It's cool we have a new ability planned, I look forward to checking it out!
We're closing in on calendar year 2019. Now that you have a focus group together, I think it's time to have some difficult conversations regarding the future of Barbarian (and to a lesser extent Thief) development. We've essentially been holding off on these conversations since 3.0 launched because they're tricky, both lore-wise and development-wise.
1) What are we going to do about the huge gap in utility, player choice, and functionality provided by playing a magic-using guild versus a non-magic-using-guild? Particularly with regards to Sorcery, magic items like runestones or scrolls, and magic tattoos?
2) Is it time to rewrite Barb abilities at ground level to work like magic/mana (on the back-end) or should they maintain a snowflake system? All guilds have snowflake systems to an extent but the entire guild being snowflake has been a constant hindrance to Barbarian development, to the extent that critical bugs like being able to learn abilities that do nothing go untouched for years.
3) Should non-TM forms of missile-range supernatural damage be allowed? I imagine these being very limited, like with heavy cooldowns (I'm not eager to return to the days of overpowered stat contests not using ranks dictating PvP), but I am of the personal opinion that this is mandatory to create any sort of parity between magic guilds (or guilds that are magic tertiary) and NMUs (or magic tert guilds). TM is just so versatile, trying to compete with it on a non-damage-playing-field is impossible IMO.
I'm not intending to dictate the conversation's final point, but I think it's time we had some of these conversations. I'm personally getting fatigued of needed development getting kicked down the line because it involves asking difficult questions with answers that might be unpopular with some people.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
SAUVA
Re: SoE Update
12/02/2018 11:12 AM CST
>2) Is it time to rewrite Barb abilities at ground level to work like magic/mana (on the back-end)
Not to "grass is always greener" you to much, but having the majority of your guild's "cool abilities and buffs" driven off a tert skillset is annoying at best (and often just frustrating). I know barb abilities have problems, but be careful what you wish for.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Campaigning for Ranger feats that don't need the magic skillset
Not to "grass is always greener" you to much, but having the majority of your guild's "cool abilities and buffs" driven off a tert skillset is annoying at best (and often just frustrating). I know barb abilities have problems, but be careful what you wish for.
~Hunter Hanryu
>Campaigning for Ranger feats that don't need the magic skillset
ODDPALADIN
Re: SoE Update
12/02/2018 02:57 PM CST
>but having the majority of your guild's "cool abilities and buffs" driven off a tert skillset is annoying at best
Barbarian magic is, basically, magic. The thing that would change is the commodity system. 'Inner Fire' was designed around metrics that Kodius was told the entire game would use, and then did not. So it's punitive and wrong in the current system. It's also not particularly fun to work with, and prevents barbarians from accessing the 'full' magic system, AKA scrolls and magic devices.
Same for thieves. Both guilds have the drawbacks of using tert skills to run abilities, with no perks aside from 'you can't be dispelled'.
Barbarian magic is, basically, magic. The thing that would change is the commodity system. 'Inner Fire' was designed around metrics that Kodius was told the entire game would use, and then did not. So it's punitive and wrong in the current system. It's also not particularly fun to work with, and prevents barbarians from accessing the 'full' magic system, AKA scrolls and magic devices.
Same for thieves. Both guilds have the drawbacks of using tert skills to run abilities, with no perks aside from 'you can't be dispelled'.
FUTILITY
Re: SoE Update
12/02/2018 04:30 PM CST
I mean assuming that TM is still off the table for Thieves and Barbarians -- and I think broadly folks are fine with that -- just use Blindside/Expertise as a stand-in for anything you'd normally use TM for and it should be fine.
Honestly as I think about this I'm not sure I'd keep TM in the game at all. Just have the guild skills stand in for it, that way every guild is always training one key skill at a primary rate.
Honestly as I think about this I'm not sure I'd keep TM in the game at all. Just have the guild skills stand in for it, that way every guild is always training one key skill at a primary rate.
