paths to Success, or is that Suckless?
09/10/2019 06:57 PM CDT
>>The guild is one bad barrier review away from being in an even worse spot. Which is why I think so many of the large barbs have either sold or left. There is nothing that we excel at outside of learning weapons faster that other guilds can't or don't do better.
Walking and chewing gum. Walking and chewing gum. Paths isn't my number one priority for our guild either but we have a lot of new GM coders so we can see if more than one will take up Barb stuffs. If we don't make suggestions with new blood in the mix then nothing will get done for us potentially.
I hear you though. It's a hard row to hoe being a barb right now in PVP.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Walking and chewing gum. Walking and chewing gum. Paths isn't my number one priority for our guild either but we have a lot of new GM coders so we can see if more than one will take up Barb stuffs. If we don't make suggestions with new blood in the mix then nothing will get done for us potentially.
I hear you though. It's a hard row to hoe being a barb right now in PVP.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
