Just a few things to weigh if folks ever get around to looking at Barbarians again.
Need A Buff For Offhand
Barbarians use whirlwind quite a bit to train multiple weapons and the best way to do that involves using a weapon in both hands. However, we are unable to buff the offhand weapon the same way we do the main hand weapon. Eventually this means that Offhand will slow down our progression and limit the utility of whirlwind. I would prefer this be baked into Dragon, just make Dragon always buff held weapon and Offhand skill (extra bonus if it buffed the second held weapon skill as well).
Mastery Ability Slots
Four spell slots is extremely expensive for this supernatural-tert guild. While some masteries do warrant such steep costs, most do not. I would propose two tiers of masteries. Mid-tree masteries would cost 1 or 2 slots and would require only 4 prior skills in a tree. Things like Duelist, Strategos, Templar would fall into this category. End-tree masteries would cost 3 or 4 slots depending on their power.
Titan Should Also Reduce Start Up Cost
The startup cost of berserks, especially when putting up multiple, is a big barrier to using berserks. The reduced maintenance cost of berserks just doesn't feel very potent with this mastery.
Tribalist Should Function As Advertised
Namely, it should reduce the impact on inner fire regeneration threshold caused by Forms. It currently does not do this.
Low Level Barb Multistrike
Whirlwind is such a game changer for Barbarians because it improves the efficiency of training weapons. Up until that point, it is extremely painful to train weapons as a Barbarian. Lower level Barbarians (level 10) should have some access to some type of multistrike ability to facilitate learning and as a power spike to allow them to do more damage without magic. Some starting points could be:
1. Add an Analyze that gives you an X% chance of making a second, RT free attack with the same weapon. If you use offhand weapons, an extra attack with both main-hand and offhand weapons. In place of an analyze, this could be a new berserk.
2. Add a charged combat maneuver (FLURRY) that makes multiple attacks against a single target. Increase the number of attacks/potency of attacks based on expertise.
3. A new command that uses a new secondary resource pool to fuel multistrikes. See smite or GSIV's warrior multistrike.
Expertise Should Enhance Charged Combat Maneuvers
Specifically, it would be a great boon if expertise reduced the charge up time and cool down times. Could come in the form of static reductions or as a secondary resource pool that grows with skill. If the case of the latter, you would get X instant CCMs per Y period of time, where X grows with ranks in Expertise.
Thank you for reading, I hope you were at least entertained.
DRPLAYER1
RCHIGHT
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/19/2018 03:44 PM CDT
Thanks for posting these. I like your thinking. Also, many of these have been brought up before but are well worth bringing up again as you did. I'd like to comment on one specific suggestion...
>>Need A Buff For Offhand
>>Barbarians use whirlwind quite a bit to train multiple weapons and the best way to do that involves using a weapon in both hands. However, we are unable to buff the offhand weapon the same way we do the main hand weapon. Eventually this means that Offhand will slow down our progression and limit the utility of whirlwind. I would prefer this be baked into Dragon, just make Dragon always buff held weapon and Offhand skill (extra bonus if it buffed the second held weapon skill as well).
Having a buff to offhand weapon skill will do no good as once you have more skill in offhand than the weapon you are using you actually don't use any of the offhand skill because the formula caps at the skill level of the weapon in your left hand. This is based on the math of the offhand formula. We have asked for Dragon to function like Eagle and buff all melee weapons not just what's in your right hand. Kodius replied at the time this wasn't feasible. I would like to see a weapon bonus from dragon to whatever melee weapon you are holding in your right AND left hands though.
Good post in general though!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
>>Need A Buff For Offhand
>>Barbarians use whirlwind quite a bit to train multiple weapons and the best way to do that involves using a weapon in both hands. However, we are unable to buff the offhand weapon the same way we do the main hand weapon. Eventually this means that Offhand will slow down our progression and limit the utility of whirlwind. I would prefer this be baked into Dragon, just make Dragon always buff held weapon and Offhand skill (extra bonus if it buffed the second held weapon skill as well).
Having a buff to offhand weapon skill will do no good as once you have more skill in offhand than the weapon you are using you actually don't use any of the offhand skill because the formula caps at the skill level of the weapon in your left hand. This is based on the math of the offhand formula. We have asked for Dragon to function like Eagle and buff all melee weapons not just what's in your right hand. Kodius replied at the time this wasn't feasible. I would like to see a weapon bonus from dragon to whatever melee weapon you are holding in your right AND left hands though.