RCHIGHT
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 07:13 PM CST
Kertigen's Beard, have I heard this "Barbarian Magic is, basically, magic" stuff too much or what? No, "Barbarian Magic" is not magic. It doesn't use the same magic system - by design. It doesn't follow the same rules entirely as magic, see forms lasting 90 minutes at max, by design. Does it use skills that are in the magic skillset for contests? Yes. But it IS NOT magic...neither in game play nor in game lore.
Are there drawbacks because development of abilities are difficult since ours don't use core magic code? Sure. But as a DR life long player of a barbarian I rolled up in 1996 I don't feel any need to be a finger waggler tied to finger waggling systems when the one we have is working okay and can work even better with a dedicated GM. I chose the barb guild precisely because I didn't want to have to follow the same rules as MUs.
First they come for your BMR, then they come for your abilities, finally they make you a finger waggler. BAH! No magic or TM for me, that's what I say.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Are there drawbacks because development of abilities are difficult since ours don't use core magic code? Sure. But as a DR life long player of a barbarian I rolled up in 1996 I don't feel any need to be a finger waggler tied to finger waggling systems when the one we have is working okay and can work even better with a dedicated GM. I chose the barb guild precisely because I didn't want to have to follow the same rules as MUs.
First they come for your BMR, then they come for your abilities, finally they make you a finger waggler. BAH! No magic or TM for me, that's what I say.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
RCHIGHT
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 07:15 PM CST
>just use Blindside/Expertise as a stand-in for anything you'd normally use TM for and it should be fine.
This^
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
This^
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
FUTILITY
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 07:53 PM CST
>>Are there drawbacks because development of abilities are difficult since ours don't use core magic code? Sure. But as a DR life long player of a barbarian I rolled up in 1996 I don't feel any need to be a finger waggler tied to finger waggling systems when the one we have is working okay and can work even better with a dedicated GM. I chose the barb guild precisely because I didn't want to have to follow the same rules as MUs.
This kind of attitude is hugely detrimental to the guild, though. Moving Barbarians to be firmly inside of the magic system means we won't need specific dev to add/address our abilities, and when new nice things get built that are on-theme for us, we can be given them without headaches.
Most games explicitly don't separate the abilities into different systems because it actively makes development more difficult, and the odd abilities out will see far less dev attention. As a rule.
Barbarians gain nothing staying outside of the system and lose a ton.
This kind of attitude is hugely detrimental to the guild, though. Moving Barbarians to be firmly inside of the magic system means we won't need specific dev to add/address our abilities, and when new nice things get built that are on-theme for us, we can be given them without headaches.
Most games explicitly don't separate the abilities into different systems because it actively makes development more difficult, and the odd abilities out will see far less dev attention. As a rule.
Barbarians gain nothing staying outside of the system and lose a ton.
ODDPALADIN
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 10:07 PM CST
IIf it uses the core magic calculations it is magic.
I don't care about lore. Mechanics is this conversation. And barbarian magic is magic.
I don't care about lore. Mechanics is this conversation. And barbarian magic is magic.
RCHIGHT
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 11:24 PM CST
> "IIf it uses the core magic calculations it is magic."
Wrong. It doesn't use the core magic calculation that's the point. It isn't "magic".
> "This kind of attitude is hugely detrimental to the guild, though. Moving Barbarians to be firmly inside of the magic system means we won't need specific dev to add/address our abilities, and when new nice things get built that are on-theme for us, we can be given them without headaches."
This^ is the kind of attitude of players who are either primary MU players with a barb sub or, haven't played for a long time as a barb (only since Magic 3.x) or, just don't care about the uniqueness of the barb guild over time or, I don't know what they are thinking.
Based on my discussions with hard core or long term barb is that most of those who have played a barb primary (this is the only char I play fwiw) for over 15+, in my case 20+ years, feel. See the link below my signature. Not once will you find any suggestion that barbs be moved to the magic system over the years. You WILL see lots of great ideas and the primary concern about having an "alpha strike". The TM debate several years back went nowhere because it would mean a move to the core magic system.
