Very important, does contemplation buff shield as well as armors, or just brig/plate/leather/chain and augmentation
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DISCOTEQ21
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 04:13 PM CDT
OK its confirmed contemplation does not buff shield, so my question is on Armor.
What does X ranks in an armor do? Does it affect damage absorption at all, or is it all just maneuverability? If I have 100 ranks in Light Armor versus 50 ranks in Light armor, what exactly am I better at? Do ranks in armor skill affect absorption and or protection? Is protection significant to damage reduction in real terms?
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What does X ranks in an armor do? Does it affect damage absorption at all, or is it all just maneuverability? If I have 100 ranks in Light Armor versus 50 ranks in Light armor, what exactly am I better at? Do ranks in armor skill affect absorption and or protection? Is protection significant to damage reduction in real terms?
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VOLCANUS
VOLCANUS
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 04:30 PM CDT
> If I have 100 ranks in Light Armor versus 50 ranks in Light armor, what exactly am I better at? Do ranks in armor skill affect absorption and or protection? Is protection significant to damage reduction in real terms?
Here's my understanding, but I haven't tested... so take it with a grain of salt and understand the numbers are completely made up.
> Protection is flat damage reduced off the attack. So if you have 20 incoming damage, and 9 protection, then you have 11 damage to deal with for barriers and absorption. Protection can reduce the damage to 0, and is marginally affected by armor ranks.
> Absorbtion is a percentage reduction off the attack. So if I have 9 damage coming in and a 14 on the absorption then it may reduce the incoming damage by 30%. So I only have 6 points. This is much more heavily influenced by armor skill.
Wards do their thing to magically (heh) reduce the damage even further. I take hits that remove part of my vitality and the system determines if that means I take physical wounds or status effects.
Armor ranks also work off hindrance to guild/skillset(?) based minimums. So your 100 ranks of light armor may make it easier to hide or block/parry/dodge.
NINEVAH1
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 04:35 PM CDT
Armor ranks effect hinderance and protection. You are aware of how Armor ranks and hinderance works. For protection Armor ranks are compared to the incoming offense (or maybe weapon skill? Kodius can clarify). I'm pretty sure it's binary on the contest, so if you win the contest your armor's protection values are factored in, if you lose then you only use the absorption values for defense.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 05:16 PM CDT
is this last post accurate?
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NINEVAH1
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 05:21 PM CDT
>>is this last post accurate?
The overall idea of how it works is straight from Kodius. The finer details (skill contest and if it's binary) I'm not so sure on. I remember that it works that way because it is the reason I dumped my mammoth bone armor for titanese.
The overall idea of how it works is straight from Kodius. The finer details (skill contest and if it's binary) I'm not so sure on. I remember that it works that way because it is the reason I dumped my mammoth bone armor for titanese.
VOLCANUS
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 05:43 PM CDT
> I'm pretty sure it's binary on the contest, so if you win the contest your armor's protection values are factored in, if you lose then you only use the absorption values for defense.
So I did some digging. Here's what I found.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Armor_inquery_-_07/17/2013_-_19:18
> Armor has two stats - Absorption and protection. Absorb is a static % off all incoming damage. It is only modified slightly by a skill contest of Armor Factor Vs Enemy Offensive Factor. Armor factor is basically Armor skill and a few other modifiers. OF is basically weapon skill and a some other modifiers. Absorb tends to be better at reducing large hits.
> Protection is a flat amount off. It is heavily modified by a skill contest of Armor Factor Vs Enemy Offensive Factor. Protection tends to be better against smaller hits.
> Defense skill reduces the defensive penalty provided by engaging multiple enemies (and being flanked). It is also the skill used to defend against Tactics maneuvers.
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:HP_on_Armor_Terts_-_12/02/2012_-_13:58
> Heh, hinderance can potentially inflict a 90% defensive penalty. This means instead of being hit 1% of the time or less, you'd be hit >90% of the time. Extra damage absoption or no, this will be a BAD THING for armor terts wearing hindering HP.
> Also keep in mind the lack of armor ranks alone will result in the HP acting more like leather to begin with...
https://elanthipedia.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Post:Shield_-_11/21/2012_-_22:55
> 100 hits were directed towards an opponent with the damage randomizer turned off, using a Tier 4 claymore.
> We assume no armor is our 0% baseline.
> First, the numbers with no armor skill -
> Cloth - 18.5% damage reduction Leather - 22.5% damage reduction Chain - 33.0% damage reduction Brigandine - 43.0% damage reduction Plate - 47.0% damage reduction
> Now, numbers with armor skill over what the enemy's offenses are -
> Cloth - 32.8% damage reduction Leather - 37.8% damage reduction Chain - 41.2% damage reduction Brigandine - 51.0% damage reduction Plate - 58.8% damage reduction
> Armor Primes will likely be the only people with Armor ranks == to what they are hunting. That accounts for a nice 10% bonus reduction in damage with the Plate armor.
