As I climb in ranks, I am noticing a more and more predominant trend. I guess I should preface this with a little bit of information. I am currently 126th circle.
Strength : 75 Reflex : 75
Agility : 70 Charisma : 75
Discipline : 72 Wisdom : 75
Intelligence : 75 Stamina : 75
Debilitation: 637 41% nearly locked (33/34)
Warding: 689 24% nearly locked (33/34)
When fighting other players, via Tornado and Monkey, my stamina and reflex are constantly buffed. I also run a Bear-boosted turtle form, essentially always.
In my experience, I am never able to disable someone I fight at level, they shrug off every roar, completely resisting even the easy ones, while completely able to disable me. As it stands, especially given what barbarians were grandfathered to at circle 150, I would like to think my applicable ranks are decent for my circle, and for where I hunt, but they just continue to feel useless. As an aside, I utilize both Plunderer's warpaint and a roar helm, to no avail.
I was wondering if anyone else was having a similar experience, again, against people with comparable ranks, that hunt in the range you hunt, not people your circle.
KMORSE
ABSOLON
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 03:23 PM CST
Most PvPers I think stack their stat contests rather than the balanced approach you have taken which would probably account for at least some of what you are seeing.
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KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 03:29 PM CST
>>Most PvPers I think stack their stat contests rather than the balanced approach you have taken which would probably account for at least some of what you are seeing.
The problem is, they manage to stack for multiple offensive contests, and defensive contests, all at once? And, my stats might be even, but I'm pushing 27k total ranks at 126th circle. I would consider myself above the general tdp curve.
JHALIASCLERIC
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 04:13 PM CST
I kind of agree with some of the stat overlaps being an issue. Discipline being involved in both TM and defensive contests, etc. It seems like double dipping on stats that favor mentals, and leads to a lack of variety of training.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 05:32 PM CST
I haven't had a problem roaring people at level at a multitude of levels. I do still feel like the diminishing returns of roars are a little too punitive however.
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CARAAMON
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 05:58 PM CST
>I do still feel like the diminishing returns of roars are a little too punitive however.
According to Kodius, this is handled through the combat core and is no different from spells.
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According to Kodius, this is handled through the combat core and is no different from spells.
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DR-ARMIFER
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 06:26 PM CST
Caveat: Properly written spells. There's possibly a few out there that are doing wacky things and still need to be beat over the head with a club.
-Armifer
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KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/11/2014 06:53 PM CST
>>Caveat: Properly written spells. There's possibly a few out there that are doing wacky things and still need to be beat over the head with a club.
Just a few. Like Halo. Everything Bard CC. Plenty more out there, as well. Those are a story for another day.
Back on track, though, I feel like my stats are not lacking to the point that I should see no success at all, even on people I can thrash readily.
DR-KODIUS
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 12:20 AM CST
On the occasions where players have complained and given me their character name and their opponent's character's name, my reviews have always shown a 15-20% stat deficit that is causing the problem. Coupled that with having 10-20% more ranks, and PvP becomes difficult. This is despite thinking they are "larger" than the enemy...
It would be useful if people could post their stats and the other persons stats, or at least gives names so we can take a peek.
My hands are really tied when it comes to roars. Everything uses a core system, and they are no better/worse than spells for chance of success.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
It would be useful if people could post their stats and the other persons stats, or at least gives names so we can take a peek.
My hands are really tied when it comes to roars. Everything uses a core system, and they are no better/worse than spells for chance of success.
"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts."
- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 06:00 AM CST
>>My hands are really tied when it comes to roars. Everything uses a core system, and they are no better/worse than spells for chance of success.
My problem with this statement: Spell contests are weighted to the attacker, initially, and can be even further as more mana is put into the spell. At best, it feels like we have a completely unweighted contest. Spell-casters can push through a stat deficit. I have seen it, plenty of times. We cannot.
DISCOTEQ21
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 06:49 AM CST
KMorse I might be able to help shoot me an email or aim me or find me in game I'm not sure why roars are doing this for you.
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SHADOW7988
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 09:29 AM CST
>My problem with this statement: Spell contests are weighted to the attacker, initially, and can be even further as more mana is put into the spell. At best, it feels like we have a completely unweighted contest. Spell-casters can push through a stat deficit. I have seen it, plenty of times. We cannot.
My experience is far more with khri's trying to debilitate typically just critters, if I'm not successful well, I can't hump more concentration into my khri. I need to find another critter I can also get skills going with, and then get the right mixture for Khri. Only so many critters, blah blah blah. My magic users, I pump in the right amount of mana and it seems like I can get it going in no time (and it seems pretty simple too, not giving much skill learning per use, blast more mana).