I appreciate your opinion and desire to help the guild move foreword...really I do. However, my attitude is also for the best of this, the best, guild, and moving onto the core magic system would make us a lesser guild, not a greater guild. We are magic tert. We would require more ranks in magic now to gain the same abilities as non-magic terts. We would lose any uniqueness. As for me, you can keep your magic. I like my Inner Fire fueled abilities the way they are now over moving to being a Weapon prime MU guild.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
Wrong. It doesn't use the core magic calculation that's the point. It isn't "magic".
> "This kind of attitude is hugely detrimental to the guild, though. Moving Barbarians to be firmly inside of the magic system means we won't need specific dev to add/address our abilities, and when new nice things get built that are on-theme for us, we can be given them without headaches."
This^ is the kind of attitude of players who are either primary MU players with a barb sub or, haven't played for a long time as a barb (only since Magic 3.x) or, just don't care about the uniqueness of the barb guild over time or, I don't know what they are thinking.
Based on my discussions with hard core or long term barb is that most of those who have played a barb primary (this is the only char I play fwiw) for over 15+, in my case 20+ years, feel. See the link below my signature. Not once will you find any suggestion that barbs be moved to the magic system over the years. You WILL see lots of great ideas and the primary concern about having an "alpha strike". The TM debate several years back went nowhere because it would mean a move to the core magic system.
I appreciate your opinion and desire to help the guild move foreword...really I do. However, my attitude is also for the best of this, the best, guild, and moving onto the core magic system would make us a lesser guild, not a greater guild. We are magic tert. We would require more ranks in magic now to gain the same abilities as non-magic terts. We would lose any uniqueness. As for me, you can keep your magic. I like my Inner Fire fueled abilities the way they are now over moving to being a Weapon prime MU guild.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
RCHIGHT
Re: SoE Update
12/05/2018 11:37 PM CST
>> "IIf it uses the core magic calculations it is magic."
>Wrong. It doesn't use the core magic calculation that's the point. It isn't "magic".
Let me be more specific as to what I mean. Barbarian abilities use the SKILL based system similar to magic. Just because a skill is in the "Magic" skill set doesn't mean it is magic. Arcana is a "magic" skill but is based on game play and game lore the knowledge of magic. This is no different than any other non-intrinsic skill meaning it is related to that skill category but not directly part of that skill set. The Expertise skill is a unique skill for Barbarians in the Weapon skill set, however it has it's own specific uses and calculations in the game that aren't related to weapons specifically. All I'm saying is although all STAT/SKILL contests are normalized, the implementation of Barbarians abilities based on the level of specific skills does not follow the same rules as magic users casting spells. I don't have to know my mana type or room level, harness, prep, cast, etc. to get a specific level of effect on myself or on critters. Therefore, Barbarians DO NOT use the core magic mechanics or calculations. If IF was magic I would have to manipulate it just like mana/cambrinth/etc.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
>Wrong. It doesn't use the core magic calculation that's the point. It isn't "magic".
Let me be more specific as to what I mean. Barbarian abilities use the SKILL based system similar to magic. Just because a skill is in the "Magic" skill set doesn't mean it is magic. Arcana is a "magic" skill but is based on game play and game lore the knowledge of magic. This is no different than any other non-intrinsic skill meaning it is related to that skill category but not directly part of that skill set. The Expertise skill is a unique skill for Barbarians in the Weapon skill set, however it has it's own specific uses and calculations in the game that aren't related to weapons specifically. All I'm saying is although all STAT/SKILL contests are normalized, the implementation of Barbarians abilities based on the level of specific skills does not follow the same rules as magic users casting spells. I don't have to know my mana type or room level, harness, prep, cast, etc. to get a specific level of effect on myself or on critters. Therefore, Barbarians DO NOT use the core magic mechanics or calculations. If IF was magic I would have to manipulate it just like mana/cambrinth/etc.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
ODDPALADIN
Re: SoE Update
12/06/2018 12:37 PM CST
AAgain. Barbarian magic uses core magic. It's magic. I don't care about lore. It used a different resource but the same calculations.