> Keep in mind that many light hits will be entirely deflected and do no damage because of the enhanced protection. With players taking 100's of light hits during their combat outings, this adds up VERY fast...
> This is also Tier 3 armor. The heavier armors feature even more damage reduction, while not making you invulnerable.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 10:52 PM CDT
Getting off topic, but man oh man do I wish there was some more information/transparancy available to the players here. My barb upgraded his armor about a year ago, and got into stuff that was more protective but also one more tic hindering. I have no idea if the net effect was more 'overall defense' or not.
NINEVAH1
Re: Contemplation
09/24/2015 10:58 PM CDT
>>I have no idea if the net effect was more 'overall defense' or not.
If your armor ranks stay even with your defenses then I'd wager that it was, and if you have enough ranks to work off all the hinderance then I doubt moving one tier up will hurt you much. For my Armor terts I pick armor based on lowest hinderance and most absorption, though.
If your armor ranks stay even with your defenses then I'd wager that it was, and if you have enough ranks to work off all the hinderance then I doubt moving one tier up will hurt you much. For my Armor terts I pick armor based on lowest hinderance and most absorption, though.
SQUANTO
Re: Contemplation
09/25/2015 05:32 AM CDT
I guess the question is: do you notice an improvement on damage reduction with contemplation up as compared to without it up?
"Brace yourselves, Squanto is going to bleh blah fart fart bleh.." -the player of the character formerly known as Pureblade
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RCHIGHT
Re: Contemplation
09/25/2015 09:16 AM CDT
>I guess the question is: do you notice an improvement on damage reduction with contemplation up as compared to without it up?
I, for one, 100% notice a damage reduction with Contemplation. I also notice the Augmentation boost.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
I, for one, 100% notice a damage reduction with Contemplation. I also notice the Augmentation boost.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Contemplation
09/25/2015 10:49 AM CDT
I haven't empirically tested, but my sense is that yes, I get hit less when Contemplation is up. I also seem to get hit less when Tenacity is up, and I'm not sure if that follows?
But as an armor skill buff, it's hard to tell if the decrease in damage taken is due to more armor, potentially reduced hindrance (actually - is hindrance also listed as a range?), etc. I can test my offensive buffing and see a pretty impressive increase in dps, but it's harder to determine defensive buffing, I feel anyway.
But as an armor skill buff, it's hard to tell if the decrease in damage taken is due to more armor, potentially reduced hindrance (actually - is hindrance also listed as a range?), etc. I can test my offensive buffing and see a pretty impressive increase in dps, but it's harder to determine defensive buffing, I feel anyway.
ASHAMAN1
Re: Contemplation
09/25/2015 12:24 PM CDT
Because of the rather large number of variables in DRs damage model it is VERY hard to feel the bonus from armor. That said, I would gladly TAKE an armor rank buff as a Paladin, because more is always better.
Samsaren
Samsaren
DR-KODIUS
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 01:43 AM CDT
>>What does X ranks in an armor do?
When an enemy hits you, armor skill is contested versus their offense. The % by which you win or lose modifies the armor's protection value. Protection is used to bring damage down to 0. Worst-case, you lose about half the armor's value and find it impossible to reduce damage to 0. Best case your armor gets up to a 20% bonus (if I recall correctly).
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
When an enemy hits you, armor skill is contested versus their offense. The % by which you win or lose modifies the armor's protection value. Protection is used to bring damage down to 0. Worst-case, you lose about half the armor's value and find it impossible to reduce damage to 0. Best case your armor gets up to a 20% bonus (if I recall correctly).
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
DR-KODIUS
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 01:45 AM CDT
And yes, I wish more feedback were possible too. I've considered adding it to APPRAISE CRITTER somehow. Just mechanically difficult and easy to overload folks with information.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 12:40 PM CDT
>When an enemy hits you, armor skill is contested versus their offense. The % by which you win or lose modifies the armor's protection value. Protection is used to bring damage down to 0. Worst-case, you lose about half the armor's value and find it impossible to reduce damage to 0. Best case your armor gets up to a 20% bonus (if I recall correctly).
So in the case of YourArmorRanks<TheirOffense, you can go down to a 50% 'total armor defense' and lose all... absorption/protection, whichever reduces damage by a flat amount?
In the case of YourArmorRanks>TheirOffense, you can go up to a 20% increase on your 'total armor defense' and absorption/protection?
Any reason the maximum negative is 50%, but the maximum increase is 20%? How does evasion/hindrance play into this, or is this all after the evasion/parry/shield defensive check?