Sorry, just felt a little parallel there. Have fun with your roar discussions.
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---
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My experience is far more with khri's trying to debilitate typically just critters, if I'm not successful well, I can't hump more concentration into my khri. I need to find another critter I can also get skills going with, and then get the right mixture for Khri. Only so many critters, blah blah blah. My magic users, I pump in the right amount of mana and it seems like I can get it going in no time (and it seems pretty simple too, not giving much skill learning per use, blast more mana).
Sorry, just felt a little parallel there. Have fun with your roar discussions.
---
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---
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2DUMBARSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 11:53 AM CST
>Most PvPers I think stack their stat contests rather than the balanced approach you have taken which would probably account for at least some of what you are seeing.
I think this is the best explanation. Plus, depending on whom you're fighting, you might be contesting buffed and debuffed stats and other factors (e.g. usually it's harder to land debils when your opponent is dominating you somehow).
Also, although it states on Epedia's contested abilities page that primary, secondary and tertiary stats used in stat contests aren't weighted that much, my experience is a little different. The primary offensive and defensive stats in the contest are significantly more important than the other two. In this era of DR PvP, you're best off keeping relatively balanced stats up to ~100th circle, then focusing on debilitation stats (esp. primary stats) if you want to compete PvP. Anything contesting will is kind of a pain since seemingly everyone and his mother has 100+ disc. That said, cyclone should help if you have it.
>I haven't had a problem roaring people at level at a multitude of levels. I do still feel like the diminishing returns of roars are a little too punitive however.
Similar experience here. I've fought a number of barbs and thieves in 3.0b+ from 50s and 60s in stats up to 100s. The only time they really had any issues landing debils on my characters or others, even when they were significantly less skilled in terms of overall ranks and stats, was in the first few weeks after the ability changes. Hell, I had that problem with my debils, too, since so many contests were shifted from physical to mental stats.
>KMORSE
For whatever it's worth, from here on out, I would ignore stats not used in any contests and pump the contest stats up to 100. Hell, I'd have done it back when everything was around 60, and that goes for PvP and PvE. You still have circle TDPs for about 24 circles so you're in a good place. Also, try roaring when you land a nice stunning hit with your weapon if you can.
I think this is the best explanation. Plus, depending on whom you're fighting, you might be contesting buffed and debuffed stats and other factors (e.g. usually it's harder to land debils when your opponent is dominating you somehow).
Also, although it states on Epedia's contested abilities page that primary, secondary and tertiary stats used in stat contests aren't weighted that much, my experience is a little different. The primary offensive and defensive stats in the contest are significantly more important than the other two. In this era of DR PvP, you're best off keeping relatively balanced stats up to ~100th circle, then focusing on debilitation stats (esp. primary stats) if you want to compete PvP. Anything contesting will is kind of a pain since seemingly everyone and his mother has 100+ disc. That said, cyclone should help if you have it.
>I haven't had a problem roaring people at level at a multitude of levels. I do still feel like the diminishing returns of roars are a little too punitive however.
Similar experience here. I've fought a number of barbs and thieves in 3.0b+ from 50s and 60s in stats up to 100s. The only time they really had any issues landing debils on my characters or others, even when they were significantly less skilled in terms of overall ranks and stats, was in the first few weeks after the ability changes. Hell, I had that problem with my debils, too, since so many contests were shifted from physical to mental stats.
>KMORSE
For whatever it's worth, from here on out, I would ignore stats not used in any contests and pump the contest stats up to 100. Hell, I'd have done it back when everything was around 60, and that goes for PvP and PvE. You still have circle TDPs for about 24 circles so you're in a good place. Also, try roaring when you land a nice stunning hit with your weapon if you can.
DR-ARMIFER
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 12:12 PM CST
Loading the contests (and TM) into mental stats was an attempt to force characters to distinguish between building hit-with-pointy-stick stats and hit-with-pointy-hat stats. I'll admit, though, loading offensive and defensive contest values into the same stats was probably a mistake. Not sure if it's worth the angst to fix at this point, but if we decide it is I could definitely see the contests having fewer, more distinct inputs as a result.
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
-Armifer
"In our days truth is taken to result from the effacing of the living man behind the mathematical structures that think themselves out in him, rather than he be thinking them." - Emmanuel Levinas
KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 01:42 PM CST
>For whatever it's worth, from here on out, I would ignore stats not used in any contests and pump the contest stats up to 100.
Between the various offensive (this is somewhat narrow for me being a barb) and defensive contests, I'm quite sure all stats are used.