In game it can be whatever. But mechanical it's magic.
In game it can be whatever. But mechanical it's magic.
FUTILITY
Re: SoE Update
12/06/2018 03:30 PM CST
>>This^ is the kind of attitude of players who are either primary MU players with a barb sub or, haven't played for a long time as a barb (only since Magic 3.x) or, just don't care about the uniqueness of the barb guild over time or, I don't know what they are thinking.
I have played a Barbarian, as a primary character, since 1997. I happen to think the guild's current situation is untenable. Either Barbarians will be moved into the magic system -- which doesn't mean prep, harness, cast -- or they will become utter also-rans because it will become harder and harder (read: impossible) to justify development time on just Barbarians.
The fact that people who had absolutely no business discussing Barbarian mechanics were the staff's primary points of contact on Barbarian mechanics is a large part of why Barbarians are saddled with a lot of pointless abilities.
Basically every anti-magic ability save Turtle Form is disposable. Serenity has edge case uses (literally edge case, too, as we're talking about cap-busting buffed 1750 magic skills vs.) but in general bleeding IF for a slightly higher chance to damage the potency of a spell is an awful trade off and wouldn't even be considered with a mana-user. Dispel is a waste of IF.
For some reason Barbarians don't have a Skinning buff, which, man I don't even know where to start on that. While I'll admit Outdoorsmanship might be on-theme for Barbarians, it's also a skill nobody should be wasting ability slots on buffing as a Magic tert. There's virtually no point to Athletics after 600 effective ranks and definitely no point after 1000 ranks, so being able to buff it is another "great in theory" ability.
I hate to knock blood staunching but it's so deep that by the time you actually get it you're past the point where anything more than a catastrophic set of bleeding wounds are likely to cause you problems.
I hate that Piranha is so deep while Python is so readily available, when one of the first things new players should be learning is that you don't use parry as a defense, you train it to meet circle requirements. Buffing it is largely beside the point.
Owl Form. So deep. So incomplete. So many things have been said about it at this point that the entire staff has to be aware of the community's feelings on it not providing darkvision. Panther Form is also pointlessly deep to the point where by the time you get it you're probably past the point of needing it if you've trained Stealth despite the pain of low-level Stealth training.
Wolverine Form. Just going to leave that one there.
Roars need more contests, and shouldn't be contesting Willpower at all. A non-magical attack style that uses Discipline Strength Agility would also be a huge step forward (and benefit Thieves as well). A defense style that incorporates none of Int, Wis, Disc to contest would also be appreciated. The only roars 90% of Barbarians are using with any regularity are Everild's Rage, Screech of Madness, Death's Shriek, and Wail of Torment. Death's Embrace has some PVP uses, as does Serpent's Hiss. But Kuniyo's Strike is worthless because by the time you're capable of getting the stun out of it, you will be knocking things back, meaning it's functionally useless unless/until the engagement system sees a lot of changes. Slash the Shadows may be worth having again, but it will be at least 2 months before anyone can tell you because that's how long it will take them to drop an ability to pick it up and test it. Assuming they're Premium. If they're not, it's never going to make the cut after all of the overpriced but mandatory masteries. Most of which should honestly just be built-in in the first place.
Aside from Earthquake not really working correctly, Berserks are the one bright, shiny part of Barbarians. Even though Tornado and Wildfire should be Forms or parts of Forms (like, say, Wildfire in Wolverine). ...and Tsunami should be a direct rip of Resonance with held weapon.
Yeah actually I take that back. Barbarians need a ton of work and staying "special" is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the efforts and acknowledgement by Armifer and Javac that Barbarians need to be in the magic system that's preventing me from unsubbing at this juncture. Paying for a Barbarian is paying to be slapped in the face and told you should be enjoying the abuse because you're paying for it.
I have played a Barbarian, as a primary character, since 1997. I happen to think the guild's current situation is untenable. Either Barbarians will be moved into the magic system -- which doesn't mean prep, harness, cast -- or they will become utter also-rans because it will become harder and harder (read: impossible) to justify development time on just Barbarians.