Good post in general though!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
DRPLAYER1
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/19/2018 04:01 PM CDT
Thanks for the feedback Rhadyn, didn't realize Offhand worked like that. It does seem that they've figured out a work around based on how Oath of the Firstborn (Ranger buff) works. Migrating that functionality to Dragon would be acceptable to me. Essentially, it works like Dragon does but checks both hands and gives two buffs based on held weapons.
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/21/2018 12:18 AM CDT
I'd like to see berserks revisited as a concept. With the migration to 3.0 and the new ability see, we moved away from dancing v. berserking. I think berserks were intended to be a Barb's equivalent of battle spells, but short-duration buffs (at least in magic) have largely proved undesirable. I'm fine with stuff like Earthquake and Volcano being short-duration, but I think stuff like Tornado and Tsunami should last 30+ minutes at cap.
RCHIGHT
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/24/2018 08:54 PM CDT
>I'd like to see berserks revisited as a concept. With the migration to 3.0 and the new ability see, we moved away from dancing v. berserking. I think berserks were intended to be a Barb's equivalent of battle spells, but short-duration buffs (at least in magic) have largely proved undesirable. I'm fine with stuff like Earthquake and Volcano being short-duration, but I think stuff like Tornado and Tsunami should last 30+ minutes at cap.
I think this is a good idea but a "hard row to hoe". Berserks are an instantaneous bonus. Right now I believe they cap at 10 minutes at 1200 IF ranks (I know they are at 9 minutes at 900 IF ranks). This seems pretty comparable across the board to other guilds that are Magic tert.
I'll get behind any boost to our skills, but I need to be realistic as to what I get behind from our skill placement. I'd be happier, myself, with allowing us to stop specific berserks or meditations like we can forms. That would allow us to manage our IF better and be in line with other guilds abilities more.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to see both sides of the issue -- game design/mechanics and player benefits.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
I think this is a good idea but a "hard row to hoe". Berserks are an instantaneous bonus. Right now I believe they cap at 10 minutes at 1200 IF ranks (I know they are at 9 minutes at 900 IF ranks). This seems pretty comparable across the board to other guilds that are Magic tert.
I'll get behind any boost to our skills, but I need to be realistic as to what I get behind from our skill placement. I'd be happier, myself, with allowing us to stop specific berserks or meditations like we can forms. That would allow us to manage our IF better and be in line with other guilds abilities more.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. Just trying to see both sides of the issue -- game design/mechanics and player benefits.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/25/2018 03:25 AM CDT
>I think this is a good idea but a "hard row to hoe". Berserks are an instantaneous bonus. Right now I believe they cap at 10 minutes at 1200 IF ranks (I know they are at 9 minutes at 900 IF ranks). This seems pretty comparable across the board to other guilds that are Magic tert.
Magic skillset placement has nothing to do with max spell duration. All standard buff spells have the same time (10 mins minimum, 40 mins cap) whether it's a tert magic guild like Blur/Claws of the Cougar or a primary magic guild like Minor Physical Protection. All battle spells cap at 10 minutes, regardless of guild. Certainly guilds can get skillset-based perks to reflect mastery of magic, but tert magic ranks aren't worth less than primary magic ranks. 500 primary magic is gonna get a Paladin and a Cleric the same spell durations.
The reason I bring up the possibility of berserks getting reviewed is because Armifer mentioned the possibility of battle spell buffs getting reviewed and possibly having their duration extended. By the same token, I think many berserks could qualify for the same treatment, though they would need to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.
Magic skillset placement has nothing to do with max spell duration. All standard buff spells have the same time (10 mins minimum, 40 mins cap) whether it's a tert magic guild like Blur/Claws of the Cougar or a primary magic guild like Minor Physical Protection. All battle spells cap at 10 minutes, regardless of guild. Certainly guilds can get skillset-based perks to reflect mastery of magic, but tert magic ranks aren't worth less than primary magic ranks. 500 primary magic is gonna get a Paladin and a Cleric the same spell durations.
The reason I bring up the possibility of berserks getting reviewed is because Armifer mentioned the possibility of battle spell buffs getting reviewed and possibly having their duration extended. By the same token, I think many berserks could qualify for the same treatment, though they would need to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/25/2018 09:21 AM CDT
>>The reason I bring up the possibility of berserks getting reviewed is because Armifer mentioned the possibility of battle spell buffs getting reviewed and possibly having their duration extended.
I meant that I was going to look at making some battle buffs not battle buffs. I'm not changing the duration of things that remain battle spells.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
I meant that I was going to look at making some battle buffs not battle buffs. I'm not changing the duration of things that remain battle spells.