The only stats not used in a defensive contest are charisma and strength, and those are the primary and secondary stat in my offensive contest.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 02:45 PM CST
>Loading the contests (and TM) into mental stats was an attempt to force characters to distinguish between building hit-with-pointy-stick stats and hit-with-pointy-hat stats. I'll admit, though, loading offensive and defensive contest values into the same stats was probably a mistake. Not sure if it's worth the angst to fix at this point, but if we decide it is I could definitely see the contests having fewer, more distinct inputs as a result.
I don't think it's a big deal. Nobody seems to have an issue with Agility's role in contests even though agility is the primary stat for finesse and it's still the primary/only weapon accuracy stat to my knowledge (I dunno how/if strength helps). Yeah, finesse is the offensive part of the contest and it's technically supernatural "magic" + pointy sticks but that's splitting hairs. Strength is the power contest stat and weapon damage stat; same applies. Wisdom, intel and disc obviously fall into the "same stat for magical offense and defense" category. Reflex is a passive magic and physical damage save stat, which frankly isn't any better than "same stat for magical offense and defense." Stam falls into the same category as reflex, although in a different way.
Charisma's the only stat some people aren't rushing to train, but it's still among the most important stats for some since it tends to drive guild abilities more than general magic or weapons. All stats matter and, depending on the guild and ability suite, some more than others.
I don't think it's a big deal. Nobody seems to have an issue with Agility's role in contests even though agility is the primary stat for finesse and it's still the primary/only weapon accuracy stat to my knowledge (I dunno how/if strength helps). Yeah, finesse is the offensive part of the contest and it's technically supernatural "magic" + pointy sticks but that's splitting hairs. Strength is the power contest stat and weapon damage stat; same applies. Wisdom, intel and disc obviously fall into the "same stat for magical offense and defense" category. Reflex is a passive magic and physical damage save stat, which frankly isn't any better than "same stat for magical offense and defense." Stam falls into the same category as reflex, although in a different way.
Charisma's the only stat some people aren't rushing to train, but it's still among the most important stats for some since it tends to drive guild abilities more than general magic or weapons. All stats matter and, depending on the guild and ability suite, some more than others.
2DUMBARSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 03:11 PM CST
>Between the various offensive (this is somewhat narrow for me being a barb) and defensive contests, I'm quite sure all stats are used.
>The only stats not used in a defensive contest are charisma and strength, and those are the primary and secondary stat in my offensive contest.
You're right and I wasn't clear. I meant first pick the stats you need to land the debilitations you use or rely on most. That probably means charisma for you.
I woundn't focus on defensive stats until after getting the offensive stats up to snuff because landing debilitations is imperative for offense and defense. For instance, on my paladin I found myself relying heavily on the spirit v. fort contest as I trained post 3.0. Even though my agility and strength were only around 60, I didn't seem to have much trouble hitting things and people at the time or swinging big enough weapons with min RT. I pumped wisdom and stamina (racial benefit) to 100 first, which made it a lot easier to play with people around my skill and the big boys. It also fit my playstyle.
After specializing with my stats, I focused on tailoring the rest to my playstyle through trial and error. For instance, if there was someone I sparred with regularly but couldn't land stun foe on him or her; well, time to bump up charisma or intel. A barb's driving me nuts with shriek; time to train disc or wisdom or intel. You get the idea.
>The only stats not used in a defensive contest are charisma and strength, and those are the primary and secondary stat in my offensive contest.
You're right and I wasn't clear. I meant first pick the stats you need to land the debilitations you use or rely on most. That probably means charisma for you.
I woundn't focus on defensive stats until after getting the offensive stats up to snuff because landing debilitations is imperative for offense and defense. For instance, on my paladin I found myself relying heavily on the spirit v. fort contest as I trained post 3.0. Even though my agility and strength were only around 60, I didn't seem to have much trouble hitting things and people at the time or swinging big enough weapons with min RT. I pumped wisdom and stamina (racial benefit) to 100 first, which made it a lot easier to play with people around my skill and the big boys. It also fit my playstyle.
After specializing with my stats, I focused on tailoring the rest to my playstyle through trial and error. For instance, if there was someone I sparred with regularly but couldn't land stun foe on him or her; well, time to bump up charisma or intel. A barb's driving me nuts with shriek; time to train disc or wisdom or intel. You get the idea.
KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 04:41 PM CST
>>After specializing with my stats
This is somewhat of a problem to me, though. I am roaring with 75 charisma and strength and a (most likely) capped in-SOI strength buff. Given that my augmentation and inner fire are within 40 ranks of my primary weapon, my defenses are all above my primary weapon, I train every single weapon and armor... I am not trained like a normal barbarian.