Is 'armor protection value' a singular value, or is it '(DamageComingToYou - FlatReductionFromArmor)*PercentageReducedByArmor'?
Sorry to be spammy, but as far as game systems go, I have the least understanding of how armor/defenses work.
>And yes, I wish more feedback were possible too. I've considered adding it to APPRAISE CRITTER somehow. Just mechanically difficult and easy to overload folks with information.
Maybe separate the information that is revealed in APPRAISE? I.e., APP CAREFUL gives all information (and is scrolly/spammy). APP OFFENSE tells about the targets offensive capacities vs your armor. APP DEFENSE tells about the critters defensive capacities vs your currently held weapon(s), debil, tm.
BENNETTJ13
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 01:19 PM CDT
I'd love if there were an app careful offense/defense/all option with exp accordingly.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 02:36 PM CDT
Note - the skillcheck only applies to protection. Absorption is static.
The incoming damage has its value reduced by the armor's protection modified by skill. The remainder is then reduced by a % based on absorption. So yes, your formula is more or less representative of what happens.
I also double-checked, and it appears armor low-caps at 10% and high caps at 120%. So having low armor skill is disastrously bad for protection.
Now keep in mind that protection is only half the picture. For some armors absorption is the more important stat. This was done to prevent low-skill from completely sabotaging a player, and to add importance to the armor skill.
Armor as a skillset gets a negative wrap. But it really does matter. It is just difficult to present that as a meaningful way to folks.
Hindrance affects defenses. Lower defenses could mean a little more incoming damage up to the cap.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
The incoming damage has its value reduced by the armor's protection modified by skill. The remainder is then reduced by a % based on absorption. So yes, your formula is more or less representative of what happens.
I also double-checked, and it appears armor low-caps at 10% and high caps at 120%. So having low armor skill is disastrously bad for protection.
Now keep in mind that protection is only half the picture. For some armors absorption is the more important stat. This was done to prevent low-skill from completely sabotaging a player, and to add importance to the armor skill.
Armor as a skillset gets a negative wrap. But it really does matter. It is just difficult to present that as a meaningful way to folks.
Hindrance affects defenses. Lower defenses could mean a little more incoming damage up to the cap.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
BENNETTJ13
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 02:56 PM CDT
Since you are on the topics of armors and percentages, could you better breakdown the way that the way the mixing of armors and skillset placement can negatively affect defenses as a whole? It is my understanding that there is about 97 different formulas there at work to end up killing your character if you don't plan accordingly.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
Monster Elec
You hear the distant echo of a savage Horde snarling in barbaric disapproval of your deeds.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Contemplation
09/26/2015 03:41 PM CDT
>Armor as a skillset gets a negative wrap. But it really does matter. It is just difficult to present that as a meaningful way to folks.
If these armor checks are all happening after whatever damage gets through a Parry/Shield/Evasion check, it seems to me armor as a skillset isn't that weighty - even if your ranks in armor are disastrously low, heavily protective armor is still providing a static reduction. Obviously hindrance matters, but it's still hard to know by how much. It seems like if half the damage application equation is parry/shield/evasion, and a not insignificant portion of the other half is a static value based on armor, then armor ranks are actually fairly weighted against in the total incoming damage accounting.
Depending, of course, on actual numbers.
RCHIGHT
Re: Contemplation
09/28/2015 10:38 AM CDT
> The incoming damage has its value reduced by the armor's protection modified by skill. The remainder is then reduced by a % based on absorption. So yes, your formula is more or less representative of what happens.
The "modified by skill" above is where Contemplation adds its power. Since the meditation directly increases our armor skills (exp mods shows this to be true) we are getting a direct damage reduction after defenses check and prior to damage absorption check. This is a very good thing for people still circling and moving through critter ladders. Between Tenacity, Contemplation, Swan (Or other BMR abilities) and Toad we can greatly reduce if not mitigate completely damage from critters. PVP is a whole different ball of wax.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
The "modified by skill" above is where Contemplation adds its power. Since the meditation directly increases our armor skills (exp mods shows this to be true) we are getting a direct damage reduction after defenses check and prior to damage absorption check. This is a very good thing for people still circling and moving through critter ladders. Between Tenacity, Contemplation, Swan (Or other BMR abilities) and Toad we can greatly reduce if not mitigate completely damage from critters. PVP is a whole different ball of wax.
Rhadyn da Dwarb - Blood for fire!
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Contemplation
09/28/2015 02:32 PM CDT
Oh, certainly - in terms of offensive and defensive buffing, barbarians have a great toolkit at their disposal. I'm glad to finally be able to use the chunk of it I'm able to.