The fact that people who had absolutely no business discussing Barbarian mechanics were the staff's primary points of contact on Barbarian mechanics is a large part of why Barbarians are saddled with a lot of pointless abilities.
Basically every anti-magic ability save Turtle Form is disposable. Serenity has edge case uses (literally edge case, too, as we're talking about cap-busting buffed 1750 magic skills vs.) but in general bleeding IF for a slightly higher chance to damage the potency of a spell is an awful trade off and wouldn't even be considered with a mana-user. Dispel is a waste of IF.
For some reason Barbarians don't have a Skinning buff, which, man I don't even know where to start on that. While I'll admit Outdoorsmanship might be on-theme for Barbarians, it's also a skill nobody should be wasting ability slots on buffing as a Magic tert. There's virtually no point to Athletics after 600 effective ranks and definitely no point after 1000 ranks, so being able to buff it is another "great in theory" ability.
I hate to knock blood staunching but it's so deep that by the time you actually get it you're past the point where anything more than a catastrophic set of bleeding wounds are likely to cause you problems.
I hate that Piranha is so deep while Python is so readily available, when one of the first things new players should be learning is that you don't use parry as a defense, you train it to meet circle requirements. Buffing it is largely beside the point.
Owl Form. So deep. So incomplete. So many things have been said about it at this point that the entire staff has to be aware of the community's feelings on it not providing darkvision. Panther Form is also pointlessly deep to the point where by the time you get it you're probably past the point of needing it if you've trained Stealth despite the pain of low-level Stealth training.
Wolverine Form. Just going to leave that one there.
Roars need more contests, and shouldn't be contesting Willpower at all. A non-magical attack style that uses Discipline Strength Agility would also be a huge step forward (and benefit Thieves as well). A defense style that incorporates none of Int, Wis, Disc to contest would also be appreciated. The only roars 90% of Barbarians are using with any regularity are Everild's Rage, Screech of Madness, Death's Shriek, and Wail of Torment. Death's Embrace has some PVP uses, as does Serpent's Hiss. But Kuniyo's Strike is worthless because by the time you're capable of getting the stun out of it, you will be knocking things back, meaning it's functionally useless unless/until the engagement system sees a lot of changes. Slash the Shadows may be worth having again, but it will be at least 2 months before anyone can tell you because that's how long it will take them to drop an ability to pick it up and test it. Assuming they're Premium. If they're not, it's never going to make the cut after all of the overpriced but mandatory masteries. Most of which should honestly just be built-in in the first place.
Aside from Earthquake not really working correctly, Berserks are the one bright, shiny part of Barbarians. Even though Tornado and Wildfire should be Forms or parts of Forms (like, say, Wildfire in Wolverine). ...and Tsunami should be a direct rip of Resonance with held weapon.
Yeah actually I take that back. Barbarians need a ton of work and staying "special" is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the efforts and acknowledgement by Armifer and Javac that Barbarians need to be in the magic system that's preventing me from unsubbing at this juncture. Paying for a Barbarian is paying to be slapped in the face and told you should be enjoying the abuse because you're paying for it.
RCHIGHT
Re: SoE Update
12/06/2018 07:26 PM CST
>Futility's post.
I don't find one thing you stated about our specific abilities that I disagree with actually.
If we move to full blown magic system from a code perspective I'll live with it. Or maybe when I retire I'll become a coding GM, only if I can focus 100% time on the Barb guild ;-)
Good discussion both of you. Have a great holiday season!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
I don't find one thing you stated about our specific abilities that I disagree with actually.
If we move to full blown magic system from a code perspective I'll live with it. Or maybe when I retire I'll become a coding GM, only if I can focus 100% time on the Barb guild ;-)
Good discussion both of you. Have a great holiday season!
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
Barbarian Guild Suggestions
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h4L5hAxR1-VLDegDNZBIhGdo5bMgnCtm84Icm2E0utU/edit#gid=0