If I were average, training 4-5 weapons and a couple armors, without the excessive magic, perception, and other things Ive accomplished in my backtraining, I could not see my strength and charisma being much higher than they are now. The stat points I would have to sacrifice elsewhere at that point would be condemning, in order to reach the level you suggest I need to be effective.
Basically, even as over-trained as I am, I am being told that in order to have any degree of success with my roars at all, I need to focus all or nothing, and sacrifice everything else. That seems a bit ridiculous.
ABSOLON
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 04:53 PM CST
I think you're underestimating how much people stack stats. E.g. I am a 104th moon mage, have half your combat ranks, and nowhere near as many tdps, but my stats are nearing yours for a couple of them.
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KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 05:06 PM CST
>>I think you're underestimating how much people stack stats. E.g. I am a 104th moon mage, have half your combat ranks, and nowhere near as many tdps, but my stats are nearing yours for a couple of them.
And youre going to be left extremely vulnerable in a large number of contests, to the point of being steamrolled by other characters in a PvP situation. 3.0 changed the stat dynamic of dragonrealms extensively, putting more weight across the boards in all stats. All stats hold weight for almost every guild, save for the few that have no real use for charisma.
Just because people adhere to a 20 year old philosophy, or rather cling to, does not mean that it is still the best route to remain competitive. You might have some stats near mine, but I bet others are what, 1/3? With fights lasting longer, health pools larger, and diminishing returns on CC, those 70s in your mentals for that MB or Sleep is going to be worthless with 25 stamina behind it.
And all of this just further reinforces the statement I made. If the only way to make roars viable in pvp is to severely sacrifice in other areas, even when excessively over-trained, there is a problem there.
ABSOLON
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 05:25 PM CST
My lowest stat is 38, but that wasnt the point. The point was more that people at your combat ranks likely have 100 in their key stats and around 60 in the others.
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KMORSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 05:51 PM CST
>>My lowest stat is 38, but that wasnt the point. The point was more that people at your combat ranks likely have 100 in their key stats and around 60 in the others.
You making your point makes mine no less valid. Do you frequently pvp with people in your skill bracket? And if so, have you been exposed to a thief, war mage, or paladin pressing the stats you left behind via ambush stun, anther's call, thunderclap, frostbite, halt, or stun foe? By intentionally sacrificing defensive stats, you leave yourself open to be CC'd with little resistance, to max or near max success, allowing them to chip away at you while you're helpless.
I overtrain specifically to prevent stat deficiencies. The fundamental difference, like was stated earlier, is that stuffing more mana into the spell helps bridge that gap for spell users. My fundamental complaint was, and still is, that it feels like we are using a base line contest, unweighted, unlike casters in a weighted contest with the option of feeding more mana into the spell to make up for stat deficiencies. I'm not the only person that's noticed this, and for what it's worth, I have played both a cleric and a moon mage into armadillo range from zero ranks, this isn't my first rodeo.
ABSOLON
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 06:20 PM CST
<<first rodeo
Chillax. Nobody is calling you stupid or anything, so no need to go all defensive. Just pointing out that what you're seeing can likely partly be explained by the stats given that 75 in a stat isn't very large relatively speaking. Its impossible to know for sure unless, as the GM suggested, you post the relevent stats on the other side or at least a name so they can look it up.
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Chillax. Nobody is calling you stupid or anything, so no need to go all defensive. Just pointing out that what you're seeing can likely partly be explained by the stats given that 75 in a stat isn't very large relatively speaking. Its impossible to know for sure unless, as the GM suggested, you post the relevent stats on the other side or at least a name so they can look it up.
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DR-RAESH
Re: Roars as a whole
12/12/2014 08:48 PM CST
SvS as a whole is somewhat more... predictable? (I guess that's a reasonable word for it) than we'd like. This is doubly true when you start getting barriers involved. It's something we're looking at.
-Raesh
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2DUMBARSE
Re: Roars as a whole
12/13/2014 12:13 PM CST
>Guild v. Guild stuff
I know this has been revisited a million and a half times, but aren't supernatural guild abilities cast like capped spells based on skill, all things being equal?
I know this has been revisited a million and a half times, but aren't supernatural guild abilities cast like capped spells based on skill, all things being equal?
JHALIASCLERIC
Roars - Power?
04/17/2015 04:31 PM CDT
I seem to recall Roars being shifted over to Power vs., where Power is Str/Stam/Disc? Is that live for all barb roars?
CARAAMON
Re: Roars - Power?
04/17/2015 04:51 PM CDT
It was talked about for some of the roars, but hasn't been implemented.
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