-Armifer
"Perinthia's astronomers are faced with a difficult choice. Either they must admit that all their calculations were wrong ... or else they must reveal that the order of the gods is reflected exactly in the city of monsters." - Italo Calvino
RCHIGHT
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/25/2018 11:54 PM CDT
>Magic skillset placement has nothing to do with max spell duration. All standard buff spells have the same time (10 mins minimum, 40 mins cap)
Barbarian forms can last up to 90 minutes. These are buffs, though thankfully not spells, which don't align to the 40 mins cap. Barbarian abilities do not follow the same rules as magic spells except when it comes to bonus caps (20%). Each one was evaluated based on several factors, including Magic 3.0 design. Additionally, meditations can cap higher than 40 minutes, except Staunch which at a much lower duration.
I'm not getting into the specifics of accuracy of these cap durations in a GvG or NMU vs MU discussion here. I'm saying that way back when, Kodius explained the reasoning for how our abilities work within Magic 3.0 was based on what he could get approval for via review. Us being Magic tert was a factor in that discussion/approval.
Finally, I like your thoughts and am just giving info on the background of why things are the way they are now.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Barbarian forms can last up to 90 minutes. These are buffs, though thankfully not spells, which don't align to the 40 mins cap. Barbarian abilities do not follow the same rules as magic spells except when it comes to bonus caps (20%). Each one was evaluated based on several factors, including Magic 3.0 design. Additionally, meditations can cap higher than 40 minutes, except Staunch which at a much lower duration.
I'm not getting into the specifics of accuracy of these cap durations in a GvG or NMU vs MU discussion here. I'm saying that way back when, Kodius explained the reasoning for how our abilities work within Magic 3.0 was based on what he could get approval for via review. Us being Magic tert was a factor in that discussion/approval.
Finally, I like your thoughts and am just giving info on the background of why things are the way they are now.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
TEQUILASUNRISE
Re: Barbarian QOL
05/26/2018 03:39 PM CDT
>Barbarian forms can last up to 90 minutes
I was not suggesting our abilities have the same duration as mage guilds. Obviously Barbarians are their own cup of tea, as are Thieves, and any comparison to magic isn't going to be 1:1. But I was using Paladins (magic tert) vs. Clerics (magic prime) having the exact same buff lengths to indicate that I don't believe skillset placement has much, if anything, to do with allowable duration of abilities.
>I'm saying that way back when, Kodius explained the reasoning for how our abilities work within Magic 3.0 was based on what he could get approval for via review. Us being Magic tert was a factor in that discussion/approval.
Would you happen to have that post saved somewhere? I thought I had followed all that discussion back in the day, and I would be surprised if I missed something like that.
Just to use random examples, Clerics are survival tertiary, but they have an evasion buff and a spell that attempts to auto-pull from hiding. Barbarians are magic tertiary, but they have the highest number of warding abilities in the game (seven vs. Clerics' six). Skillset placement is an okay general outline of a guild's general focus, but when it comes to whether an ability makes sense, that would be a subjective look at guild lore and guild flavor, and max duration should be a subjective look at how powerful a proposed ability is.
>Finally, I like your thoughts and am just giving info on the background of why things are the way they are now.
Also, you don't need to worry so much about qualifying your statements, I'm always going to assume I'm having a rational, level-headed discussion unless proven otherwise.
I was not suggesting our abilities have the same duration as mage guilds. Obviously Barbarians are their own cup of tea, as are Thieves, and any comparison to magic isn't going to be 1:1. But I was using Paladins (magic tert) vs. Clerics (magic prime) having the exact same buff lengths to indicate that I don't believe skillset placement has much, if anything, to do with allowable duration of abilities.
>I'm saying that way back when, Kodius explained the reasoning for how our abilities work within Magic 3.0 was based on what he could get approval for via review. Us being Magic tert was a factor in that discussion/approval.
Would you happen to have that post saved somewhere? I thought I had followed all that discussion back in the day, and I would be surprised if I missed something like that.
Just to use random examples, Clerics are survival tertiary, but they have an evasion buff and a spell that attempts to auto-pull from hiding. Barbarians are magic tertiary, but they have the highest number of warding abilities in the game (seven vs. Clerics' six). Skillset placement is an okay general outline of a guild's general focus, but when it comes to whether an ability makes sense, that would be a subjective look at guild lore and guild flavor, and max duration should be a subjective look at how powerful a proposed ability is.
>Finally, I like your thoughts and am just giving info on the background of why things are the way they are now.
Also, you don't need to worry so much about qualifying your statements, I'm always going to assume I'm having a rational, level-headed discussion unless proven otherwise.
